 and welcome. So glad to have each and every one of you back with us today for another episode of the non-profit show. Today we're going to talk about how you can attract great non-profit staff and Dana Skirlock is here with us director of recruitment with staffing boutique to talk to us about this topic and it's it's one that is timely and it is so very needed Dana. We of course want to remind our viewers and our listeners who we are. Julia Patrick is taking a much much deserved time off. We get to take roles in that so Julia serves as a CEO of the American Non-profit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom non-profit nerd CEO of the Raven Group and honored to be alongside Julia each and every day as the co-host of the non-profit show. We wouldn't be able to do this if it weren't for our amazing presenting sponsors including staffing boutique which Dana is with staffing boutique. I also want to give a shout out to our other partners which include Bloomerang, American Non-profit Academy, fundraising academy at National University, non-profit nerd, your part-time controller and non-profit thought leader. Thank you thank you thank you to all of these amazing companies that lean into all of us our missions our communities to help strengthen what we're here to do. So thank you for all of that and if you missed any of our episodes you know where to find us. Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV as well as Vimeo plus podcast so if you're a podcast listener like I am go ahead and queue up the non-profit show wherever you stream your podcast and Dana I do like to ask our guest are you a podcast listener? You know I've gotten more into them as the years have gone by. I like sort of the like mystery thriller podcast as well as anything industry related you know anything you know recruitment based or HR obviously it's going to be of interest to me but no I think it's a great way to engage with people and it's a fun way to blend the audio and the visual so it's awesome. Yeah I love it and there's a lot of those crime murder mysteries or whatever that I know a lot of people are into but speaking of industry related tell us a little bit Dana about your role as director recruitment at staffing boutique and then of course a little bit about staffing boutique. Absolutely so I'm the director of recruitment at staffing boutique I have been with the firm for about six years but I've been in recruitment in general for almost 13 14 years so Katie and I have worked together for a long time Katie being the CEO of staffing boutique we are a smaller niche staffing firm in the New York City area our main office is in Tribeca but our client base is all over the tri-state area so even as far as you know upstate New York Connecticut New Jersey and of course the five boroughs our focus is on the nonprofit sector exclusively so you know New York City has a high concentration of nonprofits as you head out from the five boroughs obviously that number decreases just because it's just kind of the nature of it we're more congested here and there's just more headquarters of organizations here so the most jobs are here in New York but you'd be surprised there's tons of you know organizations that have their 501c3 status that are outside of New York as well and so we have a really broad client base we do everything from education to social services arts organizations even colleges and universities are technically nonprofits so they fall under our purview as well but we provide full service staffing we've got four staff members we all you know partner with the organizations to identify candidates out in the job market that match what the client is looking for and that could be a temporary job something that's on a consultant basis all the way up through full-time permanent work so whether you're you know an organization that's looking to hire or if you are a candidate that's looking for a new job you know we can provide resources for you so much and I and I have to say staffing fatigue is very active on LinkedIn so make sure you follow Dana and Katie as you mentioned there we have a lot to cover in a short amount of time and this is really about you know like how do we attract that rock star team so let's start off Dana we're not going to start off easy I mean this is like a doozy how can we better realize and understand the wage market and how can we be prepared to go higher yes this is an ongoing issue I think having spoken with people that are in the nonprofit field as well as outside of nonprofit this is something that's been coming up a lot post pandemic the job market and culture has just shifted and a lot of workers are looking for better conditions higher pay they're you know switching into new career paths and so it's just kind of left a lot of industries with a lot of holes that they're trying to fill and I think the question for nonprofits is how do you attract people into a field that is notoriously lower paid than the corporate field that's sort of the mantra that you always hear from candidates or from people in college that are majoring in certain things that they know they're going to go into the nonprofit route is that the idea is like you know going into working for a nonprofit that your pay is going to be less in the corporate world now do we think that that is necessarily a fair paradigm that's something that we have to kind of reconsider and a lot of workers are reconsidering I think the main issue and the thing that I want to help nonprofits with is making sure that they are attracting and retaining top talent so that their missions are being worked on by the best and the brightest that are out there in the industry that are passionate about what they do in order to do that what we found over the past let's say year year and a half since the pandemic hit and people have been back you know working again is that you really do sort of get what you pay for like if you have a position that has been the same salary for the past five years meanwhile inflation and cost of living has grown you're probably not going to attract the same kind of talent than if you're willing to go higher now that may mean going to the board and asking for a higher budget for your department that may mean a complete overhaul and assessment of the organization if you're in sort of like the C-suite leadership reevaluating salaries bringing salaries in line with one another like if you have directors of different departments that are similar size that they're being paid different amounts you know those are the types of issues of equity that a lot of candidates are also looking for organizations to have addressed in bottom out so it's really not I hate to speak about it as like a it's a one you know position thing where it's just like well you have this one job let's think about paying that person more it's really a holistic approach to the entire organization and saying are we paying people our staff members a rate that is commensurate with their skillset their years of experience their years of tenure with this organization and is it a rate that is going to incentivize somebody to stay with us for the long term because obviously turnover causes a lot of um and this is true whether it's a nonprofit or not but turnover causes uh you know a lot of issues in terms of being able to streamline your processes and move forward with your mission and move forward with the organization because you're constantly playing catch up with filling jobs um so I would definitely say that if you have a if you're a hiring manager you run a department or if you're working for an organization and you're trying to fill a position and it's been open several times you've had people come in and you know be in the job for six months and leave and you've had to hire somebody again that those could be the red flags that you're looking for that the position may be just under market in terms of the salary and you know the goal is to retain staff so even if you're paying a little bit more on the onset to hire someone but they stay with you for several years or more that's something that is going to save you money in the long term so again I'm looking sort of at the holistic you know not sort of like the the band-aid over the wound you know open wound kind of thing um well it's good to know we might have to consider going higher and what that looks like and then talk to us about the employee benefits and perks how might we leverage this when it comes to that entire compensation you know package yeah you're absolutely right that there is another component to compensation so we think of compensation as just you know the the hourly rate that you're getting or the annual salary that you're getting and that actually in some cases can be true but in oftentimes candidates are looking for an entire package that supports them as a human being so for example the healthcare package that they're provided um the you know work-life balance that they're looking for does your offer include you know opportunities for remote work um you know do you have unlimited pto these are some of the things that I hear candidates every day asking and inquiring me about certain positions like does this job include xyz and you know we have to go back to the client and kind of say have you thought about these these perks is it something that's already included I was speaking to a candidate the or a client I should say the other day in organization that one of their benefits is that they're somehow with their health insurance they actually cover IVF like in vitro virtualization 100 which is you know a 30 to 40 thousand dollar endeavor so they were saying if you're of like you know childbearing age if you're you know in a family unit where that is something that you may need that could be a huge perk um and so and I've not heard of that I had not either and I was like you know what that's a really good selling point to a lot of candidates that might be looking for something like that or and didn't even know that that existed so I think that that organization has done a great job thinking outside the box you know um and and I think other organizations can take a note from that because a lot of people for the right person obviously IVF is down a catchall for everyone but like that might be something that's going to encourage someone to come on board and stay for a long period of time so I think we have to get creative about some of the the overall perks that we're providing now obviously people remote work people are looking for in spades that's sort of the number one perk that I'm hearing um but there are others beyond just remote work you know whether it's like vacation time summer fridays if you have some sort of amended schedule during slower times of the year um you know holidays that the organization is closed that get extended on to the staff members um you know the healthcare packages reimbursement for commuting that lots there's lots of things that we can think of that will help sweeten the deal to help retain and and attract people maybe not even from the nonprofit sector if you're trying to get somebody that it has corporate skills that would help your organization you know really we're going to have to leverage them in a way that is going to make it competitive with the corporate sector and that's very difficult for some nonprofits to do so I think the for nonprofits I think it's about getting creative with those benefits getting creative and you touched on this just briefly but how we can best offer that flexibility and you're right it comes up in spade which is why we have here remote working options but when I think of flexibility I too Dana think of like the holistic approach really there's so much more to flexibility it could be you know cop time it could be flex schedule there could be so many so many different offerings but if you're hearing this from the candidates I'm curious right like how we can best address this from the nonprofit side talk to us about offering flexible remote working options I think that we're at a stage now where every candidate unless the position is front facing or customer service-based or let's say teaching where you have to do it in person most candidates are looking for those options so I think the shift in the thinking just has to be that this is going to be a given it's not going to be something where we're waiting for the candidate to request it and then if we feel like the person is worth it based on their background we're going to maybe acquiesce and allow them to do it you're probably going to have to advertise the positions with this information and with these benefits up front so thinking about how to structure you know the organization with these types of flexibilities intact so whether that means that there's a permanent remote option where you're you know you have staff that are working two to three days even if it's one day a week you know whatever it is at home or that you're building in sort of like as needed ad hoc days for remote work so if you're telling candidates up front hey you know we're not sort of a micro management environment we want you to do your best work so if you feel like a week based on your workload is going to be served best by being at home for three out of those five days we want to accommodate that so maybe not even putting it in set and stone like that you're doing exactly the same days at home because things change seasons are different what busy seasons are for different organizations ebbs and flows so I also just think keeping that flexible makes sense too but just letting someone know up front hey this you know even in the advertising even in the original the initial phone interview or zoom interview with the person before you even move them to the you know further rounds it helps keep them engaged in the search because the other problem I think with hiring is that a lot of people with an ad on indeed or idealist or what have you you can get a lot of applicants getting the right applicant through the entire process and all the way to the offer stage and having them take the offer and start the job is where we have a lot of drop off with people so you know keeping them engaged from the get go letting them know up front that like we are an organization that has put the worker first that is interested in your work life balance um and really you know selling the job to the to the candidate so you know I've always said this to candidates and depending on the economic situation it doesn't probably always feel this way but an interview is a chance for the organization to interview a candidate to see if they're the right fit for them it's also a chance for the candidate to interview the organization and see if the organization is right fit for them and I think sometimes hiring managers we can forget about that and lose sight of that is that you know we're needing to sell the job to the candidate as much as they're selling their background to us in terms of like when we're in these interviews how we're positioning things how you you know what things you choose to highlight about a job and what things you don't you know I think that as hiring managers we could all do a stronger job of making sure that we're reminding candidates even from the get go with the hiring process what they can look forward to about taking this job and I think that can help keep candidates engaged throughout the recruitment process I would also say just you know the recruitment process in general the more you can truncate it the more likely it is you're able to retain people throughout that process and get the right person because I think what a lot of organizations end up doing is getting busy with other things or they just you know aren't ready to move forward and they post the job and then don't end up hiring the person and you know they lose people along the way because the process takes too long that's another reason why you can have the best benefits in the world and the you know great job description and stuff but if you don't move people through the process quickly enough they get scooped up to other things you know unemployment is low people are switching careers there's a lot of you know different types of opportunities out there there's you know all sorts of new industries cropping up with technology changing all the time so it's just a highly competitive time for to find strong staff and so I think part of offering flexibility within the job itself is coupled well with offering you know a streamlined process with the recruitment that's your best chance at retaining someone tightening that up is important and I'm curious if the personal development training comes up as well right is it important that not only we offer flexibility and remote working but should we also you know wave the flag for personal development training how are you seeing that show up in these conversations Dana yeah that's a great question um over the years one of the the major um things that I've heard from candidates when they are inquiring about a position is is there room for growth what do they do to help develop me you know those are sort of the intangibles that I'll hear a lot from from candidates about moving forward with the search so beyond the compensation we talked about like what is compensation is it just the salary is it the whole package part of compensation I would say is including opportunities for growth within the organization or growth as a as a worker like do you provide them with free classes at the foundation center or do you perhaps send them on to seminars or you know do you um as an organization do you maybe um provide the funding for them to go to fundraising day or you know things where they can network with colleagues and take classes and learn more about their field those are the sort of the intangibles that um a lot of candidates are looking for and may not you know in the midst of like a stressful interview process they may not think to ask in a moment but when I'm speaking to them um as sort of a neutral third party that's something that comes up a lot so thinking about again holistically as an organization how do we keep people engaged with our organization where can we find ways to engage with them for the long term and also helping them develop as as you know staff is only going to help your organization so I think it's it's a win-win situation to start instead of waiting for the workers again to come to them with this idea or waiting for a proactive worker to come with an idea or something that they want to attend although I do think that there's obviously a place for that and and you know any staff member that is going to think proactively like that is great but I also think the onus is on the organization to kind of have those things in mind and maybe that comes down to the director of each individual department to decide or maybe it's an organization wide thing that they provide these development opportunities but that's something that's super attractive to candidates and I think it's something that's fairly simple to implement because we all have colleagues that are within our you know chosen career paths we all have people that we know they're always what's great about especially the technological age with zoom we can have a seminar and a conference very easily so there's tons of opportunities you know used to be you had to go to you know women in developments luncheon not that you shouldn't do that in person now but like these few had to physically go into these places to meet with colleagues and and and hear about what's going on in the industry now we can do it virtually so there's really on a monthly basis you could have you know professional development session for your workers and I think that it just helps keep them engaged and interested it breaks up the monotony of the work that they're doing and again it makes people feel like you're investing as an organization in their development as a person and I think that's something that makes the difference when someone is thinking about whether they should stay or go with an organization and you're right there's so many that are convenient I've seen so many low cost are free access yes you know personal professional development training so I was curious how that's showing up let's talk about this commitment to consistent and fair feedback we don't have too much time and we have a viewer that's written in three questions so we're going to see if we can fit in but let's talk about consistent and fair feedback Dana what can you share with us yeah I mean I would say as a management style a lot of hiring managers may not have thought about or at least from what I'm hearing from candidates as they're coming out of organizations that they never really felt like they knew where they stood with the organization so that's a reason why you have people that might be you know entertaining other offers or you know you're not able to retain staff so having consistent feedback meaning like are you doing a yearly review are you doing a six month review is it consistently happening so that the the worker can always know that it's impending and know when it's going to happen it not be a surprise and it not be something that's inconsistent so that they know where they stand and know where they are excelling for all they know they you know if you're not speaking to them and telling them what you like about the work that they're doing they have no idea and that's something that can be distressing as a as a staff member and I think is as managers we just forget about that because we just are getting bogged down with the day to day and sometimes people do need that like hand out you know white glove service where you're kind of bringing them in emotionally and talking to them about their longevity with the organization and what you you know feel like their strengths are and where they can improve and where you see them in the future it just makes people feel like they there's a strategy there's a there's a through line there's an end a finish line for you know what's going to happen next with their career and I think it kind of ties in with your professional development you know it's hard to do that if you don't even know going into these conferences or these seminars knowing what you need to work on you know so part of it is like assessing the person's work and then maybe suggesting professional development tools to assist them with that you know that's a great way to sort of dovetail them both together but that's again that's a that's an intangible that I hear a lot of candidates say that they're looking for is like I just was working for this place for three years I never really knew if I was doing well or not and you know I would have loved to have more consistent feedback from my from my supervisor again I think that that's it needs to be well thought out but I think that's a simple fix for most hiring managers yeah I think so and you're right I think they're all kind of intertwined with you know I've heard of the stay interviews the personal professional development all that's you know pretty pretty interesting okay let's see if we can get through some of these questions so I'm gonna see what we have here the first one is how can you initiate the issue of salary scale adjustments with a reluctant management you're in a tricky situation I'm sorry no in all in all seriousness I definitely feel for you and I you know I know that this is something that comes up a lot with candidates and I think you know they've done psychological studies and women have more trouble asking for what they're worth and for asking for raises and asking for salary ranges that they feel like may not be that the organization may not be it feel like it's appropriate and their male counterparts parts are comfortable moving forward and asking for those things I think number one we just have to get braver about it um and really you know sit down with the manager ask for feedback on your performance that's another reason why these you know um consistent feedback is very helpful because it helps people track you know should I be asking for a raise right now I don't even know if my manager is happy with my work you know so I think that's something to assess too is like where are you at with the organization the number of years of experience that you have with them what has been the feedback from your hiring manager or your direct supervisor over the years and if you haven't gotten that feedback maybe that's the way to approach the conversation is to start with that um but if you feel that your skills are being underpaid then we have to just get brave about it and speaking directly to our manager and and being very clear and not being afraid to be very clear you know the pandemic I think changed a lot of things I think that people are comfortable with and should be comfortable with direct conversations and reality um and we're dealing with huge amounts of inflation if you are not working at a wage that is livable for you you owe it to yourself and to your family to really you know push to move forward with that and that may mean an uncomfortable conversation but I think that it's it's it's warranted especially if you've evaluated all those other things that we've kind of talked about um but just having a conversation saying I'm looking for x amount in the next let's say six months I know you may not be able to change it now but really for me to continue with this organization I'd be looking to be paying you know this salary going forward and I can probably you know continue on with this for the next six months to a year but you know if it doesn't look like the organization is moving in that direction you know you're going to have to start looking elsewhere and it's a market where top talent you know if you've got skills and you've got good tenure and and and good experience in the field there are other organizations that are out there looking and you should be able to go out and look for those things um maybe asking your supervisor why are they reluctant about it say I you know I every time I've asked about this I sense some reluctance on your part can you tell me some of the factors that are causing that um you know maybe discussing like do you have a system in place for um you know regular raises it sounds like probably they don't which is why they've kind of got this conundrum so that's something else also to talk about when you're interviewing for jobs you know in the corporate world they have some of these structures in place where it's like you know you're getting x amount of a bonus at the end of the year you know that you have a guaranteed raise or at least like if you're performing at a certain level that they have a system in which you get a raise every year nonprofits by and large don't seem to have that and that I think something that's something on the you know organizations and that is part of consistent feedback and professional development that you know we as managers need to work on but you know as the candidate I think we can advocate for those you have to advocate for yourselves ultimately we do and I love that you called out you know women in particular where we I'm part of that group right we often do not advocate for that and I I have to say and brag a little bit because you know find a mentor I have coached so many women because I've been coached how to do it right like I've been coached how to advocate and negotiate and I say find a mentor find a coach um that can help you you know use the word brave I love that like just you know sometimes you have to tap into somebody else's bravery and courage and just just kind of channel that learn into you know lean into into that so um don't be afraid there's you know the worst they can say is no but yeah we can get past that objection too so you are fantastic Dana I know that we've got more questions that have come in I will send those to you so you have them and maybe we can address them and one of our Fridays ask an answer so I'm sorry we didn't get to all of them but Dana Scurlock we are so very fortunate to have you in our sector New York is so very fortunate to have you in their community director of recruitment at staffing boutique check them out check out Katie check out Dana and you said there's five staff there at staffing boutique we've got four now yeah they used to be the two of us for a while and over the past year we've we've added on to new staff members so we're very excited well congratulations on your growth at staffing boutique those of you listening it's staffing boutique.org is their web address and I highly recommend that you also follow them on LinkedIn they're very active Julie and I love seeing what you're up to and we of course are very honored to have your continued support as a presenting sponsor staffing boutique has truly been with us from the very beginning that was March of 2020 so thank you staffing boutique and thank you also to our other presenting sponsors that include the non-profit thought leader national university fundraising academy non-profit nerd your part-time controller american non-profit academy and Bloomerang we're so very honored to have your continued support day in day out so we can have these amazing conversations and Dana we could have talked for much longer I can learn so much from you this is not my main bailiwick and skill set so I really admire that it is yours and staffing boutique is here with that niche non-profit market so that's really important because it is really niched as you said to that non-profit sector so thank you you are very welcome it's our pleasure to support you and we just thank you for all you do in disseminating this information and giving people a platform because we're very passionate and committed to the non-profit sector so it's been great to see your growth as well yeah absolutely well we we do it together right we definitely do it together but for all of you that have joined us today thank you as you can tell Dana is full of so much wisdom and expertise we like to end every episode by first of all inviting you to come back tomorrow because it's not quite done we have two more episodes this week and a whole slew of shows coming up through the remainder of the calendar year and we're working on next year but what we like to remind you as we close every single non-profit show episode is to please stay well so you can continue to do well thank you Dana have a fantastic day