 I have the pleasure to announce Robert Zenfleben. He's interested in ecological restoration for two to three years now. And he's here today to tell us about his work in ecological restoration. Sorry. And yeah, please give him a big round of applause and say welcome. Thanks. Hello everyone. I'm a bit nervous. It's my first time I'm doing a speech about this topic. And in front of so many people and chairs and in such a big room. So bear over with me if I have to look up or down or just think for ten seconds to get a hold of it again. So first I would like just to say a couple of words about myself and who I am and perhaps how I ended at the Cares Community Camp at this place today. So I'm born on a small island in Denmark by a German dad and a Danish mama. We could also speak German, but I think there are a few people in Jordan that are very excited and saying hello. Hello Jordania and hello friends over there. So yes, well, I'm a guy who looked into a lot of things since a young age. And I guess I'm not alone in this space when it comes to questioning things and looking into how society and how systems work and what we're doing and what it brings with it and so on. So a couple of years ago when I finished my high school I decided to go on a bicycle journey to explore a bit more. So I did a small bicycle journey from Denmark to India which promoted certain things in me like mobility. It makes you cultural sensitive. It gives a great view on how things are going, other places and you get very close to different environments and cultures and so on and so forth. When I came back I ended in a place that is called Institute for X. So this is a place I'm not going to go away from the terraforming, but I think some of the background knowledge is interesting to know, to understand how I ended up where I did and why. So this is a place in Orhus. It's called Institute for X. Some might call it a hacker space. Some might call it a platform for culture, for music, for business, for environment, for cultural things and social things and so on and so forth. Here I learned a great deal about mobility and about collaboration, about how to mix many ideas and how to make it all happen. Simultaneously with me being present at this place, I went on a school that is called the Chaos Pilots, which is a school that engaged with creative business development, project management, leadership and process design and process leadership. So this is my professional background with which I'm engaging in the work and the issue that we are going to talk about right now. So I got scoped in on the topic of terraforming and ecological restoration and what it can lead along with the feedback loop of the action. What happens when you do it? When I ended up at a conference in Sweden two years and a little bit, originally I went there with the focus and interest because I was campaigning against Monsanto and arranging some conferences a couple of times. So I went to the summer of soils where these and other topics are discussed. But at the summer of soils I met a very particular man whose name is John Dennis Liu who has been studying and documenting terraforming and ecological restoration for the last 30 years. And he is coming with a background as a journalist, as a soil scientist, environmentalist, has a master in the music and art. So he comes from a very wide, you may say, creative education and background that makes it able to view things from a very wide perspective. So I met this guy who was telling about ecological restoration, about terraforming, political issues, social issues, environmental issues, ethical issues. When it comes to land use and property rights and the way we do agriculture or how we produce and extract from the soil. So to give you a better view on who this guy is and what this work is about and what I would say the most modern type of ecological restoration or terraforming or ecological regeneration is. I want to show you just three minutes of one of John's many films. I think we have a sound problem. Yes, there's only one input. I'm very sorry for this. But I think we're going to be right down. No, you don't get anything here? Yes. What happens if I just. What? Sorry. Just talk about it. Well, so here you see John Dennis Liu. This is in 1995. He went to an area called the Los Plateau. And this place you can see on these pictures here. It is this area that they engaged in is the size of just a tiny bit smaller than Holland, bigger than Belgium and a little bit smaller than Holland. What you see here is probably the most modern day way of terraforming and improving ecological function that we have done in well in this century. The Americans under the Great Depression, they actually did huge similar projects you can look at in around the 1930s, right? But this is just about now that this happened. So sorry. Should I maybe put the sound down here first? Strange. Well, anyway, so what you see here now he's telling about how we can enhance food, water, life quality, economics, ecology. And of course, health if we enhance the quality of the soil. So what you see there is a completely degraded ecosystem where basically all microbial life in the soil is eradicated or dead. Yeah, I wish that John he could have introduced this to you because he does have better skills and knowledge in this subject. So the picture you see here is the change that has happened eight years after they started the rehabilitation of the soil. In a couple of minutes, I'm going to explain you some of the techniques and give you some illustrations. But till then, this is sound is finished. It was working fine in my headset earlier. So what we'll have to do? I think there's anything there. Well, the illustrations tells a lot. So the basic issue when you have degraded or we have degraded a piece of land is that we have destroyed this life that exists within the soil. All these small helpers from the bacteria to the protozoa to the especially the earthworms are there to make sure that this planet of ours can host the life of ours. What happens, for example, in the Los Plateau for around eight, nine hundred years ago was that the civilization that once was breeding and developing at this place simply overused and overproduced and over extracted what was there. So that means taking the trees down, putting too much animals out and in the end you would not have any vegetation or green organic life in the soil. To a green and fertile wallet, mudslides and famine. But with the fanfare comes the hope of change for the better. My name is John D. Liu. I've been documenting the changes on the plateau for 15 years. I first came here in 1995 to film an ambitious project where local people were constructing a new landscape on a vast scale of barren land into a green and fertile one. Projects certainly changed my life, convincing me to become a soil scientist. The lessons I've learned in the last few years have made me realize that many of the human tragedies that we regularly witness around the world, the floods, mudslides, droughts and famines are not inevitable. On the Los Plateau, I've witnessed that people can lift themselves out of poverty. They can radically improve their environment. And by doing so, reduce the threat of climate change. One thing that became apparent early on is the connection between damaged environments and human poverty. In many parts of the world there's been a vicious cycle. Continuous use of the land has led to subsistence agriculture. And generation by generation, this has further degraded the soils. The vital question we have to ask is, can this destructive process be reversed? When I first filmed Mr. Tafu Yuen and his colleagues back in 1995, I had no idea this initiative could achieve such dramatic results. People put into converting their slopes into terraces has resulted in a marked increase in agricultural productivity, directly related to the return of natural vegetation in the surrounding ecological land. Okay, so it worked. So how does it happen that it comes from the green state to the desert state? It was what I was just getting into slightly before. The main issue, we all know, is chop and drop, overgrazing and chemical use kind of puts the dot over the eye when we start to use artificial fertilizer and pesticide and herbicide. We reach, so to say, complete the destruction of the soils and thereby the foundation for the natural systems. So the issue is quite known and if you take a quick look on one of NASA's latest photos from our dear planet Earth, it's easy to see that around a quarter up to a third of our planet has reached the state of desertification. If you now take a look on the areas that are most desertified and you think where are all the major conflicts happening right now, where is it that we see huge, how do you call it, huge crowds of migration and civil war and famines. It is in the areas where the ecological systems are extremely degraded. So many incidents and many events have shown the linkage between ecological degradation and eco-nomical and social issues going on in these areas and countries. So what do we do about it? Here is a photo from an area called Almuakka in Jordan, around 40 minutes from the capital Amman, where we are going to launch the first project. And as you can see, the state is severe. There's not much vegetation left. So one of the main issues when you have reached this state of soil is that the water does not penetrate into the soil any longer. And when this has happened, it's very difficult of course to get anything to grow there. It's a rather simple science and simple biology and the solution is as simple. So we are following in RISO some of the mythology and some of the work that is being introduced by permaculture, which was developed by Bill Mollison. And one of the techniques that we use is simply to make what is called swales into the soil to make the water infiltrate. So the problem is water does not infiltrate, so we must make the water infiltrate in one way or the other. And the simple technique is simple to either use excavator or as you saw in the movie, engage millions or hundreds of thousands of people in the work to start to rehabilitate their area and thereby improve their life. But when you have made the first holes in the soil, you need to cover it to protect from the sun and to make sure that it gets new organic matter. Because organic matter is the direct feed or food for the microbial life. And if the microbial life in the soil does not get what it needs, it will not support the functionality of the soil. So actually the work starts underground. It is the underground that basically keeps the upper ground alive. So if we do not manage to feed and protect this life under the earth, it will not make it able to create a soil structure that is moisture enough, has a certain pH and has life forms enough for the root systems and the plants and so on to go on and sustain itself but also sustain the microbial life. Because they have an interlinked life and they have an interlinked relation, the microbial life and the root systems and the plants. They benefit from each other and one cannot go without the other. Right? So this is task number one. It is to re-alive the microbial life. So again the underground sustains the upper ground or the top. And this is done well with the earthwork and of course to catch the rain for the water to get in. But then it needs to be covered with organic matter which can be everything from leaves to trees to biosolids which is the nice word for human feces which can be prepared. It is not full of parasites or any intoxication for humans to eat later from products that comes out of the functionality of the ecosystem. And of course animal manure can use newspapers and many other materials. So one of the big tasks we have in Jordan because it is already very dry and it is in a lack of what you call biomass or necromass which means... which is basically dead organic matter. This we need to collect to spread it out for the earth and the water and the biomass again to create the microbial life to a certain level. So that it again can host trees, vegetation and so on and so forth. An approach that is introduced by John is that you look at functionality of ecosystems. So when it comes to these projects and this work, traditionally development agencies and agencies have been focusing when they do these projects on producing food straight away. So you make an analysis, you find out what the need is in the community. You look at the habits, you look at the traditions and so on and so forth and you decide on a certain amount of crops. We want to introduce a new approach where the focus is on functionality. So rather looking at food production straight away it is important to look at the functionality. So a lot of trees they will not produce any food for us humans but their function in the ecosystems is to provide enormous amounts of nutrition for the life underground. So we are talking about rather complex plant systems that will be introduced and all of this you can read about in permaculture. A very good book to, how do you call it? I can suggest you, it's called The Sinus Manual and it's by Bill Mollison. With one L or two L? No, it's like this. So he has over many years, Bill Mollison explained and observed how every kind of climate works to its best functionality basically. And there is really a lot of knowledge to get there. So after the basic earth work is done, here I just want to show you a small illustration. So RISO is a foundation that is being set up at the moment. Maybe I should give you a small update about where we are at the moment with this work and how it's looking at the moment. So at present we are setting up a foundation in Holland with the name RISO Foundation. RISO comes from Greek and means to strike root. And RISO, the prefix is known from the word RISOBIUM which is tiny root structures that come out of the roots and function as kind of support channels underground and build the way through the soil for air and water and energy and small microbial life to pass through. So what we are intending to do is we are going to move the so-called RISO camp out to designated areas. In this particular case it's in Jordan at the picture I showed you just before. And we are setting up a mobile unit consisting of pneumatic houses which in the case of Jordan probably will be traditional biturine houses. And then we are working with a couple of designers to design upcycled shipping containers, 40-foot upcycled shipping containers to host research facilities in ecological restoration or terraforming, training facilities to innovate in products and tools and different ways to do the work and also to be able to have a good produce because there comes a time after when the ecosystems are well functioning. We are able to start to think about how do we maintain the ecosystems now and what do we want to use of it and to what degree in order not to, how can you say, degrade the ecosystem again. Because the basic aim is that we must make sure in this work always to have an increase in biodiversity. So I assume most of you know what biodiversity means but for the ones not it means the amount of difference of life forms both in fauna and flora that exists in an ecological system. So it's important that the framework and the work that is being done and how the system is being used after it's going to be restored is in a pace and in a way that will not degrade the ecosystem once again later on. So the huge part of our work is going to take part in making sure that these communities that we are going to work with and ourselves will make sure that we somehow have a guideline. These are still very new things and these are things that are not, how can I say, we are not, we are at the beginning. We are at the beginning of this work and it's still a process of deciding do we go this way or do we go a bit both ways and meet over here. So and this is perhaps what still makes it very interesting also for many people. So after point one, point one collaborative need assessment with local population. So from day one that we settled the camp with the setup there will be open facilities, oh yeah, to finish about the facilities. After research and innovation there's going to be facilities for wood workshop, metal workshop, electricity workshop, music for dance and for the culture to stay alive and again for people to be able actually to work and build and innovate. And also we envision a very big gathering space so we from day one can have people staying there and working with them and collaborating and really creating, well how can I say, basically creating a community with a community in the community. So we do not want to separate ourselves from the people that we work with and we don't want to stay, let's say, in the capital. No we want to be straight there at side every day, work side by side and both share the time and the space and not have this separation which you may see for example United Nations when they go and do development aid and they build a small castle around 5, 10, 20 kilometers away, at least this is how it has happened a lot of times traditionally. So next step is to start to do the water harvesting, that's basically what I told you about with the earthwork and one thing is to catch and have enough for rainwater and for watering the plants in the nurseries and in the soil but another point is to we must start to fill up the aquifers again so in the area where our pilot site is, where the picture where the white building was, they have now to dig around 200, 300 meters deep to find any water and this area is still range between 100 and 150 millimeters so if you calculate 15 hectares the initial pilot site is 15 hectares big and if you calculate 15 hectares with 100 to 150 millimeters of rainwater you have a couple of million liters of water so if you can just catch a small percentage of this in underground wells or with the rainwater collectors on top we are already pretty good off and again we must fill up the aquifers. Then we set up the mobile research training and innovation center for ecological restoration and next step at a certain point so the two main points of the RISO camp is to on one side do the ecological restoration from day one and on the other side start to design and think to build a permanent center that will stay at the place and from that process starts we want to involve the local community and different people who may be interested both globally and nationally to take over and run this permanent center so we in this way can start to create a network globally of these centers and camps where this innovation and work is going to take place. Well I'm sorry to say that I was rather unprepared for today because my computer broke down in France some time ago and was first able to get a computer yesterday and I had to move a lot of stuff because on the 20th of September I'm moving myself to Jordan so it's a bit it's popping in and out a bit the things and a bit messy but I hope you can follow and it makes sense to some degree. So here the people we need to involve in this work we need to involve both the educational level we need to involve research at the moment we are establishing collaborations with universities in Holland some collaborations are established in Jordan and the deal with this is to bring students in and lectures in for one two or even three semesters to work with ecological restoration but also to do master thesis PhDs and to do their research on this and the interest is huge we are having many people every day that contact us from all around the world asking how they can come how they can take part and this is going to be one of the key elements in this work not only to make sure that there's hands to work but also because this topic is still so new and there's so many how do you call it there's so much we still do not know what happens when you apply this type of fertilizer for this land what happens with the soil within what time period when you plant this tree so there's a lot of things to learn about then there we need to involve a lot of organizations we need to involve corporations also we need to involve culture and art and the creative scene we need to have volunteers we need to involve the government and we need to involve politics and we need to test a lot of things we need to do a lot of things and we need to work hard because most of the places where you have the certified land it's funny enough very warm and very hot so it's you're going to get brown and hot and warm and sweaty but you feel great so here's another picture of the land where we're going to start the initial work and here is another photo here we have a picture of me and one of the families of the Bedouins who live there they are presently now grazing with around 600 animals so you can say that their animal are doing terraforming but perhaps unknowingly what the consequences are of it and when we have been there a couple of times and talk with them about the project they are super happy to take part and they are super happy to know what's going to happen and what should... oh sorry okay I'm going to freestyle a bit so I would like to read you this poem that was made by Artur in Sweden at the summer of soils also so every minute of our life every breath we take is made possible by the food we eat bread, vegetables, meat and dairy products all come originally from crops that grow in the soil today we are seven billion people who share the planet in 30 years time planet earth will have perhaps two to three billion more mouths to feed we face the double challenge of at once feeding a rapidly growing population with sufficient amounts of wholesome nourishing food and economizing with finite resources in order to stop the depletion of the basis of all other resources the fertile soil and the plant life it sustains it is the flow of energy from the sun that regenerates the planet's ecosystems and creates the renewable resources on which our existence depends agriculture and forestry imply production but also custodian ship of the basis for our existence arable fertile soil the way we go about farming and forestry are crucial to the ecological future of the planet thus their matters of life and death so there are two things that there are too much of in the world at the moment perhaps there's several other things but in this matter there are two things that there are too much of one is the certified land which is not used and is standing passive and to illustrate another point of when it comes to the certified land so when it comes to climate change when you have a certified land the sun's energy is not going to be used in its proper way because instead of it creating the photosynthesis with the vegetation it leaves the sun rays on the earth as heat and we increase the temperature of our planet when you have trees or other types of vegetation the heat is transformed for energy for the growth and well we are way better off that way so one thing is the empty land and the other thing is an extent and a huge amount of people who live in bad and terrible situations in starvation and political exile and refugees and so on and well it's shit now in Jordan there are two and a half million Syrian refugees and they live in tent camps where they are killing each other and they are not allowed to go outside and they are well it's fucked to say it in a bad language but it's this situation is crazy and it keeps on shocking me how we can let these things be I'm not talking to you as we but as a humanity and as species that shares basic everything on this earth we share the joy, we share all the same organs we know we share all feelings research has shown that the dreams we have is basically the same if you are from Africa or here or there and it is terrible that we have not yet managed to combine this and these are some of the efforts that we want to move towards so we are at the moment discussing possibilities in Jordan to rehabilitate a piece of land which is 1000 hectares big instead of a money exchange the exchange would be land where we potentially can start to grow and establish new communities for people who have no home and for people who have no property and who have lost everything in a war or civil war but we might be able to provide land and provide work and actually provide value for those people and there has been done some projects in Colombia Los Gaviotos perhaps somebody have heard about it where after 20 years it was possible to increase the land value with what do you call it by 30 by 30 so it is extremely interesting if we are able to connect let's just focus on refugees because this is where we have our focus in Jordan now if we can get some of these people that we can start to cultivate and grow these communities where they actually can start to get a new heritage and start new lives and because who knows how long they will stay and most people stay often in these countries where they go so now I have 20 minutes left and I want to leave some time for questions stuff like this but I want to show one more small clip by a happy guy from India who has grown he has been growing I think some 500 or 800 hectares by himself well and the help of villagers and family and he has a few words to share about his life and how he is feeling and here he gives he is a pasto engineer and he is the superintendent of Planting and Sheldex after 30-40 years he has been living in the jungle and now he is happy he is not living in the forest now he is happy he is not living in the forest he is living in the jungle and he is the most beautiful person in the world and you said that you are the most beautiful person in the world and you are the most beautiful person in the world If you have questions, please line up at the microphones and for all the newcomers on the stream, please remember that translations are available via deck extension 8011. So, do we have any questions? Okay, left microphone, right microphone? Do you know there is a lot of people thinking about the permaculture and it's the same kind of stuff you are doing. Do you know the permaculture? If I didn't get your first question, yes, I know about permaculture. And what you are doing looks like some kind of extreme permaculture, isn't it? Sorry, it's a bit unclear up here, could you say it one more time? What you are doing looks like some extreme permaculture, isn't it? Okay, now I got you. Yes, I mean a lot of the, when it comes to the earthwork and working with the soil and the plants and these techniques are basically all from permaculture, you are right. We want to extend it and bring the culture in and to make sure that the community, well how can you say it, that what we are really trying is to create, to mix the restoration work with, how can you say it, with the spiritual work and cultural work and many people who live in lands that are very desertified and it's a hostile life and it might, well basically we want to bring smiles in there and really create a platform that provides all the basic necessities and tools and machines and room for this to happen. And I still have one question. Do you have a website where you share your techniques and stuff like that? Yes, we have, there is this blog where the process of the work is described and different project description, you can find our project plan and also some of the techniques, but if you want to see the techniques I would like just to refer you here and to look under dry land, dry land agriculture and permaculture because this is basically where we get the knowledge from. Then there is a Facebook group also where the discussion is going on, at the moment we are setting up an official home page and we are setting up the foundation and we are now at the moment setting up the fundraising strategy. Okay, let's microphone. Hello. Hi. This sounds quite expensive and there is a lot of dry land. How do you think this idea is going to scale? So it's going to be expensive and then you said something I didn't hear? I mean there is a lot of dry land, dissatisfied land which could be terraformed and that would be great, but how much do you think can you accomplish? Well I think we can make the whole world green again if we bring enough people along and if we are able to make a setup that is so simple that we can replicate it quickly everywhere else. So the initial setup that we are looking at now we have just made an establishment budget. It looks to be around 150, 170,000 euros and this includes a space that will be able to host up to 100 people, 50 to 100 people and electricity, water, like I said functioning metal workshop, wood workshop because we are not talking about the necessity of very high tech solutions. We are focusing on as low tech as it can be without being super slow in the work. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Any more questions? Some of these questions are still a bit difficult to answer because we have not launched the pilot project yet. So we are in a design phase, we are in a thinking phase. We have the land, we have a fundraiser with a great experience, John D. Liu is on board as the project designer and initiator and things are rolling. But there is a lot of things to think about. And my mind is also how do you call it rather because it is the first time to work with a big task like this after finishing education this summer and coordinating in Jordan moving from Denmark and doing a new, doing a talk for the first time and so, and it's the same many of the people who are joined this process are students who are eager to work with this and know that there is a different way and a smarter way to do things and know about the issues. We have a great dream in RISO and it is to create the ring of Ashtar. Ashtar is an Egyptian god of fertility and the ring of Ashtar is basically a huge stripe around the whole world where you will be able to walk and never need to visit a supermarket because the place is so beautifully grown with berries and fruit and vegetables and animals are running around freely and happy and you can camp at every side because you will find shade wherever you go and you will find fresh food and fresh water. And when we have made one around the world we can make it on the other side and we can make many rounds and in the end it's all encapsulated and we are actually able to create what is described as paradise in the holy books. It's not far away. The pictures you saw from China was a difference of eight years so you can imagine ten years more. So most of us in this room will be able to see this change even. It's not grandchildren accomplishment. Okay next question. Over there. Over there? Yeah. Well you showed two examples of two countries that are a bit top down organized. China and Jordan. But how do you engage other governments that will have a lot more to lose or are a bit reluctant to go after these ideas? So your question was how do we engage other governments that are not? That are reluctant to these ideas. So at this point we have not engaged the government of Jordan. And it's still going very fine. So the land we got, the 15 hectares comes from her Royal Highness Princess Basma Bent Ali who is connected to the Royal Botanic Garden in Jordan. Don't call that government. Sorry? Don't call that government. I didn't hear it? You said the Royal Highness. That sounds like government to me. Well yeah you're right. In a way you're right and in a way you're not. Because well I'm not sure that even the official government is so happy for all the work that she might do. So I think there exists people with a title that we look at as established but who have extremely good and pure intentions with the work and separate themselves as a person also. Okay next question. Hi. You showed us some pictures of people in Jordan and my question would be how did you actually get in touch with them and learn about what they want? So we go out there and when I go out there I need someone to translate. So there's a kind friend of mine who go with me and many first times we did not really speak about much. Just walking together and have a coffee and talk about life in Denmark and at some point you start to talk about the environment you're in and at some point you start to hear their life story and what's going on and what is needed. So my approach is a very slow and consistent contact and we need to feel the readiness before we can do anything. And well it's the most sensitive point you touch upon because if we cannot manage to create trust there's no way to start anything. There's no reason for this. Now when I go back in September we're going to go there weekly again and like I told we're going to build up this riso camp as an open hacker space. I think this is a good terminology at this place for everyone to come and take part in. So the local community will have access to everything that we have access to. They can go and sleep in our bed if they want to. All the tools, all the machines, all the equipment, all the internet, all the water, all the computers is open source, open access for everyone to take part in. And we envision to arrange sport, recreational events, also cultural events, music to create more relationship basically and also not to get stuck in this one particular topic. Okay, do we have another question? Yes, we do. Hi, I really have a question. I just want to say that I really admire your approach and your enthusiasm and I wish you the best of luck. Thanks a lot. Go ahead. As I understood it, right now you're only talking about restoration, right? So bringing back the plants to areas where they have been extinguished in the last, let's say 100 or 1000 years. But if I understood you right, the big plan is to transform the whole world. Don't you see any dangers that might arise when we do so, when we change in such big... You will know that you asked me, I will think about it once more, but I have never seen any threats before. I cannot see any negative implications in having green areas instead of an area with sand and dryness where no life can exist basically. Yeah, I think in the first place that's absolutely right, but humanity has often tried to do big things and did not know the consequences from the beginning. So I guess if we do a change in big scale, I think the project in the beginning in the pilot phase is no danger. Sorry? The last sentence? I think the pilot phase is really no danger. But if you are going to, let's say, transform the whole Sahara, that's something that has been there for maybe millions of years, I could think of a negative aspect that we do not incorporate right now. Yes, you're absolutely right. I'm not an oracle and I cannot look in the future and I don't know. But the man-made deserts that we have made within the last couple of hundred years, maybe five, six hundred years, I think we would be way better off if we bring that back to a very well functional state. Because at the moment we are not able to feed the people. Well, we are, we produce enough food that could feed everyone I read that we throw 40% out and stuff like this. But if you look at Chad or you look at Rwanda before, millions of people were running away because their trees and their crops and their vegetation was taken away and destroyed within a century. And the effects of this are very obvious. I mean, many of the refugees who come to Europe now, they all come from areas where ecological systems have been broken down basically. And some of them would probably love to be in Europe. I think most of them they would like to go back to their home and to their homeland but it would not make sense for them to go home now because there's nothing to go back to basically. When you cannot drink water in your area you're really screwed. So, but I agree, there was another guy once he was talking also about the Sahara. He also mentioned the Sahara. I don't know how it would change the global ecology and atmosphere and the elements and so on if the Sahara became green for example. I don't know. Okay. Thanks for the considerations. We have time for last quick question. So, any takers? If not then have another big round of applause for Robert please. And one last thing. Tomorrow at eight o'clock in the White Dome in the evening it would be fantastic if some people would like to join a discussion on how to move along with this and how we can so to say strike root more places and how we can basically get further. I would like to give a more detailed view on where this project is at the moment and scope in on the kind of more pure practicalities and not talking so much about the ecosystem and functionality but look more at the project and how to move along with it. So please join for this or tell it to your friends or your neighbors or anything. So it's eight o'clock in the White Dome in the evening. Thank you.