 up here on Cloud Native TV. We're gonna be talking about all the things that happened today at KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon. My name's Maddie Stratton. Joining me is my amazing co-host. Hello, my name is Kat Cosgrove. I'm a developer advocate at JFrog and I'm also here to help wrap up the day. Sorry that I don't have a tinfoil hat to protect me from the 5G or the aliens or like government mind control or whatever Stephen and Constance had going on today. All I had was wax paper and hopefully that works, but I don't have a lot of faith. Matt is pretty well protected over here with the aluminum fedora. Fedora uncovered it, although I don't know how long it'll stay because the hat's already too small for me and then I put tinfoil inside of it. So we'll see where we got. This was a pretty good day of KubeCon. There's a lot of good stuff. I kinda asked a bunch of people for their things they learned but before, like really this is all about us. So Kat, as Paul Zarkowski said, you're the hardest working person in DevOps right now. But you had two talks today. I did. I had two talks today and I had DevOps Day Seattle yesterday. But yeah, my first talk today was with Ian Coldwater. We didn't start the fire communication breakdowns and how to prevent them, which was the beginning of it turns out a series of talks on like why communication is important and why documentation is important and the specific ways in which screwing up either of those things can cause problems for everyone. Ian and I did also cosplay each other at the end of that talk. That's not a spoiler anymore because it's run but if you didn't catch it live, there's a VOD and there's a spoiler for you. We do cosplay each other at one point. The second one was on non-code contributions to Kubernetes, which is a really important thing. It doesn't really get talked about as much because in open source we kind of tend to more heavily weight the value of code contributions, which I think kind of sucks because the code contributions aren't really as useful if the code's not documented, you know? But now I'm doing this. Yeah, as I said, fix our typos. Oh yeah, Kohe was very big on the please fix our typos. It's true. Please, please. You know how often you make typos in your own code? Like you spend hours trying to figure out like what's wrong? Why won't this run? And the like compiler errors you're getting are like arcane and weird and you have no idea what that means and then it turns out that you like typo to variable name or you've got like a missing semi-colon hanging out somewhere or missing curly brace. It's worse with our cops. Words and sentences too. Yeah, it's so much worse with the words in the docs. Like it's terrible. It's terrible. That's why nobody reads my documentation. Speaking of, so I wanted to call out Celeste's talk which was right before this, which was about writing for developers and writing documentation. And I was taking furious notes because I was in a three hour meeting yesterday talking about plans we have around documentation and just improving it. And I think it's a lot more than we think it is. In general, there's Celeste's actually kind of walked through how your user, the person reading your documentation is going through the hero's journey. And it's, there's different kinds of, I don't know, we kind of always think that docs are like, especially if we're the person that created it we think about docs just purely as reference, I think. Right, which is just like, okay, this is what it does. These are the interfaces. Go figure it out, have, good luck, have fun. And there's so much more around that narrative. Yeah, my favorite thing about Celeste's talk was that she's an actual professional technical writer and I'm just somebody who yells about this a lot on the internet. And she was like, she, the professional had points that I have made before too. So I feel really validated that the actual professional agrees when I whine about like, hey, you're an expert. So like, maybe the way you write docs is not the most ideal because experts, you know, forget what it's like to not know things. So I make sure we know that she is here. She is here. I can see her in the video. Yeah, I see her yelling through Twitch and Periscope. Right. Which is fun. Hi Celeste. I mean, we could add her. Yeah, we could just bring Celeste in. I'll ask her if she wants to come in. Celeste, DM me if you want to, DM me on Discord if you want to come in here. You could list the third channel that we haven't talked about. Yeah, DM me on Discord. Which of the 75 different ways that you can talk to me should we do this here? Oh, well, while we're waiting for that, I was going to say I want to pull up some of the things that some non-cat and non-matte people have said that they learned today because we asked some people in the CNCF Slack and then on Twitter, we didn't rely on some people. We asked all the people, but just some of the people told us. So I, so Dusty said that I said, I learned it's never too early to start to contribute. We all have something we can add to the community. And I think new users have amazing superpowers. I'm going through that right now because I just started in, this is week six at my job. And one of the things that almost everybody has told me is, okay, I have so many questions for you, Maddie, because I want you to tell me everything that we're missing because you're learning this now. You know, that different thing. Hi, Celeste. Hi. Good morning. We ended the beginning of the day because I know that Kat and I are both on Pacific Standard Time. Yeah. Oh, it's nice and late at 9 a.m. here. Yeah, I finished my talk and I literally looked at the clock and I was like, it feels like five o'clock and it's not even seven. It's, no, I had Starbucks delivered. That's where I'm at. That's delightful. That's delightful. You know, I'm going to pop off camera for a second because I don't have a funny hat in this room, but I do have one in this house. Excellent. And I retrieve it. Okay, we'll talk about this community thing while you get a funny hat because this is a funny hat party now. Yes, one of the things about this community is that there are so many ways to get ahold of us. Like I mentioned Discord because I use Discord heavily for like community stuff that doesn't feel as much like work. I actually super prefer it if people do not message me on Discord about work topics, but there are like multiple Slack workspaces. There's a CNCF Slack there, which is where all of the like hallway track and track conversation for KubeCon is going on right now, slash all day. There's the Kubernetes Slack. There is Twitter and we're extremely easy to get ahold of, but there's been a lot of really great conversation about KubeCon and about all of the talks in all of these mediums for the last couple of days and it can get a little bit overwhelming to keep track of, which is what people like me and Maddie are for doing things like this to tell you what is funny? What's topical? What's been helpful? Ha, ha, ha. I was just wondering if my brows are good. Steven Augustus banging the table, funny hats, funny hats, yes. It's a funny hat party. You are an influencer, Steven. I'm sorry, Steven. Madge on your holly work. Oh, excellent. This wasn't the funny hat that I was looking for. It's just another funny hat they found in the process of looking for a different funny hat. Does it protect you from the 5G brain control? I think it's just 4G rated. Oh, okay. Well, mine's wax paper, so. I don't think I have good production. Is that I have to use my AirPods because I can't use my regular cans because of the hat. And the problem I have with the AirPods Pro, I love them except they do not stay in my ears if I'm talking or smiling. Like, if I don't move my mouth, they're fine. So not good for streaming. Okay, well, just don't smile or talk. Maybe I realize. No happiness, Madge. Yeah, happiness is banned. Yeah. We don't do that. Yeah, I was looking for a funny hat from one of the Zelda games that my sister bought. And instead I found a funny hat from Nerudo, which my sister also bought, but for me, as a Christmas present one year. This is, so this is like some- I'm costuming by Celeste's sister. Yeah, yeah. This is, how do I, this is gonna be some like real weeaboo, like deep diving. Let's get maybe a little bit relaxed. This is the hat that goes with Nerudo's pajamas. Oh, so you're asked. Oh, baby. Oh, wait, look, your connection just dropped. Oh no. Again, I was looking for a different funny hat and like my ADHD told me it was in one specific location of the house. It was not, which means that it doesn't exist anymore. Oh yeah, it's gone. I have no idea where it is. But in the process of looking for that, I found this funny hat. So you're still, you're still solid. So you gave a slammin' talk today. Absolutely slammin' about docs, something I'm also passionate about because I love reading a good doc. I document all of my personal projects because I know that Kat, three months from now, is an idiot. Kat, current, today Kat is also an idiot, but she doesn't realize it yet. Three months from now, she figures it out. So I document my like my personal projects that like nobody sees that exist in private GitHub repos because otherwise I will be lost if I ever need to use or change that thing again. So a big fan of your work. Thank you. Yeah, that's actually something I guess we're trying to do a bit more of in the CNCF is like, you know, ultimately our doc team is always gonna be really small. Like we're a nonprofit and a higher, like one docs person for all AD CNCF projects that is not a feasible use of our money. So really what I'm trying to think about is like how do we stretch the limited resource of like me as efficiently as possible? And like something that I would love to do and we'll see if it actually pans out is turn that talk into more of a series where you go into a deep dive of each of the kinds of documentation where it's like one talk, I'm just like, here's how you write a great concept. Like this is how you explain a concept topic to somebody. Here's how you write a great task or a great tutorial. Here's what really good reference documentation is written like. And then just turn it into a resource that people can refer back to which is kind of how I structured that talk is I wanted it to be something that people could play back a million times over so that I didn't have to explain it a million times over. It was documentation, but documentation. Well, it's something that like developers aren't really taught, right? Like Maddie, did you, Maddie, did you go to college? For a hot second, I was a theater major. Oh, okay, yeah, okay. So I dropped out. That was a lot. So I dropped out too, no, no. I mean, not only did I not finish college, I didn't even go to college for computers, so. I didn't go to college for computers either. And I also dropped out, so. But like, I don't think that they really go into detail on how to write documentation even if you do go get a CS degree, right? But developers are still expected to do that to some extent. So if there's anything I learned from today's talks is that like a lot of people have this problem, like multiple talks in a row, brought up like communication, like written communication and documentation before your talk exclusively on that topic. So this is clearly something that people don't actually know how to do. They aren't taught how to do and could benefit from learning how to do. So maybe, you know, slang that content at us, Celeste. All right. I mean, those are my next like few years of KubeCon talks sorted. Thank you very much, everybody. No problem. I wanted to, oh, sorry. No, no, no. In the chat, Collin said that there are non-English speaker and thought that we were talking about ducks, not docks and was trying to connect that to geese. And this all, you know, I can see that, you know. I can see that. There is a duck. That's our next waterfall connection is a documentation now is represented by a duck, I guess. Have y'all seen the very tall duck? I've seen it in person. You have seen Long Boy York in person? No, okay. We're talking about a different duck. I would thought we were talking about like a- There are many very tall ducks. Like a- I thought we were talking about like the really large like blow-up duck that was like touring around harbors. Oh, the like rubber duck? No, no, no. There is a duck in England named Long Boy York that is currently taking Instagram by storm. This is- That's hilarious. He's very tall. It is a huge mallard. Just Google Long Boy York and you will find it. It is the tallest duck I've ever seen in my life. It's incredible. Oh, he's delightful. Look at him. Oh, I love him. He is very long. Yeah. He's very, very long. So, we are now talking about ducks for the person who thought we were talking about ducks when we were talking about ducks. There's your duck talk. You thought it was reality. We manifested that for you. Right. So I will say like so many of the replies I've gotten about what people learned have been talking about your talk. So I mean, I think that's really great. We've also, you know, not to like just gas up the host but I guess we're gonna do that. A lot of, you know, things about Cat and Ian's talk. So Jessica and Slack said, I'm not sure how to mention as a learning but I feel that Ian and Cat's session on communication breakdown and their transparency and honesty was really appreciated by the community. And I think it's funny because to me watching that it didn't resonate that way until I sort of sat on it a little bit, because at first I was just like, oh, this is just really interesting. And like two smart people I like to listen to are just telling a story. And then it sort of sank in to be like, that's a pretty scary story to tell that transparently. And I think showing that is powerful. I don't know if we thought of it that way when we were writing it. Honestly. People tell you what your stuff is about but they're right. Yeah, it's weird. I mean, it is correct. Like that is the way it comes across. But I don't know, I didn't consider that when I was telling that story, when I was writing it in the first place. So wait, Celeste, was that a hero's journey? Yeah, yeah it was. That's why I sort of had like all the fairy tales and stuff, cause I was like, well, let's just explain this like archetypal thing that's amazing archetypal fairy tales. Well, you and Ian had a hero's plural journey cause there were two- Oh, did you? There's two. Oh my God, amazing. Great minds, you know what they say. But I think the whole dockership thing too, at least like from the perspective of like somebody who often gets tasked with emergency communications or gets like called in like, oh no, we did it wrong, come save us. And I say that in the kindness of lights to every team that I've ever worked with. Cause it happens all the time. It's not just, it's not any individual. That's kind of just a sign of maturity. Like, okay, it didn't go perfectly, but that's again, it's a sign of community maturity, of product maturity that you need to start communicating things in advance because there are people relying on it, right? When you're scrappy little project, you can do whatever you like. True. Yeah, we don't have the luxury of doing that anymore. And the fact that we were able to put a whole like full length conference talk together about times where like we as a community have screwed that up, should communicate pretty clearly that we cannot do this anymore. And a lot of that does come down to like please document stuff. Please document it in a place where people can see it in a way that people can understand it in advance, which is why, you know, people like you get hired to help do that. And hopefully we don't have to call you in at the last minute to deal with an emergency over the course of six hours with like a dozen people in one Google doc frantically trying to write a blog post together. Yeah, I mean, I think so I just want to call it Stephen Augustus's work with the release team and always having communications and docs as a part of that team because that is not a perspective that a lot of engineering leads have. And I think to me that's kind of, it's utilizing that team a little bit better that will really start to make a difference. But I mean, even in the most professional of settings, you fumble the ball sometimes, it happens. So you do. You fumble the ball, but hopefully not the bag. Yeah, this is true. This is true. Don't fumble the bag, get the bag. Don't fumble the bag, get the bag. But I think like, I don't know, I think we're gonna get there. I think the other half that really like honestly, as somebody who works in writing, I have to say this, it is also up to the customers and the users of the product to read the release notes thoroughly. We can write it all you want, but and to be clear about the Dockerson thing that was communicated as a deprecation in prior release notes, because that was that standard policy for the Kubernetes project. And for like any project, any software, like it's standard, standard practice. And we can only do so much if those people aren't gonna read. I think though, like there's something about meeting people where they are. And I thought about this a lot. It's funny because there's an example I've given a lot and I haven't given it lately because I haven't talked about it, but that doesn't matter, whatever. Just give the example, Maddie. So there's, you know, different people consume information in different ways. And one of the things I never really realized how this came up as much was I worked at this company and most we had like several floors in the building where we had the whole floor, but the floor I worked on, we didn't have the whole floor and what that meant was so the restrooms, we didn't completely control the restrooms. They were shared with another company. And we did so much corporate communication through signs in the restroom that I didn't have that anymore. Like when I moved to that other floor, like there were whole things happening within our organization that I didn't know about that had probably been, probably did exist in other ways, but I had become accustomed to the place where I got information about what was happening at Classified Ventures was there were signs in the restroom. And so I think it's, it doesn't mean that like, because again, sort of going back to our thing before it's like, you know, I've got 75 different communication tools because I have more than 75 friends and everybody has their preferred one. It doesn't mean like, okay, because you've got people in your community that use whatever flavor of the month thing, but there's some broad strokes I think of like feeds or release notes or, you know, a couple of places to kind of, you know, rather than be like, Hey, I put it in the notes, why didn't you see it? It's like, okay, you might find a couple of places, but also don't feel like you have to like, find every single way that someone might ever want to know, you know? Yeah. And I think, I think, you know, I do think there is like an aspect of the old, the old panty at play here as well, which is everybody had to learn how to communicate and over communicate very, very quickly. And I think that this was maybe a part of that. I think it was influenced by the pandemic because normally what happens in, when sort of, for example, you're an internal user upgrading a piece of software like Kubernetes, what happens is, if you're the person responsible for that upgrade, you have probably poured over those release notes and you have internalized them for yourself. And then what you go, what you probably do is say, oh, this Dockrishan piece, let's tell that to the rest of my team. And you would do that in a meeting, face to face. But the pandemic has kind of broken down a lot of those face to face communication structures for people. And we've all had to learn in a hurry that we have to over communicate things, particularly if we're using text. Yeah. And I think that's kind of just one of the lessons to take away is, if it's important, we probably need to say it three, four, five, six times. And there's no shame in that. Like, oh no, like definitely the longer this has gone on, the worse I've gotten with responding to digital communications. So like, if you send me an email or I owe you something and I don't respond and you think I normally would, take it very personally. It's you that I hate specifically. I'm avoiding you and only you. I'm actively replying within minutes to everybody else, you know. It's just- I'm anxious and I know you're joking and I'm still anxious. No, it's that I'm extremely forgetful. Now, like I didn't used to be, this is the pandemic has absolutely made this worse. So like, especially if it's a Twitter DM, oh geez, if you DM'd me on Twitter and I responded with like in the affirmative that I would like give you something and then I just drop off the face of the earth but you can see me tweeting. It's because Twitter DMs are the worst for like actually establishing communication. So just poke me again. I see somebody saying that's why God invented Zoom calls. Please do not put me on a Zoom call that could have been an email. I really, who I don't wanna do that either. This is why if the only way I know how to reach you is Twitter, but I wanna have a conversation. One of the very first things that happens is I, very, and also just to be very clear, very politely and putting agency on the other person but say like, please email me and we'll continue this or what's a good email address where we can get because I know just that the management of Twitter DMs is, there's no mark is unread. Or pin it or like send me a reminder or like anything. I really wish they would. Yeah. Again, the pandemic, that's the other half of it, right? Is now that we all have to over communicate with each other. We're all like utterly overwhelmed by the amount of communication leaving. I literally, I had Slack open at some point yesterday and I got overwhelmed. I was like, I just have to close this. And like I get anxious when people don't respond to me. So I felt horrible about it. Can I use the pandemic as the reason that I opened up the web browser to try to find patio furniture and got really overwhelmed and closed it? Is that too much coming in from the panning? That's why I couldn't, okay. I'll take it. Yeah, it's because of the Panopticon, the Panera Bread Company. Yes, the pan series company. But it's true. It's getting worse and worse and worse. And I am definitely getting better at just like turning off comms because it does get overwhelming, especially with like the sheer number of like Slack workspaces we're all in now, you know? I'm in like, one, two, three, four, five, nine that I actively get messages from. That are active, right? I was gonna say like, and I don't stick around in a Slack any longer, like then I have to. And there's still probably 10 or 11 showing up on my. Yeah. Somebody in Twitch is asking, do Americans call the pandemic the panning? So that happened because I saw a British person say that on Twitter and it got lodged into my brain real hard. And then I set it live on the CNCF bake off, which was part of the like a contributor summit, I think. And for some reason that just like stuck really hard with the cloud native community. So now like two thirds of the cloud native community calls it the panning. So that's my fault. I think it was me and Tim Banks. It was you and Tim Banks that were just like, like you heard me say it and then just like blue screened. And so it stuck hard and that's, Americans do not say that, no, but the cloud native community does because I saw a British person say it. So ultimately this is the thing you can absolutely blame on the British. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, oh, hi Stephen. So talking about being overwhelmed. I mean, how about all those, how about that speed run through the sandbox projects and the keynote? I think the one that Justin Cormack did. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that frankly, I think that should happen at literally every QCon. It is my job to know some of this stuff and I can't keep track of all of the stuff in the landscape. So yeah, that was useful. And I think it should happen every year. So that was really rad. Celeste, you were asleep for that. Yeah, so I mean, I feel terrible about sleeping through the first half of QCon, but I don't take care of yourself baby. Yeah, you know what it is? I have like a really, I'm a light sleeper with a very strong circadian rhythm. So like I can't sleep at off times. And I do generally struggle a lot with jet lag when I travel. But as, I was gonna say like as a CNCF employee, I can barely keep up. And like it is genuinely my job to support all of these projects. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Stephen did say in Slack and he's pointing out in chat that we really need a YACO song from Animaniacs' version of all the Sandbox Project. With the Poker Rap. Countries of the World song. Oh my God, the Poker Rap. It's a Poker Rap. I'm going, I'm with Celeste over Stephen here. I think this is a Poker Rap situation on an Animaniacs situation. Thank you. Yeah. Well, because here's the thing, the Poker Rap is ever expandable. And that is a requirement for what we have going on. Yeah. So somebody please write that. Somebody with musical talent. Somebody with actual musical talent, which is not me. Not Celeste. Maddie, you went to school for computer. I can write lyrics, but you don't want me recording it. And like there's been several requests already in the chat for singing. And you do know about Celeste, I don't want to speak for you, but we know that you don't want cat or mat singing. That's for damn sure. Why are there so many requests for us to sing? Is this like, is this a joke I've missed? Or... I think people just like singing. Life should be more like a musical. And Stephen is going through the Poker Rap in the chat. That's actually, that's correct. Yeah. So tell me about your hyper focus problems, Stephen. Tell me what you're hyper focused on at this point in your life and your development at like 12 or 13. Tell me what was Pokemon, is what I'm trying to say. And... Broberg says that it should be more like, it's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine kind of vibe, but that's kind of a lot more words in it than you think it does. Yeah. Stephen, if you would like to come on and do some karaoke, I'm sure. I'm sure. I'll send you the link, Stephen. DM me on Discord and I'll send you the link. I know that Maddie B is waiting with a hat, so. We can get, we can make this weird. Oh, that's not going to be weird. I guess I'll send Broberg the link. Yeah, send Broberg the link, Augustus, DM me and I'll send it to you. But on the subject of overwhelming, a question I got after my panel talk was from somebody who was new to Kubernetes and this was their second KubeCon and they were saying that they find it like really, really overwhelming. This is my third KubeCon. How many have you all been to? This is actually my first. I've had things happen in the past that made it not go. So it's, although I sort of, I guess the last virtual one sort of. I did say, I don't want to, I know you're going somewhere. I just want to call it when you said someone said there's overwhelming. We did have someone in the chat much earlier saying that they found the virtual experience much more calming and easier to handle than in-person. I find, I do find it much more calming than in-person. Just, well, okay. So my only frame of reference is KubeCon San Diego for in-person, which was extremely loud and overwhelming because I was chained to the booth the whole time. So I was in that extremely loud vendor hallway from like 7 a.m. to like 7 p.m. But the point I'm trying to make is that like KubeCon remains overwhelming. It just is like less. Just overwhelming in different ways. I love your hat. I figured with our foul sense of humor here, I'd pull out my Thanksgiving hat. I really love your hat. It's a terrible and hilarious tradition. We have about a dozen of these in the basement for a big Thanksgiving activity. Oh my God, I love it. We have Mr. Meadman in the wings and potentially Ian in the wings as well. Oh, amazing. So many fun for our ducks and geese. Ducks and geese and ducks and geese. And turkeys. And turkeys. Ian, do you have a hat? Nice. Wait, do I need a hat? Well, I mean. Mead is a strong word. Okay, we're gonna get a hat. I'll be right back. So this is the KubeCon wrap up. Funny. Yeah, and I wanna look for some other, while Ian's getting their hat, let's see, what are the things that people learn at KubeCon? This is what happens when you leave Maddie and Kat in charge of a wrap up cream. By the way. She was well known when this was her pose. It was like, yeah, this is gonna be it. There we go. Excellent choice. All right. Nice. Hell yeah. Well, Ian just looks fashionable. I know. I know. Sorry, they look badass and we look, I look like this. You look fabulous. Stephen, you need a hat. Stephen also looks fabulous. Stop there. You need a hat. He didn't always look fabulous. He's fashionable. I know. She looks like a shirt. Here you go. Oh, wow. Just right on hand with the fedora. And Broberg and Augustus, what were your highlights from the last 24 hours of KubeCon? Oh, wow. Us getting up early was definitely worth it. I was blown away, like Ian and Kat, you had a really meaningful talk this morning. Thought it was wonderful to be open and vulnerable about what it's like to be a contributor and try to get something done. I think people who aren't in it day to day don't necessarily see how many moving parts there are and as volunteers for this, like how little there is like, we don't have eight hours a day we're spending collaborating with each other. And there are thousands of people collaborating. It ends up exponential and there's a lot of ways it can break down. And we only learned by being honest about it through the process. So just thought that was a really necessary insight for how the Kubernetes sausage is made and really enjoyed it. Thank you. I really appreciate that. We sort of debated a little bit about whether it was too inside baseball for the general public. We were like, this really ought to be a contributor summit talk. And I'm glad that people were into it because yeah, I think that kind of like openness and transparency about like, what it actually takes to run a project this big is important, you know? And Kat said that she wasn't vulnerable on purpose. I knew that I was being vulnerable on purpose. I was throwing myself under the bus to make people feel less bad about the painful things we were talking about. But I didn't consider that that would come across as me being vulnerable. I'm generally pretty quick to talk about my failures and it, I don't know, that's something I've gotten used to doing over time. Now, real talk, you just worked backwards from the cosplay. I mean, and then we're like, how do we structure a talk around having the payoff at the end? We did have to sort of throw that one bit about the carpet in there in order to make that make sense. Yeah, we did. Yeah, that was. I mean, no shade. That's how the best art is made, you know? Augustus? You went with Anzept and you went with it. What? Yeah, how's your morning going? Fancy conference co-chair here. Morning, I, so I think at some point it's, well, it's 10 36 now. I, this is like morning part two or something. I don't really understand how time works anymore. And with Ian on the internet, like we know a bit about breaking time. So this is, this is a very odd situation to be in. Casual reach for the iced coffee. Sponsored by Le Colombe. So that's right, where you are is what you're saying. Yeah, buddy. Sponsored by this Starbucks salted caramel. The request for singing are relentless. You know, when all of us get off this thing, we're going to be ordering Starbucks, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I had this delivered immediately after my last talk. Baby, no, I'm going to bed. You're going to bed? Yeah, I mean, that's, so here's, that's the joy of like this weird virtual EU co-com where the majority of the people on this call are in North America, right? So I went to design school way back in the day and the lead art director of Muji has this really great book that you should read. And in this book, he was talking about some students that he was teaching design to, and he was like, I would like you to design something around the concept of vacation. Design a product. So like Muji is a hard good store, so design like a house good. And some people designed like fancy soft serve machines. Some people designed like tents or like hotel stuff. And there was this one guy who designed like a camping sleeping mat. And that was the thing that he submitted and designer. Muji was like, well, why do you think this like is emblematic of vacation? And the kid responded because the true essence of vacation is being able to sleep while other people are working. And so, I've like never forgotten that quote. It just like influenced me for the rest of my life. And so whenever I have the opportunity, I sleep while other people are working. One of the unique opportunities of what we're doing right now is to sleep while other people are working. And you bet I'm taking that opportunity. I'm taking this nap. You know what? Hell yeah. I support this. You're making better lectures than I am because I'm going to a very exciting meeting about PSP deprecations. Oh no. Doing the good work, Ian. Somebody's got to, you know? Yes, I always got to. Well, we'll all take a nap in your honor. I'll pour out a nap for Ian Coldwater. I appreciate it. Augustas, did you learn anything in the last day? This is, we're talking about things we've learned on this wrap up. What did you learn? Wow. Last day at KubeCon. Today or yet? Yeah, today is still today. What did you have a chance to sit in on? In the last 24 hours. How about that? We're on rave roads. It's not tomorrow until you go to sleep. So yeah. Okay, right. So Monday and Tuesday, I did not go to sleep. I did not go to sleep. And then I slept about like three or four hours last night to get ready for the keynotes. What I learned was plan things out a little better. I did a bunch of panic shopping and then I decided to buy myself some scotch and champagne. Nice. Blaming cat about the champagne. So yeah, I mean just plan things ahead of time if you think you need to do them, just do them because especially with the conferences, like the week just gets in front of you and then you're just part of the system for a while. So I am excited. I love KubeCon. I love the frenzy of conferences in general. I love that we're doing more work around getting people involved in ways that are closer to what feels physical-ish. But I'm just like fingers crossed for LA. Really excited to see you all. It's been too long at this point. I learned European time zones are easier while in Europe. But we are overcoming it pretty effectively. Yeah, the PANI conference series has been humbling and a reminder of what a lot of people experience at home when we're running conferences here in the United States where I'll be the first to admit you can get very East Coast or West Coast timing centric and forget there are people up in the middle of the night to join even just week to week for Kubernetes meetings, the SIG meetings. For me, it makes it there's a greater urgency again to find ways to make asynchronous decisions whenever possible so that people don't have to be up at weird hours and can still participate. And we're making strides in that across Kubernetes. The contributor experience team is doing async comms now primarily and we're writing that up right now. And I think it's just a good reminder that this is a global community and also we miss the hell out of each other in person. We'll eventually get there again. Anecdotally, because people were talking about meetings and making decisions and stuff. The Kubernetes releases usually happen on US Pacific time or classically happen on Pacific time because that's where all the Googlers were. So as we've kind of moved the release engineering mechanisms into the hands of community contributors we've had to like rethink how all of that works. 120 was actually the first cycle where we had Navaroon who is based in India as the release team lead. So all of the usual meeting times like that they go out of the window. So we've done a lot of work to do to focus on async communications. We've had a lot of conversations around not making decisions in meetings. If someone can't be at a meeting it's not fair. You're excluding them from the conversation. So Matt, we should collab on some of the contributor comms and the crossover between that and release notes and all of the stuff that happened in Kat and Ian's talk and some of the stuff that Celeste was talking about in Anecdot. Yeah, I feel like we're slowly building the interweaving of the different teams. It's like we all, I mean contributor comms was thought up by Paris and followed through less than a year ago really. So we're still in our infancy by Kubernetes standards. But yeah, I hope we can keep, yeah, let's hang out Steven. We've got some good stuff to do. Sick security once in on that call too because we've also been working on getting people to speak more across SIGs and across teams about like security relevant stuff because security is everybody's responsibility. It's not, please invite the documentation professional to this call. I have a resource for you to use. Please invite the professional. That's what the next 10 minutes are gonna be, just gonna be. I think most of us have been in and around all of these issues, right? Dockersham, PSPs, the kates.gcr.io migration, Hypercube was another one that I mentioned that went interestingly on communications. All of us have touched this and felt it. Yeah, let's get something together soon. Yeah, it's something that like keeps affecting the whole community. So the whole community. I wanna call something out that just happened in the chat that I think is really good and I think something we need to remember, especially those of us that are professional conference goers that miss in-person conferences because that's how we see our friends because if you're like me, that's your only friends. But so someone said that meeting each other person is fine, everyone's missing it, but they said remember for Europeans, this online conference thing is kind of a blessing because the best conferences are in the US and now we can join in them without paying $1,000. And there's one of the things that really happened with this year plus of virtual events is accessibility. And I hope, I really hope that as we move into, whatever the next phase of conferences are that we don't lose that completely because I think there really are a lot of, I think there's still a place for virtual events and virtual events done well, you know. Yeah, it's super important for students. Like I still have a lot to do with the coding bootcamp I graduated from and the CNCF generously allowed free conference passes for some students. There was an application process for it. And I got a few of my, I guess, well, they're not my students, I don't teach there anymore, but some students from their access to like something they normally would not have been able to attend, right? Because all of these industry conferences do have a bunch of like really, really valuable technical and training info for like early, early beginners, but not only do, does that involve like travel, which is expensive, conference passes are really, really, really pricey. Like I was never, I never went to a tech conference until I had an employer that was paying for my badge because it is so incredibly expensive. It is not normally accessible, but with everything virtual, like it's cheap. What's up, Ian? Can I put in a shout out though for DevOps days and for B sides out on the security side of the fence because those do actually make conferences more local, more accessible and more democratized. Like the coup cons and black cats of the world are not the only conferences out there. And I just want to shout out the small ones that are regional, cause those are awesome. Yeah. DevOps days. Ian, your regional DevOps days is one of the absolute best DevOps days that exists. Okay. But every DevOps days is amazing. But every DevOps days is amazing. Are you talking Minneapolis? Because I'm Minneapolis. Yeah. I mean, I started Chicago and I still will tell you Minneapolis is better. DevOps days MSP is the biggest one in the United States and is actually arguably the flagship DevOps days because DevOps days for a long time was organized by Bridget Cromhout, who was the actual best and. It is still, I think the biggest one outside of China, if I'm remembering that statistic correctly. I think that's about right. I mean, everything's different this year and especially actually the Minneapolis is hybrid this year and it's going to be much, much smaller because it has to be smaller to be safe. But that being said, it's still probably going to be the biggest one in the US by. It's going to be hybrid and I heard that, I heard the keynote is great, although I don't know who that is. Oh, hmm, it's interesting. Plant in that seed. I can't imagine who it might be. I may or may not be also popping by for that. So. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Last year, actually. And then Panopticon anniversary. I'm contractually obliged to talk about this one small piece of content before we finish up. So you may or may not have seen it mentioned. So there's a whole new set of programming coming to cloud native TV. And we finally can talk about it a little bit. So, and really, Steven, it made me think of it when you talked about last minute shopping because I still have some last minute shopping for wardrobe for my show to happen. And Tim Banks said he's going to help help trust me. And, you know, let's get a group DM or something going together. Last night, I was basically sending constant pictures in the fitting room. And she was like, yes, yes, no, yes. Well, when you see, let's put it this way. I'm surprising no one. My content for this new channel is a game show. So I'm dressing like a game show host. Oh, incredible. So differently than you normally do somehow? There'll be more bow ties in your hair. That's about it. Can you get like a sweet mic? A what? Oh, the stick mic? Like, yes. There are ideas percolating. I don't want to give too much away, you know, so. But it's not just that we've got a bunch of really great stuff. Kat has a show. I have a show which you'll find out more about when we get the teasers for our individual shows. But we have somebody new. I don't know if I was not supposed to say that much. I was joined by a wild Ava. A wild Ava. Ava, what's your favorite thing from the last night at KubeCon? Last night, this morning? Ty, it's the last night at KubeCon. It's a flat circle. We don't know. I'm on rave rules. It's still yes. It's still today. It's where I go to sleep. Steven knows what I'm talking about. I mean, the sun came up. So it's tomorrow, technically. Not until you go to sleep. Not until you go to sleep. Then it's tomorrow. Yeah. It's still today. Great. The thing from today at KubeCon was honestly like a bunch of awesome talks. You two, Kat and Ian, just for your talk, awesome vulnerability. I'd love to see it. Thank you. Thank you. Did you have a favorite talk other than ours? A favorite moment? A best shade of lipstick on a speaker? Oh. Sorry. I got a lot of questions all at once. Yep. And it's been a long day. So. That it has. Yeah. Which are? Yeah. Like technical talks for me. We're all yesterday at Planet of Security Day. And today it's been so much more like the community-focused talks that I've been going to. Brad, did you have any thoughts on Steven and Constance's tinfoil hat art? As always, on point. Where is the tinfoil hat, Steven? Oh, it's right here. Oh, OK. There you go. Excellent. Very thoughtful. It was pointy and it was too pointy. And I was like, I don't like the point. And, you know, I think now I should have went up. Fez situation. It's got Fez vibes. It's got the major Fez vibes. See, the thing is your barrel will actually be able to like prop that up. So I really do feel I feel like it's calling your name. You've got to commit to. You've got to commit to a hat with the hair because like once I do, I can't take it off. The hair is for the day. You know, I have the same problem because my hair is really, really thick. Like it's I have to like go through a bit of a fluffing situation once the hat comes off. The struggle is real. Oh, yeah. There's always like my hair is going to be like flat under there. Your hair is great. Like get out of here. Like your hair is perfection. You're insulting all of us. My hair is starting with a continuation of the talk scene of being vulnerable and pubic. Well, I got my first haircut in like years two weeks ago. So like literally that's that's this is just a mohawk that I stopped cutting 10 years ago. Kat says, well, looking like a perfect shampoo commercial. Oh, thank you. I haven't washed my hair in four days. It's dry shampoo, baby. Looking like a drag through commercial. See, the hat doesn't fit my head. So I have to like really be like it's all a very careful arrangement with like the headphone hairband helping out. This is very precariously balanced because the red hat fedoras say one size fits all. That is not true. Yeah. No, I've got an actually ready too small. And then when I put foil in it, so it's just sort of. Yeah, no, I have I have both a metaphorically and an actually large head when you earn the metaphorically large head. Well, I just noticed the hat actually looks like a grumpy guy like a grumpy face. So I tweeted about this. It's from Naruto. It's Naruto season one. He's got a hat that goes with his pajamas. So the story was I was watching my sister and I marathoned Naruto when we were both in university. So this is like 10 years ago. I was always really into Yatme. And she just like dipped back in. She was like, we're watching Naruto. You're coming along Celeste. You don't have a choice like 600 episodes. Let's go. And I was like, I've already read the manga. Like I don't need to do that. She was like, you don't have a choice. So that's how I ended up. Marathoning Naruto with my sister in university. And we saw Naruto with his pajama hat. And we were like, that's the best. I was like, I need the hat. And we're marathoning it around Christmas. And to feed the nerdiness of a younger me, there was an anime store in the local mall. And she was just like, I got you. I got you. This is your Christmas present. This is my Christmas present that year. No ridiculous hat that doesn't fit my head. It's great. I just had that gestalt moment of it. It went from like two kind of cute objects on your head to like, no, there's a grumpy person staring at me. Oh, yeah. And now that I see it, I can't not see it. My hat is one of the chat comments that means all clocks are broken for this week. Oh, OK, yeah. Good, yeah. I agree with that. So for KubeCon LA, I can't really do a baseball cap anymore with this hair. No, you totally can. That's a fucking fabulous look. Excuse my language. That is OK. The COC is a wonderful look. It is a delight. A delight. I'll go back to my children in the bed. The children in the bed. Oh, my gosh. Oh, that's perfect. Somebody had to do it, right? I mean, we said after. Of course, it's going to be me. Of course, like, it's got to be somebody. Uh, hey, Celeste, I'm almost through it. Hi. Do you want to do you want to host a Kolo event at KubeCon LA with me? For what? We've gone. We've I tried so hard when I got this job to, like, be a professional and then it just started. How long did that last? Not that you started hanging around like that last. It definitely started breaking down after I met Stephen. Stephen. I was doing pretty good until that point. Constantly blurring the lines between professional and whatever my aesthetic is. I will not like Kat. I'm not doing sucrose, by the way. I don't think I'm going to think on it. I'm going to think on it. Come on, you would be so cute as sucrose. So just for the chat, they're talking about cosplaying Genshin Impact characters. All of your money on a free to play RPG. Who's character I am. And I don't have to dress up for it because that person is already shortened, has my hair. So, yeah, play that one. Genkai from UYU Hakusho. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Wait. Am I really going to host KubeCon with you? Is this going to, is this really going to be a Kolo? Oh my God. Myself is going to be awesome. We're like the last time I was in the LA Convention Center was for Anime Expo like six or seven years ago. Well, it's like that. It's always going to like be in my mind as like the Anime Expo place. We will bring that same vibe. I'm sure like one of our employers will have a booth in the Expo Hall and we can have like get get the events team to have grab bags. Do you think we can invite Country Roll to give a talk? Like they must have something interesting. They're doing with the KubeCon. God, I just realized you're saying weeb and I never knew what that word meant. And I wonder if I won because I'm obsessed with making ramen these days from scratch. Is that does that fit in? I'm really just really just learning in public here. That's what we do. I think that was a little humble brag of Broberg making homemade ramen. Oh, yeah, I'm fine with that. I'm happy to have everybody on the stream. A question that is very important says beginning to wonder if cosplay is an essential skill for OSS competition. It is. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah, we're all cosplaying. At some point. Yeah, you just don't know who you have no mere image on the cameras messing me up. Yeah, I can't. Yeah. All right. We saw what we got maybe next week. We got to get into the the details of weeb. We've allegee so we can be prepared for for KubeCon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's important. I'll I'll write a request. Can't overwrite it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have reading up thoughts with our two minutes. Yeah, that's that seems like we should do that because we have about a minute and a half. All right. Make it quick. Guests starting with Celeste. Everything I've said today about weeds does not reflect the views of my employer. Thank you very much. As far as you know. Broberg. Mine is there are plenty of places to contribute. No matter how new you are, whether it's non code or not, you are very welcome here and everyone is welcome as they are. It's it's a place to be there. I want to say that I love the class of new community and that you belong in it. Person who is watching and listening to this, no matter who you are and you have things to contribute, no matter who you are. And we're really excited to have you here. Augustus. What are we doing? What's your last 10 seconds or less? Yeah, more community hugs. Like seriously, you belong here. You belong here. We miss you. We love you. We welcome you. Hope to see more of your contributions soon and enjoy the rest of the conference. Check your schedules and all that good stuff. Ava. All of that. And, you know, committee security is the thing. There's some awesome security talks. Diversity is a security issue, too. Everybody's welcome. Hell, yeah. Well, thank you all for coming last minute onto this thing that was supposed to just be a me and Maddie retrospective on what day. Instead it was seven of us being insufferable together. For like 400 people. So and thank you to the 400 or so people that for some reason watched us be insufferable for an hour. We love you and we will see you tomorrow. Love y'all. Have a good night, everybody. Bye.