 Good afternoon everyone and thank you for being here for this special installment of the Professor Anthony J. Santoro business law lecture I want to welcome especially Tony and Pauline's family members who are here with us and I know you will be joined By more later. Thank you for being here President Farrish Members of the university trustees law school board of directors faculty staff alumni and Particularly our panelists This lecture series which is funded by Tony's admirers and there are many Has brought to the law school leaders in business and in government to talk about the gaming industry to talk about the regulatory Environment for startup companies to talk about disruption in the market for the delivery of legal services The FCC and consumer protection the SEC and securities regulation And for today's lecture, we are joined by a remarkably accomplished group of RW law alumni whose careers in business and business law have been Shaped by Tony and his work. I want to congratulate them on their successes and thank them for taking the time to be with us today to help honor Tony so Without further ado, I would like to welcome to the podium the man of the hour hours I suppose Professor Santoro to say a few words Thank You Michael. I noticed that when you said admirers of Tony Santoro my entire family started giggling We're gonna be careful what we say seriously. I am absolutely excited to be here this Lecture series was started by an alum Brian Ali and his colleagues and it's just been a wonderful Series, but I'm especially proud to be here today because I've got five former students here Who are going to give this lecture and I am deeply appreciative of? They're taking the time out of their busy schedules to do this, but I will grade them in any event and Can we revoke the a degree Seriously, I don't want to take any time. Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us And I'm looking forward to a spirited Panel discussion. Thank you. We're gonna jump right in so we can figure out who's gonna get the Cali on the panel today So as much as we know that you all love hearing people's bios The panel in its infinite wisdom has decided that we rather jump right in and skip that portion You do have the bio the very impressive panel members in front of you If you'd like to read that but we're actually just gonna kick it off with each panel member briefly introducing themselves And if there's any fun stories embarrassing moments favorite lessons about Tony They'd like to share Encourage them to do that as well. And can I start down on this this Corey side of the table? Corey Hildart currently the chief legal officer of a boutique economic consulting firm that focuses on expert testimony for gender pay equity Again enough about me, we're gonna start with a little bit of Tony or professor Santone Santoro as I say at a difference I started my new role a year ago. I walked in my direct reporting line is to the CFO at the company After our first conversation, I realized very quickly. I had to go back to my notes from 2006 Business and partnership tax don't understand the macro of the company and to understand what was important to my now boss the CFO But I want to say just one thing more macro level about the school and professor Santoro's influence I think when I think back to my time here, and I think of professor Santoro I think about being a young school and Going into an industry entering industry whether I knew it or not that as we discussed earlier barters a little bit in prestige Almost inordinately and as a young school within the first ten or so graduating classes. You haven't really built up that Network that market penetration that history to build upon and you know, I think it was really important for us whether we knew or not to have mentors like professor Santoro who've ended credibility to our pursuits and I think I can speak particularly on behalf of a lot of the Tax LLM's I mean I don't know if we'd have such an extensive network at the big four right now if it weren't for professor Santoro So I think it's For me, that's quite important and more so for the community as a whole I think to take that exemplar and apply it in our pursuits to kind of better at the community better than network and further that It's really going to benefit us all individually, but as a community as a whole I'm Jim Coughlin currently I'm the Dutchess County Comptroller. It's an elected position one of seven in New York State I'm a little freaked out It's the first time I'm back to the law school since I graduated in May of 2006 a lot of changes Calling Corey on the phone dial a friend like I don't even get here. What's going on and The town's gentrified. It's kind of changed and You know, we spend such a critical part of our lives here In the crucible under a lot of stress and so there's a lot of emotions if I go to flim today I hope you can ask everybody to pardon me my first came here I Professor tights for civil procedure 1L and Scared to live in hell out of me every day I sat there I prayed every day don't call me don't call me I Then had her as a 3L in conflicts, and I'm sure it changed and she probably was saying please don't talk today coffin I Had a sense of business experience working overseas Before I decided to become a law student late in life So it definitely was more interested in the business side of law here And so it's natural that I acclimated to Professor Santoro What an amazing mentor Building upon Corey's thoughts though. I don't know why He and his lovely wife pony would ever let a degenerate like me into their inner circle I thank them for that. It's made such a difference in my professional and personal life We'll get into a lot of good stuff today to talk about but you know just want to say that My first time with professor Santoro's class. He announced everybody that he doesn't believe in bumping up for participation And being a cocky young kid. I said well Professor, then what's my motivation to participate? thinking I had won the argument and The sparkle in Professor Santoro's eye that we all know well look to me about a second said well, Mr. Koff and I reserved the right to bump down That's like But regardless I'll pass it on Um I'm Elizabeth Kola Giovanni. I'm a lecturer on now at Bentley University teaching business law tax law Following in my mentor's footsteps my weird background I started as a Pre-med major here at the undergrad Roger Williams when Professor Santoro was actually president Santoro and And my funny we well a couple of weird stories is I actually the this building was just built Dating myself as my undergrad and I Was a junior and I was being inducted into the honor society and President Santoro came up to me because he knew my dad because my dad taught here at the math Department And he was like I just wanted to come up to come up to you and say that I'm sure your father is pretty proud And I'm proud of you and this is the president of the university saying this to me as a junior in college and I never forgot that and He every time I went to events. I would always talk to him and he remembered my name Out of thousands of students in the undergrad. He remembered my name and that just impressed me And I diverged and instead of going into medicine I went out to LA and said I'm gonna go into the film industry Don't know why I did that And didn't like it and wanted to come back. Well, I did like it in a way because I learned business I was learning business law I was actually working with a lot of lawyers and agents and actually liked it and I was thinking of going into contract law And I called him up and I said I think I'm gonna come back home and go to law school what do you think and he took me on a tour of the building and Got me hooked And got me hooked on tax. I thought I was gonna go contract And he was like why I think you need to take Fed tax You're gonna take Fed tax if you want to go into business and I was like, ah as every other student is like tax And I took the Fed tax and I took every tax class he ever taught here afterwards and so He I'm trying to at least follow in his footsteps Minimally because I could never fill his shoes. He's amazing My name is Corey Billidow. I am a tax attorney. That's what I do So I guess I'm I followed in his footsteps as a practicing lawyer I worked at a large law firm of 50 plus lawyers and we did everything immigration law tax law all that stuff But then I ended up leaving and joining a smaller I don't like to use the word boutique, but it's a boutique tax firm and one of our other attorneys Catherine Windsor who's a Student former student of Professor Santoro and got her LLM and tax law as well But so I moved over to a small firm. There's eight lawyers. That's pretty much all we do 90% of my work is all tax law. It's Transactional tax law. I like to tell people I I help people. They say what do you do? I say well, I help people avoid paying taxes I help them to defer taxes and I help them convert ordinary income to capital gains and and so That's what I do. I also do a little bit of tax controversy work But Catherine runs that department at the firm. That's people who have problems with the IRS Who need help and assistance and people that why don't you do that anymore? And I say well, most of those people don't have money They're they're not the people I like to work with I will say Yeah, maybe I'm not supposed to say that There are no ethics credit. Yeah I'm all I've graduated. I will say I can say that I would not be here today without Professor Santoro because I When I was about to graduate he said I took all his tax courses everyone there was six of them He even taught tax stories, which was painful We made it through it was a one-credit class and I was like, well, let's take this when he ever needs a credit to get out of here We took that class but then after I he said, well, what are you gonna do? I said, I don't know. I said I like tax. He said, well, why don't you get your LLM in tax? I said, I don't even know what that is. What is that? I didn't know there's such a degree as an LLM in tax So I ended up doing that went to BU in 2007 went full-time and Got my master's in tax law and since then just have been working in that area So I would say my one story funny story because about Professor Santoro is we have the I don't they still have the auction Every year and so he bids the dinner and so the group of us Me and Jimmy and a few others bid on it and we said we're gonna pick you up in a limo And so we went to his house in a limo and so he's showing us the house and we're like this is great And so then the best part was he opens up the closet and he has a bar in the closet. He says well, let's drink Okay, here we go. So we thought that was the coolest thing that is a bar in the closet So that's my funny Professor Santoro story, we need to go back I Love that tax stories class. I think we spent we were in a lot of the same classes Actually, I also took I think every single class I could which is at least six of them So as I was preparing for this I was thinking back over all the lessons that I've learned from Professor Santoro And of course, there are many many many substantive Lessons I still have my notes as well. I took them with me from law school through my LLM program kept building them Still have them through several computers, right? They keep getting transferred over But also there were a lot of lessons about lawyering and lessons about life as well Some in the classroom some over glasses of wine and various Italian restaurants throughout Providence as well So I think Tony was the first person who really taught me how to take all the different pieces of what we were learning in other Classes all the different legal knowledge and the skills we were developing to put that together With the business insight that we needed to have And the goals of the clients had to really be a valuable member of that client team And there are many life lessons along the way as well I was remembering how when I first started in Tony's classes I learned much more slowly than I'm proud of that I had a terrible poker face when I started in law school because I was having these moments regularly where another student would be speaking and Tony would point to me and say miss a her and disagrees with you, and I was quiet as it And I thought not only does he know the internal revenue code by heart. He also is telepathic I mean it took me a little while to learn that that's not in fact what was happening, and I've worked on that somewhat Over time. All right, so let's dig into some of the questions that we have from our panelists So first we want to hear about what are the advantages of a legal education? What is it about the way we're trained to think as lawyers and as business lawyers that really Translates and gives us a professional advantage or we're going to ask Cory and Cory to give us some insight into that topic Sure, I can jump in I think it's something to be careful of when you're talking about the skill set you're learning as an attorney in law school You're learning a lot. You're getting a more macro view of a business But you're getting it in the academic sense So I think one way to view this question is to talk about what aren't you learning and what you should be asking now as you pursue These classes whether it be business partnership tax biz org that sort of thing For me coming out of college. I went straight to law school. I lack business experience It's easy to go into an organization with all of the academic background, but not have any of the functional So I think if you can harness The academic the intellectual side and be inquisitive On your first day be open You have a much more pragmatic holistic view of a company For instance when I go in I've never been in house per se with a company I've been on second minute a few, but I wasn't a per se corporate attorney in house My first role being in the last year. I knew exactly Where to step in what questions to ask and that adds a lot of validity to your position from the start Especially when you're a corporate attorney You are a non-revenue generating attorney. You're a cost center So you have to show you understand what the business is doing. What is their end goal? You have to achieve their objectives. So I think bringing that all together what you're learning a lot in law school is Core business skills risk management critical reasoning. I Noted corporate structure being a huge one. I mean, we're a small organization We have about 90 full-time employees Revenue-wise we have big corporate issues So it's for me. It's how do you Measure that between The legal knowledge I have but also respecting the business and how do I integrate with the business? And I think if you attend these classes you have one piece Ask the questions and put it together as a whole by the time you get out of here And you you'll understand how to navigate through the system as you go I think that What I learned is a lawyer that I took As a law student that I took out from here is it really teaches you how to ask questions of your clients Because most of your clients don't tell you everything a lot of times they tell you very little and so you really have to be able to ask probing questions about What they're trying to accomplish Gathering information Pulling it out of them because sometimes and I always tell my clients I say look what you think may not be important Maybe important and so you got to tell me everything And so it's it's the process of asking those questions making sure you get the information you need And that was critical learning that in professor Santoro's classes particularly as a I mean I transactional tax lawyer Most people are saying oh, I don't want to pay taxes. I mean, so that's what I do I tell I've got to figure out what they're trying to accomplish and how can we Eliminate taxes accomplishing what they want to accomplish because sometimes you most of the time you can figure it out if you have the right information But it's just getting that out of the client And I worked for three years before going to law school. I worked in the financial services world So I I didn't come into law school right out of college And so I kind of worked I worked with business owners before and that's why I gravitated towards the transactional side Also, I clerked in a litigation firm and couldn't stand it. So I I went that direction and thankfully We had someone like professor Santoro who taught all those tax courses because without that I I wouldn't have gone to BU and got my masters or I wouldn't have been able to wave out of classes or learn from him And understand what people are looking to accomplish as a business owner And you come to you you get clients in all different phases of their lives They could be starting up They could be in the middle of their their lives operating their business or it could be their exit planning And and so understanding what they're looking for what they're trying to accomplish Knowing the questions you need to ask and kind of digging into it and And prying that information was out of them is critical and you learn all that as a law student in all the classes not just the tax courses Now if I can jump back in I think there's a theme developing there We're focused a lot on objective and taking that holistic view of whatever situation you're in It sounds intuitive But it really is a core part of kind of the Socratic method is being inquisitive Understanding empathy kind of emotional intelligence So I think that's important to focus on on the soft skills you're learning in law school And I just I wanted to make that point and bring it together. I think it was a well said by Cory I didn't say which Cory So in the business startup clinic that I run we work with a lot of Entrepreneurs and I have a friend from my class who is a lawyer But also runs a very thriving real estate business And I put a question to her that I hear from a lot of students who are aware that sometimes lawyers will Pursue an entrepreneurial path whether it's something outside of the law or we have a lot of Discussions about how being an attorney is actually is being an entrepreneur or whether or not you're in a firm And that question that I hear is the way we're trained to think as lawyers the way we identify risk mean Maybe we're not a good match for entrepreneurship because we're constantly worried about that risk And that's a big part that you have to embrace if you're going to be an entrepreneur And I love her answer that no you should be less intimidated It's actually a wonderful match because you're going to always see these risks coming that no one else is able to To identify so talking about alternative career paths What types of paths do you think are a good fit for law grads? Maybe working in some of your own? Experiences especially those law grads that are focused in business law and we're going to ask Jim and Liz to chime in on this topic Okay Thanks, um I've always been a weird eclectic person. So, um, I Got my LLM after right after law school With sandro's encouragement We actually a bunch of us did about four or five of us Right from our JD went to BU to get the LLM And the LLM kind of teaches you which tax because you know tax in and of itself There are niches within tax and even within those tax niches are more niches And I went even I went further down the rabbit hole I went into international tax law and then I even went further down the rabbit hole and went into corporate international tax law Um, and I went the accounting firm route. I didn't do The traditional law firm route And went to EY. I went to Ernst and Young up in Boston right away Right after the LLM And I worked there for a few years. I actually kind of Slowly worked my way out of Accounting firms But what I found there is that there's a great need for lawyers in accounting firms in fact Especially with the whole Arthur Anderson thing. They know they need them. Um, but there's this kind of Especially when it comes to tax, there's kind of this banter between Tax attorneys being there and tax accountants being there because tax accountants don't understand Law and lawyers can't really speak accounting. So there was there's this constant Kind of bumping your heads all the time and there's always you try and find that middle ground And my weirdness was I worked in accounting firms for about six years And then Moved on to adjunct teaching and now teaching full time And I actually have the best of both worlds because I actually have business students now So being at Bentley, they were all business and they come in with the business mindset So they're expecting facts figures and they're they want to be right on there And when I start teaching tax law and having to teach them code and having them to understand how to Really break apart the code and analyze That's a process in and of itself and I think lawyers have that advantage in that they can look at the code And know how to read it and know how to break it down and know how to make an analysis off of it Whereas people coming in from the business side just want the answer And so I think there needs to be Both, I mean you need to you need to have the law degree to understand where they're coming from it as well And then also in my consulting practice being bringing up entrepreneurship One thing that Bentley does encourage, which I really like Is they want a lot of their lecturers to Be in the world be consultants or be tax attorneys Because they still want us to bring in what's really going on. They want us to be fresh They want us to know what's going on in the law and they want us to bring that to our classes And so now that I have my I have a small consulting practice in the side Which I like because I don't have to do tax returns anymore Which I hated doing in the accounting firms And I can I can sit down, you know with my clients and really say okay Let's let's walk through this and let's see what you really want out of this What do you want? I do small business and high net worth individuals because they really kind of know where they want to be in 10 years And so that's kind of working with them, which is really great. But I mean there is risk I mean I got the first year out. I was scared to death because I knew the risk I knew about liabilities. I knew that they could sue me at any moment And I had to be on my game, but at the same time, right I knew those risks and so I was ready for him at every every step or hopefully Yeah, I When I was graduating I sent out a boatload of resumes and I was very shocked when didn't get a response back from a single one We all come into law school with a romantic notion that You know, we're going to be in that law firm and work your way up and someday you're arguing that amazing case You're getting the the corner office the law partnership and all that sort of stuff The reality is it's only for a select few And the realistic aspect is you're Taking the bar. You don't have a job I passed in new york in the mass bar and So I'm like, what am I going to do? I'm on the different websites and stuff and I was so Clueless and naive. I didn't even understand what a contract attorney was. I thought I was for an attorney that wants to do contracts And I didn't realize it's because you just you know are getting taken in for a short time to firm for this particular project Eventually I reached out to somebody and said what the hell is this contract stuff because Joe farside was doing a few other people were and I couldn't figure out what what I was missing So I got taken in by a law firm in New York City and soon afterwards I got on the business side of discovery Which is uh, you know, something that maybe a lot of attorneys don't realize There's the nuts and bolts of doing law and then there's the operational side logistics and management of attorneys and the business process of law firms And it's something that maybe we don't stress in law schools because we're so Focused on the love of the law and all this romantic notions of I'm going to be doing this and Law firms need business people to run operations to stay successful and make money as that's really I wouldn't say what we're all here for but definitely what I'm thinking and uh, so I ended up running at one point Contract attorneys, I had 75 contract attorneys in a room and my job was to run discovery for a multi Million dollar lawsuit. We were going through 2 million Pages of documents and pairing things together and you got to keep people focused in the room. What's our goal today? What are we looking for motivating people? And then tying it in with what the you know senior You know associate that I got an interface with writing memos On how we're going to you know pair this group of documents to this particular motion Which has a deadline on this date and you're running, you know Microsoft project because we got a deadline coming up and I got to make sure that we find the right document That makes sure this thing has some value in way when we go in front of the the judge Um, I found that fascinating only because that's a lot of stuff I had done in previous to my life. Uh, was I disappointed that I wasn't a practicing attorney? Yeah, maybe initially, you know, what are you gonna say to people? I don't know. What do you tell your parents me? You're like, what are you doing? I see tracks of law. I would pay the money for But you know, but where was it exciting? Was it something that you get value from? There's a lot of aspects of the legal world that doesn't deal with practicing law And it's something that you know, I would say when we're talking in this topic right here about Alternative paths to law firms or legal work. It's something to think about Definitely as Kay said, you know entrepreneurship Bentley has the MBA program, which my sister went to Being in a legal mind and having your own business. Wow, you can cut a lot of corners on legal needs You know, there's so much open to any attorney who Goes through the crucible of law and especially in this great You know university that I've been so proud to be part of and associated with but the business thinking the Logic and reason over emotion, but not confusing Emotion with passion because you must be passionate about what you do But you can't let emotion cloud your legal thinking There's so many ways you're going to apply that in so many aspects of life So many different career paths because everybody at the end of the day whether you're just you can just go to work for a company But they value the logic and reason that we learned here And you of course get promoted quickly. They they know they can rely on you You're already thinking like you said risk assessment liability. Did somebody forget that? Do we even have a procurement policy legit or even an appropriation law on a pilot? And there's so many things now as You know I kind of back ended out of New York City because I wanted to start off a family with my wife And I didn't want to have to do a Two-hour commute each way to the city and then sit and you know for 12 hours in a law firm or 15 hours How am I getting out of My law firm in New York City and I kind of fell into the comptroller World here near in New York State in duchess county, but I was able to bring a very interesting perspective 100 million dollars of county Funds are paid through contract payments That's all clauses. Is that a legal payment? Did they even meet our objectives? What the hell's the scope but Just understanding Every thing about what we learned for the first definitely two years of law school here is applicable Everywhere in the career world, whether it's Hollywood or other places or I think you're all it's you know, they value the critical thinking So it's just you know, don't think that your life is shoehorned into a law firm You ultimately potentially will be disappointed if you don't get that career path They're going to just burn you up and spit you out and then you're then looking at well I guess I want to be a sole practitioner. You know practitioner. That's tough, too So, you know never let any just don't go into the cattle sheet thinking when you're taking the bar Well, now I got to find a job in a law firm when you're doing resumes. So he was I probably took up two I actually want to say a little a little shout out to um Don't think I I always say like if you want to do business Or any other law I even say this to my students You should take at least the federal taxation because I think federal taxation is the basis of every law You're going to be involved in I think the only law the only law I can think of that tax wouldn't be involved in would be criminal law Because whether it's property family law, which people don't realize Business law, of course There's it touches every aspect and I think to be a good lawyer You need to let your clients know they're either going to be taxed on this or not And I think a lot of even in slip and fall cases Certain areas are taxed certain areas aren't and a lot of clients think oh, I'm getting a windfall I'm just going to get this money and take it home. No, there's a portion that you have to pay the piper for so and I think that that Having a tax class is the basis really for anything not just even in business as well And even one further the the business planning course that pressure santoro taught was also one of the most Comprehensive and all inclusive of everything, uh, you know every day, you know from the start me like all right. Here's the Uh hypothetical concept of a business. What do you do whether it's your form in a corporation llc A general partnership and you know every morning This is like a lob a lobster pot. He's to put your money in hard to get your money out Every day. Jesus. It's a lob surprise That whole thing we went through liability went through payroll went through Fike and everything and you're sitting there and your head's exploding. You're like, how do I even form a company in this world of American regulations and government and try to make a profit and so both of those I think if you're an attorney Any type of finance taxation and more importantly if you're actually thinking of not being a formal law firm You know person Some business planning so that you have that ability to when client comes to you if you can explain like What's your goal like Cory was saying? Well, what is your objective so that I know how to best? Represent you I just something to touch on that you said I you know as a practicing tax lawyer Saying that it affects every area of law. I mean it doesn't there any family law lawyers in here or anyone teach Oh, all right. Good. So I can make fun of them. They are the biggest committers of malpractice. I see For a tax law, you're gonna go there. I get so many calls From family law lawyers talking about alimony and child support and and property distribution 401k trying to divide it up. It's just you've got to have a basic understanding of taxation in any area of the law So if you're mad at me, you're mad at me I got stuck in a sub-hatchpot gym was talking to um, I I have to pause and note that It's interesting that the better part of this panel actually is now down the teaching path as well as following in all these other footsteps And I can't help but notice that um, liz has clearly learned from uh, Tony's methodology because as you heard repeatedly that there was a pattern to his behavior Just take federal income Then it's try another one and let me tell you about this llm program, right? So you're I like that you're laying the same groundwork. It's definitely So switching from alternate career paths to the law firm career paths I think it'd be helpful for students in particular to hear about how law firms is about have evolved How law firms are uh, like a business even though we don't always think about it that way necessarily How has the partnership track changed? So go back to cori and cori and ask them if they would talk to us about law firms How they're changing and what should uh students know about the law firms of today and what you might see for the law firms of tomorrow Uh, I've worked at a large law firm and now I'm one of the partners at a small law firm that has eight lawyers there are three partners and I think the big law firms they've changed In that they've created kind of different classes of Partners in that you have the equity partners and then you have what they call income partners Or what I call fake partners So they've got the they've got the different classes, but they've they've done it in a way That it's still the same model in the sense that It's about dollars in the door You've got to be able to bring money in the door to get up to the equity level And if you're not, I mean it's not your career. Just you're not going to reach that level You make the living be a successful lawyer and you can be a great lawyer But I always say to be a successful lawyer You really need one of two things and to be a great lawyer you're going to have two I mean you've got to be able to do the work Because the clients come to you with problems and they want them solved And you've got to be great at your lawyering and you got to be able to bring money in the door So if you can do one of those two things, you'll be fine If you can do both of them, then you'll be very successful in your career as a lawyer Most people can only do one of them And and so those people, you know, they're fine. They're successful And you see a lot of lawyers who just bring money in but they don't really practice as much anymore They they're just they're kind of their job is to bring clients in bring revenue in because it's a the bottom line It's a business and the it's shifted from where Probably used to be more considered a profession Where today it's a business and it's run like a business and I would say I've been you know graduating 2006. It was I have moved along in my career I started I was an associate and you just like you go to work. You get a paycheck I mean that was the bottom line. I mean you just you did your work and you you were billing and and hopefully collecting Law firm was collecting But then as you kind of move up and you see okay Well, this is a business We've got people to pay and you have overhead and you have all this stuff that goes along with that and You know worried about keeping the lights on and meet and payroll and all that good stuff And then as you kind of become an owner you look at all that becomes even more important because You're the last one to get paid So you you've got to run it like a business and I think that's one of the things is I've kind of talked to other lawyers It shifted from more of the profession to the business component and and running it like that and you know, you still I mean it's still a profession, but it's it's it's pushed over to that side and You know, that's been my experience And working at a big firm too. It's just I left Because I didn't I couldn't stay on the politics and the bureaucracy of the you know, you got a management committee I'm like, oh my god. It's like it's like someone would say it's like a cruise ship to get anything done It just turns slowly You know it was it was impossible to make any changes and doing And to kind of do anything with the firm It just you go to the management committee and then you had to go to the partners And so it was just it was two years before anything change when you go to a smaller place It's much more. Yeah much more control. It's a little bit more family oriented and Hopefully Catherine's happy at the firm Yeah, she's one of our great lawyers does a great job. So that's that's been my experience No, I agree. I think I'll add a little historical context here You know going way back I was fortunate enough in my time here to do the lock program in monday Where I actually was with a barrister for a month and a half or something like that And going back to the profession. I mean, I remember I actually put robes on in a wig at one point I wasn't supposed to The barrister told me to um, they had a little pouch on the back And I said the heck is this little pouch on the back of the robes for it? It's because you couldn't touch the money As a barrister so they would tuck the fee into your pouch And it was more of a profession. They didn't even negotiate their own fees They actually had an outside party negotiate fees. So I think up until recently it was viewed as a profession It's just a historical part of the industry I point to the financial crisis as a major tipping point I think for a lot of us we graduated in honor around that time What you saw between 0709 is big and law 100 and I point them out because we kind of look to them as the exemplary party in any law practice They gutted their mid-range associates. I mean large layoffs Creates two issues One who is the next generation to support the outgoing partners and sustain the business? You have basically no one for a five-year stretch The other part that I think of is It changes the roles and Cory alluded to people are more functional now at law firms The partnership role now is a client relationship and management role You have to have two skill sets you need to develop relationships And you need to maintain revenue generating relationships to make partner at a big law firm real partner not the fake partner And there's a place for people who want to be non-partner trap They don't call it non-partner trap, but if you're not revenue generating you need to be a thought leader You can do very well very stimulating But if your goal is partner You're not going to practice long much You're going to deal with people You're still going to ask the questions find their objectives You're going to lead a lot of things, but it's a different functional role and I'm being harsh I mean it's a little more nuanced than this, but I think it's important to see but What we're seeing now is around the time of the financial crisis law firms were investing big in other Aspects of law. So we talked about contracting large-scale review. A lot of firms invested heavily in large-scale data centers management review Created a huge cost center. They weren't passing through to the client. They were they thought they would build it in The problem is at that era you were operating as silos under partners partners didn't share too frequently what their billable rate was Partners, you have your rack rate, which everybody knew the high-end rate You know it's called $1500 for a partner at a amon 100 They were building much differently with their own clients. They wouldn't share that They just shared the overall revenue number. No one looked into margins too much That partner did great this year. He might have had a 20% margin, but he had x million in revenue What you're seeing now is firms becoming more savvy There is a role I see growing and has been growing for a while, which is like a legal operations officer You see it both on the corporate side and in the law practice These are typically attorneys. They typically have some understanding of the business organization partnerships and tax Um They are kind of the conduit bringing everybody together So not only does a partner who wants to be a real partner have to be revenue generating. They have to add cross functional value You can't just generate revenue to be one of the upper tier real partners You have to bring value to other practices and what practice have we discussed today that is connected with every practice It's taxation So if you were in position as a tax attorney, you can help a lot of people cross functionally sell cross functionally deliver So I think the key here is that There are business opportunities within law firms. That's one round legal operations officer. It's not a purely practicing role It can be a non-attorney as well but also Using that business savvy to be a cross functional leader in a law firm is very important going forward I think just to add to what corey said is That one thing they kind of don't prepare you at law school for is that The practice of law is sale. I mean the part of it is that clients just don't show up at your door I I probably do 20 plus speaking seminars a year in front of cpas Who refer me work? I mean that's mainly who I get my work from at cpas who refer clients to me And so all of that, you know, you don't think hey, you're gonna I've got people who go. Oh, I don't have any clients. I'm like, well, you're not going to get any clients sitting behind the desk You've got to get out there and meet people. You have to go to lunches You have to do the teaching and the speaking And the writing and all of the stuff as a tax lawyer that you want people to refer business to you for So it's it's sales. Yeah, nobody wants to call it that but it is that's what it is You know, it's sales marketing practice development is the the work the words they use at the large law firms to make it sound nice But that's what it is. I think the saying is to bill 40 you have to do hating That's that's the saying especially with the smaller firms. You don't have a built-in practice development team of marketers There's two things I wanted to touch on we had talked about on the call One of them being There's more specialization too now You know, as we see the actual practicing attorney pool shrink at big law firms They are kind of specializing in what we're seeing is these people are actually leaving the big law firms Long-tenured partners creating high quality boutique firms that have amla 100 clients It is a trend that's slowly creeping into the new york market, but Our clients at my firm are law firms I see our ultimate clients are corporate or largely financial institutions They are more increasingly going to these boutique firms because they know the people and the cost structure is different The billable rate is different So there is a trend towards the boutique Yeah, I mean I 100% agree that you have large Practices at at major law firms who leave and set up a boutique firm because it's just you can control costs control overhead And the financial crisis which you alluded to Really showed that these companies a lot of the large companies are still concerned about costs and what they pay for legal fees And you can control that in a group And you also as going the boutique group you've seen law firms go away from the names It's you know, they'll call like morning star law or something so you don't get in a fight Well, I want my name on the the mast head and all that stuff So you you see that kind of creeping in and it's more building something that's generational And not you know five different names on them. It's it's an interesting question too Consulting firms are creeping into the law space And I think the quintessential example right now is I believe pwc just opened a It's organized separately, but it's part of pwc and dc It's a group of international credentialed attorneys that are providing international legal advisory services in dc for cross border Consulting firms across the globe are the largest employer of attorneys period Not law firms law firms if you look at the us I think there are maybe 30,000 pure law jobs opening up every year. It's not much I think it went to the kind of alternative legal career as a real option But I think the point is are law firms ethically going to be able to compete by getting into other businesses That's a question. We haven't seen on that ethical side. You're not technically allowed to have another business But as consulting firms impede on that space and take the revenue away from a non pure legal standpoint A lot of law practices in pure law Are we going to see law firms either? Dispand further into boutiques or try to Absorb some of that external legal practices question for the future So for those of you who are in red island You may know and for students that trend that you're hearing where an entire practice group in a specialty area will Leave to become a boutique that is playing out in red island and as well. So it's not just in some of the bigger cities So, uh, you also have the the power of telepathy. My students have heard me on the business development soapbox a little bit So part of the trend there you're hearing that law firms are becoming more focused on business And what we're really seeing is that business side is more important for every member of the law firm or readily apparent Throughout and not just when you get to that management level and being able to start business development marketing earlier on Uh, not necessarily bringing business on the first day, but to start developing those skills right away is a it makes a big difference as you Move your way along and the wonderful thing for those of us in tax I'm sure you would agree if you have a tax expertise And you can talk and explain like a normal human being to other people, right? You actually have a huge advantage on the marketing side So switching back a little bit to the non-traditional career path What sort of skills would you suggest that students focus on and develop if they are interested in whether in the short term or the long term Going down a non-traditional Legal path and if you have any stories about skills that have been helpful to you successes Failures lessons that would be great as well. And we'll ask uh, Liz and Jim to chime in on that On topic So, uh Skills that are essential moving forward That are not what we've learned here. Well, what we should retain here Roger Williams does a great job in instilling just great loss lawyer skills, but uh Keep your humor. Keep your humanity Dignity of dealing with people We can get into the fight and just You know, whether you're you know moot court or you're doing all this stuff and we do our debates and it's about beating somebody or other stuff You know, that is that aspect of law and it's thrilling and exciting at times Uh, but remember that, you know, generally in the real world, uh, it's about like connecting with people. You're selling yourself You're you know, there is a humane side to law And it should be, you know, definitely expounded upon definitely, uh Be proud to be that aspect of an attorney Skills I think we've heard all today is understanding some basic taxation or some basic business No matter what aspect of law you're going to do a guarantee You're going to have to see some financial statements come across you whether it's family law because you've got to figure out You know, if there's a disbandment of some sort of uh, business entity Do a divorce or something or wilson estate and trust Uh, something's coming across your desk. It's going to be a substantial financial statement Uh, you better have a decent understanding of what's an asset liability. What's real Debt how is that even incurred what's being carried for? Uh, so Everyone should not be scared in numbers I think you're going to have a tough time being an attorney in the real world. Um I would definitely say don't be afraid to say you don't know something I wish I had talked to every attorney when I was like in my 3l It was already practicing here and saying I have no clue what the hell i'm doing and where the hell i'm going And I think that if any person ever comes up to me as it is as a you know, a 3l or 2l You know, don't be ashamed of it. I'd be like you're smart to come talk to me because I didn't know either and and we should be encouraging Practicing you know, you know inspiring attorneys that it's okay not to know everything Uh, even today is you know attorneys. We don't know everything. That's why we have uh experts everywhere Everybody outsources because a little bit outside of my comfort zone I'm not really the best person for this, you know, and I'll hold your hand as I touch You know take you to a person I trust who's got that skill set Uh, I think that's really critical as some skills you should take with you as you practice law or don't practice law But you move into uh, you know the world um I think that You know In the end of the day You're just going to be realistic about what might be out there for you and uh Be excited about facing that challenge. I think that roger williams is something that's going to you know, give you a great Platform a stepping stone to get to wherever it is. Uh, you're you know You're going to go you should definitely have a one three five year plan Uh as scary as it sounds because it does help to make the adjustment Easier and more tolerant to accept Change is the one thing that you should embrace Because it's going to happen to you at every aspect of your life both as a human being but also as an attorney Whatever you're doing right now is probably not going to be the exact same part of law that you're going to be doing A couple years from now potentially. I mean corey changed from a large firm to a boutique firm That's called change might be scary. We take some risks But as attorneys we learn risk assessment critical thinking your way in your options You know, what's an acceptable risk or if I downsize to a boutique firm and we work it harder But my my roi is going to be greater and I got some interesting Past and some excitement to challenge me every day because that's ultimately what we're all looking for Is what's my challenge? How am I going to keep my passion going? Where am I going in life? Uh, so these are the things that I would say in a non World that are thinking like what are the skill sets you've got your critical thinking your professors are doing that This law firm does it for you every day in the crucible But you also have that other aspect you've got to keep alive, which is your personal side where you're going Because it's not the law firms the law schools Rolled also be your your mom and dad or your your mentor, you know, they're a mentor But they're not here to say look you've got to keep these other personal skills sets Current and successful I think the biggest thing is networking I mean, you're going to be networking from now until you retire. There's just no way around it. You can't be successful. You can't be Relevant if you don't go to A lot of networking events functions. I mean, of course you're going to have your CLEs I do I actually teach CLEs now. I mean you have to get yourself involved get just Always find things that you are not comfortable with And go after them I think if you don't if you stay if you become complicit and you just get you you like your comfort zone You like your little niche That's all you're going to get and you're not going to be successful You're not going you have to keep growing you have to keep changing because the law keeps growing and changing I mean, it's it's not it's not in a vacuum It is going to change with us as society changes no matter what aspect of the law you're in So you have to know the people that are in Your area of law know people that are in other areas of law. I mean, I'm I'm still This is the funny thing the friends that used to make fun of me For taking every tax class and every business class known to man Now come and call me and they say hey, I've got a client I can't I can't only get them this far. I don't understand business. I don't understand tax So can you help me and that's what we do and that's why you stay in in contact you stay in networking and because That helps and it helps to know who's out there that can give you those Help your client. I mean you're going to keep the client if the client knows that That you're going to get them the right people To help their problems So I think really just networking and not being complicit is the best skill sets that you can have If I can jump in there and take it one step further Intelligent targeted networking and I don't mean selling yourself in a targeted manner. I just mean You are your brand Every interaction you have should be based on a layer of authenticity which Inherently requires a little bit of integrity and if you're not projecting Integrity you're getting no job. No work You're just not developing a network. You're just there I think it's very important. I think I touched on it earlier, but professor santoro Was helping us network while we were here and we were borrowing a lot of his credibility from the start And I think it's important to heed that. I'm just going to reiterate to heed his example Not just for yourself, but for all of us because we are building a brand as a school every day I mean, we are still young in the legal community So it's very important that every interaction you have is authentic because you're reflecting on all of us And I take that very seriously in what I do in the market And I think it's just you know touching on networking. It's so important to be honest transparent Everything you do cannot be veiled in some sort of hidden agenda And the second thing is when you do this never expect anything from anybody you are not networking to get something You are networking to introduce yourself to build that image In hoping someday you can help them or they can help you, but you are not Expecting anything you are very willing to give but don't expect and it will work much better in that way because people can see right through the attention No, it's very true. I think that what court just said is authentic and sincere I didn't find myself ever when I was 3l and you're ready to graduate that I would be an elected official running elections every four years and I think that's true. We learned a lot here integrity who you are and being Focused on doing the right thing and I don't think resonates whether it's for the client It's with other business partners Whether you're doing lectures with cpa's etc. They'll see the sincerity they'll see the the actual person there and rely on it and it's an amazing brand on so many different ways Whether you're going door to door and asking somebody for their vote or just you know, you said making sure that You're doing the right thing every day. It's critical and we learned a lot From a great mentor who was that vision every day in front of the classroom. You feel it. It emanates from but with all professors I mean whether We did evidence so professor kogan and Conflicts such are that we do have some great mentors here at this school that you learn from they're up there And you feel it when they're telling you stuff and you're like, all right, how do I Take this incorporate it not mimic it because you got to make it your own and then bring it forward I think that Cory that was a very great way to kind of potentially end this Thought I would never think that when we're talking about business. We're really going to get to the ethical side But really in the end of the day it is it's not that authenticity That was just a massive very concentrated wisdom So for the students in the room who I hope recognize what they just heard I'm going to quickly recap some amazing lessons that we just heard and that'll give you all a second to think about your questions That you're going to ask of our panel One you were talking with the importance of asking questions and something we've talked about in the clinic because students very often Just want to know everything right away because they have a client in front of them We talk about the benefit of an experience as an advantage the more you develop as an attorney I'm sure you've all had this experience It can be harder to explain the down-to-earth right concepts to someone who to whom that is completely new And that's something that is easier for a student because they remember what it was like to To be in that person shoes I've seen plenty of rooms where there's a client completely missing something a senior partner was saying and it's the younger associate In the room that is is pointing out that disconnect Personality is key. You don't need to check your personality at the door and you shouldn't there are plenty of lawyers out there And people want to work with the people that they get along with really well right and honesty is an important part of that Do stop and reflect right and after you get past that path where you know We get you into tax and you wake up one day with an LLM Do you stop and think about where you are and if you want to to make a shift and pursue one of these Alternate paths. I'll say one more time networking early on is key And I think that theme of giving right and helping people is important and the way that it's done in business and in law Nowadays, I think getting uncomfortable is a wonderful lesson as well as a do be sure to challenge yourself And that includes the Roger Williams community So I think something unique about this school and everyone's had this experience You've heard a little bit is the the connections you build here continue after law school I have a group text that's running all the time with my litigation friends who always have tax and transactional questions They can't answer. I should probably mute that because it's getting to be a little much We talk about in the clinic as well the importance of knowing what's on the periphery of your practice area So Liz you talked about knowing how important it is to know other practices As well as other non legal concepts that touch what you do so you can navigate your clients to those other pieces and spot those issues So they're not missed And then finally this didn't we didn't intend this to sound like a tax commercial But since it started sounding that way, I'm just going to lean into it The world is especially hungry for tax attorneys right now So anybody who's are who's in those classes and is enjoying it. It's a wonderful time to to be in that field All right, I will turn it over for questions any questions for Any or all of our panel Well, the better half of the panel is teaching so if we agree to count participation, maybe that would help Um Well, I I'll say that on the business side We don't the pro bono more more comes from what Catherine does the tax conference you work We have clients who are struggling and helping them I mean my clients have money so there's not really pro bono you do for them But you know the firm does So the but the firm does some pro bono work. I mean it One thing you have to be careful of is Getting wrapped up in a case that you can't get out of that takes a lot of time because we're eight lawyers You know, we can't spend hundreds of hours on a case of pro bono case. We just don't have the capacity to do it But we do do it on the the tax conference side because a lot of those people are You know, I think as some people said you got to have empathy and dignity and these people are hurting Some people I said that I think yeah I can address this I think more from the corporate perspective. We always talk about when I have our administrative Discussions between our admin team HR CFO We don't do pro bono per se. We're just a different organization But we talk about building a culture of integrity all the time And a big piece of that is time off for people to participate within the community The hidden benefit of that is it's one of the best affinity networking tools You can possibly do I hate to state it in that manner because you should do it authentically as we said, but I mean I volunteer with a An urban squash program in Harlem. It's very near and dear to my heart We help fund raise we help actually give Mentoring tutorials we help with sat prop and Through that network strangely enough. I've met a some of my closest friends in new york city I've met some of my clients through that strangely enough and it wasn't because I was pursuing work, but I think The underlying intention is building that culture of caring being a member of the community Not only for yourself, but the brand of the company is very important and you will see legal benefits in your career So uh, we'll also add one little thing. I bet you never thought it was going to be these two Especially that one making all the trouble today I was the cold callous bastard during those years. Uh, it's very interesting that uh, professor cogan asked that because now when you Renew your registration for the new york bar there is a multiple question section about your pro bono work Not to be used or published. I don't even know what they're doing at four per se, but You know, there's exemptions. Is this and that but they ask about Work you do as a pro bono And what you would value that at or how many cases If you're not doing that you do a lot of charitable work And how would you value that as and it's all compassed in this was the first year That I had to do because that's my cycle of renewal But I was like wow and people are really Trying to I wouldn't say push it but they're trying to keep some track of it and Even if it's not actual pro bono work for cases Getting involved with just some community outreach. I set up a veterans Kind of experience called weekend for warriors, but I provide legal services for them for nothing Questions and answers a lot of veterans as they transition back to civilian life have a lot of issues. I've been unfortunately is PTSD it could be Drug issues can be criminal problems as they get into it or unfortunately a high degree of divorce I of course don't touch family law, but You know, I help them in their transition and trying to make sure they're getting a good person to guide them But there's a lot of ways we can do Pro bono concepts without actually taking a case things to think about you know for attorneys going forward charitable work and You know Setting up things that you're passionate about and you care about is a great way to do it in a non official way So that's something but there's a very nice question I can't help but comment on this and I won't spend the hour as many of you know I will spend talking about how much more pro bono work transactional tax attorneys should be doing I think the challenge that we see and something for students to pay attention to is it's harder for tax and transactional attorneys to see How they can provide pro bono service. It's not immediately obvious I think the the most obvious thing we see is helping a non-profit organization, right? And a lot of us who are in tax end up doing a lot of tax exemption work For free But there certainly is a way to have a massive impact if you help smaller businesses and nonprofit organizations and The benefits for you theme to be continued If you are to help a massive nonprofit who has a very complex structure like a massive for-profit Would there's a lot of experience that you can get there as a younger associate Doing that sort of work for free And if you are not convinced you can talk to any of my students in the business startup clinic Or having a massive massive economic impact in red island by providing free legal services In fact, if a brilliant student sitting right there who's going to be advising a brand new nonprofit starting up in red island This coming Tuesday, so we'll let them convince you if you're not convinced Yeah, and I don't mean to just pick on family We we get you know, we have all sorts of tax resources of bna checkpoint Every day you get an email and you see a lot of court decisions that deal with alimony and and quadros and Just I mean you would think oh, I just have to draft this But you have to look at the underlying code to see is it complying with the code And and so it's it's common, but it's common in other practices, too Is this organization is another common area of this staff? Yeah And I will open it up to the the other people who are teaching as well So I said it Professor centura was the first person to teach me how to put it all together and that's a lesson I very much enjoy teaching and It should go without saying but focusing on the client and what their goals are so it's Fairly common for Tax folks who are not focused on the client to give an absolutely brilliant high cost savings But ultimately useless solution because it doesn't fit into the client's goals Right, so we're constantly focusing on where the client wants to be so we could have two different clients in our clinic Where the exact same set of laws apply in either situation, but the result is completely different because of that The two different people we have in front of us had the same Yeah, I mean I've had the same thing and and what I try and teach my students and I Taught both law students and now business students The approach And and understanding I mean when I when I taught lawyers I taught them to say Okay, if you are going to go in business How do you approach a business person who doesn't understand the law and for my business students? I say, okay I'm a lawyer You need to work with us whether you like it or not So you need to understand where we're coming from so we can understand where you're coming from So it's that blend the only way a successful business is going to take off is if they appreciate the law And the lawyers appreciate where the business needs to be because there are going to be times where the business really doesn't It needs to go a certain way And there's regulations. There's treaties. There's other issues that they have to deal with And you have to figure out that analysis of well, how do I make the business aspect thrive? But be within the law at all times So and that's and it's that bridge. It's that bridge for the lawyers to understand business and business to understand lawyers Um Yeah, I would say Unabashedly proud that, you know, we're I was a class of 2006 It's definitely the best law school year that came through here and At that point we had both Dean Yogan, Dean Yonasky The place was thriving and we had a teacher president Toro who Got it and he was Encouraging us to embrace it too. We talked him into starting the business planning course, which was just an amazing course and that one was the one where things like that where, you know You got to talk to your client. They want to start a company. You've got to have them trust you like what is your ultimate goal? Yeah, you want to make money. Do you have succession issues? Do you have trouble with your children? Is your wife going to leave you or do you have any bad vices? I mean you've got to get in there and you know and and so that you can help them To create this entity, which is their dream and let's be honest Whether it's a restaurant or a bar or or you're selling a widget A lot of them fail and a lot of them fail because if you want to use the The mantra of house everybody lies, you know And so or you can't get it out of them because they you've got to learn and and learning with with professor Santoro That ability to to get somebody to Come in or accept you and say all right I'm going to give you my secrets and I'm going to trust you is I think something that We were able to learn during those years here when we were talking about business We'd have our amazing little small classrooms With a bunch of people that you know, it was only about eight of us some of the times And you got to really have that amazing Interaction with professor Santoro that you would lose in federal taxation because it was such a big course Or all the other courses we took that were you know opened up to so many different levels Whether you're a 1l or 3l you're doing it for your requirements or your elective and stuff like that But it was those unique little You know classes is like, you know our own little private club I filmed that way. Yeah, we're going to talk about real interesting shit today And and it was it was that and and I appreciate the fact that you know that that Roger Williams You know allow that to happen and percolate during our time because it made the difference for so many ways For all of us and uh, so that's kind of the lesson that I got be real get people in trust them And help them achieve whatever is it trying to do? And it goes so far So it's a great way to wrap up on a good final lesson I encourage my students at the start of the year because most of them are 3ls who enjoy this last year because it's a unique Experience to be able to sit in a classroom and discuss these issues So as much as it sometimes seems like a stressful year do take a time to enjoy it and I think we are Out of time and I hope everyone will continue for the rest of the evening with us