 At Collins Morgan we offer friendly, regulated and ethical advice for anyone living in Scotland. Over the last six years we have helped thousands of Scottish residents become debt free. Our organisation always have your best interests at heart and our advisors are trained to help you in any situation with a range of solutions always available. If you're struggling with debts, act now and call one of our friendly advisors on 0141 2184450. We're on. Today's guest we've got Sandra Leen. Sandra, you're a criminologist and you're here the day you've worked on the Luke Mitchell case for the last 16 years fighting for his freedom. How are you Sandra? Yeah, I'm well thank you. Thanks for giving us the time to come into your house and tell the story. I got, I got told about this case. It was actually last week with a man called Joe Steele who spent 18 years in prison himself. A crime he didn't commit were six murders occurred where six members of the royal family were murdered on a fire. So it was Joe actually mentioned Luke Mitchell and if I'm honest I know Luke as newspapers as monster, evil, stuff like that what I've portrayed. I don't know anything about the case. I actually dipped into it a wee bit and for the last week and you sent me some stuff yourself and there is a question mark for my opinion on the case. And I was just to see if you could shed some light on where it all began for you and why you get involved so much so deeply involved in it. Yeah. If we can go right back to the start, we'll start off with what's your relationship with the Mitchell family? At the time I didn't know them. I didn't know Jody's family, the victim's family. I had no connection with them whatsoever. The reason I got involved in any way, Jody was found behind the high school that my eldest daughter attended. My girls, I have two girls who were around about Jody's age and she was found behind that high school. So we lived locally obviously. The gossip from pretty much the first day was incredible. And I started to think, well, hang on. They've gone after this lad immediately. What if it wasn't him? What if it's actually somebody else? Are my girls safe? And that was what started the whole thing, was their safety. Because it's a very touchy subject, even me shining light on it because of the brutality of the crime. At 16 years, Luke has always protested these innocents. I know a few people in short prison. He doesn't double his door, he's not in protection. But what got it for me and why I wanted someone to come on and speak about it is he actually passed a lie detector in prison to say that he wasn't a murderer and his mum actually passed a lie detector also to say that Luke was actually in her house the night of the crime. And that she didn't dispose of any clothing or cover up anything. Obviously, lie detector tested, you can't use them in court. But for two people to pass, the odds are they're very high, millions to one. I don't know, three, million, four, I don't know what it is. I think it's important as well to realise that neither of them knew in advance what the questions were going to be. They didn't know until the day the guy turned up to do the test. And they were done, I think it was two months apart. So there wasn't even an opportunity for them to discuss potential answers because they had no idea what was going to be asked. Because people can pass tests, we get that. But for two people to pass, the odds are slim. So for me, that's when I started looking at it more. I started speaking to yourself. To dig something up that this is because it's not just affecting yourself, it's a look's mum, a look. You've still got to think about Jo De Jones's family who think they've got a conviction. But if I think personally that there's something not right, then I'm going to shed light on it. I'm going to have someone potentially who may be innocent to be rotting in a cell just protesting his freedom and the reason being is because Joe Steele was prime example. 18 years before he was a beast or a murderer. The guy fought for his innocence. So we'll go right back to the start. We've spoke about your relationship with the Mitchell family but obviously when you started getting deeper into the case, when you first started on it, what was the kind of tell-tale signs that things weren't quite right? Initially, the level of gossip in this area, some of the stories that were coming out supposedly about Luke's family and various bits and pieces, it started to become apparent. There were two things that started to become apparent. The first was that some of this information had to be coming from the police, information about the layout of the family home. Unless it was people who'd been in the family home, where else was that information coming from? And the other was that people were just running with this, the hysteria was incredible. Now, you've got to understand, this is a series of small areas, small communities, interlinked communities. Nothing like that happens here. Everybody says, oh, things like that never happened here. But really, the shock and the disbelief that it could have happened, especially where it happened, it's a little country path. Kids play down there, dog walkers, fishermen. And the whole place was just hysterical. But within that hysteria, it became apparent to me within a couple of weeks that this 14-year-old lad was in the frame. And it seemed like they were just hiding in the grit and that worried me. That really worried me, I thought. Either they caught him red-handed. You know, they've got all this evidence and they've caught him red-handed. There's something a bit strange going on here. How could they possibly know this early that it was definitely him? And that was what started to make me wonder about it. And then, like everybody in the area, I was talking to my friends about it and Luke's mum heard my taking it. I don't know how many people were actually questioning whether they'd gone after the right guy back then. Because it was a blanket belief the boyfriend did it. So she put a note through the door of the place of art, asking if he'd be willing to meet them. The press certainly didn't help because front page, monster, Evo 666, the music's kind of side of things. Nirvana, Slipknot, all the kind of music that people, just because it's music, it's obviously identified to be either crazy or the drink bludder. You know, crazy shitting. That's what I remember. I think one of the interesting things about that is the Marilyn Manson connection and the Black Dalia and all of that. So Luke was, pardon me, obsessed with Manson and he's obsessed with the Black Dalia paintings and he carried out a copycat murder until you look at the evidence. He had one Marilyn Manson CD that was bought after Jodie was murdered because it had Jodie's favourite Manson track on it. That's why he bought it. It came with a bonus DVD, which again was used against him and there was a calendar that somebody had given him that was in the bin. That was his connection to Manson. There was nothing, no evidence ever that he knew anything about the Black Dalia pictures that he'd ever seen them, that he'd ever been able to access them. So this whole story about how he was obsessed with Manson and the Black Dalia and all of that, there's not a single bit of evidence to support it. Were people reading Black, white sticks, mud sticks? If you read that, eventually you're going to read that enough, you're going to believe it. And that's where we need a more accountable media because if people are going to write this rubbish and put it out there, knowing that people are going to believe it, I think it's worth remembering that one day, this could be a memory of their family, that this stuff's getting written about and that people are believing. It's been a bug way in mind, obviously, for all these years. Of course, how long was Luke seeing Jodie for? How long was the relationship going on for? I think they were just about three months. Still early? Sorry? Still early then, still a fresh relationship with their friends before or did they meet at school? They met at school, yeah. They knew of each other prior to that and then they were introduced through a mutual friend and by all accounts just really, really enjoyed each other's company, enjoyed being together. How was Luke's upbringing? How was his upbringing as a kid? He's pretty normal upbringing, his mum and dad split up when he was 10 but on amicable terms. He lived in the sort of leafy suburban area, the slightly posh area around here, went to the local high school, no issues in his childhood. There was a school report that he'd been pulled up for throwing a missile at another student and his mum was called into the school. It was a half-marish bar. But again, this was used after the event. That's about, I think, the only thing in his round. He's not suspended, no dodgy behaviour, no crazy stuff. No, he was doing well in all his classes, he's been the top portion of all his classes. So the evidence against Luke, we had a witness that said the scene looking Jodie on the path at that time, was she getting murdered? Right. This was supposedly an independent witness who was driving around a very sharp bend on the road and saw a girl standing at the entrance to the path and a guy, she reckoned about 10 to 20 yards in the path and it was just a tiny little lane. So she clocks these two people, driving around the sharp bend with two kids in the car and that was the story. She then gives this description that's nothing like Luke or Jodie, absolutely nothing like them. And then the story changes and we end up with an identification. There are a couple of problems with this and I don't, I am not suggesting in any way that the witness herself was dishonest or trying to mislead. Her brother-in-law, we found out later, was in Jodie's grandmother's house the morning after Jodie was found. So Jodie was found around about midnight on June 30th and on the morning of July 1st this lady's brother-in-law was in the granny's house telling her about this sighting, telling the family about this sighting and giving them a description. He was then three days later in Jodie's family's house talking about this description and everything else and he was there when this lady gave her first and second statements. So the idea, she was asked if she knew the Jones family and she said no. But they never followed up on the brother-in-law and the closeness of the relationship with the brother-in-law to the victim's family. So information was getting carried back and forward that can't not have influenced her recall. Similarly, when Luke's house was raided he was taken for the section 14 interview on the 14th of August, so six weeks after the murder. They took a Polaroid picture of him that morning and took it up to this lady and said, is that him? And the following morning pictures of Luke started appearing in the media. These were the first pictures of Luke in the media. Now you can see how closely the two events would reinforce in her mind. But she said she never saw the guy's face. Why were they allowed to release photos? Nothing to stop them. Nothing to stop them from age? Because there was no conviction yet? There was no active proceedings. Age is not actually or it wasn't unlawful to photograph under 16s at the time. Does that change now? I don't think so. I think it's more frowned upon. Because I read stories that they can't show their identity because they're younger. So, yeah, and those DNA found at the body five pieces of DNA, am I correct? There were five unidentified profiles either on the clothing, around the body or near the crime scene. So we had Jody's sister's boyfriends DNA profile from her sister's boyfriend found on the t-shirt that Jody was wearing. I'll come back to that. There was a condom found within 20 yards of the body. They never managed to trace the guy at the time who'd left the condom there. Various other deposits that some of which are still unidentified today. The sister's boyfriends DNA I'd never seen anything quite like this. They were waiting for the DNA results to come back to prove their main line of inquiry which of course at the time was that Luke was the killer. And then the DNA came back with nothing of Luke at the scene and nothing of Jody on Luke or in his house or anywhere else. So they're kind of stuck here because the DNA's actually come back identifying another male that's not Luke. And essentially they handed him an innocent explanation. They went back and they said, is it possible that Jody borrowed this t-shirt from her sister and that would explain how her sister's boyfriends DNA got on it? Now you would think under normal circumstances that would be the most bizarre thing to do. Normally some days DNA turns up at the scene of a murder. They've got some explaining to do. Yeah, you're a suspect. But no, they came up with this borrowed t-shirt story to explain away the DNA on the t-shirt. So there was no DNA Luke's DNA there? No. Was Luke with Jody that day? He was with her in school up to lunchtime. But according to Jody's mum she got changed when she came in after school before she went back out again. Because obviously the papers have got a lot of weird stuff about Luke saying he had an appropriate relationship with his mum. They slept in the same bed, stuff like that. What was the story behind that? That was, again, these are the sort of things that were getting leaked either to the media or to the local community. So there was a story that the police had arrived and found Luke and Corrine sleeping in the same bedroom. Now this was just after the Sky interview which was a bit of a trick in itself. Sky had asked if they could interview Luke because he'd been asked to keep away from Jody's funeral by Jody's family. So Sky had asked if they could come and film the tribute that Luke and Corrine were having at home because he couldn't go to the funeral. Both Corrine and Luke have always maintained that they were promised that footage would not go out that day on the day of the funeral and Sky put it out on the day of the funeral. So Corrine has an arm, a protective arm, round Luke's shoulder. While he's being asked questions by a TV reporter that a police officer would have had to ask under caution and from this arm round the shoulder and this rumour about them sleeping in the same bedroom came the story that there was an inappropriate relationship between mother and son. Now just to keep things real, at the same time, exactly the same time that this story about finding them sleeping in the same bedroom broke and in actual fact they were sleeping in the living room on separate couches because Luke was heavily medicated. He was heavily sedated after Jodie's murder and his mum was frightened he would fall down the stairs which is why they just stayed on the ground floor. But at the same time Jodie's brother was sleeping in his mum's bedroom for very similar reasons. So if nightmares are going to come calling, kids are desperately upset, where are they going to go for comfort? Their mum. They're only 14 as well. But again the papers write that stuff and people are just going to think weird bastard, crazy, that's fucked up and automatically they're just going to think guilty. There was boys in a moped around that area at that time as well. That's again one of the most bizarre aspects of this case. On the Friday night, so four days after Jodie's body was found, the police put out an appeal for two youths in a moped. They came forward, one was spoken to on the Saturday, one on the Sunday and they were eliminated from the inquiry by the Monday morning. One of these boys was Jodie's cousin and the other was related slightly more distantly to Jodie's family. They had come through a local tool hair business and up the path on their moped and the moped was seen propped against the v-brake in the wall where Jodie was found behind the v-brake. Moped was there, they were nowhere to be seen at exactly the claimed time in the murder which was 5.15. One of them claimed that they hadn't come forward, they hadn't come forward to the police earlier because Jodie's gran told them not to. I've never seen anything in all these years that says the police went back and said this is what this guy's telling us, is it true? Because if they'd all said no, absolutely not, we said nothing of the sort, he would have been in the frame surely. They also lied about the time they were on the path, they said they were there, I think it was about an hour earlier, then they were actually there. So in advance they'd lied to remove themselves from the path at what later would become the exact time in the murder and these guys weren't suspects. They see people being lying, is that no contempt to a court? Do they not get jailed for that? Well no, they didn't lie in court, they lied to the police when they first came forward because they had to come forward because it had been all over the papers that they were looking for them, they lied then about the time. Now the witnesses in the two higher places, I think it was either five or seven witnesses in the two higher place, they all told the police it was closing time, so around about five o'clock. These lads, when they came forward, gave a time 45 minutes an hour earlier and walked out of the police station without that being checked. It was weeks before the police realised that they'd lied about the time and had to get them back in and speak to them again, but by then the entire investigation was focused on Luke. How long was it after Luke got a charge after the murder? How long? A few months? No, it was nine and a half months. Later to get a charge? Because I know Luke, the dog, was it the dog that found the body or was it Luke that found the body? The dog alerted, so what happened? Jodie's mum texted Luke. It was a text for Jodie, because Jodie's phone wasn't working right. Get yourself home now, that she grounded for a fortnight. So Luke phoned her mum and said, I haven't seen her all night, she never turned up early on. Bit of a tune I'm throwing, and Luke said, right, I'll come up for the new battle end, up the path that she would have used and if I don't find her, I'll come to the house and the adults can decide what happens next. He's left for the new battle end. What he didn't know was that three members of Jodie's family had left from Mayfield, which is where we are now. So the opposite end, making the way towards the path as well. They met Luke at the top of the path and then suggested a double check and they all went back down and the dog alerted just past this feed break in the wall. Luke went over, shouted, I think there's something here. The sister's boyfriend went over and then the granny insisted on being helped over as well so the three of them went over, found the body, all came back over the wall. Luke had already dialed 999 then the police called them back asking where they were. But there was a real misunderstanding there because the police seem to be of the opinion that Luke was the only person out searching. From that, they then drew the conclusion that Luke and Luke alone had found the body and that the three family members had arrived after Luke found the body which that's not what happened and it's really difficult to understand how they came to that conclusion in the first place. When they were called out for the missing person report, when Jodie was reported missing they left her mum's house on the impression that Jodie had left with Luke at tea time from her own house that Luke was the only one out searching and that Luke was coming up the path on his bike. While he was coming up the path with his dog he wasn't the only one out searching and he certainly did not leave Jodie's house with her at tea time but you can understand why the place he would be thinking, hang on he left her at tea time and now he's saying he hasn't seen her come on. And it doesn't look good that he has found the body either because if everybody's searching and the person who has a potential suspect finds the body then everything doesn't matter what kind of evidence you've got the kind that leads to how does he know and any questions marks start arising. You could turn that round though because I said about the sisters boyfriends DNA on the t-shirt. Luke had come up the path and checked it and it was the family search trio one of which was the sisters boyfriend that suggested to go back down. So equally the same it's one of the things about this case is that there are so many people that exactly the same arguments that are made to say it made Luke look bad could be used against other people. So what evidence was there then against Luke that got my conviction? What was the evidence? Well there's no DNA the eyewitness testimonies have been absolutely trashed there were three planks the his alibi they said his brother couldn't support his alibi his mum and his brother had covered up for him the eyewitnesses had positively identified him and I forgot what the third one was now What was his alibi? That he was at home cooking dinner and his brother was there as well? No his brother was working Luke made the dinner for his mum and his brother because he was first in from school a canny bag that alibi other than his mum and his brother to an extent yes because phone calls were made from and received on the landline and we can prove for certain where his mother was and it was not at home and we can prove for certain where his brother was and it was not at home so somebody had to be in the house making calls and receiving calls on that landline so somebody was both at work while he was making phone calls to them in the house yeah his brother called him to say he was going to be late home for his tea and Luke called his mum at work to say what did she want him to put on for dinner was there ever a suspect? not to my knowledge how many suspects were there? just one even with other DNA there there was four unidentified there was only ever one suspect one of the other DNA profiles was identified three years later 2006 the guy's DNA was run through the database for another matter and his story was that he went down the path that night forgive me, he went down the path that night to masturbate because he didn't have any privacy because he shared his room with his brother so he went down gave an estimate of the distance he went down behind the wall did what he did, discarded the condom came back up again and that was the end of it if that account was correct he reckoned it was between 8 and 9 o'clock at night and bearing in mind the time of death was claimed to be 5.15 if that was correct it was broad daylight till about half past 10 that night he would have had to virtually step over the body on the way down and on the way back but because it was three years later there was nothing done about it because the case was closed because Luke Mitchell had been convicted and what's quite terrifying is excuse me this guy lived in a row of houses that look out onto the path and the police search parameters like door-to-door parameters stopped one door away from where this guy lived but they were in his house for a completely different matter two of his brothers had found a hoodie and got it to the attention of police and they still didn't ask about other males in the house or where they've been on it nothing, it just for somebody to do the crime as well and not leave any DNA they're obviously they're quite clued up so for somebody to not have any DNA doing a murder but then have a fucking condom do you know what I mean to do that it would kind of no make sense for me even if they would have no DNA on the body and then we'll basically play with yourself and masturbate into a condom well that's the thing you see we don't know if any of the other was there any Jody's DNA around on the condom or anything they messed up the swabbing on the outer condom so they couldn't get results for that a number of the DNA profiles on the body and the clothing were only partial profiles so they couldn't get full matches to them so it's at least a possibility that there is other DNA there that would match to other people but because the police contaminated the crime scene terribly really really badly a lot of the potential DNA if you like was contaminated but in terms of DNA that could be attributed to Luke because the number of markers that they did get none of these samples they either had DNA that was not in Luke's profile or they had DNA that was common to I don't know 50% of males so could have been in any about any males profile so the lie detector in the prison how did that come about because look I know he's sitting with his eyes closed doing the full because people think he's got his eyes closed he's concentrating if you do a murder and you believe it that long you convince yourself that you've actually not done it how did the lie detector become about and why did the prison let that happen because there's footage on YouTube but we'll put it at the end of this podcast of Luke actually getting the lie detector how did that become about because I've never seen that before we talked about it for a long time Luke had always wanted to do a lie detector so had Corrine and they were just always told it's not admissible as evidence and they didn't really want to do it for evidence they knew it was never going to get in as evidence they wanted to show that they were telling the truth so it took about a year going back and forward with the prison to get agreement that we could do it so the guy called Terry Mullins came up from London and we were allowed into the prison and then we were taken through to basically just a goldfish bowl glass sided and when we got in there Terry got all the stuff set up and there were prison officers walking past outside everybody obviously was dead curious and people pulling faces just trying to put them off really so it was Terry that said to him just shut your eyes just ignore them because I don't want you getting distracted by what's going on outside and that's why I closed his eyes and what was the questions that got asked Luke was asked did he know for certain where Jody's body would be found or where Jody's body was did he stab Jody or harm Jody in any way and forgot what the third question was so the first one to know the body was he says no and that was correct and did they stab or he says no and that was correct and the other one was about Harmina as well what about for the questions for Kareem Kareem was asked if she had ever disposed of any clothing or any other evidence belonging to Luke she was asked if she lied to cover up for him and again I forgot what the third one was I think it was in the house at the time where it was at the time and she passed all three questions because it's brought a lot of misery there's one family devastated they will die with that pain and we spoke about that earlier it's they're going to have to live with that but again for Corrine she's had her caravans burnt down she's she's had a break through the back one screen of her car she's people who have mentally and physically thought so that it's she's been fighting for her son's freedom for 16 years and it's only really yourself and her it's been trying to get she had some light on this and trying to get a retrial because Luke's been trying to get a retrial for and that's the main thing here if the authorities have got nothing to hide if they're absolutely convinced Luke Mitchell's Jodie's murderer let's just see all the evidence we Hillsborough they're an independent panel who were allowed to go in and just look at everything and review it let's see that if the evidence is there so why they're not they kept knocking it back to retry the case and do you think they've made a mistake or do you think because if they know if that comes out that he's innocent that's just going to cause a shit storm for the police the everybody again I'm not professional I'm just here to shed some light on it there's a possibility he could be innocent there's a possibility when two people pass a lie detector but again I'm not professional in this field I'm just here to shed light on it but when you're looking you actually look into it to see there was no DNA there was passing two lie detectors and he's always protested he's innocent he hasn't locked himself away and put himself in protection he's took it in a chin and he's got some amount of abuse in prison and if people think that's a crime then you would act like that if you think someone's murdered a 14 year old kid because that crime alone I've got kids you've got kids yeah and that's one of the things I've been saying for 16 years I don't do any of this to I know there's no avoiding causing more pain for Jodie's family by bringing this up I know that but that's not why I do it I'm always very very mindful as a mum of girls how have you been treated because it's a small area it's a small area everybody talks how have you been treated by working on this case and trying to bring it to light and trying to get look Mitchell free how have you been treated initially it was not great I've been spat on I've been pushed off the pavement in front of the cars I've had death threats the police themselves would stop me in the car at every opportunity they got I never used public transport around about here I'd have to check the headlines to see if it was safe to go into the local shop that that was the extent of the feeling up here and I totally understand it I understand they think or back then they thought I was supporting a monster but my question has always been why would they think I would do that teenage girls in this area if there was the tiniest doubt in my mind that it was Luke Mitchell who did Jody what was done to her why on earth would I be sitting we need this guy back in our community he needs to be set free that would be insanity when was the last time you spoke to Luke about what 2014 and how is he still trying to get a new date in your retrial because I believe he said he's not going to leave prison unless he's a free man he will protest these innocence to the end he will never say did it just to get out or just to get better treatment never if they offer them that yet to admit the crime to let them go they push every year for it don't they every review you you're not addressed your offending behaviour because I've got no offending behaviour to address and round it goes was that did you think there was any other suspects that could potentially have done the crime how many names no names but how many people allegedly that you could think there were certainly three three that I would have said had I been a police officer which I'm not looking at the case and I said we need to look at him we definitely need to look at him and we better get him and see where he was and what he was doing and where he's been since that would have been those three in particular do you ever question yourself and think what if you're wrong and think why the fuck am I going through this every day why am I putting myself through this tournament I don't think you can do this work if you don't ask that question every day what if I'm wrong what what if I've missed something you know what if I don't know what if there's something that they know about that we don't that's why I'm saying if we go for a review and everyone's on the table then everybody knows for sure me included because it's I've gone through everything that's been available to the defence I've also spoken to people who were never spoken to by the defence, by the prosecution back at the time or people who were bullied and harassed at the time who are adults now who have contacted me and said listen I want to tell you this is how we were treated to get us to say what they wanted us to say so in terms of the overview of the incidents and the circumstances and everything else yeah for what we've been allowed access to I would say there's no doubt that Luke did not do this but there's always going to be at the back of your mind what if they've got this they would have used it clearly there's always going to be anything you're doing life but you received files with information on it I got all the case files and that was really when the whole thing for me started to come down like a house of cards there was so much in there the stocky man now this guy was seen following Jody the night she went, the night she was murdered around a bit five o'clock and there were two independent witnesses to stocky man he was never traced, apparently and he was kind of just dropped quietly from the investigation because obviously he couldn't have been Luke so they just didn't go after him 2014 11 years after the murder we find out he was identified at the time was it questioned? no no, after the identification it was just filed so why would do not follow up this evidence in these suspects was a case of before it was Luke they had enough evidence to say that there was eyewitnesses there and there was witnesses to say that they'd seen them at that time that they didn't even think about anybody else or is it a case of somebody covering something up as a miscarriage of justice where they never found a charge never got a charge for nearly a year they had to get somebody there was a lot of pressure on them personally in your opinion would you think the whole outcome is in this? well to put it bluntly they screwed up from the off literally from the minute Jodie was reported missing it was one blunder after another after another they contaminated the crime scene they let the others how did they contaminate the crime scene? they just climbed over the wall and traped around it and gathered up clothes would that not though if Luke had evidence that could have maybe trampled his evidence as well it could have done but it had been interesting that it managed to lose Luke's evidence but leave other peoples there they they gathered up Jodie's clothes before the forensics people got there they rolled the body onto a plastic sheet before the forensics people got there they cut down overhanging branches so that the videographer could get a better look before forensics got there that's just from the beginning that was the B point which I thought would have been closed off of significance they let the remainder the other three members of the search party go and mingle with other members of the family they took their phones with them they didn't get their phones they didn't take statements from them they didn't get their clothes for forensic testing it was just a shambles from the off and I think the problem there was they realised what a shambles it was they also realised there was no going back and undoing that how could they fix the mess they'd made in the first six hours or so what's the story about the parker jacket oh it's a kind of weird one the claim was that Corrine burned a parker jacket that Luke had been wearing when he committed the murder in a log burner in a back garden so presumably to destroy evidence Corrine's and Luke's take on it is that Luke didn't have a parker jacket prior to the murder the police took all of his clothes on the 4th of July everything apart from what he was standing on on the 4th of July in the first raid so Corrine took him clothes shopping on the wednesday because they had nothing to wear and the parker jacket was bought that day and she handed the receipt to the police because they asked for them so this whole thing about they were looking for a missing parker jacket but Corrine had bought the parker jacket as a replacement for the missing parker jacket which again if you knew your son had murdered somebody in a parker jacket would you stick them back in a parker jacket anyway they came and they took all the ash from the log burner in the back garden which was a wee thing that size took all the ash from it forensically tested all the bricks and everything nothing no evidence of any clothing burnt there no opportunity for her to dispose of ash because the family liaison officer was there from day one to day two the ash had she burned clothing there and then all this nonsense about people seeing look or being claimed to have seen look in a parker jacket used as witness statements that photograph that I was talking about the day after he was taken in on the 14th of august six weeks after the murder the first photograph to appear in the papers and there were dozens of them after that always in the parker jacket so if you ask anybody in this area have you ever seen Luke mention on the parker jacket yeah most of Scotland had the question would be what reason would you have to remember if you knew him, obviously we didn't know so it would have to be afterwards what reason would you have had to remember if you had a parker jacket prior to that and the giveaway on that is the got a witness who did know Luke and brought him in to give evidence against Luke and he said he saw him in a local shop wearing said parker jacket and he was asked what made him notice it was a parker jacket and the guy said oh well it was the murder and everything yes it must have been after the murder then that's the level of what they were calling evidence they were relying on against Luke the whole case was that many witnesses went up to speak against them how many witnesses they have on his side none had any witnesses, no his mum and his brother well his mum and his brother were charged with preventing the course of justice and those charges were only dropped when they were on the sand so they wouldn't allow there were a number of witnesses that the defence wanted to call they were disallowed for one reason or another I can't remember what the expert oh the expert on recall speaking in particular about the lady who very clearly would it be an influence with stories going back and forward with such close proximity to the fact they wouldn't allow him to give evidence because he hadn't examined the lady in question so the fact that we know psychologists know that the impact on recall of additional information that wasn't enough so that was disallowed so see the first nine months before he got his sentence, he got charged were you around then, or was it after when he went to prison no I was involved from September 2003, so 10 weeks after the murder and that's when you got involved how was Luke's mindset then after the murder at all absolutely convinced they would realise they were going after the wrong guy get the act together and actually go and find the person that did this absolutely convinced was there a co-operate with the police and statements and giving everything to keep obviously giving these statements and give them information that they can the whole family were the whole family were the liaison officer was in the house from the 1st of July to the 13th of August because the 2nd raid was the 14th and there's a bit of the interview in the 14th where Luke and his mum are saying to the police officer why didn't Michelle tell us this was going to happen we thought that's what she was there to do we thought she was there to keep us up to date with developments so right up to that point the trust in this liaison officer is there to guide them and help them when in actual fact all she was doing was trying to gather again I'm reluctant to call it evidence she was looking for pieces of information that could be twisted to make the family look weird or yeah did Luke go back to school or anything I know he was banned from he did actually go back for one day initially he was banned from returning to school and of course we did the big media fanfare about it being for safety initially for the safety of the pupils and then realising what they'd done because he hadn't been charged with anything oh for everybody's safety speaking to everybody about appropriate behaviour all this nonsense they let him go back and Corrine got a call from Luke to say he was being kept isolated in the classroom by himself wasn't being taught with the other kids wasn't being allowed to mix with the other kids was basically just being kept in a room in his own so as she went to come out of school there was clearly words and after that he was tutored privately because he couldn't they wouldn't have him back in school it's a weird it's it's a weird situation because it's the the strike detectors think it kind of gets me in like a no DNA was that for the murder we hadn't found no what do you so what's the plan what's the outcome for you now to to get this case are you going to keep working on this case until do you try and get look a retry to get them free as a time you feel like giving up many many have been the times that I've felt like giving up the reason I put the book out is forced to give up so if anything happened to me I don't think that anybody else in Scotland got the level of knowledge of the case that I've got and the idea was put everything I know in there and then if anybody else wants to come along and take over the information's there because my dad died suddenly at 56 and I'm 55 you know if I go and take this with me you want to get all because I know when you got the case files there was a lot of stuff that never got put forward there was a lot of witnesses that never got spoken to what else were any of the case files that you think were, they didn't sit right why was that not used in court why was this covered up oh there was so much stuff well for example the boys in the moped saying that the granny told them I've got the police the thing about the eye witness and the brother-in-law the change in the family stories, Jody's family stories so the three members of the search trail on the path all said for a month in all their statements for a full month that the dog reacted at the wall and looped double back and went through the v-break the sisters boy friend said as an example it's a big dog, it's an Alsatian when it was standing up against the v his head was higher than the bottom of the v so that's quite a quite a vivid description by the time they got to trial the statements started to change after the first month and by the time they got to trial the dog didn't react at all looped just, was walking down the path and poked himself over the wall so then we get the case paper and there's all these statements where the family are saying the dog started going nuts and went over and then they said that he didn't react he showed no emotion and yet in the statements Jody's sister saying I could tell by the panic in his voice that it was something bad his eyes were wider than normal he looked like he was in total shock it's all in there in a retrial could those all statements get used is it a touch of subject? it's difficult because I didn't know when I started this the concept of statements being adopted so unless you agree when you're giving your evidence that what's in the statements correct the statement can be because you can't change your statement at least maybe you're in shock you didn't know what to say people do when can it not be changed, a statement I don't think there's ever a time that a statement can be changed the difficulty is if you've said something in a statement and it's put to you on the stand did you say this and you say oh that's not what I meant and you refuse to accept it so the first statement you can use in court so those statements that you talk about when they were interviewing the witnesses they were never used the first statements no the defence did try to did try to bring them up and say but you said for the first month you were telling the same story as he is do you think they were just wanting then a conviction obviously Jody Jones's family want a conviction but then the police do you think that people were getting they started in their own mind that Luke was because the police were after him for the get go his name was it was fired about from as soon as it happened yes so again people looking at that case are going to find automatically he's guilty so how do we how do you go further from this now how do you what's the plans for you now in Luke's case because if he's to get a retrial you're talking maybe another 3-4 years and has he got a release date yet has he got no he got a minimum 20 years but he won't be eligible for parole because he won't address the offending behaviour he won't participate in any of the training courses or anything because he didn't do it and from my experience of other cases that being the case he won't progress so the 20 year date will come and go and however many years after that will come and go as well if he's going to get anger management and get where he's a high risk to and work on yourself but if he's adamant that it wasn't him then he could have been there for a long time until this eventually gets a retrial how can people buy your book how can people get hold of your book it's on Amazon it's innocence betrayed innocence betrayed and it's available on Amazon and it really does I think the discovery that what's allowed to pass is justice and what's allowed to pass is evidence and what's allowed to pass is fairness in our courts is so poor I'd never have believed it I would never have believed that they can get away with the sort of things they get away with until I saw my own eyes and I'm not asking anybody to take my word for it I'm not just having an open mind the information is there go have a look see how you feel about what you've been told by the media for all these years compared to what they actually knew not necessarily the media but what the authorities actually knew the information they actually had because it's one of these things that kind of makes me laugh people go ah you're only telling one side of the story yeah and what do you think mainstream media has been doing for the last 16 years I always believe there's three sides to our story and I say that there's always both sides so for me personally it's to have an open opinion every situation the reason why is because again Joe Steele 18 years he done 18 years the man and he was innocent and everybody not his family and stuff but if you read the papers then what you read the papers monsters ice cream wars then it's just you're in your mind that he's guilty so it's to keep an open mind and think wait a minute there's a possibility everybody let's face it everybody in prison says they're guilty either innocent but Joe says in my podcast as well if you're really innocent you don't give up some people get their sentences like free fall you're down the line they've kind of adapted they've accepted they don't want to fight no more if you're innocent you don't want to stop them looks one of those boys who don't want to stop them he wants to keep fighting for his innocent again I don't know they feel just to the case but to shed some light on it maybe have an open mind people have an open opinion maybe change their opinion and other people can look at it and maybe get a retrial but again it's going to dig up a lot of because there's never going to be closure for the Jones family I understand and for me to do this is I'm going to get a lot of backlash but for me to be honest with myself and if somebody's there's a possibility somebody's innocent fuck it I'm a man I'm not a coward try a way I'm going to bring it to light and maybe there is a miscarriage just as there and there is a lack of evidence maybe people's tampered with evidence maybe the try I just don't for me it's just to bring it to the surface yeah and that's that really is for nearly 16 years that's all I've been asking is instead of going with this screeching media coverage have a look have a look at what else is there and ask yourself why did you never know that why have I never heard that in 16 years because if I was making it up I'm sure I'd have been sued by now Has nobody ever done that want to do an interview with you Sandra or to tell your story and get it out there mainstream media daily record son the evening news way back in 2007 did an interview that was when I'd written the first book there have been there have been approaches and they've all dropped out at the last minute and I don't know if that's just because they don't want this case getting dug up again they don't there's too much behind the scenes that they don't want coming out now and it's easier just to ignore it it's easier just to make it go away than to risk having somebody like me saying go have a look if you keep chatting the door loud enough then eventually it will open Sandra if you're coming on is there anything you want to finish by is there anything you say before we finish up here that people can look into no I think just like you said have an open mind go back look at what you were fed over all those years and go back and ask yourself what if that was me what if they were saying all that stuff about me or about my son or about my brother or whatever what would you do how would you stop them how do you deal with that because the truth is it could happen to anybody before we finish up what was the one was like told not to cry when I got convicted he was told to show no emotion who says that he's legal team why I think the judges say ahead of verdicts and big cases like that no one's seeing the behaviour everybody's to be quiet but he said himself for years he was damned if he did if he cried it would be in crocodile tears people are going to judge people already had their opinion including myself I had my opinion and I was on that young boy but I do remember the headlines and stuff and I still remember it to this day but again it's to have an open mind that there is always possibilities that people are innocent but there's also possibilities that they could also be guilty so for coming on the day Sandra and telling your story I wish you all the best for the future thanks a lot thank you please make 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