 Hello everyone. I would like to start by acknowledging that we respectfully acknowledge that the University of Arizona is on the land and territories of the Oldham and the Yaqui peoples who have stewarded this land since time immemorial. Hello and welcome everyone. My name is Opinahua Odruopuni and I am an assistant professor with the Department of German Studies here at the University of Arizona. I am happy and excited to welcome all of you to the first of our two Campus Weeks virtual events this week. The second event will be a conversation about anti-black racism in U.S. academic context. This panel discussion showcases black students from different academic contexts. We have undergraduate students, we have graduate students who have studied or currently studying abroad in Germany. We have chosen this event because there is an urgent need for discussions about anti-black racism in the context of study abroad and exchange student programs in Germany. Now I would like to introduce the moderator for today's panel, which is Cynthia Porter. Originally from Ohio, Cynthia Porter received her BA in German Studies from Dennison University, followed by earning a master's in German Studies from Bowling Green State University as well as a master's in popular culture from the same institution. Cynthia's research interests fall under the categories of cross-media studies with a focus on the depiction of the body in German canonized literature and contemporary film. The body-mind connection, the cultural connotations of body modification and tattoos in an international context, the presentation of German history and heritage in American film and Afro-German studies. Cynthia is currently completing her PhD from Vanderbilt University, where she's currently earning on a joint degree in German and comparative media analysis and practice. Her dissertation examines the history of tattooing in the wake of moments of perceived cultural rupture and transition in German 20th and 21st century history. Cynthia is now a visiting instructor of German at her alma mater, Dennison University. So please join me in welcoming Cynthia D. Porter, who will moderate today's panel. Thank you. Thank you for that introduction and welcome everyone to this panel titled Anti-Black Racism in Study Abroad, Discussions in the Context of Study Abroad in Exchange Student Programs in Germany. I'm very excited to be a participant as a moderator in this panel. I'm very excited to hear what our panelists have to share with us. To give some framework of the structure, I will be first introducing each of our panelists before transitioning into sort of a question-answer sort of dynamic where I will be posing questions that our panelists will have the opportunity to answer. This will sort of take the space of the next hour where I will be providing the main points of discussion before we are transitioning into the Q&A where the audience can interact with our panelists as well. You can feel free to submit questions in the Q&A box at any point over the course of our discussion. If you would like to speak specifically to a panelist, please be sure to name them when you are submitting your question. If it's an open question, of course, you don't have to designate anyone in particular and just leave it open. So I will start with introductions, starting with Onyx Henry. And intentionally unintentional way of life has led Onyx Henry to pursue earning a doctoral degree in German Studies at the University of Michigan, where she is now a sixth year PhD candidate. She began her graduate research on representations of blackness and post-war German children's literature. She was a lecturer at Furman University for a year, and before that, a Fulbright English teaching assistant in Germany. Onyx is passionate about bringing awareness to the long and deep connections between blackness and Germanness, as well as connecting these histories to the experiences of others in the Black Diaspora. Naturally, her work and interests intersect with anti-racist activism, which she also explores in her research. Most importantly, in her personal life, Onyx enjoys being a mom to her eight-year-old for baby Lola, baking yummy treats, and working on jigsaw puzzles. Please join me in welcoming Onyx Henry. Next, I will introduce Richmond Ebeneiwa. Richmond Ebeneiwa, excuse me, is a PhD candidate in the Transcultural German Studies Program at the University of Arizona. Originally from Kenya, Richmond attended Kenyatta University in Nairobi, where he graduated with a degree in German and History in 2016. He then earned a Master's of Arts in teaching English as a second language at West Virginia University in May of 2018. His dissertation examines language and culture models designed for arriving refugee background adults and German orientation courses. Other research interests include multilingualism, student identities and language ideologies in study abroad, black German literature, and pedagogies of multiliteracies. An average language learner and teacher himself, Richmond speaks German, English, Swahili, Luya, and a little bit of Portuguese. He has taught language classes for the University of Arizona, West Virginia University, and at colleges in Nairobi. He has also interned for the German Academic Exchange Service, commonly known as the DEA DE, and provided pedagogical support to the German School of Nairobi. Richmond lived in Germany on multiple occasions, including a year-long study abroad stay in Leipzig. His research has been supported by scholarship awards from the DEA DE, the University of Arizona German Studies Department, the Graduate and Professional Student Council, the National Center for Interpretation, as well as the University of Arizona's University Fellows Program, where he was a part of the 2018-2019 cohort. Richmond currently serves as a Graduate Teaching Associate and holds the position of Assistant Language Program Director of the German Department for the Academic Year of 2021 and 2022. Please join me in welcoming Richmond and Bewa. Our third panelist, Paisie Alfred, was awarded her bachelor's degree in French and German Studies from the University of Avedon in 2016 and her master's in German Studies and Applied Linguistics from the University of Arizona in 2020. A second-year graduate student in the Transcultural German Studies PhD program, Paisie teaches German language and culture courses, and she continues to design and develop pedagogical methods which explore symbolic facets of language communication and learning. This is an area of research which she started pursuing during her master's program, which was and continues to be influenced by challenges of representation she observes in specific areas. Her research foci and projects have been, excuse me, have had the trajectory of exploring intercultural reflection by examining how texts, specifically literature and film, dialogue and student voices can be used to explore issues of representation, identity, and mainstream narrative discourse on socio-cultural planes. Paisie is presently doing an academic year long exchange program at the University of Tsukun, where she continues to further her research and excitedly looks forward to how her research will evolve through her experiences in Cologne. Please join me in welcoming Paisie Alfred. And our final panelist is Zora Ponder-Jones, who is a fourth-year student at the Georgia Institute of Technology pursuing a degree in business administration and with a concentration in marketing and a minor in German. She'll be graduating in December. Zora's first experience in Germany was as an exchange student and a cultural ambassador through the Congress Bundestag Youth Exchange program during her gap year between high school and college. Through this program, Zora lived in three different cities in Germany, attended German high school, and lived with three different host families. She also studied abroad through Georgia Tech's Language for Business and Technology program the summer following her freshman year. In her free time, Zora enjoys creating and editing videos, playing volleyball, and watching musicals. Please join me in welcoming Zora Ponder-Jones. I would like to note that in the following questions, we acknowledge that we will be addressing anti-black racism and its intersections with gender, class, sexuality, and other identity categories. So just to open up our Q&A session to our panelists, I would like to start by posing the question, what made you decide to study German as a black person, and also as it relates to your experiences abroad, where in Germany did you go? And how did you feel beforehand as you were looking into what that experience may unfold for you in the future? So let's start with Richmond, if you feel comfortable sharing before we transition forward. Yeah, I have to say that when deciding to learn German because I started in high school before the university, I didn't really consider my blackness in all this, it was just an interesting curiosity of what learning German may be. So I just decided to go for it and I went ahead and continued learning it even at the university level. But I have to say, when my first opportunity to go to Germany came, and we had to choose where to go, I think, I consciously chose Berlin, because it was, to my mind, it was a bigger city, and I thought there would be more diversity, and I wanted my first experience to be in such a setting. And so hopefully that answers that question. Yes, thank you. How about Onyx, if you could show your experience? I'll just pick up on the end of Richmond's first. So my decision to study abroad in Berlin was intentional. I think back then, the college that I went to, Wofford College, they had, I think, two study abroad options in Germany, at least for the program that I was going to be a part of. So one was in Berlin and the other was in Freiburg, which is in the south. And so I was like, I don't know, I don't know about a small southern city, I think I'm just going to go ahead and do the big city thing, not realizing, of course, at the time that, because it's because it is an international city, even if there wasn't as much diversity as Richmond would have liked. There's a lot of English. And so I wasn't as forceful as I should have been the first time about really and truly trying to speak German with people. So I ended up coming back for a second semester. And that wasn't really by choice that was just kind of, I don't know, I think Berlin, which just kind of felt like home at that point. So I also did not think about my blackness and studying German. And in fact, German was kind of forced upon me, shall we say, and when I was in middle school, I was in the magnet program in Atlanta, and for that particular school. It wasn't like a specialty magnet school, it was just a magnet program within a school. And they made us take German, and those credits counted towards high school, so I just kept taking it in high school and then I got to college I was like, I need a language because I'll do German again and it's been following me around, you know, since seventh grade Great, thank you for sharing. Patient. Yes, so like every other person I also didn't have any life changing events where I decided I wanted to learn German, but I feel like one of my professors as an undergrad at a major influence and how I perceived Germany to be or even how I pursue the people to be. I admired her as a professor and as a human from the way she interacted with the students from our persona as a professor and all of that and so when I decided to study German, she was my go to person and I just really had my career and she was my first perception of what the German culture might be like. Now, remember, remember this is from the context of Nigeria. And yeah, so I had the before coming to Germany I had the option to choose between light switch or couldn't and I decided to go with couldn't because I checked to see what the black population in both cities were like and also interacted with one or two people These two places and I decided like I decided I couldn't was much more multicultural for me and was going to be a better fit for me to explore Germany as a first experience. So yeah. Thank you and Zora. Yes, so I started learning German in about the 10th grade I was interested in international affairs. So I was doing the Federal Service Language Academy and there I had to choose a critical language and German was the one of most interest to me. So that's where I began studying German and then with the Congress will study the exchange program. I didn't get a say in where I went I got placed with host families based on availability, but I did know that I wanted to be in a bigger city, probably somewhere in Hamburg of Berlin. And I ended up staying in Hamburg my first with my first host family actually so that ended up working out for me but that's how I came about it and I actually didn't think that much about like my blackness in relation to learning German at first either so Thank you all for sharing and providing that foundation. Our next question. And I would like to ask you how would you go about defining anti black racism, before we kind of go into some of the nitty gritty details of what we have experienced abroad. So let's start with onyx. That is one of the questions on the list that I was like, maybe somebody else to answer first. I, but I do struggle with this question because obviously like in my work on representations of blackness and children's and youth literature. I'm going to have to come up, we're not come up with but I'm going to have to, you know, explicitly say what my definition of blackness is and I know that, you know, for the most part, it is widely agreed upon in academia now that blackness is a political concept, right. And while that is true. I do think that for me at least anti black racism starts with a visual starts with a phenotypical like discrimination. I think, again, just for me personally, it has to do with the way that I look, being who I am and why you choose to, you know, yell something at me on the street or why you decide that I don't know German before I even open up my mouth. Yeah, so it starts with a look for me I guess you could even say that it starts with the sound to not be, you know, ableist I guess but yeah, that's my answer. Wonderful. How about Zora. So, to me, anti black racism presents whiteness as like the normal mode of humanness and is made visible through stigmatizing of blackness, whether that be like black hairstyles, or just culturally with like ways of being that black people exhibit or like ways that they express themselves. And then I think, like that the process of stigmatizing and from creating problems with blackness or constructing blackness as a problem. And then the creation of reliance on stigmatizing language around black hair and black body types and policing the policing of blackness as well. And it affects different aspects of life, whether that be social or economic. Wonderful. Can you share. Yeah, so for me, more broadly or yeah more broadly I think a much more shorter definition would be any type of stereotype or prejudice or attitude that this allows people of African descent into certain spaces certain activities, or even certain privileges. And I feel that can be discussed in various ways, depending on the context in which we're talking about, because when it comes to issues of representation of the type of one assets people have, I think that's also determined by the space in which they find themselves at a particular time. So, yeah. Thank you enrichment. I also want to agree that this is also one of those things that I was like I hope somebody else has a more creative way of responding to this question because anti black racism. Racism is a very, is a very complex thing to define and even to think about, but I think what I would agree what most of the panelists have said, it begins with a visual. It begins with being discriminated against because of how you look. And then continues to maybe how you sound and even how you position yourself because once it goes beyond the visual and then you start to get some sort of pushback or prejudice because you're positioning yourself. It's, it's almost as if anything blackness is not perceived as being favorable. So even if you're sort of created a rapport and gone beyond the visual aspect and then it gets into conversation and it's like, speaking about the blackness and then getting this sort of pushback of like, but, you know, especially being in German studies but like, did you like wanna, you know, do more stuff like the way it's being done elsewhere. And so that is, is our, I would see how to approach that question. So we've definitely seen like a broad range of potential ways to interpret and also experience anti black, anti black racism while abroad, ranging from just like starting interactions in some cases before words are even exchanged it might even be just something one registers and like an energetic front and transitioning or also all the way through that spectrum of micro aggressions feeling welcome or unwelcome in certain spaces. As well as having just outright examples of racist statements or or deviating conversations in a manner that are clearly supported by prejudices and stereotypes. Thank you for sharing. And you have experiences of anti black racism that you've encountered while abroad. I feel like this question has a lot to do with one's comfort in sharing. So I would like to ask our panelists, if any of you feel particularly comfortable sharing an example, if you could like their stir in some manner, that would help me. Okay, next, thank you. You're welcome Cynthia. Yeah, both of my examples, or both of my, you know, I don't know what answers were real from real experiences. The first being back in 2010, when I did my first semester abroad as an undergraduate student. And that was a really weird moment in time you know you have those kind of cuts where you have like the highlights in your life you're like, Oh, like I remember like that distinctly and I could like feel something happening in that moment but you didn't know what I was coming back from the men's room which is the cafeteria and going back to the main center of our study abroad place. And I just remember I was just like walk in and remember like the sun was out you couldn't feel it but the sun was out and that was nice. You know when in time and just remember like feeling really good and then I like looked over at this car that was coming down a main street that was right next to me and there was this guy that kind of like, this was, I guess you could call him a scrub he was in at the passenger side of his friends ride. And he like, we made eye contact with each other and I could feel like, you know he was like really looking at me. And I was actually, you know, becoming somewhat accustomed to being stared at at this point like in public. But this was this felt different and he rolled down the window and he yell the n word at me in German. And it was the first time that I had ever been called out my name like that, at all ever, and you know for to be in Germany from a white German, which is kind of like wow this is, it's everywhere. So like that was the first moment and especially because I had that was a very interesting semester to trying to explain to people that I'm American. And you know when they keep asking like where are you really from and like now I'm not from Africa, like that's so you know having to think then about my identity like as an African American I was just like oh no what I do. Am I just black now I think that's probably safest so that's where I landed there. I remember was just recently when I was in a store there were four people including myself, and one of the people who worked there. She spoke to everyone else first which is fine. She's once everyone else first there were two guys and a woman, and they she spoke to all of them in German. And she started stammering in English, and I quickly cut her off and I said I speak German to. And I just was really annoyed by that, not just because I can speak German but just thinking about like had I been a black German, how offensive that would have been you know you have no idea. And so the fact that you just assume, not based on my sex, you know, or my gender because there's another woman here another person who looks like she identifies as woman, and not because, you know, it comes down to skin. You couldn't, I couldn't really make any other distinction other than that, and that I think has a lot to do with. Like we were all saying before like the stereotypes that people make about you, based on the way that you look or based on the way that you, the position that you did your blackness is in in that moment. From our other panelists anybody feeling comfortable to share experiences of anti black racism. Richmond. So, so in, if I'm reflecting on in German context, I think I have, I have responded to these things differently. So, when I went first went to Germany was back in 2013, it was like a short, short language course summer program and I guess because I knew I only was going to be there for four weeks. How I responded to it was also different with a lot of humor because I remember, I was getting very weird questions of whether and that was also tied to where I was from so every time I said I was from Kenya then there was the questions of, do you have houses in, you have houses in Kenya and I'm like, we don't have houses we actually live on trees and, and ours is actually the biggest tree and my, my dad is like the chief of the, of the area and I can't wait to, you know, to take over so that I have the tallest you I can see everything. And I wasn't even taking offense it for some weird reason. Is this something that I almost expected I knew there's going to be people with some weird questions. And I was just like, I'm just going to respond to it in in a way that makes made sense for me at the time. And then many other examples but even the question of where you from to me wasn't a very loaded question because I was just I mean I'm from Kenya I'm here for four weeks and it's, it made a lot of sense. The first time that I was reflecting on this experiences, even more broadly was when now I went to life for a whole year. The dynamics in my life I changed. And I was coming with a partner I was coming with a child, and I couldn't respond to this thing the same way I was responding to them five years ago, where I almost didn't care and I'd say nine out of 10 times. If we met someone on the streets they would talk to my wife first in German and then I would have to say, she actually doesn't speak German and the other speaks German. And then the conversation would, would shift that with almost all the time nine out of 10 times. But, and then also on the streets I realized, sometimes you know you're walking, you're, you're walking close to some older people and you can just, you know, you can see you can see someone like holding on to, onto like the precious things and you almost want to say I mean I'm trying to rob you but then I think when that happened a few times, then I thought to myself well if someone is being uncomfortable because of my presence. Then it's, they're the ones who are suffering I mean, I'm just walking by and so if, if they're having this self inflection suffering that's really, that's really on them. But the most notable one was, I think, my landlord so I, we had gotten this, this apartment in, in Leipzig, a place called Conivit. And one day I was coming back home, and then I met this dude on the, on the staircase and, and then he asked me, where are you going. And I'm like, I'm going to the second floor. There's like second floor where, and then I explained where the second floor was and, and then he kind of like thought about it and then he said, okay. And he says I am the property owner that's why I'm asking, and I didn't think a lot about it but then once I went inside. And I was like this person signed my lease. I'm living here. And how does he suddenly not know that I, that I live here. So, those are the experiences that I can, I can take over the moment. Great, thank you. Zora, I was going to ask if you would also feel comfortable sharing any experiences being the panelists who's also experienced German high schools, be wonderful to also hear more about your specific positionality during that time. Definitely. So, I feel like, aside from the micro aggressions and a lot of times, it's a lot of things that make you double guess yourself like second guess yourself like am I the only one who experienced that feeling or am I being dramatic but sometimes it came down to like a friend of mine having to be like, hey, like why are you staying at her that hard like move your eyes or something like along the lines of that or just having my other friends experience. Even like my other American friends who are on the exchange experience, like very different types of culture shock, because they were having extremely different experiences than I was but aside from that one particular experience I can think of that also ties back to the thought of like, oh like am I, what is it just in my head what's going on. I was getting on the bus one day with one of my friends who I wrote the bus home with from school. So like the public transportation bus and you get on the front because you want to like show you your card your monthly pass. You can get on the back but you're not supposed to just look back on but you're not supposed to because you're supposed to show your card to the bus driver. So I was following directions and I was getting in trying to wait in line to get in the front and my friend. Just hops in the back like for a risk of getting accused of shots bombing, but basically, I was the last person to be able to get on and the bus driver just closed the doors on my face and then drove off and like my friend is running to the front of the bus like hey, let her in like why aren't you letting her in. There's plenty of space and she has her card like she's showing it. And the bus driver just wasn't saying any words, not giving my friend any explanation I started to walk, because he actually got stopped at a stoplight right in front of where he was trying to pull off so I was like at the door like, Hello, please let me in like I have my card. He wouldn't let me in. And my friend was like, Okay, well then let me off so but he he let her off so he ended up letting her off. He didn't end up letting me in. I was extremely confused. I did not understand like why any of that happened. She was just like yeah that's horrible like he's horrible guy and I at the moment I was just like very confused like I wasn't like processing like what was really going on. But despite me being in a completely different time zone I think it was like three in the morning in America I just called my mom and was just like I don't like what just happened. I don't necessarily understand it and I think coming from like a, I turned 18 when I was in Germany so I went when I was 17 so I was, I was younger and I was having a rough time like fully comprehending the things that were happening to me so I think that that was like one of the first times that I was like wow that was very dramatic and actually just happened and everyone around me saw it and did not understand it either. So that was one of the most, the largest experiences that I remember. Thank you for sharing and page you before we transition questions. So I am fairly new and cool. And for me, I can resonate with the stairs, because as a black person in the white space it's very easy for you to stand that has been foreign and exotic and all of that. So I get the stairs, but I have not had any experience that stood out to me as an obvious race situation I've not had that type of experience yet. But I do get the stairs and sometimes people speak in English, sometimes some refuse to start to even speak German, even when I speak German to that has happened but nothing major so far, I would say. Okay, thank you to all of our panelists for sharing. I would also like to remind our attendees please feel free to submit questions using the q amp a box as they come up. As we'll have I will be collecting them to discuss towards the end of our discussion. Next question, I did notice that there's a bit of a pattern that our panelists have brought up when experiencing examples of micro aggressions versus just like outright racism, being respond or the emotional response. Even like psychological response being like one of, of confusion of uncertainty set guessing oneself and not being able to process what's happening kind of in that moment but rather later it's almost like an aftershock like later recognizing that was not what I think it was at the time, you know, where it's like kind of this awakening moments like oh shoot, that's actually quite horrible, what I just experienced. So if you've, if any of you have experienced outright fear or fears kind of been resonated, or been conjured up through experiences of being in all white spaces, or being singled out specifically. If that's something that you've experienced in the past. Do you have anything to share I know you also expressed some examples of just outright racism being thrown at your way. Yeah, the moments where you know I would feel fear those that's still in the same vein of those moments where you just kind of like shock like oh no that just happened and you know like you said have to process it more later. I think fear actually relates to one of the questions about. How you feel how you feel in an outside spaces like in the real world. I think that's generally where I feel fear. I think, you know just in general as a woman you already are conditioned socialized, you know just kind of feel uncertain and feel safer at night more and safe at night. But as a black person, I have felt most unsafe when in areas of the city that are not really central. It's like I have some friends who use to live a little bit outside of like what most people would consider like real Berlin I guess and you know it's just very well that those areas in particular have people that are just bolder with their anti black with their racism in general. And so you know those friends would want me you know about being home, not super late. When I was looking for an apartment back in my full bright year I was warned against certain areas like that. And it was just made explicitly clear that you know that the danger for you as a black person is greater in those spaces so yeah it's times where you know there's a whole lot of it as that's the care and I can't get home. You know before the sun goes down I do walk a lot faster than I normally would to get in and yeah those moments are fearful for me. Any other contributions from our panelists experiencing fear, or I appreciated Richmond what you shared with kind of turning feelings of discomfort, kind of back or redirecting it back to the person that is kind of exhibiting discomfort but that's not my problem. Could you share more about your thoughts and feelings in those types of moments, but is redirection and what's going on in your mind conceptually of the situation. I guess, I guess for me that time is just something I almost expected it and I was, I, it's only later I mean it's not I that I went out to like use this human right in a way that makes people think about what they're saying but it is something that, you know there are more questions even like who, like what language you speak in Africa like what language you speak in Europe, and just kind of like. If you can answer that then I can answer this question. But I have to say, for me, when it comes to fear I don't think when I was by myself I almost had like an expectation I, I, I found that other people are more fearful for on my behalf than I was for myself, I know I was in Hamburg and I was living in a host family. And each time I was going out at night, I would just just the host mom would just keep reminding me to be safe and keep worrying about me and. And at that time I probably was going into unsafe areas without caring too much. What changed for me in terms of fear was just not wanting to have such or to have awful experiences with my family like I was almost fearful for them because this is something that I have known how to deal with for a long time. But anti black racism is not something particularly because my wife is not black is not something that they have had to go through and then them going through it on my behalf is something that I probably not wanted to do. And just as I think Onyx is on the shared finding out where to live before I went to live, such as like, I have a friend in live station I had to ask which areas should I definitely not look for an apartment. And that played a big role in me, like, choosing where to stay because like that side, I'm not quite sure what I want to, I want to leave it outside. As you I think you also mentioned, like emailing people or contacting people. As you were working on deciding where you wanted to live. Can you share more about your considerations and thoughts and preparation. Yeah, so, before I come into Coon, I was conscious of the fact that it is to get as much information as a black person regarding where I was going to stay, where I got accommodation, and also get people's personal access to all the black people in this spaces. So, within the short period of time that I've been in Germany, personally, I can say, I've never felt unsafe in Coon, and I've asked the other Africans to if they felt unsafe in Coon and the answer was always no. No matter what time of the day it is, which is really surprising. You would get the stairs but in my opinion I would say I would describe the citizens of Coon as being conservative, but at the same time very helpful. So maybe that plays a role in how they also receive and interact with black people in this spaces. I have the opportunity of living in a place that is very multicultural. So I'm not the only black person here. And I don't think I wouldn't sing it out for anything. So so far so good in some of my experience has been really okay. It's definitely good to hear. We definitely wouldn't want the alternative. I would like to, for first, thank you to folks that have been submitting Q&A questions, so please ask questions arise, arrive to your minds, please be sure to transfer them or be sure to communicate them for us in the future. I would like to ask a lot of our participants have been speaking on experiences that have been out in what we call the real world, just out in the public sphere. I'm wondering if any of you have experienced examples of racism or microaggressions, microaggressions specifically in like academic spaces, in university or in high school or in German high school systems. I'm wondering if you have experienced anything outside of that public sphere and different sort of academic setting and how that may have changed the tone of some of the experiences that you've had. I want to say thankfully, like, Peshu, I think, I don't want to say your name mom. Okay, yeah. No, the answer is no, not yet. Anyone else. I do remember in my second host family when I changed high schools all three times that I changed host families. So I was newer to this school. And on the first day of like, I think it was either English or history class something that comes with this I have a lot of little pieces that I've forgotten. But it was like the first day of class and I think we were watching like for either an English class or a history class, it was like a Django or like a 12 years a slave type of movie. And I was just very uncomfortable. And I was just like, confused as to why that was what we were watching. And then like going through like the like African American history form of like that that part of education was very interesting to me because I had a lot of thoughts on it but I also was it was the beginning of my German language journey so I was also like, am I misunderstanding what is going on, because it was a lot of it was to me, missing the part of like colonialism as a whole and just going into this is what happened in America with slavery. Not. This is why all of this happened because it's a bigger picture. And I just like the manner that it was taught to me as an American I was very, I had a lot of thoughts and I didn't have the words to say them in German at the time. I still don't know if I would have them, but just trying to get through to the point of the German side of things and like how they like they played a role in that as well. And like it depends on my school because my first school did a great job I feel like they really went through like a lot of the different parts of like slavery and I feel like the second school I'm not sure that maybe because I just got there in the middle of the semester but I walked in at a time where I felt like that was not being taught very well and also I'm the black student who just got there so everybody's looking at me like do you have anything to say, and I just did not want to speak on it at all. So I can, yes. So I can figure back on what sir I just said I have a similar experience but much more positive light so one of the seminars I currently take is called identity to the answer this can be wrong. And some of the text we're walking me to that text or like I'm in the garments of inauguration program at Joe Biden's inauguration and emmy says there's work so we had going into all of this deep discuss about blackness and representation and racism and all of that so on the first class. I am the only black person. And I was so grateful. Grateful because the professor even though he's a white male was conscious enough of this to keep on retake reiterating at the before class that these are certain types of what we wouldn't use in this class. And this is the way conversations about these things she brought in this class. It did that on the first day. It did that on the second day. And I felt it was just so respectful so that to kind of like sets the base for everything that was everything that played out in the seminars in the seminar that in the classes we took in that seminar so far. So in that sense I would say this has been for me a very positive experience on how even the professors can set the turn of things in class and how that can help call some of this discussions, disrespectful comments about racism and classroom. Thank you that actually really perfectly to what my next question was going to be that has that has to do with whether or not you've felt protected and or experiencing examples of having community members either their friends and host family members versus just some strangers. It's like, when you've experienced examples of micro aggressions to have that support so other witnesses to it, and feeling like you're supported and your surroundings when certain at a micro aggressions or of racist statements or gestures or what have arisen. So you've mentioned an example page as well Richmond you mentioned that you've had family or you're concerned about your family's experience, when they are witnessing example and or their concerns of potentially examples of racism in preparation of, I guess, engaging in the pop in the public sphere. On next you have anything that you'd like to communicate in terms of feeling examples of solidarity and or do you, would any of you have suggestions or communities that you have reached out to specifically for support while you were abroad. Yeah, so definitely. Thankfully, I, I would say that mainly the groups that have been supportive have been like the, the coordinators like the program managers of like to study abroad programs they've been friends that I've met through like tandem language partner websites and whatnot and also the teachers that I've worked with your full bright. I would say that, you know, people that I complete strangers have also been, you know, kind of sources of emotional support in these moments as well like, I was just remembering my incident where somebody, you know, called me out my name, but that was a situation where like it was a rush hour in the morning and I was going down the stairs with everyone to the train. And there's this one drunk guy that's going against traffic and you know bumping into people because he's, I mean we're in the way but he's in the way as well. And but I was the person that he decided to let it call out of my name and I, you know, again it's one of those moments was like did I just hear what I think I heard but knowing that there was a person, at least one or two other people around me who, you know, even in their busy moment of trying to get to the trains, like I heard them say like oh I'm sorry he said that like that lets me know that I'm not crazy, you know, because I do think that all of these moments kind of come with the second guessing. It's a part of the, it's a part of the system like it's designed to make you feel crazy, right, but you know having those people even very briefly acknowledged that that happened, make me feel better, I guess in a way more supported less crazy. But then, you know, when you tell it to other people that you know, like your host family or the teachers that you work with. There's nothing that they can do necessarily I mean I know there's a law now against discrimination but what do you know, I don't know how that even works, but just having people you know acknowledge that it is something that happens and not try to dismiss it I think is helpful because I have had you know a couple of incidents where maybe another, you know, a non black person of color will say like well I don't think it meant this it probably meant that that's not really helpful and you weren't there so you don't know I think just kind of letting somebody have what they think was that moment even if you're not sure is it is doing something. At least it's not doing harm. So, any from our other panelists have there been any communities that you've felt specifically supported you whenever you felt oppressed. Yes, I would say when I lived in Hamburg I had a good I had a very good community of friends. What I noticed is like the minorities kind of flock to each other. So, like, whether that be, they noticed something happened like you mentioned on exhibit like that's incorrect like in like a I saw that happen, and you're not alone in seeing whatever just occurred, or like even just acknowledgement like why wouldn't you do that to me, like for someone like some of my white friends who are like why wouldn't you do that to me or something like along those lines. I think something also like having Afro German friends was a very helpful experience because even though they've lived their their whole lives, they speak German fluently they're still hearing people like say the same, have the same expectation about German skills or things like that and it's just like having people to have shared experiences with you and I think one suggestion for programs I would say is when I came into my year long program it was I they paired us with like a mentor or like not necessarily someone to reach out to if you needed anything and I think having people of different backgrounds to be those people you can reach out to is very helpful, because just having someone who can can relate to you or something like that. I've been in those spheres and I also think a large part of my exchange that it was a focus on for my year long exchange it was there was a focus on like assimilation and just becoming one of this group here. And that was something that I was consistently pushing against I was like but I don't want to I'm bringing like myself here and I'm here to learn about you all as well. And like we can't really learn we can exchange, but like I don't want to like become like, so I think that was a very a thing that I was struggling with because everyone my other friends were like oh yeah. I'm like right here with everybody else I'm doing everything they're doing and I was like, even if I were to completely assembly I would not be exactly the same so I think bringing my experiences and being able to share that and like receive but and in an exchange rather than a I need to become exactly what it is to be German or something like that I think seeing the value in that as well out of programs would be very helpful. Again, wonderful in terms of segue. So Azora is talking about ways, basically that programs and or administration could help provide support and to touch on on this point. Support can be as it sounds almost over simplistic, but take the form of feeling seen and hard. And a lot of the examples of support that has been shared by a panelist has been through the friends and family and or strangers on the street. And if you have other examples, in addition to Zora's example of having administrators or program directors. Also, I guess, having a relationship with you to feel supported. And if not, do you have any other words of recommendation. Richmond. I think one of the biggest things that have been helpful for me personally have just been creating spaces for for us to feel like we, we can reflect on what has happened. I think because as we're talking most of these things is not things that we even know what it is that is going on is you only need to reflect on it and think about what happened for you to actually realize that okay maybe those were racialized that I had. And so I think just creating spaces where students can feel like they they're expressing these feelings. And then just having people who are listening I, I know for sure I have been talking to so many people about this this this experiences and I'm just happy that there are many people who are willing to listen and tell my crazy stories sometimes exaggerated sometimes just me expressing what I think happened. But also people who I feel have had the same experience. Because if another person asked me, you know, how is your experience in in in Germany, for example, and like, I know pages before coming was asking me, you know, how, how is, how is your experience, and just having conversations with people with people who you think understand that type of experience that is meaning other black people is something that is helpful because then you actually feel like it's a conversation and not just like, you're talking and people are listening but it's also like, all this happened to me too and then you just cannot keep talking about this thing so just those sort of communities have something very helpful for me. Yeah, I was, I was just going to have that talking about administrative support. The team will walk with you at the university could have been so wonderful and I'm beginning to sound like the only person here that is so positive and I'm not going to say sorry for that. I'm just grateful that I have a very good experience I've had a very good experience so far. So I feel so far they feel that they are responsible for me to be comfortable. And I say this because like, I always have they always check upon me to know if there's anything going on. Have you done this already, do you have any problem with me this specific cost enrollment with a specific person, even to such little things as some of the cultural differences on how a professor perceive an email and I think that helps a lot. Supported me in a way that might not really that that might not be so obvious but it's also still very useful. So aside from that mistreated Tim I also tend to in any new space I find myself I also have people of my own community so the first thing I do is to find people of Nigerian descent and every, every space I find myself then also find people of African community because I feel two people stories and personal experiences you can learn a lot, perceive a lot and know how to navigate things that you are yet to experience. So these two support system have been very helpful in navigating my experience in poem so far. Wonderful. I mean it's great to have experiences that are positive, definitely. And with that, we're going to transition into our Q&A that's open to our audience members as well. Our first question being, and this is open to any of our panelists who feel comfortable and inspired to answer. Do you think that your home institutions or German teachers or professors could have prepared you better for some of the negative experiences that before you had embarked on your time abroad. What about the preparatory side of things, do you think you could have been better supported. And if so how I would like to answer, but I would also like to ask you if your dog is still in the room Cynthia, and what your puppies name is. His name is Larson and he is decided to take over the couch. So, I think the answer that I have is, yes, they could have better prepared me. That's not to say that I have, you know, some kind of bad preparation I just had no preparation so. You know, my memory is this valuable, but I just don't remember having ever talked about Afro German, anything before I got to Berlin and I think it was. So the program, the study abroad program that I was in had classes, you know, for us so you didn't have to take a class like at Humboldt or at the University here. You could I think like if your German was good enough mine was not at the time so I was taking all back classes kind of like with instructors that you know we're trained to work with us. So, one of those classes I think was something about like, like minorities in Germany. I think my first introduction into Afro Germans and as a subject as a German studies subject, and I just was kind of surprised even at that moment to wonder like why haven't I even thought about this like it hasn't been introduced to me that's why I haven't thought about it. I do think that the having had any kinds of background on, you know, German colonialism, which then would have, of course, had, you know, led to a discussion on anti black racism in Germany. I think that would have probably been nice to even just have the idea that that's something that even happens here because we speak about black Germans and blackness just in Germany so little that you know after my first of my first years abroad here. I think the number one question that I got from people at home was, are there any black people in Germany. And, you know, for us the answer is of course like we're everywhere like black people are everywhere but if you don't talk about it then you don't think about it is usually how that goes. Great. Anybody else in our panelists like to share Oh please go ahead Sarah. Oh, I was going to say that I think that in terms of course work. Like, I think there was a great job at Georgia Tech, like, but the courses I took the things I learned but I did study abroad before. So I had a little bit of like background, but then like moving into the study abroad like I feel like within like the staff who were with me and like my professors I did feel like I can go to them if I have any issue. I think that when it comes to preparing beforehand. There could, it could be discussed how my experience might be different than another person's experience and I think that could be done with maybe alumni who have also done a study abroad program similar to who may have shared experiences that I have also shared that I think that coming from like coursework and things like that learning overall about like I've had a class where I talked a lot about Afro German music and having the background about that and like having to learn about like a background in my Georgia Tech knowledge, but before that, not necessarily. And I think that like outside of like the school and the like background, maybe when it comes to like the personal life because another part of studying abroad is going to meet people and going out to eat and going out to dinners and like having those experiences as well so maybe having someone who is also black who has had that experience and gone on that study abroad because I know there are people because now I'm one who would love to go back to and maybe like talk about that experience have a little bit of what to prepare for because I didn't really have that as much. Thank you very much and Richmond go ahead. Yeah, in terms of support I mean for me I don't even think my. I would have been successful worry not for my department like I received unlimited support from my department of German studies at the University of Arizona. The bigger question was the study abroad itself as an institution within the university. That's where I felt like those spaces within study abroad is at the institutional level or not prepared for other types of study abroad students, because I like for Americans. For example, doing study abroad in Germany just thinking about accommodation other thing, whereas for someone like me who is from Kenya, as a Kenyan national I have to think about other things like, like how am I getting a visa to go to Germany. First of all, and how do I prove that I will be able to sustain myself because that's also something that is needed at the embassy or is it at the immigration offices there. So, I felt like this study abroad office could have anticipated better for students who are not necessarily Americans for example. But I think providing this spaces where we're talking about these things is is very helpful because then, like from my experiences I'm hoping that pages experience was a little different because of what I'm saying or what we're talking about today and the person to study abroad next year, the experiences will be also different because of this kind of conversation so I just think providing these spaces where we're talking about all these things have been very helpful. Thank you. I can, I would say I've gotten a lot of support from the faculty at the rest of Arizona so an incident that stood out to me and this was while I was in the United States when I went for my visa interview I was requested to bring additional documents, which my colleague had gone ahead of me and who isn't black wasn't requested to bring and so I told the faculty about this and what they did was to, you know, contact the embassy and say this other person already got it turned in the same documents we don't understand the problem is on your colleague I've done this, please address this immediately. And interesting thing that happened after that was that I got my visa, even before my colleague who had gone for the interview got it so this is an example of how the support system can really help make life easier. And for my experience in current so far like I said the administrative team have been very very supportive, extremely supportive here I, I have nothing to complain about really. Thank you thank you for all of your responses I do know that and also, we've gotten quite a few words of appreciation and in thanks from our attendees here on the call. So that we've had a couple of our participants on the side of the administrators, very interested in this question so thank you very much for your answers. Transitioning to our next question from our attendees. Somebody asks or one of our attendees asks, I'd be grateful if the participants could comment on what they bring to Germany as black people from the United States, Nigeria and Kenya. Let me add to the discussion about the public good. And also, why do they keep going back. Who would like to start. Thank you. I can talk about how I bring more to this question in some of the spaces so the seminar I'm taking that's tied to the identity and entire discrimination in. So, I've noticed that the conversation tends to be around much more Western canons. And what I bring to some of this discussion is to also talk about African canons and talk about types of literature that I am used to that they might not be used to just kind of like and have this cross cultural conversations on. Okay, this is this perspective, this is this other perspective, where's the common ground here what is missing here what is interesting here. And how can we dialogue more about all of these things so I think my personal experience and my personal scholarly interest and even research interest brings a lot to the table in some of the spaces where some of the things I'm interested in or some of the books I'm used to my not really have been what people here would have. I used to reading or even talking about. I would say, similar to the issue that I think what I'm bringing in terms of my research like directly is a greater awareness of anti black racism in German culture because I do think that much like Zora said when she was visiting the class and they you know it just felt like we're just going to look at the US over here like that still happens a lot when it comes to racism, anti black racism. In general, like within literature anywhere right so I want to point out like look guys there's a history of it in German children's and youth literature as well. But I think in a less kind of direct way what I'm hoping to bring to the conversation is less of my voice and less of like you said less of like the US canon and to try to look for more black German voices and black voices in German it's uplift because they're definitely here. And you know, I think that we are all very aware of how angle centered the research tends to be and so I really kind of want to try to dive into those communities so that it's not so much of what I'm bringing and why do I keep coming back here. If you've never been to Berlin like then, that's why you don't know I don't know it just keeps drawing me back in. Yeah. I agree Berlin definitely has it's a lore. That's for sure. Anybody else. I would say that when I went first on a cultural exchange and also like on a faculty led student program. But I think that a very large part of what I brought was myself and being able to bring myself beyond the stereotype of what a black person is and like being able to bring like the field politics guide I don't know like the more like the diversity of who I am and just showing that I'm more than like whatever the stereotype is and I feel like a lot of time just having someone in front of those shows like oh this is someone who has this interest and is outside of the box in this way it really just helps and also bringing that back to America when it comes to talking to my friends here about like what it is to be German and like how super awesome cool the windows are and things like that. Just getting to share those little things is a big part of the exchange that I really liked. And if I'm just to add on what they've already said I think for me the first thing is just being part of German studies, what German studies may look like I think just all of us participating in in this spaces already changes of oh what is German studies if I am here, I am black, I have experienced anti black racism, but I also love German studies. It's like it's a complexity that I do not have to simplify. There's a good side that I've experienced there's some bad side that I've experienced, because I found that many people position themselves as black feel the needs to only talk about the good stuff. Someone asked, how was, how was the experience in Germany, I have friends who then want to talk about, oh, that's like, only experience good things and for me it was important. It's been important to just also say, I mean it's more complex than that they're good stuff, like a someone who loves languages I like the very long compositor words and thinking about those or there's some cool grammatical stuff but at the same time, the all these things that I'm particularly excited about that I'm willing to share and so just kind of presenting this whole complexity, and I think this sort of taking a reflexive point is important. Because then we bring very cool and interesting conversations into the Germans that is, and I know personally there was a point where I was coming across the colonel and post colonel theory and I was kind of like thinking. That is my role in, in this the colonial movement, and then whose language of my learning, but also saying, I'm not just learning the language of good and she was learning the language of me I am, and others and then then I, I remind myself that I'm actually where I'm supposed to be. Wonderful. Thank you very much for those contributions. I do want to read some words of thanks from one of our attendees saying thank you so much. I'm only now starting to unpack the harm that assimilationist German instruction has had on me and my undergraduate and graduate training, and I entered that space with a great deal of racial privilege. I'm grateful for the leadership you're offering us around the topic and challenge to do better by all of our students, so I want to make sure that our panel panelists also hear some of the words of thanks and praise that are being directed towards you through our attendees. I have a question. Were there Afro German host families or tandem partners available to you while you were brought. If not, would you have liked an Afro German host family or tandem partner, Zora I know that you touched on this briefly earlier in the discussion. Yes, there were, I, in my program I was not aware of any Afro German host families, I would have loved an Afro German host family. I think a lot of times. I would kind of get. I think that a lot of times people try to say they want people to go into like an authentic German experience but I feel like an Afro German experience would also be an authentic German experience. So, I would love to see that. Any words from other panelists on the subject. I didn't have any Afro German host people did not. I don't know if they were even options because we were placed with our host people. I will say though that my second host situation was so much different than the first because the first time. I think that has something to do with knowing who you are outside of your blackness just how your energy works right because I went into my first situation, requesting that a family that wanted a lot of interaction. And then I went abroad for the first time and realized that I was getting plenty enough interaction with German in the German world outside of the home, and then when I came home I did not want to talk to anyone. I think an Afro German house would have been great but I probably would have been wasted on me. I think an Afro German language partner though would have been dope and I had not seen any that were, you know, available on the website when I was here so long ago that has probably changed and I think also just with their being you know more awareness of blackness and they're being like each one teach one this Afro German or so the black German like community based library such research place here that that you know it's easier to find black people I think is what I'm trying to say but yeah the host family would have been wasted on me. Richmond or Paju anything to share or are you ready to transition. Yeah, I don't think I was looking for a host family. Just because I, I have gone through host families before and just what Alex was saying. If the program is very vibrant and very involving by the time you get back home you just almost don't want to talk about stuff you just, you just want to you know crash and just continue the next day and if you have very excited well meaning host, host parents then you know they also wanting to how your day was and how you they can better support you in doing things and all you just want to do is just go to your room and not not do much. But I mean, when I was in life. I met some other Kenyans there. And I have to say that was pretty cool stuff to know like just having that moment where I'm just like, I'm in Germany in geographically but then I can just carve out some time and we can just talk about, you know stuff about from home and all those things that was cool. Yeah, so for me I wasn't looking for any host family because I was of the opinion that then if I don't have a good experience with them I'll be stuck with them for months and I didn't want that to happen. I was much more willing to explore personal interactions with people on a daily basis and just see how that goes so I wasn't looking for host family and I didn't even think that there might be and I've not heard of any after German host family so far. Thank you very much. Our following question is a bit specific. I would like to ask. Well first they mentioned I was curious what experiences you've had with questions or comments about black hair in Germany. It's a little bit more specific, but any of you, anything to share any experiences to share. Well, I am, I change my hair extremely often. So I had black and white hair I had red hair have blonde hair sometimes and I have brown hair sometimes. So, though I was in an experience where I was already pretty different I also have a birthmark right here so I was like well let's just keep it going with my hair. So I think I welcomed a lot of questions I had a lot of questions. It was also trying to find somewhere to do my hair was pretty difficult but usually it wasn't like I could ask my host family per se but just require a lot of research but I think that the only negative experiences I've really had is like people like sharing their opinion when like maybe I'm having a bad hair day. I really don't really want to hear what you think about it. And then if I like if it's like oh I had red hair last time and they're like the black and white like my host grandma would say like that's just too much, or something like that but I feel like that's something that I could also get in America yeah that's something that I was a little bit accustomed to. I luckily didn't work with people who were bold enough to say anything about my hair they might have wanted to at points. I don't know, but I do. I mean, like we said earlier, you know in regards to the staring, you know there's a lot of that. Because I used to have a big fro as you could see on the poster but yeah back then more stairs but you know those are more of like, well that's interesting but you know as a black person who that's completely normal for you to look at every single day you just wish that people would just leave you alone. But actually you know but also on the flip side I guess kind of I had always felt back then really comfortable with my hair looking like whatever some days. Just because you know I just feel like there's a lot less somehow there's a lot less pressure being maybe it's specifically in Berlin where even though you get people to stare at you generally people mind their business and so there's this anonymity I think that comes with being here that I really really enjoy it. And I don't have any hair so I don't think about that. Okay, I think I have to answer the question seem that Richmond doesn't have any hair to talk about. But for me I tend to switch my a lot I, I tend to have different books at different times but like I said, people in Kern my personal opinion is that they are very conservative but the same time very friendly so I've not had anyone make a comment about my hair so far so I've not had any special experience about the air talk in Germany. Richmond I don't want to deny you the opportunity if you have. Well I've only had one experience with a head probably back in 2013 where someone asked where they could touch my hair. Yeah sure touch it, and you know I thought I thought I mean I didn't think to it was those moments where we didn't care about much but in hindsight I wouldn't let someone touch my hair right now, just because of what I know right now. But other than that I don't think I've had any other experience with someone directly asking to touch my hair, or me feeling like someone was wanted, looking at my head in a type of way. Go ahead. Yeah, I that actually reminds me I did have that experience I was in school and my hair was out like natural, and one of my friends was like oh it's fluffy today can I touch it. And I was like okay, but then my other friend was like you can't just do that you have to, like you should not touch your hair so I think it's definitely like a learning and also whatever people are comfortable with because I think some people are just like sure that's fine and some people are like no do not do that. So as long as it's like a conversation because everybody's different some people are really just like I don't mind and some people do mind. So, I think it's and it's also something that my friend was like aware like maybe you shouldn't just do that. So, I think it's a learning process and requires like communication between specific like individuals. And it's a great point, largely depending on on context largely depending on who you're interacting with my own experiences. The only person who I recall asking to touch my hair was my host mother. And even that there was a few months after spending, you know, me living in their home that she felt comfortable to do so. So, to your points or like having an established relationship definitely helps, because I don't think a lot of people like the experience of having strangers you know touching your person. So as long as we have a general understanding that that is that tends to be something that people traditionally don't enjoy and shouldn't you know respect people's bodies. Great transitioning forward. Our question is, do you have any advice or tips for future black students who want to go to Germany. Any tips words of advice. That's just the one word just go. Go. I think that you know the only other thing to say is to for whatever reason you're going like just keep that I guess at the forefront of your mind. Because you know there's going to be moments of struggle in many different kinds of ways right so finding your tribe I think we've all said some kind of iteration of that just making sure that you have you know whether it's your language partner or the administrators or somebody back home that you can call in the middle of the night because trust me my mama too will always yes pick up a mom. I think she's here. Find your tribe, you know domestically internationally to make sure that you have somebody to turn to because it's going to be struggles. It's not necessarily but for most of us there tends to be something. Just culture shock alone. Right. They're definitely more universal experiences of struggle for sure that may be less racially related in it, but to your point on it there may also be other situations that are more really oriented to have a support system is very wonderful. Pasia did you have something to share as well. Yeah I was going to say the same same thing just find a community of people that resonates with you. And a lot of them because I feel. The color of your skin can give you very specific experiences so if you find a group of people that can relate to what you're saying then it's easier to have conversations with them about some of these things. But like we've also said also having the administrative support for the exchange program. I'm going to talk a little bit about what the city is like, whether it's a city that's welcoming to black people or not, or even what has been the experience of previous students went for the program. I asked which one about his experience and my position and I decided to opt for a colon because from the conversations I had I felt like it was a better fit for me so. And it's been okay so far. I just have conversations because I, I know things that generally work for me even what was working for me five years ago definitely did not work for me now. So I just guess having conversations with other black people who have had two different experiences and then you just decide just to be aware, because ultimately you're going to decide how we'll want to be responding to things. But I guess just being aware that other people have gone through similar things so that you're not spending a lot of time wondering whether that was what that was, which is often the case. Then it just kind of create some sense of community where you don't feel like you're going through all these things for yourself. I would also echo those sentiments. I think that having a support system really helped me having I had a support system in three different places so having different types of support systems for different situations like my mother was definitely there back home but then also having people in Germany who understand that a different like aspect of that experience then also having people who look like me, who also have that understanding of the experience so different types of support systems because we're having a, there's a lot of different aspects of what we're doing by studying abroad so there's lots of different parts of you that you would like to be understood. So having a large group of people who can help you out with that. I would also say a really big thing is because I was young and so for anybody younger, going in like do not let yourself be silenced for the sake of others. I think because I just wanted to be like under like I didn't want to cause a problem I didn't want to like be pointed out too much. So I would often let things go that I probably shouldn't have or I could have spoken up for myself. I would have been very valid to do so but it might have shaken people up or cause if you like caused a discussion that I didn't want to have so I would just say like, don't be afraid to like be confident and stand and whatever you believe in and like, don't let yourself be silenced or made small by others. Thank you to all of our panelists as a closing comment from one of our attendees, I would like to share that one of our attendees states. I'm so glad to know that there are other black people like me who can relate to similar experiences I had while studying and living in Austria. Thank you so much for this event. It makes me know that I am not crazy and other black people have had similar experiences. So just communicating that events like this. Assisting and shedding light on what you know our lived experiences are as people identifying as black also through people of color generally speaking abroad, and I would like to thank again our panelists and I also like to thank all of our attendees that have submitted questions and comments and words of appreciation and thanks for our panelists, and I would like to transition to Drs McGregor and Odru O'Pooley, who are our organizers and thank you again. Yes, thank you so so much to the panel and Cynthia our moderator amazing amazing discussion today we're so thrilled that we had each one of you join us for the super important event. Thank you so much also to all of the attendees who've been here. I'm asking questions we know there were so many questions and we tried to, you know, bring them together because of obviously some overlap and time constraints but we thank you so much for your engagement with this very important discussion. And remind also our attendees that we have the final event in our series on anti black races experiences with anti black racism in German studies, and in academia, broadly conceived, tomorrow on specifically anti black experiences and experiences with anti black racism in the US academic context we will be hosting two scholars from the University of Arizona Dr Stephanie Troutman Robbins, and Dr Gloria J Wilson and we're very excited about that conversation that will take place tomorrow at one o'clock Pacific or Arizona time as we are currently aligned with Pacific time that's 4pm Eastern, the same registration document that you used for this panel can be used to get the zoom link for that if you would like to join us we would be delighted to have you. Thank you so much for coming into the Campus Week sponsorship and the Department of German Studies for sponsoring this extremely timely event. We're just so thrilled to have had it and again thank you so much to the panelists and the attendees from both my colleague and I we wish you a happy and stay in touch. Thank you.