 Hi, this is Hoseb Nibharti and we are here at KubeCon Chicago and today we have with us once again Ramayanger, chief evangelist at Cloud Foundry Foundation. Ram is good to have you again on the show. Hello Swapnel, it's always a pleasure to speak to you. Pleasure is all mine. First of all, we are here at KubeCon. Talk a bit about what is Cloud Foundry Foundation doing at KubeCon? So there's a couple of very interesting projects owned by the foundation for the Kubernetes community. There's obviously a lot of overlap between the bigger themes such as architecting the future, the platform engineering focus and a lot of the simplifying Kubernetes for the end user and the consumer, which Cloud Foundry as you know has always been doing. And so the two projects that we want to place focus on are Cloud Foundry Qorifi, which is a Cloud Foundry abstraction on Kubernetes and Paketo Buildpacks, which are an implementation of the cloud native Buildpacks specification owned by the CNCF. Of course, we have talked about Qorifi in past as well. Talk a bit about how is the project progressing from the technical point of view and then we can also talk about how is the community receiving it. Sure, there's a lot of improvements that the community has built in terms of getting Qorifi closer to engineering teams who want to try it before they actually start to adopt it. A historical problem with Cloud Foundry has always been local installs. So we've now solved that with a very sophisticated local installer where you can get Qorifi running on a client cluster, running locally, get the Cloud Foundry experience for the developer on their laptops, on local installs, on small workloads and things like that. What we're also announcing right now is support for Docker based containers. So if you have a container based workflow existing on your pipeline, you can use Qorifi for the deployment phase and you don't have to limit yourself to using containers or images that were created using Qorifi. It expands to images that are already existing in your container registry and it's a very easy way to fit this into an existing workflow and get more people to try it. And talk about how the community has received the project or adoption. So there's obviously the big vendors that use Cloud Foundry who are reporting a lot of usage and things like that. We're waiting for some news about open source Qorifi becoming part of bigger pipelines but we are starting to see a lot of individuals and hobbyists and some people who are managing fleets for their Kubernetes based deployments starting to use Qorifi and try Qorifi and they're really enjoying the Cloud Foundry experience. Now a lot of people in the community they stop by our booth and keep saying oh I've tried Cloud Foundry in the past. I've loved it. I wish it existed on Kubernetes and you know now we can go to them and say it does and you know show them the project and they're very happy about it. They were getting a lot of attention on that and a lot of awareness is being built for the project that way. Can you also talk about the maturity of Qorifi? Back when we spoke at Amsterdam and Detroit before that we identified a few things that made Qorifi still wait for kind of much broader public adoption. So we were limited in terms of Docker support and we were limited in terms of the local deployment experience. We've solved those two and then I think the big piece that we are working on resolving right now is services. So Qorifi right now can perform very well for like stateless workloads but obviously a lot of workloads in real life are stateful workloads and we're in the process of solving for stateful workloads. So we want to get the services piece on there which will bring a lot more parity with the existing Bosch based or VM based Cloud Foundry experience and you know once the services piece of the puzzle is solved then I think it's going to make Qorifi you know ready for much larger deployments and much more real world sort of deployments. Do you have any time frame for that? Well I'm hoping before Paris but we're definitely optimistic that we'll do it before like. If you look at Cloud Foundry early days you know there are a lot of folks you know they started using it and there are a lot of folks who are still using it. Of course everybody has Kubernetes in mind. What I want to talk about is that how are people transitioning from Cloud Foundry to Kubernetes at the same time where they see that Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes is going to coexist. Some cases they might look at it as replacing so what are you seeing with the existing deployments? So there's two three interesting trends that we are seeing the first one the one that I don't like is when you show them this Qorifi experience a lot of them are like oh this will make my migration to Kubernetes easier from Cloud Foundry so obviously you know we don't like that but if there's something that the community finds is very convenient you know it's still a win for us. The other thing that we are seeing is a lot of people want the Cloud Foundry experience they like it they don't want to move away from it and you know a Kubernetes migration to them means or meant until this point that they let go of the Cloud Foundry experience and so the fact that that is not true makes them very happy and they're very happy to see that there's a project that's addressing a very specific need that they have and so that's been the majority of people that have been you know stopping by and asking us and inquiring about what they can do. I think there's like a last very small niche segment that's you know starting to try Kubernetes through Cloud Foundry for the first time and so like I said it's it's minuscule but it does exist and you know we're optimistic about growing that and preserving that community as well. Sometimes you know it's very easy to write an epic you know technology off you know that hey you know what the days are gone but if you look at you know today also UNIX is there you know mainframe actually runs the whole economy of course Docker containers they are there Linux kernel you know we cannot even say that is literally like baseline for all the technologies open stack you know so Cloud Foundry I see is also one of those technologies of course this is not the shiny object anymore because the new things have come up but you know a lot of companies are still not only relying on it but they're continuing so what kind of you know you see the the market is still there where you can say you know these are the company I mean you can name or not came or industries that will not you know be they need Cloud Foundry. So we're seeing a lot of large development shops that have small ops teams continue to function with Cloud Foundry. There was a set of people who were working at a major tractor vendor without naming a name and they said you know they were extremely happy about Cloud Foundry there's a champion internally who said let's continue to keep the you know Cloud Foundry culture alive and they're only doing Kubernetes for their new applications for now extremely happy looking at Querifi and said that you know this is going to solve my problem that I have and so there's there's all of these people that are just rooted in the Cloud Foundry ecosystem and they want Cloud Foundry for their developers and they don't want to forego that DevX that they've built over so many years and I was quoting to now this is a cube con addition right so around the corner there was a booth and I was quoting to that gentleman that there's just one platform that has really survived the Docker wave and the Kubernetes tsunami that came after that and you know it's it's going to continue to do well I mean like you said we might not be the shiny new thing but we're a thing and I'm happy for that. Okay we have talked a lot about past right now Cloud Foundry deployments for their blah blah blah I know that but let's also look at the market dynamics change in technology Kubernetes is great it was never meant to be easy you know when I used to talk to the founders were like that was not it was not a technology that was created for it was already being used internally Google and you know it was released for everybody to to use so that was never the goal but sometimes people are getting overwhelmed with the complexity and once again it has nothing to do with Kubernetes complexity that is the nature of the project so do you see a room for when we look at the whole Cloud Foundry experience you know the whole CF push experience where it can kind of bring a kind of breath of relief you know is we talked about that earlier that Cloud Foundry community can learn a lot of things about Kubernetes and Kubernetes can learn a lot of things from the developer experience so let's look at future you know what role can Cloud Foundry play in this ecosystem where people are getting exhausted so the first time I noticed this trend Swapnil was at Amsterdam I think Aparna who's one of the co-chairs she had a keynote talk where she had like a Yelp review of all the different communities capabilities and so simplicity got like a one star and that's the first time I've seen the community admit publicly that this is a complex piece it was never meant to be simple never meant to be easy obviously it's solving a very difficult problem and by nature it's it's it's going to be what it is what I'm seeing in this edition is a lot of people are accepting an opinionated sort of path towards saying okay this is you know a good way to do ingress and load balancing and log monitoring and observability for your clusters and people are happy to start with an opinionated path and so one of the things that we've changed about Cloud Foundry also is we've made it from a more opinionated sort of framework to a much more open and composable framework if you want to kick out our choice of envoy for ingress and pull in Istio for you know one of n reasons you can do that with you know Khurifi right now and so I think the community in general is open to this notion of okay give me an opinionated path I'll try it if I like it I'll stick to it if not you know I'll architect my way around and get a you know path for my developers that's more in tune with our needs and so I think there's a there's an interesting shift there and so that has resulted in a good lesson for the Cloud Foundry community to learn from the Kubernetes community and the Cloud Native community and in turn I think you know all of the learnings of the past 10 years about you know how we built a platform and you know we've tried so many things and failed at so many things and succeeded at so many more things is a huge history lesson for the Cloud Native community about you know how to go about architecting platforms for the future of Cloud Native. Of course there are a lot of things that you cannot talk about because they may be working in the community pipeline but in addition to Khurifi is there any project or idea that you folks are looking at to help the Kubernetes community because the fact is that Kubernetes is not going to be easy it is going to remain complicated only thing we can do is to make it easy for for for customers to deal with that complexity. Yeah so one of the projects that we are heavily invested in is known as Paqueto Buildpacks like I mentioned it's an implementation of the Cloud Native Computing Foundations Buildpacks.io or Cloud Native Buildpacks. So Paqueto is fully open source it's the only fully open source implementation of Buildpacks that's available it's available for a family of languages. Now what Paqueto allows folks to do is build OCI compatible containers out of source code that they give which is the first step of the Heroku experience and the Cloud Foundry experience and things like that so it allows you to create a very homogeneous uniform build process for any technology that you bring. So Buildpacks exist for stuff that's very common like Node.js to something that's very niche and specific as Jupyter Notebooks and everything in between that spectrum is covered so you can have CEC plus plus Rust and what have you to very specific sort of meta Buildpacks that really can do a Node.js front end with a PHP back end and some Java on the side anything right. So Buildpacks is something that we are heavily invested in we're very happy to note the sort of grassroots developer led adoption that it has seen back in Detroit you know Buildpacks was like on the side and just something we thought we'd mentioned but the sheer number of people that came to us and said hey I use Buildpacks and I have these questions and we want to get on the community we want to contribute and things like that has been phenomenal and it's been the volume has you know sort of increased in Amsterdam and at Chicago it's been great so we're feeling a lot of questions increasing the community in a big way for Peketo Buildpacks and you know we're very happy with that. It's a part of the new Cloud Foundry experience but by itself it's a great technology too and we're seeing that for a lot of the other pieces that we're using within Cloud Foundry. So like K-Pack has its own sort of thing and the other CNCF projects that we use have their own sort of thing but then the Buildpacks piece is something that you know we're heavily invested in. There's an upcoming announcement about a new Cloud Foundry member who's joining specifically for Buildpacks and so you'll be happy to hear that and it's impending so. Ram thank you so much for taking time out today and of course talk about Cloud Foundry in the Kubernetes world or Kubernetes in the Cloud Foundry world the way you look at it. Thanks for all the insights and I would love to chat with you again. Sure Sapnel. Thank you for having me. It's great to do this in person not just over tiny zoom windows and such but thank you so much for having me.