 Seems like you're thinking a lot bro. I know man. You're thinking a lot. Yeah, you make me think a lot You got me there You got me there. You got me there Hi My name is Joey Carbstrong. I'm a vegan who has spent the last seven years trying to convince people that animal cruelty is Wrong without as much success as I hoped so I thought I'd try a new completely opposite approach I'd pretend to support animal cruelty and harness the power of reverse psychology This is how it went What's your what's your reasoning towards it? Okay so The reason I don't think animal cruelty is wrong is because We eat the animals Most animals that are treated cruelly Are being eaten? That's number one number two When you look into like the jungle or like the savannah and nature The carnivores, I know like most animals are herbivores, but the carnivorous animals are extremely cruel to their prey So I would say animal cruelty is natural and if it's natural that means that there's nothing wrong with it We eat the animals after so it's okay the other thing is We've been doing it for a long time Okay, and I would also say we need protein would be another one What else do I got everyone does it do you know do you think humans are Made to eat both meat and vegetables Like genetically I don't really know in the same way our gorillas may just eat vegetables like our body I know you can get supplements for eating vegan however Naturally our bodies are made for eating both varieties of vegetables and meat. I mean I Prefer just to only eat animals Yeah Why? Because mainly the reason mainly is because that's how lions eat But humans are made to eat both Like if we were talking in a genetic fashion, I mean I'd eat plants about to survive Uh-huh. Like the survival situation I'd eat plants from what I know The optimal human diet is to have at least some form of meat and 90% vegetables and I'd say maybe 10% me in an optimal human diet Beside my point though. I'm making more of an ethical statement. Yeah, okay You're making more of a biological statement. Yes. I'm saying there's nothing wrong with animal cruelty I want you to prove to me why there is something wrong with it Like I said that as long as you eat them. It's okay. I Think it depends how it's I know the world. That's a really hard one because In my head It depends how the animals treated before you eat it So do you eat animals? Yes. So do you check how every animal was treated before you eat them? Absolutely not Do you eat chickens little chickens as a friend or as a tea? Their little little animal abuses That would grow up to to abuse animals. So basically You eat animals. You don't check how they're treated. So you and statistically most animals are treated truly definitely You're on my side here. You must not think there's anything wrong with it I do think there are things wrong with it by do bad anyway. It would be better if animals had a better life in one kept in Like the statistics show that most are 100% like I know all that would be better, but you still pay for it I know eat it. I know You're opposed to my sign in a way you think there's something wrong with that. I definitely do your actions are in line with my sign I know I know you do something. You're morally against which is support animal cruelty and Most of the animal cruelty on earth. Let's face it. Where's it happening like the human cause cruelty? Yeah, it's happening in Animal product production isn't it most people participate in it so There can't be anything wrong with something that most people participate in is that true no Flavories like for example slavery most people participate in slavery three four hundred years ago, but that was definitely something wrong. Okay So maybe I'm being a bit logically inconsistent there and that was wrong. Yeah, that was wrong. Yeah Okay, very wrong just because everyone's doing it doesn't mean it's okay basically. It's what you said. Yeah, 100% I think it's one of those in my head. I think it's okay to eat me what I think should change is the way The meat production is made a lot of people think that cruelty in the farms is Wrong, right? Yeah, which is why I get a lot of people pissed off with me hypocrites are called them You're saying it's not cruel to kill an animal No, okay, in my opinion, I don't It's a hot. It's a hard one. It's not so if there's an animal there just chillin. Yeah They're kind of like in life actually You're saying I can go up and just kill them as long as they don't feel any suffering And that's not cruel I mean, that's fine. If you give me the permission because I go back to your going back to your point earlier Do you think it's cruel? The point you made earlier about do you think it's cruel if a cat killed a mouse I said um that animals are cruel in nature That's why it's okay Okay, that's what I said. I said lions rip the throat out of antelopes. So why can't I? Rip the throat out of isn't the animal I want. I see a point I might say is it is it cruel because of because they need food But then I can see a point against that as well interesting I need to eat animals Do you think that's true? I don't think I don't could I live really live without eating meat I don't think humans need to eat animals. I think humans can live without easy animals. However, they're like I'll say earlier For an optimal human diet Okay, there is a percentage of me that should be eaten if you found out That we could be at this optimal health or at a be healthy Without eating meat would it then be cruel for me to Eat the animals. Yeah, I mean cruel if I like the taste of cows and I kill them Just because I like the taste tell me And the cows just cold chillin. I mean I'm bad. I'm happy school. It probably is cool Yeah Why because it because it's a selfish indulgence of wanting to eat a cow because it tastes nice The only reason I eat cows is because I like the taste of burgers Yeah, and I know though. It is a definitely a selfish endeavor to eat an animal Because of the taste. I mean, I don't really think that I need to eat meat to survive I'm not out here like a jungle man like with the leaves for my dress costume like Hanging off a tree jumping on birds. I'm really just going in Burger King and buying a burger because I like the taste Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I'm trying to like justify the animal cruelty because if I can't I'll probably have to like stop eating animals or be a complete hypocrite. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a It's a it's a it's a tricky one because you're right like I I do eat it at the moment for the taste That's why I probably eat a lot more meat than I should I probably about 870 80% me because of the taste However, I would me personally I'd never go vegan. I would go down to a a I would go I would reduce my Intake in me and it'd be another selfish reason I'd have I eat to benefit myself as much as possible So I'd have the amount that should benefit my body the most which would be that 10% 90% balance I saw and if you found out that you didn't need that 10% like Some research existed that showed that you're actually wrong Then what is it true that you that if you eat a pure vegan diet You have to have a B12 supplement to sustain it probably I know I know a vegan. I think my my my brother's a vegan He supplements B12 He said to me you shouldn't kill animals to get B12 that it's stupid He basically said to me My dog has B12 in their blood. I wouldn't kill the dog to get B12. I just take a supplement That's what he said to me It may it makes That does that does make sense. I mean I he said that's pretty stupid and crazy They're using an excuse like B12 to kill an animal when you can get it from a supplement What's wrong with supplements? I Mean we take medicine. We do tell me you guys go to the dentist you use technology and I was just like trying to fight him saying no I can only get B12 from killing cows In my head eating animals killing them is cruel however, I think that it's Because in my head, I think it's natural for that to happen in the world Not just in humans in life Even though we can have alternatives to it one one Ha ha Got me there I think I'll be there you got me there Happens in nature, right? Yeah, it's natural. Yeah, what else is natural is everything that's natural good The lion rips the throat out of an antelope. Yeah, that's not true That is not good It is for the lion's sake. It's an antelope for the antelope. It's not for the antelope for the For the lion Yeah, but so the lion survive if the lion ripped your throat out. Yeah, would that be good? It wouldn't be good for me, but it's natural though. It'd be good for the lion though Yeah, it is it is natural though. Yeah, how however if the lion didn't rip anyone's throat out the lion would die and then that would be That would be it's got a pretty good reason to rip throats out. Yeah Yes, do I I Mean Because I'm looking for one I mean Yes, and no so I've got a good justification to act like the lion does Because you said I like I think oh you got me, but it's natural, you know a Lot of things are natural man. Yeah, but however In a if you had to look in the lion's point of view If it didn't rip anyone's throat out that lion would die Yeah, of course either way someone has to die in in that scenario scenario. Yeah, and what about in my scenario here in England? Yes, that that that's the that's the difference because we can eat both and we can survive with like we can survive with just vegetables and Supplements but my My in my probably want to You put it vegetables and Supplements it doesn't sit like it sounds like you want me to eat grass and tablet Well, this is this is it in my it doesn't sound appetizing, but then my brother's like, you know, there's burgers There's ice cream this chocolate. There's vegan burgers. There's all this stuff, you know, and I was like well He had a point He had a point So, yeah, I mean he made it sound better than you did that's for sure. I mean like We eat it for the taste as well 100% like is that we eat it pleasure because it's sensory pleasure, isn't it? Yeah, when I eat a burger I get a taste and I forget about it But why do we get sensory pleasure out of it? I think it's because it's got fat and calories and salt and sugar and the way that we eat our food now It's half a process and yeah, I could eat a bit of chocolate get pleasure Yeah, I mean to be honest, there's a lot of things I can do to get pleasure But when I think about it like I'm gaining I'm getting that pleasure from the demise and suffering of someone else Because I can do something right now to get pleasure like drink some beer I might get a bit of a buzz. So I don't harm anyone. It's a bit of pleasure. No one got hurt But then I think about the cow What they had to go through for that same little bit of a bit of pleasure that Goes away I don't know. Yeah, I think I'm gonna watch it. I'm gonna watch it. Have you seen it? I've just seen it I will watch Dominion. What's Dominion? All right dominion It's an animal rights film that my brother keeps making me try to watch It's Australian based. Where are you from? I'm from London There's another one called land of hope and glory. It's an English based one I think my issue is I don't have enough empathy. I think for animals. I think so. Yeah, I mean they're animals Who gives a shit really like to be honest? Like I generally don't have empathy anyway Like no, no, not really. Why? I don't know. I don't know because it's not me but The only time I can sort of get empathy Is when I imagine if that was me That's the only time I start to go. Well, wait a second If that was me that would be bad, but because it's not me. It's not that bad That's where it's that's how I got empathy Because if I just look at it from my own perspective, it doesn't matter to me a chicken doesn't matter to me Cow doesn't matter to me But if I was that cow and I was terrified and about to die then we'd have a problem Mm-hmm I'm a hypocrite I wouldn't want to dance to me No, no, I don't think anyone wants it done to them including An antelope In a field. No Of course, you wouldn't want to be that animal there But I but even if I was that antelope in a field, I wouldn't want to be there too Of course, however That happens naturally what we do doesn't happen in a natural way I think the way we treat animals when they're alive is very cool. I think the death of the animal In my eyes is different to the way we treat them when they're alive. Do you think we ethically kill animals? Human beings? Do you think you can ethically kill someone if they don't want to die? Find Ethnic It's another thing where you're switching roles You know, I don't want to be murdered Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. I don't want my existence here to be robbed from me Yeah, of course. I don't think anyone wants their existence robbed from them I think that In the world if humans never existed life and then death Would happen no matter what because of life because A life needs to eat another animal We do would you call that and and we do need to eat another animal we do I mean, that's the question isn't it? No, that is the question technically because that's what this is all hinging on Do we need to technically? I mean if we found out we didn't I mean because I know like a lot of people long-term vegans They're kind of rubbing it in my face Technically they're pissing me off Because they are walking examples of why we don't need to do it Technically not technically we don't need to do it Um It seems like you're thinking a lot bro. I know man. You're thinking a lot because you're Yeah, you're making me think a lot. That's a good thing. It's good that you're considering these things Yeah, a hundred percent. It's one of those things where I would In my head, I'd consider eating less not eating Not eating low meat at all because I eat probably 80% meat 90% meat and I think in my eyes that's what's wrong That's what you want. Of course. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't want to say goodbye to a juicy burger either. This is it I mean, I mean But we always look through things through our eyes. That's what I'm saying You're looking at this from your perspective. How's it going to affect you? That's all you're doing right now. Yeah, you're kind of letting the animals in there Yeah, you still want to Kill a bunch of them anyway. This this is it like this much. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, like I said, like I said like I said like It is I want to cut down because I enjoy the taste of meat I I the reason why I couldn't is because I enjoy meat and meat products It's the reason why I could never go to zero meat. There's too many things in my eyes that have Meat slash meat products in it for me to stop You couldn't picture yourself making that big change I I couldn't I could never I don't think I could change to Complete veganism. What if I told you that I've been vegan for nearly nine years? Interesting Yeah, your brother No No, I'm actually a vegan. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That makes sense now Would you have approached a conversation differently if you knew? I Potentially You let your guard down a bit with me, man. Yeah, you thought I was like you a bit. Did you? Yeah, that I was just considering things with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, man. Yeah, I don't know But even still I still do I still Well, no one can force you to do anything. I can only make you think about things. Definitely. Yeah No, no one's can no one's you you control your conscience and what you believe is right and wrong Yeah, and I guess I can only convince you what I think is right in my head Yeah, like we both have different opinions on I mean the animals if they were sitting here And it was we were considering their opinion too Like what would they say to you? Of course they'd say no However, and we would say too bad. Well this I'm not gonna lie like would you say too bad and Yeah, I wouldn't Like a cow's just here licking your Garnet has what's up? No, no, but honestly, yeah, I like like yeah, like did you kill him yourself? Watch your blood sprout of their neck and all that In in in sense to everyday life or just like just have a burger basically you want a burger you kill the cow They don't want to die like we like we talked about. You know, I'd probably find cows hard and I would have chicken And I think they're easy to kill I think in my head the level of intelligence of an animal Ranks highly in my head like I wouldn't the octopus for example because they're smarter. Yes So in in in my It might not be the matter more if you're smarter Yeah, exactly. It might not be the right way to people. I wouldn't ever eat a person Do people matter more if they're smarter? No, okay. No, but um I don't understand it there. No, but I wouldn't ever eat human periods So that I mean like just matter like do they deserve less of a right to exist because they're they're not as smart Lucky's human No provided it's not some war scenario Where you're choosing the genius to survive and continues humanity. I'm just talking about generally If you're not as smart as someone else do you deserve less rights? No But in the animal context you do the intelligence metric Yeah, I guess I do even though they like a chicken can suffer. Yeah Yeah, definitely They experience the world and but they're birds the chicken is a bird. Yeah, I know I don't know Should we navigate our morality by this metric of intelligence? Should we say the bird is not as smart as the octopus? I wouldn't eat an octopus You know, I don't care that you exist and you're Experiencing and that you can suffer it matters if you you can do algebra or if you can navigate a complex maze, but Would you would you ever eat insects? Probably not no, I mean depends on the scenario but not in a jet not in right now, no But what do you mean by the scenario? I have a survival situation. I probably choose insects over A pig a wild pig, but with that not is that not defined on their intelligence because it is Because I would say on their their capacity to experience would be my metric Do they experience pain? It's unstudied There's evidence for some insects less for others Fish and chickens and that's very clear car It is They're still in the spectrum Like bees, yes And certain insects. Yes. It's a hard. Yes other insects. It's gray You know some mollusk like whiskers. It's gray I do I don't need a benefit of the doubt because I'm not in some survival situation But survival situation I go for an oyster first And leave the birds and the fish. You know what I'm saying? I do but in my like it's the same scenario as Looking at the spectrum of intelligence in my eyes. Why not intelligence and and sentience are different Sentience is you're experiencing the world, right? Yeah, you're you feel sensations your brain is It's like you can see in your experience in reality. That's like consciousness Whether your intelligence doesn't come into that It's it's like it's like maybe a part. Do you not think they go hand in hand because No, no, actually don't no they don't because plants are intelligent. They're not sentient Plants display like your phone is intelligent. I guess a mushroom's very intelligent then. Yeah, well, your phone is intelligent. It's not sentient But I I guess in in my head that there may be Ignore the intelligence and sentience. Do I say maybe a chicken less sentient than a human is? Or a fish is less intelligent. Yeah. Yeah, but I would say they matter more than your taste preference They do they do matter more. But yeah, maybe I got the maybe maybe it's not intelligence that I'm looking for It's more sentient the house sentient. They are do you think that a chicken's life Matters more than your You know the five minutes pleasure you get from a burger Yes, I do. I don't know. It's bad to say but I yeah, like the life of a bird. We're talking about a bird Yeah, you know, there's a pigeon over there Like I get five minutes of taste preference from running up cutting their head off crying them out Did that pigeon's life matter more than that five minutes of pleasure? Whatever it takes me to eat it and it up like do you remember where you had breakfast three days ago? Not really I've forgotten about It didn't matter to you It was everything to that animal everything they had It's been really good talking to you bro. Here. Let me give you that. Did I give you this? I want to give you this Joey Joey nice to meet Norman Norman really good talking to you mate and uh, this is uh Some documentaries if you're going to watch one out of anything on this whole plate. This is like some help Find vegan restaurants near you what to eat If you're interested This one here Dominion Watch it. Thanks. I'm interested in eating more vegan. I just would never cut down completely Say never never say never make final last words of a vegan Vegan in the making take care mate. Cool, man. No worries