 I welcome you all to the 27th meeting of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee of 2017. I would like to remind members and members of the public to switch off mobile phones. Any members using electronic devices to access committee papers during the meeting should please ensure that they are switched to silent. I am delighted on behalf of the committee to welcome Her Excellency Tina Intelman, the ambassador of Estonia to the United Kingdom, who is here to give evidence to the committee on the occasion of the Estonian presidency of the Council of the European Union. I would like to invite the ambassador to open proceedings with an opening statement, and then we will be open to questions from members of the committee. Thank you very much, honourable members of the committee. Let me thank you first for inviting me today to address you. Estonia took over the presidency of the European Union on July 1, and you may know that it was not initially intended to happen like that. It was supposed to be the British presidency of the European Union, and we were supposed to follow. But we did that because the UK felt that it was not anymore in a position to preside over Europe. We are a country of 1.4 million people, and of course, since we are doing the presidency for the first time, we really want to perform that presidency to a very high standard. In Estonia, the support for the European Union now stands at around 80 per cent. So, fortunately, the government and the civil servants, they have a very, very strong backing at home while performing the duties of the presidency. When we were doing the midterm review of these six months, our Prime Minister has said that we feel that we have been able to build some bridges these three or four months, which is probably a good statement and a statement that really reflects the feeling and the challenges that we have during this time. The slogan or the theme of the Estonian presidency is unity through balance. Besides building these bridges, I may also say that when we took over the mood about the European Union, it was not the best. There had been the British referendum and people were asking if in Europe, in general, we had been doing something wrong, and if we had not been giving the right messages to our people and if we were losing the support of the people. We may say that the mood is changing and has changed considerably. I said that in Estonia, the support for the European Union stands very high, but we also see that the popularity of the Union in other member states is increasing, and of course the economy is also growing. Brexit gives us a challenge per se in terms of negotiations, but also Brexit gives us food for thought as to how we, in the format of 27, want to move ahead and which are the avenues of deeper integrations that we want to explore. A president of the Commission Junker has made his proposals a couple of months ago, and also the French president Macron has expressed how he sees the future of Europe. So the next two years or so we will have a very thorough discussion at the level of leaders of the 27 how to move ahead in different areas like the Eurozone, like internal security, like trade and future financing of the European Union, all very, very vital issues. In the framework of presidency discussions and presidency priorities, we've also said that the European citizens need to see tangible results and tangible things from Europe. Because if you think about alienation, if you think about citizens taking for granted what they have and not realising what they're getting from the European Union, this is where you get in trouble. So we have always stressed that the citizens need to see what they get, and we have also stressed that the institutional setup is important, but the institutional setup is not the most important of things. Now let me go into the four stated priorities of the Estonian presidency and maybe add some key words to these priority areas. So it's open and innovative European economy, safe and secure Europe, digital Europe with a free movement of data and inclusive and sustainable Europe. First of all about the European economy. I said that the economy is growing, but honourable members of the committee know better than I do that you have to run as fast as you can to stand in one place. But if you want to go to get somewhere, you have to run twice as fast. And this is exactly true about economic development. We just cannot be reassured that the economy is growing right now. The structure of our economies is changing. We have companies like Uber, for instance. We have digital nomads. We have people who work and live in different countries, and we expect to be in a relationship with our country while living elsewhere. We also have to talk about strategic investments in Europe, so there needs to be reinforcement of European funds for strategic investments, and there needs to be knowledge-based growth and competitiveness. We have also moved ahead throughout these months on, for instance, how to apply VAT on e-commerce. Issues that are now coming up because of the changes in the structure of our economies. Concerning the inclusiveness and sustainability. So that's essentially the social agenda of Europe. It is now going to be the proclamation of the European pillar of social rights, and a deeper look at the social at key, and also the simplification of social security coordination regulations. People are moving. We have the free movement of people within Europe, so we need to look at the social guarantees and how we treat the rights of these workers who move from one place to another. The third issue, as I mentioned, is the safe and secure Europe. The issue of security and the overall security environment in which we operate is of concern. To us collectively, and then to Estonia in particular, we have taken a look at how to explain to people where we stand. So we've created a digital sanctions map. We know that Europe has imposed sanctions. Some of the sanctions are linked with the UN Security Council sanctions, but how do you actually digest that? How do you understand that? So now we have an EU digital sanctions map, which is also somehow user-friendly. There are now 40 sanction regimes currently that are applied, so now we have a better look at that. We're looking forward to a launch of permanent structured cooperation. There is a clear understanding of a defence industrial development programme. We are also tackling continuously with the migration and refugee crisis. This issue has not been solved and is not going to be solved. It's not going to go away, but we are better prepared to address that. The migration flows now have significantly reduced this year, but the pressure will persist. There will be pressure from economic migrants and also pressure from refugees. Concerning the security environment, we are now also facing hybrid threats and cyber threats. In Tallinn, for the first time ever, we sat the defence ministers around the table, and the NATO Secretary General was also there, and we did a practical lesson and simulation of how to address the cyber threats and hybrid threats for ministers themselves to get a better understanding and to give a better understanding in what security environment we're living right now. Terrorist threats also, terrorism is not going to go away, but we are much better prepared to address this issue. We are reinforcing the exchange of information, and of course the terrorist threats that happen get in the media, but there are so many of them which don't happen, and of course we don't know about them. And lastly, the Estonian presidency has been referred to as a digital presidency. In Tallinn, we held a digital summit to get the message across that the digitalisation of our economies is not something that is only done in some countries, it's not something that is optional, it is an overall European issue, and all leaders need to be committed to it. We're now talking about the digital common market, and we feel that maybe we should announce the free movement of data as the fourth freedom of movement in Europe. For instance, in Estonia we have also talked about digital signature, which is in place in Estonia, and also in a number of other countries. We feel that this is an avenue for probably all of the Europe, and it's also, we should also see that this digital, so to say, signature, and other digital ways of interaction with citizens with the concrete member state, like Estonian citizens with Estonian government, some of these ways of interaction should be applied across the board, if we really like to talk about integrated Europe. So in short, these are the issues that the Estonian presidency has been dealing with. I'm more than happy to respond to all questions about Brexit. Brexit is dealt with by the two negotiating teams. It's not a topic for the presidency. Of course, we all have a stake in it. It's a sad issue. From our side, we want to get through it as smoothly as we can, and start looking at the future arrangements. We hope that our relationship with the United Kingdom will be very friendly and strong in the future, and I trust that this is the hope of all European Union member states. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Your Excellency, for that comprehensive opening statement, and good morning. Can I open by asking you—I've been looking at the Estonian Government's presidency programme, and, as you have said yourself—that the first aspect of that is protecting and promoting the EU's four freedoms, the freedom of movement of goods, persons, services and capital. In terms of actions under that priority, you've outlined that modernising the rules in terms of labour, mobility and free movement of persons is a priority for you. In that context, what do you think are the chances of reaching an open trading agreement with the United Kingdom, given that the United Kingdom is very much set against free movement of persons and wishes to remove the country from that? I don't have the crystal ball, unfortunately, with me. I left it in the hotel. Nobody has the crystal ball right now. About this issue, we are very well aware of the fact that the UK is a very important trading partner, but at the same time, of course, one cannot stay inside. It's the same time being outside. If you look at the trade agreements that the European Union has, there are different ways of dealing with trade. Right now, finalising a free trade agreement with Japan, we have another one with Canada. We have been negotiating one with the US that is still in the process of consideration. These negotiations take quite a long time, and it will be a separate process once we agree on the divorce. The situation is also made more complex because there is no existing modality of relationship or agreement that would be acceptable to the United Kingdom. There would have to be another modality, another system and another framework, and that will take time to negotiate it. What do you think the chances are of being able to move on to the next stage of negotiations in December? There would have to be a further movement in terms of financial obligations. It was quite clearly said in the October Council that in terms of citizens' rights and with regards to Ireland, there has been movement, but in terms of the financial obligations, the movement has not been sufficient. We really very much hope that in December we can start with the next phase. Internally in the European Union, we are talking now about the possible arrangements for the transition period. We are preparing ourselves, but as we feel it in Brussels, the ball is in the court of the United Kingdom to be a little bit more forward coming in terms of financial agreements. Truth be said, the integration is very deep, the levels of integration that we have achieved and also the financial obligations that we have taken together are quite complex. The 27 feel that there is still room for the UK to move and to be a little bit more forward coming because somebody has to carry forward the financial obligations that we have and they are quite substantive. We have given loans for instance and so on. You mentioned transition. In your view, if there isn't a transition agreement after March 2019, would freedom of movement have to continue as part of that transition agreement? The UK government has said that during the transition period, the freedom of movement would continue, as I understand it right now, and that also those European citizens who are here would be welcome to stay here provided that they register. This is what we take and is the position of the government and we take that information as it has come to us. As I said, the modalities of the transition period and the fact whether we engage in this transition period, it still has to be decided. We like to keep these negotiations between the two negotiating teams because it is beneficial for the UK to have one negotiating partner and it is also vital for us to stay together as a block of 27 and to address every issue that arises within our own group and then go out and negotiate. This is unfortunately where we are right now. You talked in your opening statement and in your lecture yesterday about your ambitions in terms of e-commerce, and Estonia has already got a global reputation as a digital nation. I know that you were talking about co-operation with health professionals in this country about e-medicine. Is co-operation on digital matters with the UK made easier or more difficult as a result of Brexit? The issue of digitalisation, let me put it a little bit in a broader perspective, what we see has happened is that private businesses have taken ahead this issue very strongly globally and sometimes, and then of course the private businesses, they are engaging our citizens, citizens of all our countries in e-commerce or in other activities in Facebook, wherever. Our citizens are using the possibilities that have been created by private businesses and now we are starting to see the backside of it. Not all is good what our citizens are doing in this virtual world and we feel that the government haven't stepped up in their responsibilities and taking some role in protecting their citizens and then offering their citizens a safer environment to operate in that digital world. So that's why the Estonian government is so strong in saying there's a role for government and there's a responsibility for government and for European governments as such. So that's the broader kind of the intellectual background from which we are coming. And that's why we're just speaking about it continuously. In terms of e-health, we have had an exchange of views yesterday. We feel that there is a possibility for us to work together because Scotland has developed quite considerably in this respect and we have also developed considerably, but there are different aspects where we could benefit from each other. Whether this future cooperation is made less or more possible, I think this cooperation is possible. I don't really think that the fact that you are exiting the European Union makes it impossible. Probably we just have to find other aspects of it. Clearly what we decide within the European Union in terms of digital common market or the free movement of data, clearly you would not be automatically associated to that. Okay, thank you. I'll pass on to Lewis MacDonald now. Thank you very much. I was struck by the themes of your presidency around an open and innovative European economy, a safe and secure Europe and also a digital Europe and the free movement of data. Those are all themes that are very important to the United Kingdom and to Scotland, as well as to Estonia and to the European Union. I wonder if, again, in a sense, reflecting the convener's questions, around the issue of safety and security, clearly there are live and present dangers in the world at the moment that affect the UK as much as the rest of the European Union. In developing safety and security policy within the European Union, you have talked about some of the things that are already initiated under the Estonian presidency. How far is it possible to maintain a connection with the UK as a key partner, facing many of the same threats and many of the same risks in the wider world, whether that be cyber security, political interference from foreign powers or indeed the threats of altruism? It is in our interest to keep cooperating with the UK very closely and the UK government has said exactly the same. They have said that they would continue participating in EU missions abroad and also they would be interested in exchanging data and in setting up different frameworks, but probably there would have to be an additional agreement about some of the aspects. So the interest is very much there because our common threats are there and we have analysed them and we understand that we are stronger when we face them together, but probably there would also have to be different agreements concluding in different spots. There has been quite a lot of concern lately around particularly interference by Russia and its agencies in political processes in Spain and Britain and other parts of the world in the United States and also their presence online and the threat of digital warfare. I think that somebody described it as the other day or certainly digital aggression in interfering in the internal affairs of other countries. Clearly when you pull together defence ministers from the European Union to discuss cyber security, those kind of issues will be on the agenda. Could you say a little more about how we can work together more effectively? I know for example that government in Estonia is very integrated electronically which must be hyper efficient most of the time but clearly carries with it a security risk and I wonder if you could say more about those issues. Yes, we like to talk about digital threats and that allegedly are some of them at least and are emanating from Russia. There's another issue that I want to put on record, it's a propaganda and we see that European publics are quite vulnerable to this propaganda or alternative facts or distortion of facts. So it's clearly space for us, for politicians of all European countries to be more aware of this issue also. Concerning digital security, cyber security, we like to talk about also cyber hygiene. So as I said people are now doing things on the internet sometimes totally unaware of basic methods or basic things that they would have to do to protect themselves. When you do your internet banking you should log out afterwards, this you know, but there are certain things that people do not know because nobody has told them so and the private companies that have offered them these possibilities have never said that people would be vulnerable because the private companies are interested in people just using. They are not there to give lessons or to teach people. So that's one of the things where governments certainly have a role to play. Fortunately now cyber security is being addressed on international level not only at the level of the European Union but also in NATO very strongly. The United Kingdom is part of NATO in the OSCE also in the United Nations. So it's a global concern, global issue. Within the United Nations there is a talk about creating this you know, a piece of international law that governs that area of activity, international law is necessary. Even if people do not abide by it and even if there is a certain amount of confusion, if there is no international law there is no base of rules that we can show to those who violate those rules. So in all of these spheres we hope that we can work together with the United Kingdom, we have been working together. Let me just say that we are also very very grateful to UK for leading the exercise of boots on the ground in Estonia. The British military personnel who are in Estonia are a great asset to us and we're really very very grateful for that also. It's the physical security boots on the ground but it's also the corporation in facing cyber threats that makes us stronger together in NATO. Thank you Tavish Scott. I want to carry on that line of questioning from Lewis MacDonald about as you say the physical security. Russia is your biggest concern as a country? Russia is a big concern but not only for us it's a concern for the western world for us jointly. Russian activities have become unpredictable and Russia as we all remember has occupied part of our territory of Ukraine. These actions are totally unacceptable for us. Thank you. The reason I ask is that I represent Shetland very far north of these islands and indeed of Europe and we are seeing the UK Ministry of Defence reinstalling a radar dorm to keep an eye on aggressive military behaviour by the Russians both in the air and in sea and the Ministry of Defence explained that in pretty worrying terms in recent days. I wonder what your presidency conceives of the development of an EU defence force because there is some discussion about that as opposed to the role of NATO. Have you a view as to how that concept will become a reality or where that debate will lead in the next six months during your presidency? European Union Defence Corporation is deepening. It's a fact. There is a clear common understanding that this needs to develop. Of course it is not at the expense of NATO. We believe in very strong NATO in article 5 and in the value of very robust cooperation within NATO and in keeping very clear why NATO stands and why NATO is there, why NATO was created. It's a defence alliance. The EU defence force in whatever way that deepens. Do you foresee a role, as Lewis MacDonald was asking for the United Kingdom in that in terms of partnerships? Yes. We very much hope that the UK will be in partnership with the EU in that. What do you think will happen in the next six months on that agenda? Is that part of your presidency's particular objectives or particular work streams? Yes. I think that more deeper discussion about that will happen in the next six months during the Bulgarian presidency. It's quite clear, as I said, that there is a common will to deepen defence cooperation. As I said, there is a permanent structured cooperation and there are discussions on the European Defence Industrial Development programme. It is going ahead. Thank you. The final question I wanted to ask you made a point there about propaganda. Do you have a view of Russia today as an arm of the Kremlin propaganda in this country? Yes. We have a view about Russia today as a Kremlin arm of propaganda. It's exactly what it is. Thank you very much. Thank you. Jackson Carlaw. Good morning. I'm not sure that in the last session of our Parliament I'm not I'm not sure if it was your predecessor or whether it was a minister from the Government came over and spoke at a lunch here in the Scottish Parliament. I was really quite evangelical about the paperless digital infrastructure that has been established in Estonia and it was quite fascinating to see what has been achieved and how many platforms and agencies and ways in which the Government has managed to embrace this. I'm interested, I mean, one attack on our national health service here, a digital attack, paralysed hospitals all over the country. I just wonder whether there have been any attempts, therefore, to try and paralys the infrastructure in Estonia, what systems and how able you are to respond to that and whether having this much deeper and broader digital platform that the public into face with in so many different ways has led to a much deeper awareness within citizens of their own personal security and needs to be cautious and to act because again in this country I think there is a very considerable concern about the lack of awareness and naivety of many people in terms of the way that they engage and I'd be interested to know in a country which is much more developed in this regard than perhaps we are here how you're responding to that and whether or not you have faced attempts to undermine your structure. We experienced massive cyber attacks coupled with riots in the streets around 10 years ago. This is when we started talking about cyber attacks and cyber warfare and we know where these attacks originated from. Sadly, we are leaders in this respect because we saw what can happen. None of our systems was damaged irreparably but this is why we started ringing the alarm bell saying that we need to work on international law and we also need to work on practical measures. There's a lot of awareness. NATO has established or we together NATO members have established a cyber security center in Tallinn where we are dealing specifically with these issues. The awareness in Estonia is quite high but of course you know me as a simple consumer I am quite stupid if I compare myself with people who are experts and knowledgeable so that's why also the government is taking responsibility of course of all of these paperless environment because essentially Estonian citizen is interacting with the state through digital means, paying the taxis, setting up a company. We have these interacting with the health, looking into the health records, doing whatever. I mean you just cannot imagine going to an office anymore because you're just a log on the computer. You use your digital ID and it's a safe environment that we have created with different passwords and so on and you know this is how we do business. There is as I said there is awareness but of course nothing is 100% safe. Also when I walk in the street it's not 100% safe because I may be run over by a car accidentally or on purpose. That doesn't mean that we are going to ban the cars. This is progress so we need to face the threats that we have but we cannot stand in the way of progress and that's exactly the thing that Silicon Valley is always there. People come up with new solutions and citizens, our citizens of our states are using these solutions. So you know the progress is there and if the government shuts the eyes it's no benefit for anybody. So there is awareness but a lot remains to be done. We are dealing with that systematically on a daily basis. I'm sure that it is an area that irrespective of the future relationship we will want to ensure that there's the strongest co-operation on. Absolutely because the cyber world is not made up of compartments. It's not a compartment for Estonia and another compartment for the UK. Our citizens are all there together. One other point was that when your colleague was here we discussed the quite advanced links that exist between Scotland and Estonia, particularly in Tallinn where there is a considerable entrepreneurial exchange in terms of business links and co-operation. Where stands that today? I say in passing that whatever the future relationship you can be assured that everybody here will be doing everything we can to ensure that that very productive relationship that has existed between Scotland and Estonia and particularly the business community in Tallinn continues. Relationship is really very good and business relationship is never enough. So there are ways of deepening these relationships and then ways of exchange that I intend to look into as ambassador for sure and I hope that also businesses are doing the same. Yesterday we inaugurated a new honorary consul here who has a digital company and who will be a very active honorary consul I'm sure in looking into strengthening these ties. I'm also happy that part of our 100 years celebration next year we're celebrating 100 years of the Estonian state. So a big part of these cultural celebrations are going to happen in Scotland over the next year. So we are very much for co-operating with Scotland and maintaining good relations. We look forward to that. Thank you very much. Stuart McMillan. Thank you, convener. Good morning, ambassador. Certainly, as you stated earlier, Estonia took over the presidency six months prior to your original planning. How easy was that to deliver? Well, of course there were moments of panic. But we decided that we would do it. There were discussions in Brussels and then it was decided that for somebody else to step in at a short notice would have been even more difficult. Of course we are losing some of the moment of grandeur because it was supposed to be that we celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Estonian state together with taking the presidency and we're concerned there were all these activities that were planned so we needed to plan them differently. Overall, I hope that we are managing and I hope that our presidency is being appreciated and December is approaching fast. Certainly, earlier on you stated in terms of the theme for your presidency is unity through balance. Obviously in recent months we discussed some events in the EU earlier this morning but there was the referendum that took place in Catalonia and the subsequent violence took place against people who were attempting to vote. Do you think—in your opinion—that was a balanced approach from the Spanish government to citizens who wanted to express their democratic right? Of course we all know we're not living in the perfect world but we are aspiring towards being perfect. European Union is made up of mature democracies and we trust each other and we do think that each of these democratic countries is prepared to address the issues that arise in their countries and also we feel that we should give each other the opportunity and the time to address these issues. Most certainly in Estonia we would hope that people in Brussels and other member states if we had a difficult situation gave us the opportunity to address our situation ourselves and also if we're looking at the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union because you feel or at least part of your population feels that Brussels tells you too many things or orders you too many things to do is too prescriptive so that's why also we trust that the Spanish government has all the means to address the situation on its territory. Certainly there has been a great deal of concern raised by many politicians not just here but certainly elsewhere as well just regarding the events that took place particularly around the violence and that certainly I think it probably hasn't done the European Union a lot of good that's probably been a lot of concern raised about the EU's position in terms of not wanting to encourage dialogue between the two sides. Do you think that that's a fair summation? I know that now the Spanish government has decided that there would be another election in Catalonia which I feel is very much within the democratic means that that Spanish or any government can use in these circumstances. Follow-up questions to both Jackson Carlaw and Tavish Scott sign a question. My understanding is that over the last 10 years or perhaps longer electronic voting has grown considerably to the point where I believe around 30 per cent of your population now vote e-vote. Obviously in that same period of time the risk of cyber attack particularly on European and Western democracies and democratic processes has increased. How do you ensure the integrity of an electronic voting system and has there been any debate around whether that's sustainable in light of recent events in other democracies? There are continuous discussions about the electronic voting but not towards eliminating it but towards keeping it very secure. We have now had 10 years of electronic voting in different elections including the elections to the European Parliament and there is the overall support of population towards that means because if you do not allow that you know people are not people are now used to it right you take it for granted you know I was before being posted to London as a Estonian ambassador which is a big privilege. I served in West Africa and I cast my vote from my desk in West Africa and I take it as my right so taking this right away from citizens would not be nice and then people would not appreciate that so while knowing all the risks we are still pursuing with that and we feel that the system that we have established is safe enough. Thanks and following Tavish Scott's point around defence and Russia today was raised as an example of propaganda and disinformation obviously the issue around disinformation propaganda campaigns cannot be solved by installing new radar stations for example. How do we tackle that? How do we tackle these very direct attempts to pump alternative facts false news etc into the European debate? Well there has to be first of all there has to be a recognition that this is happening and then there has to be I frankly think that politicians have a role in it and in explaining and in bringing forward these issues and also I think that the media has a wrong role to play. By being very open and believing that the end of history is near I think that we have become a little bit careless about what is happening in our societies. Would it be a mistake for European politicians to normalise these outlets as if they are legitimate media outlets compared to our own? To legitimise these outlets as if they are comparable to say the BBC or any of your broadcasters would it be a mistake for European politicians to act as if Russia today is comparable to a free western media outlet? Well it very much depends on on the collective and personal judgment of politicians in each and every member state or in each and every country thereby. It was really you mentioned in your opening remarks about the pillar of social rights. I'm a member of the committee of the regions where we adopted our position on that a couple of months ago and it was really just to get your thoughts on how you think that we can how especially at a European level how we can address the social inequalities because obviously I think that national governments will have their own policies regardless which will affect that. How you see that that can be done at a European level and does that involve specific EU funded programmes to try and tackle that in individual areas or how will that be done? So how to even up the... Yeah and to try and prevent or at least do something about positive to tackle the social inequalities that exist between the member states and across Europe? Well certainly it will take some time and and we see that this is happening but it's also part of normal economic processes right because you know when when some of the European Union members the present member states joined they were slightly at a lower level of wealth. But also there are different ways of addressing issues. For instance there is this posting of workers directive that was adopted recently. So you know to also see what kind of effects the free movement of persons and workers these are workers has. For instance this posting of workers directive involves the groups of people who come from one member state to another and then basically are there temporarily and are hired under the conditions of that other member state from from where they come. So there has to be a certain limitation and then certain rules apply to that also. So there are different means of dealing with that but there is no magic solution that would change the situation from one day to another. Okay thank you. Thank you very much and can I thank Her Excellency Ambassador Intlman for giving evidence to us today and I'll now close the meeting. Thank you very much for inviting me.