 Hello, good afternoon and welcome to this third and last session of this series, the hidden side of the cloud and the environmental impact of the virtual side of things organised by the GEF and La Casa Encendida and Transición Verde, the foundation that I preside over. I am Raul Gómez and I am so happy to be moderating this session where we are going to be having, I'm sorry, we are having problems with some microphones that were open. Okay, so I'm sorry, I was saying that I'm Raul Gómez, the president or chair of Transición Verde, and I am happy to be moderating this session where we will have three women that I'm going to introduce to you in a second. So I wanted to explain a few logistics things to you all about the development of this session. For those of you who have already been here in other sessions, you already know, but I'm going to remind you of it anyway. I just wanted to tell you that one of the interventions is going to be in English and you have a button called interpretation. Simultaneous interpretation that you can click on it's the icon of a globe, where you can choose the language when the intervention is in English you can always listen to the Spanish in translation and you can listen to the interpreter. Matilde, what are our interpreter today, and you have also available the chat function where you can write your comments questions you can also share links. After the interventions, we will have a Q&A, we will be reading the questions that you will have written on the chat. So feel free to ask questions. And the sequence will be the one I just said, we will first have our three speakers and then we'll have a Q&A, a Q&A session where we will try and tackle other aspects regarding this, this topic. So we have questions when we talk to the Green European Foundation and La Casa Envida about the possibility of organizing this series of conferences. We were worried that we would only talk about what's negative about digitalization, we thought it was necessary to be aware of the fact that the virtual world, this cloud that we're always talking about that has a great impact, a real impact in real world is not just virtual, but we didn't want to paint it all black, we didn't want it to be too simplistic, we didn't want it to appear to be the mean one in the movie. We talked about minerals and the fact that this produces an environmental impact and it has geopolitical consequences. An example that was mentioned were rare earths and the needed materials for these technologies, you know that 28% of those rare materials come from China so that causes some geopolitical impacts. We also saw what was the situation with lithium we also told you that we had launched a Spanish version of a report that analyzes the impact of technologies in the EU and we also had in one of the speakers who was a one of the people responsible for this report and the second session was dedicated to data and energy so all of these data that go back and forth in the space have and actually a real impact and we also talked about cryptocurrency. We gave us very specific example of the situation with cryptocurrency but now we want to give a more hopeful vision we wanted to highlight some ways to advance towards a desirable digitization that that luminous side of the cloud and then the digitization that we wish for the one that we want and in order to talk about this topic we have here today Coral Calero, Julieta Aranjo and Kim Phan Spaentac who will be talking in that order. And since I've talked for too long now I am now going to give the floor to the first of our speakers Coral Calero. Coral Calero is a doctor in IT engineering and also a professor of IT systems in the University of Castilla-La-Manta. You have to really take a deep breath in order to say all of her titles. She is responsible for green software research of the Alarcos research group and she might shed some light on how we can use responsibly these technologies Coral good afternoon. What are the advances what you say are taking place in software engineering to make it more efficient. Well, first of all, good afternoon. Thank you all so much for inviting me, and thank you to all the people whose faces I see around here thank you for sharing your time this afternoon it's a very interesting topic I believe and not because I work in it but I think it's interesting. What are the advances the progress been made by IT engineering we are luckily starting to talk about the topic, which I believe is a very good starting point I have a presentation ready so if that's all right with you I will start sharing my screen. Yes please go ahead. And as per usual as we're online please could you confirm that you can see it so that I have peace of mind. Yes, perfectly. Okay, thank you so much. Then let's begin I'm going to try today to tell you about this global vision of what is being done in the world of software because as we were saying in the movie nobody's perfect and software isn't perfect either. I'm going to tell you today, the bad side of things as Raul said although that had already been tackled during the two previous sessions. But I'm going to tell you why, why are our group started working why we wanted to do try and make this world of software lighter there are some estimates that say that. In 2013, and that's in today's time only it sees will be responsible of 20% of global consumption of energy only information and communication technology since I don't know what our audience is. I'm going to take you to the beginning of things and I'm going to explain to you what this it sees are. This is information and communication technologies and they deal with software. These are the applications that we use in computers our cell phones on in TV so all of that software is what it's the applications then we have the hardware which is the device itself, where we execute and run these applications. And then we have communications. So according to what I said those to those three things software hardware and communications will be responsible for lots of different energy consumption in 2030. If we now go to digitization. I'm going to close in here a definition digitization that says that digitization is a procedure through which certain operations software can start being done where the digital devices such as such as computers that's hardware or smartphones which is another sort of hardware, usually with the help of internet connection and that's where we have communication so obviously we have a complete match between ICTs and digitization. Despite that, today, I'm not going to focus on all three but only on software because it is what I work on and what I specialize in. And why, why did we decide to start with software, why do we think that it is so important to work on software as well because as yarn so stroke who is a creator of C++ in an interview he gave in 2019 civilization depends on software as much as water it might sound it might sound a bit exaggerated but it it isn't really I wanted to make a mental exercise and think about all of the places that have software as I just told you the first idea. Software was just in computers. They were desktop computers then they became portable computers and then we have smartphones and then smart watches and, and that you could lead you to think about any device that has hardware that has a software inside here you have some examples. The simplest thing could be, for instance, cashiers machine but also all of the software within a car or the robots that help operate on people or the new harvesting machines and agricultural machines that have a software that help farmers carry out their tasks in the most performant way that is software and we use it intensively we use it intensively almost all of us all of the world's population so here you have three data. One of them is the use of the internet and social network. It's interesting to ask you to raise your hands because we cannot see it, but if we were meeting in a room I would ask you to raise your hand. And if I ask who has social networks everyone everyone will raise their hand and not only do we have one we have many social networks 67.1% of the world population uses cell phones and 62.5 uses the internet and we're close to 60 when we talk about mobile networks. So, it's not that we have the software that is used in computers or the software that is in certain devices, all of those social networks have their own software or our software. What else do we have. Well, we talked about that as Raul said we have data the monstrous amounts of data that we generate on the daily and that we have to store, and we store the data in a physical center in a data center but all of that also requires software to be managed. And all of those data that not only need to be stored they also need to be recovered and then Google said a year ago you were here or there. You have some pictures that thanks to software and then artificial intelligence AI which we had to resort to to be able to manage all of that information and currently it's very difficult to find a software that doesn't have some AI backing it up, especially when it has to manage huge amounts of data so we have lots of software in many different devices of all sorts and used to passively the world over. So the next question we ask ourselves is the following what's the problem that's all fantastic software has come to help. Well, that's, that's good for us isn't it. Well, the problem is this that all software runs in a device whatever the device is. And that device requires energy electricity to function. And that's where we have a problem. The more software we use the more devices will use, and we will ask our devices more from them and we will have to recharge them more often. So we require more consumption more electricity consumption and if you don't believe this let me just give you an example. This example you have here. There is a study and you have the references here I've tried to put the references of all of the data that I have used for my presentation. There is a study that says that one hour watching Netflix is the same emissions of our car covering 12 kilometers and you'll say that's not that much is it we're talking about 12 kilometers it's not very long I mean one hour Netflix 12 kilometers is not that much. Now look the other way. Look at the other screen this is what happens with one minute online and every day on the internet there are 452,000 hours of videos being watched on Netflix only Netflix. So if we multiply it it's quite easy. I have 452,000 hours that's what we have here on the slide. And what does that mean, it means that that's almost 5.5 million kilometers it's a bit more because I decided to round it down because it talked about. I was on miles and I rounded it down so that's what we're talking about and and is that a lot well as always let's be let's try and find a relative point so the perimeter of the earth is 40,000 kilometers so going round so. So watching Netflix every minute on earth will emit the same CO2 then our car giving 127 round trips round earth that's one minute one content platform just Netflix and from then onward we will try, we will try to extrapolate that to all of the different applications that exist and all the users that exist 24 hours a day because that's when we're using it, and then we realize that we have a problem. And if we go to the other part which is data what we were talking about previously then we have another example these are estimates of how many terawatts per hour data centers are going to be using these are the estimates until 2030 but as you can see to the right. We have that data for 2030 and that's the worst estimate is that it'll reach 1000 terawatts per hour. That's that's too much we have a problem with the data generation, but we will talk about that at some other time. And now AI. That's just one example, but training computers to learn how we human speak represents CO2 emissions equivalent to five times the use of the life of a car. And just training I'm only talking about training only training one algorithm. Okay, so do you realize you realize what we're facing when we talk about software. So what's important. What's important is not just to think that I would just one thing with one search on Google with one hour watching Netflix I am polluting and polluting the world and killing it know what's important is that my mission might might be reduced but when we think about everyone then there's a loss as the people in Catalonia say step by step you walk a long way. So that's with regards to software and we came from quality from the world of quality with software and we thought, well that's very good that's all good and well but something is happening here so we decided to research on sustainability. And this is actually directly linked where these sustainable development goals. More specifically I'm going to talk to you about what it is that we do what we think is a good way of raising awareness and to start shedding some light with regards to this topic of software which is green in software. I do not want to create a software that will help other sectors with their environmental goals which is also very good and has to be done, but I am a software engineer so I want for the software to be created to be done better so that it consumes less energy only the way that it requires so that it doesn't reach maximum output. So I'm going to use energy efficiency as part of the software development process so how did we manage to do this research that allowed us to find out how much a software consumes in order to give recommendations about how to better use software. Let's go back to what we called EET. EET is our device it's actually a hardware device. And it's actually energy efficiency tester, and that is actually an Arduino with lots of gauges that will be plugged into a computer so that when I run a software in that computer I can really capture the real consumption that that software is requiring. So if I am capable of knowing how much that software consumes when being run then I can give results and that's where we have two big work lines. Why well because we think it is basic that since technology and software are all of the place then the society needs to be aware of that impact of that impact that software has on the environment and on the other hand we have formal research. So the companies that develop software are aware of the problem and know what to do in order to improve their work practices. I'm only going to give you one example of research from the education part of part of our work and its social networks especially Twitter. Thanks to this EET we can recommend what's the best way of writing a tweet. What do I mean, when I say the best way, what's the most efficient from an energy standpoint, the best way to write twits is by using emojis, and it's obviously it's better characters and emojis if we start using images then the consumption is too complicated. If you use lots of emoticons, emojis then it's too much and if it's a GIF or a video, then that tweet that we're sending will consume much more than if we were using characters. Does this mean that we mustn't use videos or GIFs and on Twitter? No, it means that we have to use them, always being aware of what it is that we're doing and only when it's necessary. So we shouldn't just get used to using videos. It's like when you're on a diet, sometimes you can eat some chocolate but not every time every day. Now, other results. Here you have a study that we have done to compare different combinations of search engines to see how it's better to do searches on the Internet. So this is the list that we have generated and our A classification is, for instance, Google and the worst is everything that has to do with opera is a browser. So the differences between using the worst and the best would allow for the Tour Eiffel to be lighted for many, many years. So with the searches of one year, if we do it with the worst combination or the best combination, the difference is lighting the Tour Eiffel and we've also checked Instagram and online translator engines and so on. So what did we do so that these results can be disseminated? Well, we needed, here's when I talk about my book. We have created green tea, green tea malarcos green tea alarcos where we give advice on how to use technology in a responsible way taking into account the consumption that it will represent. Here you have examples for the twits avoid sending in emails with delivery and read confirmation because if I do that I'm sending an email that will then turn into three emails. So here you have lots of different tips if you visited. Now the formal part that I'm not going to talk about. We simply help software companies and we have been working on all these different lines that have to do with what I was saying at the beginning how we should we should compress data to save energy, knowing what sorts of programming coding languages are more or less efficient. What algorithm for machine learning optimizer is better and what do we obtain with regards to the algorithm precision and its consumption aspects with regards to use spring patterns and so on. So lots of different aspects that allow us to to set a list of good practices that we can give to these companies who develop software so that what we ask from users is please try and do little things with software so that we use it in an efficient way whilst companies who develop software start being updated and start developing those software in a more sustainable way taking into account the energy consumption that will be required so as a recap. What do I want you to take as a take home message well software is very present in our lives not just in our professional lives but also personal lives and it is a great energy consumer a minimum action might not have much impact but if we take into account everything that we do because lots of people do it, then this multiplying effect is the one that we have to take into account, we also have to take into account that it is responsibility of the software developers to have a sustainable development of softwares but until then all of us as users can have small gestures to help reduce those emissions that are due to softer we need to try and minimize them so that's my message today. That's what I am sharing with you so that you bear it in mind so that all of us can help the world and cherish it. And that's all I wanted to say thank you so much Raul and everybody else. I'm sorry can you hear me because you said that on the chat that you couldn't really hear me so I'm now wearing headsets just to see if it makes it better. Coral we should have invited you to the other two sessions as well. That's, it's, it's true that there are some hopeful initiatives but we must be aware of the impact that this has and before I give the floor to Julieta. I just want to ask you if at the Alarcos team. Your information is made available because maybe the information that you have made available would be of interest to the people who are listening today if you could put the link on the side. All of that information is on the slides we have references of the technical work some dissemination practices as well and in Green Tim Alarcos website we also have things there. So we will write it on the chat if you if you don't mind. I want to visit it and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Okay, thank you so much Coral thank you. It's a pleasure talking to you and listening to you. And we will now give the floor to Julieta Arancia, who I don't know if it's Arancia Arancia Arancia. She is a researcher, a PhD, a post PhD doctorate student. She's in Bristol, although she works for the Drexel University in the US and she talks about open code. Coral has talked about software, but Julieta is going to talk about hardware. How open, a scientific hard work can help transform science and technology towards a more democratic production of knowledge. And in this field of work, open hardware, she has had responsibilities in different international research groups at both sides of the Atlantic. Her CV actually looks as the map of an airline. She goes back and forth. Some of us are champions of open, open source, open code, but what is open hardware? What is its role in the democratization of knowledge? And how can it help us face the big challenges of our world? Climate, social, environmental challenges? Hello, hello Raul and hello everyone who is connected here today and thank you so much for inviting me because I love this, this union between sustainability and technology. I think it's key. And I think that as Coral was saying, I have a presentation to tell you a bit about this question, but I think that the key here is really to tell you how this is done, how the open hardware is done, because we all know about software. I mean, most of us are familiar with it, but I think that open hardware is still something that we find difficult. And before I start with my presentation, I wanted to try and really explain what it is that I'm going to talk about because it seems to be science fiction, but I actually talk about the designs of things, I talk about the design of tools, the design of technology. Coral actually mentioned those three components of ICTs and one of them is hardware. And when we think about it in Spanish, I don't know if it happens in Spain as well, but in Argentina we always think about electronics when we think about hardware. But I'm going to talk about the design of everything, the design of analogical technology, digital technology, anything that can be designed, that can be shared with new developments that we have through software online. So I'm going to try and share my presentation and then as Coral was saying, if you can tell me whether you can see it, yes, we can see it very well. Yes, I can hear you better now. Yes, I can hear you better now. Okay, I don't know the rest, but I can hear you better. Yes. Okay, so as I was telling you, thank you Raul for your presentation. I am doing my post PhD degree in Drexel University, but I am in Bristol because this is where I'm doing my field work, but my PhD work is linked to Drexel University. And we work on open tools for science and education. So I wanted to talk about the question that actually Raul asked me, what is its role in this transition. I am not going to stop to talk about problems because that has already been talked about doing the two other parts of the series which were very clear. But what I'm interested in is saying that one of the most important problems that we currently have with technology is that it's actually black boxes and when I say black boxes, I mean that it's just a unit. I mean, it's something that receives an input and gives us something we give it data or we give it for instance to the cell phone we give it something and then we get a result, but we don't know what is happening inside that box. We don't really know how it works. We know that it is a compilation of hardware software and so on and Wi-Fi communication as Coral was saying, but we never really know. And when I say we know, I mean as a user, we don't really have a clear idea of what is happening within the technology when it gives us some result back. And that obviously causes various problems besides the ones that have already been mentioned regarding environmental impact, but it gives us three possibilities. The first one is that we cannot adapt it. We don't know how they work. We cannot understand them so we can change them so that they can be used for different cases of use. We cannot repair them and I think that that is something that is right now hot topic with that right to repair and all the movements that try to generate a greater access to the possibility of repairing and using electronic devices and since we don't have access to the design. We don't really know how they work. So here we have a few images that I think are really iconic. The one that you have to your right. BMW, it seems like like a joke. BMW has a car and if you wanted the feature of heating your seat, you had to pay $12 and everyone wanted to have it as if it were a software product, you pay a subscription and there's a comic book that said subscribe quickly to have an airbag. If there's a, if there's a crash, because it was ridiculous but I wanted to show it just to illustrate what coral was saying previously how technology has become so complex that the control of hardware and the physical interface of technology. Well now we can do it with software and if we don't have access to that software then we're outside I mean we're left outside in something like a car. So, and I always have that that example the invisible woman because she talks about the fact that most women. We find that phones are too big for our hands and it's a design that is has been made by a series of people who are in a business in a in a design team. I mean Apple and so on and other companies and we can't we can't change it there's nothing we can do. We can't play in or try to adapt our hand to what we have, but we adapted technology instead of having a technology that is comfortable for whatever we want to do. So as I was saying there are different consequences and we mentioned many of those consequences such as the dependence from manufacturers the program obsolescence. There are some users who are left outside of certain technologies that are not designed for them. And, and there's mainly a passive role of users with regards to technology we simply receive a design we use it and there's nothing that we can really do if that doesn't work. And if they tell us that that is obsolete and we have to throw it away, then we will and we will have to purchase another phone because we won't be able to use it any longer. So this thing that happens to consumers that happens to everyday users happens as well. And that's really is a problem. And that is where I specialize to people who work in science and technology. And they have the same problem with the tools that they use for research for instance these are tools that in general cannot be modified. They are completely depend on their suppliers. And if they break, it's very, very problematic for them to repair them. So, what I wanted to bring to this table is this question what will happen if we could think design hardware, this physical tools as part of the comments, what would happen if I were to think that hardware is information as I would think of software. So, then that layer that information layer could be shared. I could, since it's something that I can digitize I can modify it I can download it. I can understand how it works I can study it, I can not only study it I could collaborate with others. And I could even innovate with others that we love using so much innovate. And I could also think about different business models that are not just a structivist and that have a captive user. I could have something collaborative that would really benefit from that margin that add that value that added value and the information is available. So we could think that maybe in the future in the next five years we could have a world where I can download the designs of things and I could say no this cell phone is not useful for me I'm going to change it and I'm going to do this with that and I have someone in my neighborhood who could do that modification for me and myself. So, what happens. Well this is in the next five 10 years I think that's how I see it. So what would happen if we do an experiment right now and I show you the designs of some tools that put them at the disposal of the of the public now, what would happen. This is a case that I'm studying right now, which is a microscope it's open hardware Microsoft called open flexure. This is a design. That is where I am there in the UK in the university and bath university. And this is a physicist who was playing with 3d printing he was trying out different things. And he wanted to test whether he could create a mechanism that is used in high precision microscopes with 3d printing and he actually started it and and it works. So, I'm going to take a bowman who's this person I was talking about who's here on this picture. The great idea genius idea of seeing if he could print that 3d microscope and he started sharing it on on an online so he he did it with CAD with CAD to print on 3d and going to share it with the world. Okay, take one working and that was 2016. Well, since Richard decided to offer it in open code as if it were software with licenses that are usually used for hardware which are very similar to software licenses. Since 2016 until now this microscope that he built using that piece of that piece printed 3d printed was reproduced in all of the pink countries even in the Antarctic because they took it to an expedition in Antarctic. And that's, that's how they use the microscope over there so if you go to open flexure.org you can download the instructions and the the blueprints to print it and then the instructions to to set it up so everything is there except for them. Everything is in 3d plastic 3d printed plastic except for the glass for the optics, and it, and actually that plastic can be recycled so the characteristics of this microscope that make it so interesting is that wherever you have a 3d printer you could build one. And secondly, depending on what lenses you can access to for instance a web camera to very high complexity lens you could create a microscope of whatever complexity you would require. These are some of the images that they took with the microscope and these are some examples on the website and open flexure.org you could download the instructions so what happens when in 2016. A researcher says well actually this would be useful for anyone and I think that this knowledge this this knowledge that I need to share so that other people can benefit from it. I will put it here so what happened in this year there were different initiatives that without making an effort without the original group making any effort. Without having any support from the university actually quite the opposite university was saying that that was a loss of time. Suddenly we have a group in Ireland who said, well this instrument and the stool is great for me so that I can monitor the concentration of micro plastics in the ocean. So that has nothing to do with the original idea. Nobody thought about that in the original team. There is a physicist and other people who were doing our post PhD study. They never got in touch with this group. They never even sent each other an email they just found out that a girl, yeah, who, and yeah, who is studying her PhD in Ireland said, she's in a group they're monitoring micro plastics in the fauna and in the beaches and with micro plastics we have a very important problem which is that there is no baseline. We know that there are problems but we don't know what's the baseline. So we need to have tools that are accessible and cheap so that more people can actually measure how many micro plastics we have in our environment and to report it. So imagine measuring all of this worldwide it would be very complex you need something that is very accessible and very easy so what she did was she downloaded the design of the microscope. And she adapted it she modified it for what she needed which was combining it with a different tool that she already had that was actually very cheap. She started using it and she started generating these samples and this thing here which we call jelly labs. They analyze it both in the water as in the animals the fauna and what she does is disseminate this modified my microscope in different campaigns in Ireland in the Irish coast to monitor the concentration of micro plastics in the coastline. This actually happened because she found it and she modified it. Something else that happened was that in Tanzania. This maker space called bongo tech which is a very interesting space because they're the first in Tanzania to create 3d printers with electronic waste I don't know if you know it but they are exporting electronic ways to Africa and they had piles and piles of waste and decided they decided to start building 3d printers with that they're amazing they're geniuses there are three engineers in Tanzania and they're doing this. And when they saw that this microscope could be downloaded they decided to build it locally with their 3d printers. I was talking about this when I talked about different business models they sell those microscopes to the Fakara Health Institute a very important clinic in Tanzania so that they can do different researchers in the area because you know that microscope are very hard to find in Tanzania when they break nobody can sell them to you and it's very difficult to repair and it's always better to buy a new one than to repair it. So now they are producing the microscopes so that they can use it and if they need any changes they just ask them to do it and the same thing with schools they simply change the lens. So this is a more higher resolution lens than the one in the schools and it generated lots of different campaigns in Tanzania with regards to education accessible education and much more fun for the kids obviously. And finally this other group I mean all of this happened once again without having to make an effort. This is just by publishing the design. This is a lab which is the open agroecological lab in Argentina I will tell you about it because I'm part of this project and this is an initiative here you see that there are lots of logos. These are people from the exact sciences in Kudo University of Cooperative called IU which is cooperative for the production of wine and juices in Mendoza. And we also have USAT which is a movement of peasants without a land who are part of Via Campesina and the problem that they had in Mendoza was that there were lots of people. It's actually small producers, families who are doing an agroecological transition but nobody researches what these producers do. It's very difficult for them to have data and in the official agenda it's not easy in Argentina. So we don't have data, we don't have the science for small producers that will allow them to understand how their production evolves and for consumers it's difficult to understand how they are making progress. So they said let's use this microscope amongst other open tools to create an open agroecological lab and that is what they're doing. These are educational campaigns with the peasants school, Escuela Campesina, but they also built five of these microscopes and they're looking at microorganisms in the soil, how the soil health changes as they transition to agroecology. And these are just three cases, there are lots of other cases but I didn't have time to show you all the cases. So the idea is that in order to produce open hardware we have a series of different networks in technological production. So we have communities, maker spaces, governments, universities and we all need to collaborate so that there are more examples of this so that it is always of better quality. And some of the communities that exist, I actually mentioned some of them superficially are the global community of science, open science hardware this is the Latin American community and then there is the African community where we have for instance the Tanzania lab. How can we make this happen because it's amazing but how can we make it a reality? So up till now it has happened because voluntary, there have been voluntary efforts, I mean the goodwill of people, people in their free time are doing things because we think that open hardware is necessary but there is a EU report on opens hardware they mentioned, I mean about innovation they mentioned hardware but just a little bit. So for instance in the scarcity of products we are not considering this but they should and there is the UNESCO open science recommendation where they talk about the fact that open hardware is and it's seminal for this to happen so there are some efforts we have to include this in the educational community we have to have projects during the pandemic we had lots of projects with open hardware we needed to see which ones were best and connect with them with people to professionalize designs and so on for instance. We have to demand that open is a criteria for public purchase for instance, government software should be open, have incentives for SMEs so that they use these designs. There are two companies, one in Germany and one in Portugal who are doing these designs in an open way and then having support for key projects such as the microscope that can be used for lots of different things. So free tools are recoverable, they can be adapted to different scenarios, it's about technological sovereignty and the most important thing is that they allow many more people to express their ideas and these new paradigms for a transition that we require because we need new ideas and new paradigms because the old ideas have letters where we currently are so that's all thank you very much and I don't know if you have any questions but if you do here I am and I'm going to stop sharing my screen now. Thank you thank you so much Julieta. Really. I usually. I'm very curious about these things and and with regards to open software and I'm very familiar with it but I. I love having listened to the term technological 70 and the example of Tanzania using ways to create this microscope based 3D printers I think is amazing. And for then the Q&A, I will ask you to talk about the I will ask you to talk about the plastic that is used for 3D printers that is reusable so that way we can really close the whole cycle if that's all right with you. Thank you so much Julieta very interesting and I just wanted to remind you to those of you who are listening and I hope you can hear me well that the questions can be written on the chat box and. I'm going to give now the floor to Kim funds bar and I was saying at the beginning that in the first session we talked about the fact that I report that analyzes the life cycle of digital technologies has now been published in Spanish talking about the impact for instance of a plasma screen and what's the impact through all through their life cycle and all of that is present in a report, a report that has been done in the EU and one of the MPs that's behind that report is actually the next speaker Kim fans find that who is a. An MP of the European greens and we're always talking about software hardware but obviously in order for changes to be brought about and be here as quickly as possible we also have to think about institutions, which are the ones who. Are just late and finance in a certain way as well, those new movements so we here are very lucky to have Kim, who's a European MP who's very active, she works in gender equality LGTB rights, she's a member of the social affairs commission. So that's where she tackles the rights of workers in the digital economy, for instance, and the reason why she's here is because she's also a member of the interior market and protection of the consumer where she works on. An intelligence and artificial intelligence that is respectful with human rights that's also something about we have to take into account and she also deals with green. A digital transition Kim in a context such as the one that we find ourselves in with an energy crisis as far city of raw materials. We don't know if it is actually circumstantial or structural and climate crisis, what could you say about the strategies and the policies that the EU has for digital transition. And even more so what are the greens proposals to try and find a balance between all of those proposals and transitions. Thank you so much. I'm going to be speaking in English. Thank you so much for the invitation to this event. I hope the interpretation is working. And I think actually that the previous speakers who are very impressive have already given like a great insight in why it is so necessary to talk about this topic. And I will try to reflect a bit more on the topic really from the European policy perspective. And we'll try to sort of pinpoint where we're at right now and then show what are our proposals for the way forward and maybe to start at the very basis. The European Commission moment at the moment has two main priorities and one is Europe fits for the digital age and the other one is the European Green Deal. And so far we have made great progress on both domains during this mandate. When it comes to digital policies we now have the Digital Markets Act, which is trying to make sure that we have fair competitive digital markets and really fights against the big tech companies that are trying to decide everything. We have the Digital Services Act, which is purely on platforms and how they should behave on the Internet and how we can make sure that we as people decide again what we can see online or not instead of the big tech companies. And then we have several other legislations that are more about data. For example, the Data Act and the Data Governance Act, which is about data sharing and about making sure that we have access to data and the Artificial Intelligence Act where I am a shadow on and working on very actively right now and in the Artificial Intelligence Act, we are trying to regulate artificial intelligence, which is not easy. It's the first time we're trying to do that. There's no other Artificial Intelligence Act yet in the world. And it's really about the whole sphere of Artificial Intelligence, really from the start, the use of data, the programming and then the application of Artificial Intelligence. And then we have the European Green Deal, and there we also have a lot of new legislation. I think most importantly, the European Climate Law and then under that the Fit for 55 package, trying to make sure we reach the goals within the European Climate Law. But to be honest, when you really look at the proposals that have come out so far, we haven't seen a lot of proposals to make the digitization green. It's been very separate. And I think there's no greater example than where it goes wrong than when you look at the European Recovery Fund. This is also known as the COVID Fund. So the money that countries can get from the European Commission to make sure that their economies keep running, even though we have suffered a worldwide pandemic for two years. So in the basic standards to receive this funding, you had to show you were going to invest in certain things. One of the things was really sustainability and the climate transition and investing in that. And one of the other things was digitization. But there was nowhere it said, make sure that if you invest in digitization, you have sustainable data centers. You have sustainable digital infrastructure. Now, any digitization was fine. So just having a polluting data center somewhere would be okay for this fund, while this fund should also have promoted sustainability. And I think this complete distortion of these two things is very clear way of showing how the Commission has been looking at digitization. And luckily, we are seeing that there's a shift now, that the conversation about digitization and the sustainability aspect of that is been taken up by the European Commission. But it's still a very hard fight, because in the end, a lot of things happen in silos. And I think that happens everywhere in the world. And we see it also in environmental NGOs, environmental NGOs don't talk so much about digital and we see that digital rights NGOs don't talk so much about sustainability. And it's really something, you know, where we have to try to put these two things together, we have to put the people together and really have to have these discussions like we're having today. So the question is, how do we make Europe both digital and green? So the main thing we hear from the European Commission is, you know, the promising tool that technology can be in our fight to save the environment. And for sure, there can be a very, they can be a very effective tool. You know, we know that artificial intelligence and data will be really important in our transition to renewables. It can help protect climate disasters. You know, most of the climate reports wouldn't have been able to be done without, you know, big data and modeling. You know, we also know that data can really find more evidence to reduce pollution and mobility and really make sure that we can in the end have a fully circular economy. And I think that these promises are very true, but they won't happen magically. And that's what we're seeing a lot that's like, oh, yeah, it's amazing. This can all happen. But, you know, how, how, how will we will make it happen in my opinion is legislation. We cannot just expect everyone to focus on sustainable digitization. So maybe one of the things that the European Commission has been trying to do now is really look at data centers. And I think it's quite, quite disappointing what the European Commission did there because they now have a proposal on sustainable data centers. And again, it's not based on setting legal standards. It is about making sure that it is just based on voluntary proposals and voluntary efforts of data center, data center companies. So I think it's this is one of the points where we really have to continue pushing, making sure that, you know, we reduce energy consumption of data centers, but also make sure the reduction of water, the waste and toxins also from from the infrastructure itself and the hardware itself in the data centers to have really strong legislation for that. That is one of the points that we really have to focus on now and make sure they happen. And I find it quite interesting because we're also, of course, not only looking at more the long term, you know, fight against climate change, we're also at the energy crisis we're in right now, that for example, the data centers are one are really the elephant in the row. It's not a topic that's being discussed. Also not on a European level. And I find that very, very sad to say, but it is very obvious that, you know, for many people, we still have the cloud. And it sounds great. The cloud is like something in the sky that doesn't pollute, right? But unfortunately, behind the cloud, there's these polluting data centers and we could really do a lot of things to make sure that they don't use that much energy or if they do to, for example, reuse the heat in other in other uses. And I think it's quite interesting in the Netherlands, we have this effort. We've done this effort to make sure that one of the biggest data centers we have in the country now gives their heat to the central heating district in the area of Amsterdam. And in that way, you know, reusing the heat. So there are very positive examples. But, you know, they, as I said, this happened because there was subsidy for it because they wanted to try out of work. It wasn't because there's standards in legislation for that. And that's what we need. And I think, you know, setting standards for Europe to have these very green data centers will not only help the environment, but also give Europe very competitive benefits because in the end, you know, it's very important for a lot of companies to be seen as green. So also more companies will then want to be on our data centers. And I think in line with that, there's there's also some some new legislative proposals that are coming up that that can be be helpful here. For example, the new circular economy legislation, where we are going to set standards on how to, you know, see how repairable products are, but also green claims, which will be about greenwashing and, you know, setting standards on how you can call yourself green. And I think these are very important first steps to make sure that we can actually set these standards because one of the biggest issues we have. And I think that was also already mentioned before is that it's that this digitization is a black box. We don't know exactly how much energy Google uses. And they're very secretive about this. They don't want us to know because they want to claim they're green. Every time Amazon comes to talk to me, you know, Amazon, the company that sells the most products in the world and has like cars running around every day and cargo flights running around every country and around the world every day are always telling me that they're carbon neutral. And I think it's very important that we start, you know, settings like have more information and set standards on that. And one of the ways that we are trying to do that right now is in the Artificial Intelligence Act. And in the Artificial Intelligence Act, we as greens are fighting for more transparency on how much energy actually software uses. And I think it is, first of all, crucial for us in the two sets to set more standards and to make sure that we reduce our energy consumption. But secondly, I think it's also very important for the uptake of artificial intelligence. You know, if you are a small company, someone tells you, hey, you can buy my artificial intelligence to improve some of your systems in your company. And you then find out that it doubles your your energy bill. You are in big trouble. So I think it's this is one of the crucial fights that we are picking now in the Artificial Intelligence Act. But another point in our Artificial Intelligence Act, which I think is very important is that we look a bit more broadly at software and what the impact and implications of the use of software can be and make sure that we do proper research, which means classifying it as high risk on software that is being used that could possibly potentially harm the environment. Then there's now at the moment we are really working really hard on the Data Governance Act. And in this act, we are trying to make sure that we have proper sharing of data between governments. As I said before, the use of data is going to be crucial for the green transition and it can really bring us a lot. But not if every company keeps sitting on their own data and makes it really expensive. And one of the things that we've been trying to do in the Data Governance Act is making sure that when it comes to data, that will benefit the environment, that will help combat the climate crisis, that we will make sure that this data is obligatory shared between companies and between governments and companies so we can make sure that we can optimize all the production processes as much as possible and introduce the climate impact. So I think then when we're talking about sustainable green digitization, these are the acts that are coming up right now that we are working on right now. And one of them, which is something that has been a long term green proposal that isn't out yet, is of course the right to repair. And this really would, you know, it always sounds quite an end-of-pipe solution, I think, when you just hear the right to repair, like, oh, I have a smartphone here, it's broken, so then I can go somewhere and it will be repaired. But this will have a huge impact on the whole infrastructure of digitization and how it is made and the whole line of production. Because what it means is that the iPhone cannot, you know, be glued their battery anymore against their system, because the battery will have to be able to be replaced. And it means that you will have modular mobile phones where all the products can be replaced to make sure that they last longer. And what we have proposed is to have this right to repair in the European Union to make it a legislation and to make sure that all the companies that are producing digital technology, that they have to abide by it. And the European Commission had promised that the right to repair would be published, I think, already by now. And all the time, over and over again, we are seeing that the European Commission is delaying this. And it's very clearly due to the fact that these big companies, and especially Apple, don't want this. Because their whole system and their whole business model is based on making phones that break at some point, so you will buy a new one. And I think this is going to be one of the major challenges when we're talking about sustainable digitization. To go from this buy and throw away culture to a system where we have a phone that will stay good for 10 years, but will also still be updated for 10 years. And that is also one of the things that is problematic that we're seeing right now. Yeah, my phone might still work, but a lot of apps are not working on my phone anymore because the companies are not providing the updates anymore. Same goes for laptops, of course, where you don't have these updates anymore. And these are the things that we are really trying out to make sure that for as long as products work, these updates have to stay available. That if you are careful with your product, that you can actually have a benefit from that and that you're not being punished by big companies who just want to make more money. Then, as I said before, it's really important that we have strong legislation on these data centers and really make sure that there's European standards everywhere. I think another big point, which is sometimes a bit controversial, so I'm very curious what the people in this talk, I think, is the discussion of Bitcoin. We see that because of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, but mainly Bitcoin, a lot of old school power plants, for example, have been reopened to do the proofing of the Bitcoins. And I think if there is one thing that we have to look at really critically in an energy crisis, is the reopening of these cool power plants and using that energy for a currency that is used for speculation on a large scale. But I'm very happy to hear if there's a people who have other thoughts on it, because I know it is controversial within the Green family sometimes. And I think, lastly, what we really need is to make sure that we have legislation that really looks at infrastructure and to see how we can make sure that our general infrastructure, so our internet infrastructure, the cables in the ground, et cetera, stay in the hands of the public and by doing so, having still the opportunity to make everything green. Because what we are seeing is that the digital world in the end is taken over almost completely by corporations, big tech corporations that are only here for profit. And as long as that is the case, they will lobby like Apple is doing on the right repair, like other companies have been doing on the AI to get rid of environmental obligations in the Artificial Intelligence Act. And then we will not get to a point where we have sustainable digitization. So my message is the EU has to step up its game. We have a lot of ideas and solutions. We just have to make sure that they become more generally accepted, that people don't think about the cloud as something beautiful and light, that you're using your smartphone won't only cost the energy it takes to charge it. And I think if we in the end, you know, get a broader debate on this and then have better data sharing, really go for a circular economy, the right to repair, standard for producers and data centers, then we can really make a difference and have true sustainable digitization. Thank you. Thank you very much, Kim. Thank you so much, Kim. As you were saying, the repair score that you were mentioning, which is now being discussed in the EU. Well, actually, thinking about programmed obsolescence is something that any consumer thinks is monstrous. It should be so simple to combat it, but we are clashing against the business model. We are clashing against the big ones. So the enemy is actually the most innovative one, the most powerful one, the one who has the best image. So it's difficult. It's hard. So I tried to step in your shoes and I do not envy you really, but we will ask you some questions later on about this so that you can tell us how you're working on it in the, in the EU against these lobbies and so on. So I think that we have seen lots of complementary aspects during this session. We have seen software hardware and then politics and how there are lots of things that we might think are obvious, but we have to fight for them. We have to fight against against Goliaths, the Goliaths of the world. But I want to go back to Koral now to ask her a question. You know that you can ask as many questions as you like on the chat. Koral, I was listening to you and I was thinking about Gibbons paradox, you know, the rebound effect of efficiency for those of you listening. If you don't, if you, if you don't know what is Gibbons paradox, it's actually a trend. Very well tested and proven paradox is that for a higher efficiency, we don't necessarily reduce consumption. In another session, we were talking about this and we were giving, for instance, the example of, of irrigation. There were some improvements in irrigation in Spain that were supposed to save 30% of water and we thought that we were going to save water, but in the end we used more hectares with irrigation so we spent more water than expected. So when efficiency allows for reduction in consumption, what we do is consume more. Why? Well, because we increase our consumption. So now that we were talking about efficiency in software, 5G is coming, it's coming to us, the internet of things. How can we avoid for that Gibbons paradox to take place in the, in digital technologies as well because that would create much more digitization. Yes, very much so. Well, actually here, I think that the thing is, is that really I think that this has just begun, and we have already tackled many different topics but the internet of things, the let's computing the data centers, the famous cloud that a scheme was saying, even sounds poetic and ethereal, I think that that's why they chose that name. But it isn't, it isn't, it's a very physical, very tangible thing and very hot thing that uses lots of energy. But that's where we're headed. We are headed to the use of much more technology and we're used, we're going on a road of greater data use. So either we change things or it will not be feasible, it will not be something that we can withstand and the energy charge is going to be too much. So what do we need to do? Well, I am a very optimistic person, I need to start off with that. I think we need lots of education, we all need to be educated. Technology in the end, as part of our lives is something quite recent. I think it has had something positive is that it has helped us to to leap forward in the use of technology, all of us have learned lots of things, but quite suddenly so now we need to raise awareness. That's why in our group we are so focusing in the dissemination aspect of things that is why we develop it so much and dedicate so much time to it because we think it's very important because when I tell people about software they believe it, and they start doing some things. So I think that the multiplication of technology is going to happen, whether we like it or not, but that evolution needs to be done in a conscious way. And as Kim was saying in Europe we have to fight for the laws and there are big technology lobbies that are resistant, they don't want to end those things and in Spain we're also making lots of effort. So the implementation is making lots of effort for the national strategy for artificial intelligence data centers and all of those things and that is great but that has to be thoughtful. And it is very easy from my point of view, because I'm not a politician to include in all of the terms and conditions when we develop software that we need to take into account the resources being used. We cannot just do it freely, as though there was nothing backing it up we have to take into account this criteria, and those are the terms and conditions that will get the tenders, they will get those awards. And I think that in the, and I think that that multiplication of technology will take place. Well, we were also analyzing in other sessions that we did this year and last year with the lack of something about whether there is enough material enough metals enough rare earth in the world for that because there are limits material limits to all of that. So, maybe as a little told us we will clash against that scarcity but we will go step by step. And I was listening to you and I was thinking about Yoda in Star Wars. I don't know how he says it's in Spanish, but in English it says clouded by the dark side the future is so the future is dark because of that cloud. It's true the cloud that is supposedly light actually has a very dark side, which is the one that we're talking about here. I asked you, because you're from Argentina you work in the UK, you are linked to the whole world and lots of research groups and your project belongs to the US. There's a lot about the development I mean the open hardware it says a lot about the development of technology with regards to the north south relationship and that tension because the examples that we have seen in Tanzania for instance and other places. They have closed doors I mean they, they don't have the budget but then they get these other doors open to them thanks to open hardware so tell us about this tension how can we work against that tension and don't forget to tell us about plastics. Actually, I shared some links and the last link I shared is actually the one dealing with an initiative that is in Nairobi right now. It's tech for trade I think she said, and this space that that creates coils for 3D for 3D printers by recycling bottles. So, you can you know that PT can be recycled, and, and we can use that instead of PLA which is the one that is used for 3D printers but there are many open code structures that help us, and instead of using the PLA that is used for 3D printers once it's already being used if we turn it into pellets into very small pieces, then we could extrude it and we could then have coils again for 3D printing. So I just shared that print that link but if you Google it open source extruders that you will see that there are lots of designs. That's for the tension between north and south absolutely going back to what Koral was saying I think that it is about to see how we, we own the technology we need to own the technology because if we're still afraid or if we talk about the dark side and we and we get frozen then we will leave the road free for big corpse to use it. So we have to own the technology so that it is of use to us. And in the experiences that I see in Argentina and Peru, in Tanzania as well this is quite clear because, and that is why I was talking about technological sovereignty because there is a great dependence of technology because technology is, is ever present and one year in a country where importing is very difficult for instance in Tanzania. If you want to repair your microscope that was broken you have to pay for the engineer who will come from Europe. The salary of the person who comes from Europe and you will have to pay for their stay. So you'd rather pay for a new microscope that will take a month to come here and the same thing happens in Latin America. So things are designed usually in the north, in the global north, and in the global south what happens is that we are left with what, with what is left. And, and that is why we, we see an urgency in changing things. And I see that with these initiatives and, and rethinking technology and the design of technology as part of the comments because it opens doors for us. And we can go back to a local technological production. There are other things obviously that are very difficult for instance. There are certain things that are made in China, I cannot purchase a chip from anywhere. And with regards to that, especially with the scarcity of semiconductors and the crisis that we are living right now. I am getting, I'm guessing that what we can do right now is to try and own technology to stop being afraid. So technology is just another field that we have to control. And once we understand that, then I think that I don't know if you understood that part of my presentation but what is necessary is for us to to start this off of this literacy. It's not that boys and girls need to know how to program. No, no, no, it's not for all of us to be coders and we all have our dream job from beach somewhere and code from there. No, no, no, we need to critically be aware of what technology is we need to all be capable of opening that black box and understanding it. I also wanted to ask Kim, because I mentioned it previously. It must be frustrating to face at the EU. I wouldn't say even companies but political groups who do not want to look in the long term when they make decisions. They are defending interests, which can be relevant in the economy at that time, but we don't want to look towards the horizon and the future because they never understand the contradictions of this development that they are always fighting for. How can you face those political resistance that do not want to look at the long term? Yeah, right now it's actually pretty stunning. They're like the conservatives right now are all the time asking for a moratorium on new environmental legislation because they're afraid some companies will suffer too much with the current energy crisis. That's why we cannot have any legislation to combat the biodiversity crisis or the climate crisis anymore in their opinion, which of course is in my opinion quite ludicrous. However, they just look at the world from a different way. I think we as Greens, we look from an ecological perspective and we look at the future and we want to make sure that future generations have it better than we have, or at least have it the same. And for other groups, they still really believe that if we have a good market-based economy where companies are thriving, where SMEs are thriving, then everyone will thrive in the end. And that's why it's very important also to see the market side of all these sustainability impacts. So as I said, I think it's very important that if we want to be the leader in artificial intelligence that we make sure that we are transparent about the energy use of artificial intelligence because otherwise the uptake for small and medium companies will be very hard or they will go bankrupt when they realize how much they have to pay for the energy bills. Also, when it comes to data sharing, they're quite resistant to that. But I think if we really want to be the leaders on the data market and the leaders in sustainability and making sure we know the most, we have the most knowledge on sustainability and we can become world leaders there. Same goes for the data centers. As I said, it's also a business opportunity to have sustainable data centers and for companies to be able to say we are running on sustainable data centers. So perhaps it's not their first priority is the climate and biodiversity in the environment as it is for us. But you can always appeal to their market issues. And then of course, one of the most important things that many of these groups are concerned about is the so-called strategic autonomy. We've seen during the pandemic, we cannot produce our own masks. We cannot produce our own vaccines. We are really lagging behind in the world. And when it comes to digitization, we don't have the raw materials in Europe. And we don't produce the chips. We don't produce a lot of the technologies that we are going to need. And there I think we do see that there's quite some appetite for really having a circular economy and making sure that these raw materials stay within Europe and can be reused within Europe to become strategically more autonomous. So there it really actually helps in the efforts to have more green digitization. Thank you, Kim. Julieta, did you raise your hand? Yes, I did because I thought what Kim was saying was great. But for instance, one of the things that happens to me is that it's very difficult to try and be a bit more conscious aware with electronics and so on. I have a fair point, a fair phone. For those of you who don't know it, it's a German phone that can be repaired. That's modular. It's amazing. But it's much more expensive than other alternatives, much more expensive. So I was thinking what is, I mean, I think that what Kim was saying is key. I mean, we need institutional support. But besides that, I mean, people, when you look at cases in Latin America and in Africa, people need to live off of something. So we have to think, how can we think about those new business models? How can we find a way for SMEs to produce in the way that we want them to produce? I think that that is what the road to be followed, I think. Bruno was asking, how do you call that phone? I'd say it's Dutch, actually, fair phone. I do have one. And I think it's Dutch. I also had a fair phone and my good friend Carlos as well had one. And to be honest, not only is it more expensive, but it wasn't of the greatest quality. But I thought it was fundamental to really bet for that sort of phone. But I'm not going to talk about that. It's a different debate, because I've had lots of debates about fair phone. But it's true that it's modular, which is something that we need to tend to. If you repair something, you can just replace it and that's it. And your phone is the same. So that modular character is something that needs to be taken into account. And it also has a lower environmental impact. And that is why it's much more expensive, because they want to do things right. And I wanted to ask questions from the audience, but we are getting, we don't have the time, but I saw that there was a question for Coral that Esteve was asking. In your research group, you have analyzed the difference between consumption in centralized networks and decentralized networks, centralized such as Instagram and so on, and then decentralized networks. Well, in my research group, we are, it's actually a very small research group. It's, I don't know, we're a small group. I mean, we haven't, we have, we have done lots of studies, but not all of the studies because the EET that I showed you, that allows us to measure is connected to a computer so we can simulate certain execution environments such as distributed or decentralized environments. So in regards to social networks for now, for now, because that is still advancing, we are simply measuring the client side with, which is the final user. So in social networks, that is what we use for dissemination purposes. So that is why I'm like I'm a final user of social networks and I use it with a client that I have in my cell phone as a normal use of social networks. And right now we are developing the laboratory and we are enlarging it to try and simulate decentralized cloud client server distributed computation. But as I said previously, even if it seems that there's lots of us in our research group is just a few of us and we have lots of things to do yet, but I think that we are on the right path. And I'm going to say two more things if you'll allow me to do so. The first thing is that I think that things are moving along nicely. I think that technology is now being better understood by people and I think that there is more awareness of the impact of technology. We have to understand that technology and artificial intelligence and data centers have had to react quite quickly to the changes that came about. And we are too mature, we could say, to really have that efficiency that we need, but I think that it'll come. And the second thing that I believe has been mentioned previously, and I think it's very important with regards to companies and so on, it's fighting against greenwashing companies who just put that little stamp saying I'm green, I'm great. Just give me your money, but then you dig deeper and you find that they're not green, they're gray, and we have found lots of them. We thought, oh, this one looks to be green and then you scratch on the surface and you see that they're not. And that is basic, we cannot be lying to users, we need to find a way that users can interpret technology like they would a washing machine. And when you see a washing machine with an A tag on it, you know what that means? Well, the same thing has to be done with hardware, software, cloud, data centers, everything. They need to have their little letters and when you're going to rent a cloud service, you have to have a tag to look at and it has to follow certain standards. It's not because you say you're green, no, it has to be proven. So something else that we think follows that trend, because people are worried about the green, but there is not enough maturity is where we find lots of greenwashing and we have to fight against that. Yes, absolutely. And that is why I think that we have to have that repair score that is going to be approved in the EU, because that actually comes from the green group to demand that that repair score also shows the price of the parts when you repair. So when you purchase a phone, if something goes wrong and you have to repair it, you need to know how much it will cost you. So this repair score is something that is now being debated. And I have another question here and I'm sorry, but I have to ask you to be very, very brief because we are running out of time, we feel too comfortable here and time flies. So they're asking Julieta, Cesar Peña was saying with regards to technological sovereignty. I recently heard these arguments. Cryptocurrency is good for those who don't want to be in the banking system and NFTs allow creators not to depend from big companies. Do you think that this is being misinterpreted? Do you think that concepts such as technological sovereignty is not being understood? What can I say? I don't know. I mean, I'm not an expert on this topic. I have to just say that it's not my topic. But I think that we can each interpret concepts as we wish, obviously. And yes, it's not the technological sovereignty I was talking about. Absolutely. I think that this is a misunderstanding. I don't know if it's actually, I think that people are trying to interpret things incorrectly on purpose. I think that it'd be good what Coral was saying. If we could all have all the information, it's like nutritional score, right? You need to know what you're going to eat. It'd be great to know what you're going to consume with regards to technology as well. No, that's not the technological sovereignty I was thinking about. Kim, there's another question for you. A couple of questions for you. One is if you could give more information about the Green New Deal, but that would take too long. But maybe you could share some links with regards to the Green New Deal so that someone could then visit the links and see what is your point of view with regards to Green New Deal. I mean, the Greens point of view. And the other question is if you could explain in depth the coal and cryptocurrency, but I have to tell you that that was something that we tackle during the second session. So we will send you the links to the videos once the sessions are done and you will be able to get a better idea. But those are the two questions that were asked to you, Kim, if you want to just say something superficially. So Green New Deal, if you want to share some links and if you could talk about those coal electricity stations and cryptocurrency. Yes, so on the Green Deal I will indeed send some links because that's not something to tackle in a minute. But on Bitcoin, you have this whole proof of work system to make sure that Bitcoin is validated and that just costs a lot of energy. And we've seen that in many places where it was actually too expensive, it became too expensive to use coal. It was just not, how do you call it, profitable enough anymore? Then they reopened them because suddenly it was profitable to use these coal plants to have data centers where Bitcoin were running on. And this is one of the things that we've tried to tackle as Greens in reports or in legislation on Bitcoin to ban that specific type of Bitcoin in the European Union where you use proof of work, which costs a lot of energy. But unfortunately the crypto lobby found out and then they now actually changed the standpoint of the European Parliament in such a way that now investing in Bitcoin will be perhaps deemed as sustainable. So this is a very big fight, it's a long political fight that we still have ahead of us. But I think when we're talking about Bitcoin and NFTs and all these things, it's just super important that we not only look at, well, is this a fun innovative thing invented by some people from Silicon Valley? Does it also serve a purpose and also is it in any way sustainable? So that's more the point I was trying to make. I'll put some links on the green deal in the chat. I'll also inform you for those of you listening to us that when these sessions are done, we will also have on our website a summary with all the presentations as well that you have seen here, such as the ones shared by the two first speakers, if they agree with that, we will also upload their presentations. And we will also have some links if you don't see them on the chat. We will also include the most important links on that information and I have to ask you to say goodbye in a minute because I'm afraid that we just run out of time where we're supposed to end at half past seven. But I will ask you to dedicate the next minute to launch a message about your vision. I know that a minute is too short, but if you could talk about your vision on technology and the future that we are to expect and we will end following the same order that we began with. Well, what I have to say is that technology is a tool that is our disposal, we have to use it, we mustn't be afraid of it, we have to help integrate it so that it is part of our lives. And we have to make it easily accessible to everyone so that everyone can use it and we need to be aware of the impact that it has from a software and a hardware point of view and we need to be critical. We have to have a critical point of view, as we do with other fields of life, we have to do it here. And if there are any software professionals here please remember about that. And for everyone to all the users to try and do all of those things that can help with our use of software and if there is someone from the public administration you have to start legislating a bit quick, a bit quicker, and we have to keep on working because that's what's important and thank you so much. No, thank you, thank you, it's really been a pleasure to listen to you and learn from you. Julieta, one minute. Oh, well, first of all, thank you so much, it was a great exchange of ideas, and I want to take my this comment about normalization standardization I know that in this capitalistic world it's impossible it would be ideal but it's not possible. The last message would be technology is just another territory that we need to conquer from a political standpoint so we would love to talk to public administrations if they're around, and we need this we need collaborations we need to have a dialogue with political parties with social movements with those who can lead these these movements that are all voluntary because everything that I mentioned this just voluntary efforts, we need to institutionalize all of these things so that this is a vision that we will have really present in the next five years thank you thank you so much Julieta it's really been a pleasure to listen to you. And you have opened new lines of thought that I, we hadn't really considered Kim, you have a minute to give us your vision, please. Well, I think a lot has been said already by the previous speakers so I'll just keep it very short I think what I learned from from course presentation is really that you know the more data we have and more we can explain the impact of globalization on the environment you know the better we will be and in the end tackling it and I think Julieta give a lot of amazing examples on how that's already happening in practice. And now we just have to get both of those stories put them in a good narrative and make sure that these people in Europe are taking direction. Thank you so much Kim. I even have the title. Technological sovereignty was going to say energetic sovereignty but that's because we're polluted by those ideas so that's all we wanted to say I'm actually hungry for more but that's what happens with good with good conferences we will be sending you the link with all of the different conferences and we will have a summary page with all the presentations and with all the links. And I just want to thank you all thank you to those of you who have been here with us. And on behalf of the different organizers the green Europeans Foundation. And transition green transition we wanted to thank this amazing women coral Julieta and Kim it's been a pleasure to have you all here and we hope you also have enjoyed this little time we spent together and we will be following whatever you do your work. And from transit transit from Verde. We want to thank you all for being here, we will keep on organizing a series such as this one, and we ask you to support us we need your support. Thank you. Thank you so much.