 Welcome everybody to another episode of the non-profit show. We have one of the oh geez of guests Steve and Shaddock. It's been too long. Oh my god So we talked Jurt and I talk all the time like one of our favorite things that ever happened Was we had you on and you showed up with a handmade set of like high-tech Goggles that you made because you had written this fabulous book that I still refer to all the time robots make bad fundraisers and I should have gotten it out of my office and brought it into the studio. That's okay. I forgot. It's a fabulous book It's a great lesson on how to Fundraise and what it looks like from the other side of the table and I can't recommend it enough I think it's it's really a topic. No, it's a super cool piece of work I really really love it But today we have Steven back on the nonprofit show to talk about Capital campaigns and this is going to be really an interesting conversation because he's giving us some New research that has been done. And so we're going to really delve into this to understand What what's cooking if we haven't met? I'm Julia Patrick CEO of the American nonprofit Academy Jared Ransom the nonprofit nerd and CEO of the Raven group is off today Again, we have amazing sponsors that have been with us on this journey more than 900 episodes They include Blumerang American nonprofit Academy your part-time controller nonprofit thought leader Fundraising Academy at National University staffing boutique nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk We have we have so many ways you can get to us Steven and get to all of our archives and all this information You can download our super new sexy app Which I just love you can find us on podcast and of course you can watch the broadcast so My favorite thing one of my favorite things is to take if you have a smart TV Just take your remote and speak in and say the nonprofit show and as Jared likes to say We will join you on the sofa and you can watch it. It really works. I've done it. It's amazing. It's really it's kind of scary to me Yeah, I did that Anyway, hey, okay Steven Shattuck director of engagement Which is a great title for you because you my friend are very engaging So I just got to say I try. Yeah, you know you do a beautiful job capital campaign pro Talk to us about what capital campaign pro does. Yeah, we're a we're a consulting agency So we help organizations we steward them through their capital campaigns from the early planning stages of the feasibility process and then on through The solicitation in the public phase and all that good stuff. So if you're considering a capital campaign Check us out because we got a great team of coaches. We were talking about that Julia That's the really the right word for it. We help coach people through it And that's where we did this this awesome research that we're gonna talk about today too. So it's fun You are based in Indiana, which is such an interesting part of our country because it really has led Most people don't know this but Indiana has really led the nation and I would say the world With a lot of non-profit thought leadership technology Yeah, management. I mean the Eli Lilly school IU I mean say no more rings there shout out to your sponsor. Yeah, yeah Blumerangs based there. I mean Stephen Chattuck is based there But do you work with folks throughout the nation? Yeah, absolutely I think we have every state covered at least once and and some Canadian nonprofits too. We love our friends to the north. Yeah Cool. Well, let's get into this research and and have you Maybe first and foremost talk about how you started this let me let me let me back up I want to know like how you conducted the survey. Yeah, why you conducted it and kind of give us the Dynamics and then we have some very specific questions about findings. So yeah back up a little bit Well, you know me You know, I've been on the show talking about the donor retention research that we did at Blumerang And I know they've been back to talk about that, you know, and I do my my giving experiments So research is is always something I'm really interested in and and with capital campaigns. There really was none There's there's a lot of good stuff out there for other disciplines of fundraising You know, there's tons of research on online giving and donor retention like I talked about But capital campaigns, you know, there's a lot of them happening Every single day and and you know all year long and they last multiple years and big organizations are doing them And they're, you know, usually very successful But there wasn't sort of that underlying, you know, here's how most people approach them Here's what works. Here's what doesn't And you know how it is with fundraising There's all kinds of advice and stories and anecdotes and all that is good But we sort of observed that one sort of missing piece, you know, that one leg of the stool that was missing Not even a whole leg. Maybe just it was just a little wobbly like you got to put a couple playing cards under it So that's what we did with the with the research. So we went out and and surveyed As many nonprofits as we could get to respond And we had some great partners. So bloom ring was one of them. They put that word out. That was awesome Others iWave Aspen leadership group And you guys also gave us some shout outs and social media. So thank you for that And basically we asked people Are you in a capital campaign? Did you recently finish a capital campaign or are you thinking about one in the future? And if they fell into one of those three groups We had a specific survey for each of those three cohorts and we got uh to our You know Appreciation a lot of responses in each and we thought well, why don't we publish this? So we asked people Hey, what's driving your campaign? You know, what's your goal if you finished? How did it go? um lots of things with regards to You know, what were some of the benefits of doing the campaign besides just the dollars raised, you know What role did the board and your ceo and ed play? um And then the the biggest thing and we were talking about this before we hit record julia, but like You know the last three years i don't think i have to say we're pretty tough and and and way different than maybe the last 100 years right um and we wanted to know Did that change the way people Are thinking about capital campaigns? So all that is available in the in the full report Lots of really interesting things that surprised us and some that didn't but now we have Sort of that concrete Research there on those aspects. So lots of cool things. You can get it from our website. Just capital campaign dot capital campaign pro dot com slash research And uh, you can dig into them yourself Well, so let's and thank you for for kind of backing up the truck on that because it really was curious as to You know what this was looking like and I think as you know, I mean the old-fashioned garbage in garbage out Right surveys. I mean you got to figure all this stuff out and who you're who you're convening to get the This information and then how you navigate that forward. So let's start off by saying by asking you our capital campaigns even successful Given we're in this marketplace and I use the word marketplace In the sense of historical like historical marketplace. You you said something fascinating You know 100 years of capital campaigns easy in this country 100 years easy Last three years, right? Totally totally different. So what is right like? Well, you know, this is a big endeavor, right? So I think this is a discipline of fundraising that carries with it a very specific type of nervousness like okay This is going to be Two three years Yeah, you know 100 million dollar goal or 10 million, you know and for some organizations a million dollar goal in a capital campaign Is really big. Yeah, and and it's like well if we fail You know, will that be a huge disaster? Will that set us back? Will that be embarrassing? So the the real reason we asked this question was to We crossed our fingers that most people said yes, this would be successful So that we could sort of exert that confidence like no you can do it You know most capital campaigns if you really dedicate yourself And and follow the process, you know, whatever that process is You'll be successful and and that's what we found even in the midst of COVID and then of course this, you know, really tough economy we've been Encountering over the past year or so a vast majority of the people 94 percent who had finished a campaign Said that they considered it a success. So that was really great to see and and upon reflection I don't think I should have been so surprised because You know all other areas of giving, you know in 2020 and 2021 Even though we had a terrible pandemic and we're still in a pandemic in a lot of ways People respond and generously and it seems to be the case that capital campaigns were no exception And maybe we're even better Equipped to sort of capitalize on that that generosity because there's usually a very specific endeavor or project or building You know a very specific need that people can point to so not only were most the people that we asked successful um But the average percentage of the goal raised was way over a hundred percent. It was actually 108 was the average that people said that they had raised of their original goal. So they exceeded it um, which was great and um The real interesting about the thing about this is We we slice and dice the data by size of the organization And small shops which we defined as a million dollars or less in annual revenue And that's just kind of an arbitrary, you know mark that we found small shops are great, you know, they're still awesome They just as successful As sort of the rest of the field. So this is also an area where you know, maybe there's a feeling over too small You know, that's that's for a big university. That's for a big healthcare system Um, not the case again if you really follow through and dedicate yourself to it. There's really no reason why you can't be successful Well, you know, I I'm I'm loving this information because it gives me hope it gives me hope for the ecosystem of What's going on now? and for what Future decisions different boards and fundraising arms of organizations are going to make To go forward So let's talk about this myth and it's the capital campaign cannibalization myth because I am I'm sure you sat on boards too Yes, the the word comes up capital campaign and everybody's like, no, no, we'll lose all of our, you know our Relationships and it'll it'll take everything away You're telling us. I mean, I think you're going to say something different because we have the word myth in there What does this look like? So this is by far the the number one sort of objection you're exactly right to doing a capital campaign and You know talking to the folks at capital campaign pro that have been doing this for many many years even before the founding of the agency This is always the number one thing. Okay. We're thinking about a capital campaign But oh a board member or you know, something the development office or the ed someone Is like well, we could do that But what's the point if the annual fund just you know goes off a cliff and then you know It nets out in the end after four years So we would always tell people We haven't encountered that in our practice And I know other capital campaign consultants say the same thing So despite that there's still this sort of nervousness. So this was actually One thing we wanted to either put to rest Or say, okay, maybe this does happen, but here's what we want to do about it, right? But what we found was really interesting on this So I mentioned before that there were multiple cohorts So their first cohort was people that were just thinking about a campaign So we didn't ask them that because they weren't in a campaign obviously But then the other two people in a campaign now and then the third group people who have finished So the people that are in a campaign we asked them Okay, what has happened to your annual fund? Uh during the campaign And 79% of them said that the annual fund either increased Or stayed the same so only 21% said That it went down So that was really great to see and now there's a lot of reasons why your annual fund can suffer, right? So, you know, if you ignore it during a campaign It's probably gonna suffer, but there doesn't seem to really be any evidence that the capital campaign itself Causes that cannibalization And then for the third group people who have finished a campaign recently We asked them the same question. So during the campaign. So that was wrapped into the 79% But then we asked the people who finished, okay, what has happened in the subsequent kind of post campaign years And only 9% of those people said that the annual fund Is less than it was before they started the campaign So even in those subsequent years after the campaign There doesn't seem to be this this enormous drop off Now if you're listening to this and say well that happened to me Okay, it did happen to some people for sure But that's something you might want to work through like, okay. What was the cause of that? Was the the sort of the um the eye taken off, um, you know things in the annual fund there, but This was something we were very happy to see and and hopefully put the myth to rest That it doesn't have to be that way and in fact most people don't experience that You know, I think that's a uh for capital campaigns that I've been involved with I think that's the success That comes with having that kitchen cabinet or outside people. I don't know if that's how you all Coach or whatever, but it just seems to me that the message is being delivered differently by a bunch of community leaders Who say let's get on and push hard to the end on this one thing And then you have you know, you're your other teams going forward But if you try and take one team and move it to Is right campaign. I I think that's where we get the notion that doesn't work Yeah, absolutely. I think that's it's kind of an interesting thing Let me ask you about this Steven because this is one of those things that um I've just got to believe in my gut that this happened that people were geared up to start a capital campaign And then this pandemic came. I mean you and I over the years have talked about pandemics Unrest to social unrest economic unrest, of course, you know global at global health act, but um What happened like did people say We're going for it or did they like oh no, you know What was actually occurring? Well, I this may be surprising and hopefully won't disappoint you but By and large people didn't put their foot on the brakes for these big campaigns And that's something that you know, we saw at Blumerang in the early days of the pandemic with so many people exactly what you said like Whoa, this is not a good time to ask This may be insensitive But actually it was the opposite It was probably one of the best times in in history and I don't mean to be shrewd about that But people needed help right and if you had a clear case for support a clear need that you could articulate And doing so with a sense of urgency Those are the people who won the last three years And perhaps, you know, those people self selected into our community and then answered the survey But only 27 of people delayed a capital campaign due to covid specifically and then As we were doing the research it was really when this was starting to the the economic fears are starting to crank up So we added that and said hey, you know, is this Looming recession, I don't even know if it's going to be a recession It seems like there's it goes back and forth every day now But only 13 percent said that the economy was going to be something that that delayed the campaign Which that really made me happy because you know And I know you have too, but you know last three years we've been shouting at the rooftops like keep going you You have a case for support. You're a worthy cause Sure people are hurting, but you know, sometimes that's when they're most generous themselves So that was great to see so Yeah, it didn't seem to be a barrier to capital campaigns You know to me when I hear that it seems to me that That's like bold and visionary leadership. Yes Because people saying, you know, like they didn't have this study To refer to right at something in their heart and their soul and their intellect that said hell. No, we're going forward on this Yeah, and we're gonna be bold I think that's a really astute observation that I that hadn't occurred to me But you know that bold leadership and vision is something that is also required for a capital campaign So it you know, they're part and parcel. So it's good that those people, you know We we're gonna build this hundred million dollar center because they're we got kids in need. They're not gonna let you know The possibility of of a recession which may not even happen now stop them. So that was really good to see Yeah, yeah, you know, I think that's one of the beautiful things about the nonprofit sector is that You know, we have conviction Yes, we have conviction about things and I think in the early days of the pandemic You know, there was a clarion call to people that that were would stand up and say If you think things are tough for our our clients our communities They just got a hell of a lot tougher. Right. So so don't pump the brakes because Now we are needed more than ever. I don't care what you're doing Yeah, I mean, yeah, some things are, you know, needed more than others But yeah, we got to buckle up and and and really start looking at this and so Absolutely, you know, and it's an it's an amazing thing to Live through this but I love that you could that you all would study this Because I think you know, when you're in the middle and you're living it It's like one thing but then when you get the feedback Yeah, you start to really look at this. It's remarkable and there will be something else, you know It may be hyper localized like, you know, something happening to your city or town a natural disaster But there will always be something that you could use as an excuse to not move forward But it all boils down to don't decide for your donors They say no Fine, but at least you asked them Right. Don't yeah, I love that Stephen. I've heard you say that before In other ways and and I love that it comes up in every way. Does it it does? I mean, it's it's like one of those things. It's a truism that we need to keep repeating Hey, let's talk about feasibility studies. We don't have a lot of time left But this is one of those things that I've never been involved in the capital campaign Where this wasn't like a major part Yeah, the decision-making process and then ultimately forming the case for support right share with us Yeah learned it is often there, you know, there are some people who skip it and there there can be good reasons But but you know, I think after reading this research there there were so many benefits that we identified To doing the feasibility study that kind of surprised us So it actually the this finding actually didn't come from a direct question We we asked people in a campaign and and then post campaign people What were some of the other benefits? To doing the campaign besides the dollars raised and we gave people kind of a menu and they could they could select Which ones apply to them and we kind of ranked them And so things like, you know, we have stronger relationships with our donors Our internal systems were improved, you know, our team members felt like it was You know learning for them and they felt like it was kind of professional development is the term I was looking for there So we got all those answers And then I was kind of manipulating the data and I thought I wonder if people answered those those benefit questions differently depending on You know goal size did they do a feasibility study and the feasibility study differences Were really clear. So for example, this is just one example, but among people who did a feasibility study 94 of those people said that The major Ancillary benefit to the campaign was stronger major donor relationships And that makes sense because those people are a big part of the feasibility study process, right? You're probably interviewing them asking. Yeah, you're talking to them. So that's a good relationship builder Yeah, but People who didn't do a feasibility study only 66 of them said that their major donor relationships were strengthened So there's you know by about almost a third a big drop off there So that was that was pretty interesting. So That alone is probably worth the the time and effort and cost, you know, there is usually a cost involved for sure But that that can have long tail benefits For as long as that major donor is is with the organization, right? All the way through plan giving perhaps not to be too orbit about it But you know, that's good to have that relationship there and the end of the interesting thing Everybody likes to know about the dollars, but people who did a feasibility study 51 of them Increased their goal. They thought oh, actually we can raise more, right? And you know, most of them did as we said in the beginning um And that's a hair on fire moment for me. Yeah, right Oh my god That's fascinating. That's fascinating. So who doesn't want more money? So over half the goal raised and only 18% did it lower, which isn't necessarily a bad thing You know, that could just be more of a realistic realistic. Yeah. So so many good things there. Um, but you know, we're we're sort of uh We try to be impartial about it, but you know people should do feasibility studies I mean, they're they're there's so much fun stuff that comes out of them. Yeah You know, that's riveting because I think a lot of times people say Well, I mean, I've I've been in these meetings where people are like, we don't need a feasibility study We know what we need right project We know our donors and we know our community. Let's just get out there and start asking Right versus saying You know, what is the perception? How do we go about this? I mean, it's really an interesting thing because to me It we we use the word feasibility study, but it's really market research Yeah, it's i'm i'm the president of the let's rename the feasibility study like association I'm joining. Okay. You're you're gonna be my vp Or i'll be your vp because you brought it up first That'd probably be better. But like we don't do ourselves. It's like plan giving. It's like That's it's we should call it legacy because that's really Yeah, and there's other people talking about that and make that up. But like yeah, these terms We don't do ourselves many good favors, do we? No, I mean, it's it's so brutal and I think too Um, it it makes it more of a transactional, right? I see that thermometer, you know graphic where we fill in with the red Yeah on the billboard outside. Yeah as we go up and it's like versus being a little bit more strategic and understanding Right, you know how we can navigate this and how we can get our communities to To march along with us because these are huge huge To use your word legacy issues because capital campaigns are generally long-term strategic Um Applications to how we serve, right? So, I mean it's not just funding a big checking account Right. I think there's a part of that. I mean, especially sure we're trying to build endowments and down it Yep, because because the east and in and older parts of the midwest endowment has been part of a cultural Yes, in the west. It's not. I mean we're still building infrastructure Yeah, it changes, you know the dynamic but you know, I always always always love talking with you Um, I think you're just one of the brilliant minds and it's really been fun to You know have you here with us yet again? Um, I've got to ask are you going to be doing your giving uh, Tuesday? Well, I think that so uh, the folks at bloom ring are still doing that and they're doing really interesting kind of variations on it So if you don't follow bloom ring, you got to follow them because they're awesome And they're always putting out good stuff But I'm I'm gonna we're gonna do this capital campaign research every year And and you know me I I may come on and surprise you with something that uh, is is totally unrelated here In terms of research because I I love doing this stuff because it's so interesting to find those little nuggets But we're always good for it Well, you know, you you bring us um some new thoughts new ways to look at things. I think um, you've helped us understand that we can become Too emotional and in thinking what we believe is to be true and not really understanding how to look at things differently. So yeah Jared and I are big fans of anything that's data driven in research. So we invite you back on The show it's been far too long. I know Yeah, I'm glad we didn't get to a thousand, but you guys are gonna be there pretty quick here Well, yeah, well, yeah, it's true. It's it's marching along with without us I have to say Stephen Shaddock director of engagement for capital campaign pro check out capital campaign pro dot com A lot of great information. You can access this awesome research And really help you to you and your organization to understand if this is an investment that you want to make Um, and then from there how you're going to make that investment in terms of Time and talent and treasure. It's a it's a heavy lift But um shoot it's an exciting thing. I I've been a part of a couple and wow It's stressful, but it's so it's worth it. Yeah, it really it really is and it's some one of those things that I think Now that we are through This major disruption that we've had. Yeah across the planet in our in our own country It's the discussion is going to start to bubble up. So if you're part of a board or c-suite Leadership and a nonprofit you're going to start to hear this Discussion about capital campaigns more and more and so Yeah, look at the look to our friends at capital campaign pro to learn more about that Again, steven, you know, we talk about you a lot. You are one of the very first people that we spoke to at the dawn of the pandemic And you were like, hey you gals I'll stand behind you. I'll keep going. I love it Thanks every day. It's amazing. I don't know how you do it every day, but I every day on linkedin It's like, oh, that's an amazing guest and I'm listening while I'm making a sandwich or something I love it. Well, thank you Thank you. It's uh, it's sometimes the labor of love, but we learn something new every day and It's genuine. We have genuine interest When you see us and how we talk, um, it's it's it's very very real and Again, thanks to our partners that that make this this possible They include blooming american nonprofit academy your part-time controller nonprofit thought leader fundraising academy at national university staffing boutique non-profit nerd and non-profit tech talk They join us day in and day out It's a small community, but it's a mighty community of thought leaders such as yourself my friend, steven shattuck I do recommend robots make bad fundraiser that book all the time because it's I think a great read and so, um Check that out. I'm sure you can still find it on amazon. Yep. It's there. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's I have bought that book for so many people Yeah, it's cool. It's really great and it's uh I think it's it's just a natural extension of who you are and how you Look at our sector and we are very fortunate to have you in our sector. So thank you steven shattuck Hey, you know every, um Every episode we still end with the sign-off and steven has heard this heard us say this before But it means something different all the time And especially this is a busy week for Thanksgiving and for a lot of family stress and travel stress So I even hear this message differently today as I speak it and it goes like this to stay well So you can do well. Happy Thanksgiving my friend and we'll see you soon. Thanks. See you guys. Bye