 Welcome, Analoja. I'm Mark Shklav, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we are going across the sea to Pennsylvania and New York to talk with three extremely experienced and knowledgeable international lawyers. Dennis Unkovic is a partner with the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania law firm of Meyer, Unkovic and Scott. Neil Beaton is a partner with the New York law firm of Holland and Knight. Rory Ratting is a partner with the New York law firm of Mario Kapuchin Woods. Among many other professional activities, Dennis has recently written a book about the global supply chain which has sold out. Neil has done many cross-border transactions and Rory is an accomplished first chair intellectual property trial lawyer. As we near the end of 2021, I wanted to talk with these three wise men about, among other things, navigating into the new year and what can be done to make 2022 better. Welcome gentlemen. It's good to see you all. How are you? How are you doing? How's everything with you? Everything good here, Mark. Thank you very much. Good. I want to start with kind of a basic question. In a few words, please. Each of you describe your professional life as an international lawyer will go in alphabetical order by first name. So Dennis, please begin. Mark, thanks for having me. I started out my career working as chief counsel of the Senate minority leader in Washington DC during something called Watergate. You've never heard of it, but it happened in the 70s. And I worked for Hugh Scott. After that I went into private practice of law. For years I did basically outbound investment of US companies overseas, but now I've seen a lot of it coming back in. So I'm a corporate lawyer. Okay, Neil. I would also describe myself as a corporate lawyer. My career has been much more involved with doing inbound work, representing non-US clients doing deals here or worldwide types of deals. I never thought of myself as an international lawyer. I'm a deal lawyer, a corporate counselor, whose practice mainly involves representing non-US clients. And the distinction there is more cultural than legal. Certainly there is a veneer of additional legal issues that's involved when you have a non-US party to a deal. But the big difference is cultural, coming from a different knowledge base, coming from different expectations, and knowing how to roll with that. Okay, Rory? Yes, well, I was a chemist for several years, both an environmental chemist in the 70s when that was in vogue like it is now, and also a pharmaceutical chemist. And so I became a patent attorney. And I have to tell you it's been one of the best choices I think I've made, the only choice I've made, I guess, and become and broaden that out into everything, all technologies and everything else. And it was interesting to grow up in the era of software when that was developing and also the era of tech. I've lived through what's been going on now and the fruits of that we're seeing now. But in terms of an international lawyer, I guess I would say I'm not a corporate lawyer, but I represent corporate interests from the intellectual property and technology standpoint. And in my professional life has been actually exhilarating as an international IP lawyer. I've learned and worked with different cultures has been mentioned. And I found that the most interesting thing is most people about the same around the world everyone's pretty much the same I'll put their pants on the same way everyone's pretty much the same. But the thing that I really find rewarding is an international lawyer is that I deal with very, very creative people from the CEO chairman of the board to the scientist and so fascinating. And to do it internationally adds another dimension that is just, just delightful. You know, all of your answers are show your individualism, and it's really interesting to hear how you each see your practice and international law. I'll go on to kind of some general questions and then in a minute or two we'll talk about some specific things about your, your, your, your own practices but first, you know, what does 2022 look like for international lawyers and the international law practice. Where are we going after a couple years of this COVID pandemic and I'd like to get your thoughts based on your experience. So please, let's go go through that question also Dennis, what are your, what are your feelings about the outlook for 2022 for international law and international law practice. I think on something that Neil said just a minute ago, a lot of mine is in an outbound or an investment. What I've seen happening starting at as, as, as recently as 10 years ago, is it's becoming increasingly difficult to invest in another country, we have some ideas here that committee for foreign investment in the United States, but now the Chinese have something very similar the British have something coming in in January of 2022, and really around the world. So what I see is the open trade regimen that we've had going on over the last 40 to 50 years under the WTO and on, I think is changing significantly. I think the ability for companies to go wherever they want and buy whatever investments they would like, and I do work for two very large Japanese companies Neil is going to become more difficult that's number one. The second thing is I think the global supply chain is going to continue to get worse it's transforming itself, and that's going to affect companies all over the globe. Okay. Yeah. My experience is very similar we had a deal that was that cratered because of Sypheus about about three years ago, and was a true international transaction it was a Chinese company buying an Italian company from a Japanese company, but about third of the Italian company's operations were in the US and, and therefore needed Sypheus approval and years earlier, it would have been a would have been a rubber stamp, but it got caught up in the politics. Roy. Yeah, I mean I've done deals as well in the past but looking, looking forward to 2022. I think, particularly the litigation area is going to be very, very international litigation slash arbitration area, be very, very big, particularly with the breakdown of globalization and the supply chain. You're going to be there to be a lot more disputes going on international disputes, not only between governments between parties, you know, the deals that Neil and Dennis have been talking about. And also I think that even the regimen that's been predominant, you know, from trips, basically to try to get a more uniform worldwide IP order. I think it's going to start falling apart a little bit in terms of actually acquiring intellectual property around the world. It's going to be much more difficult I think you're going to see more barriers sent up. And then I mentioned litigation around the world, even in China, I mean China, recently there was a case where they're trying to use Chinese law to stop a deal going on in the United States. But it was, you know, in China, not in the US so it was, it's been a very interesting ride and I think, particularly if we do have a recession which God forbid I hope you don't. I think you'll see litigation go through the roof. Whoa. Well, all of you have distinct views about different aspects and I want to dive into that a little bit more. A little more detail from each of you on kind of the issues that you raise now Dennis, but what is behind this worldwide trend to make foreign direct investment more difficult I mean from the US to China to the EU. Why and where is it going. It's very critical of the United States for a moment, I think for 30 years we were had our companies were run by accounting accountants or financial people, and they said, what's the EBITDA, what's, you know, what's my best EBITDA I want to get this and so if you eliminate inventory. If you eliminate, you know, certain things you can save a lot of money. So a lot of America's capability and manufacturing has essentially disappeared today, 18% of the microprocessors that the US consumes are made in the United States. And so I think government's have finally figured out there are national security interests, and I'm not talking about here about protecting the steel industry, but there are things when which governments have to be more sensitive and as a result, if Toshiba wants to come in and to buy the largest, let's go back to 1988, a fair child semiconductor was the largest US manufacturer of chips back then, the Japanese wanted to come in and buy it and as a result, that was blocked, which led to excellent for you and other laws that we have now, but I see that increasing around the world, the British I think were shocked by COVID, seeing that well, we have any gloves, we have any respirators, you can go through the list. And so this is a reaction for political people in the country saying, what do I really need to make or what do I really need to really make in my country, protect myself. The result is, I'm going to make it more difficult for somebody from Japan to buy in the US Chinese. Well, we can talk about the Chinese later if you want, but I've really gone much further than that. I'll stop. What about you Rory. I mean, if I may, you hit a point that I'm interested in actually with, you know, the, the break would all call the breakdown globalization. I mean, the naivete perhaps or maybe the hope was way back when a few years 30 years ago whatever was that you know we have one one wonderful world, everyone would be copacetic with everyone else. And we would suddenly, you know, be able to have, you know, manufacturing in an area where it's lower cost and sales in an area where it's higher costs you were able to have this globalization a little bit like in the early days of pre pre US, you know, in the old, you know, the British colonial system. And it's proven that we're back to nationalism again, worldwide, and it's causing problems which is why I say the IP regime that I mentioned was an attempt to make things easier in terms of invention innovation, it's things of that sort. And I think that's going to start breaking down. Again, you're going to have going to go back, you know, 100 years 200 years whatever it might be, and even 100 years with Smith the way the, you know, the 100 years ago, you know, we were in terms of the IP systems, we used what was called well it's basically nationalistic. And, and then there was a move for universal versatility, which was an attempt to, if you, you could, you know, protect your intellectual property worldwide. And so I think we're kind of mixed up right now and going back to the, we're going back to 100 years, everything's starting all over again. Yeah. Just follow up on that. I think it's remarkable. There are such sharp political differences in the US on almost every issue, except this one. There hasn't been a single candidate in the last couple presidential election cycles, who has espoused free trade. Everyone is, is campaigning on protectionists. If I could, if I could break in one of the points about 100 years ago. I'm worried about the tariff situation because that's what really created, you know, the war war is basically, you know, the tariffs and these I believe it is maybe Dennis is different you know, but I think that that is very dangerous. Because once you put up the boundaries between countries, it's very easy for one country to want more, and then to start warring with the other side. Right. And did you hear the tariffs discussed in the presidential campaign last year. Yeah. No, it wasn't an issue. Yeah, that's in a way that's frightening isn't it. Different as Trump and Biden are. I predicted four years from now that the Biden administration on trade will be very similar to what we ended up with under Trump now whether it's good or bad we can debate. But they really are on a plane if you agree Neil. I totally agree. I do too. And you'll not neither Biden or Trump would agree with that, but but they are. Yeah. Well, well, I want to move on a little bit Rory, you know, you know, you mentioned the intellectual property litigation I mean, are they're going to mean are there going to be trials or they're going to be how's that going to look in the future what's going to go. Well, let's let's take what's going on with has been going on during code. Most trials have been, I'd say most if not all have been zoom, a lot of zooming, a lot of Microsoft teams, a lot of web xing, all of that has been going on. And I think that you will have trials and I think. Interactions currently are done by zoom as well. And I think what's going to happen is we're going to have a hybrid in my mind where, as the courts can open up which they are now, but hopefully they can stay open. You're probably going to be able to go into court as a lawyer and go before a judge or a jury, but the witnesses will be zoomed in. And that way, and that's because during the cove it, an in house count one of my clients in this council was explaining how he actually enjoyed zooming because he didn't have to zoom around in an airplane to all the various litigations that he had to go to, and he could just tap in for 15 minutes here and there listen there see how the lawyers are doing. And so he could do it like is a litigation counselor had 200 or 250 litigation simultaneously and he could go into depositions you could do anything you need it, just by sitting in his office. And if there was a need to be in court, or very important matter, he could fly there. Okay, that's what we're going to see. We're going to be institutionalizing the hybrid. I think so. I think that's the way it will go. Yeah. Okay, well kind of want to move on a little bit from that. But you brought up travel. And mean, all of us. I mean, we traveled to we saw each other all over the world in the past. And now that's changed. Dennis I know you've you normally would travel a lot. I'm going to ask you all where we look like for travel. What does that look like in the next year. And I mean, even if it opens up. Do you want to travel. So, let's start with Dennis, where are we with international travel for three years I was the chairman of Maritas which is a legal network and I was traveling about 150 a year. Before COVID. I do not think that international travel is going to come back the way it was. I think a lot of companies are going to save money. I'm not talking about lawyers necessarily but they're going to have more meetings by teams. But I find it very difficult to negotiate maybe because I'm a bad negotiator, but you know doing it over this kind of thing. It's hard to be face to face with someone in the same room even if we're sitting 12 feet across when I'm trying to do a transaction. I think that basic isn't going to change a lot. Those people have to travel, but the volume of people that be starting all over the world and going to trade association meetings and that I see it, certainly not picking up very much in 2022 after 2022. I'm not that smart. What do you think, Neil. Sorry. Yeah, well, to start with, I think we've all done remarkably well with that without face to face meetings. I've been busy than the last two years my firm has had two of its best years ever. And I think most firms have the legal profession is doing well costs are down. The hours are still the same or is hot higher than ever. And, but particularly in doing international work. There, there, there was a lot of relationships involved. Although I mainly do inbound work, I direct a lot of work outbound. How do I direct that work. It's people I've met over the years. Now, I don't need so much to admit to this point in my career to meet new people. We know a lot of people and a lot of jurisdictions, but and so short term or even medium term, we can coast along on the basis of having met people people already. I just don't know how young lawyers are going to develop the same relationships. And, you know, when the four of us are all retired. What is the next generation going to. My successor know someone in Hawaii in Tokyo in Paris or wherever. It's, it's tough and so, you know, I think some, you know, some amount of travel and get it getting to know people is still still going to be needed. Yeah, I agree with Dennis and Neil. I think that nothing beats face to face meetings and getting to know somebody and in some occasions becoming friends with them and meeting their family and everything that you know it goes along with particularly internationally to learn about their cultures and more reason it's very helpful in your, your dealings I represented major Japanese companies for many, many, many years and got along very well with the Japanese, as well as represent Chinese companies and European but it's a cultural shock, you know, and in those years particularly and so I just find that that is it is very, very important for an international lawyer, particularly if you're going to put the name international in front of your name lawyer, you better have some international experience. I agree, I think there are some things you can do on zoom or teams or whatever it might be. You don't need to get on a plane for a 10 minute meeting, unless there's other stuff you want to accomplish in terms of meeting various if you're going to visit. The chairman of the board of a major corporation maybe you want to meet him and plus every or her and everybody else in the team. So that you can develop some rapport with them. But other than that, you know, for everyday negotiations and thinking meetings, you can certainly do it. I've done it for years on the phone. There's no difference never seeing people and we can get a little better body language feel than than over the phone clearly. I think we need a bit more. I'll tell you one quick funny story. My wife and I were married for 32 years a couple years ago and somebody came up to my wife and said, your, what's what's your secret you've been married 32 years, and my wife looked at him and said, my husband's an international lawyer has only been home. And I don't know what your relationships are, but my wife misses my travel. I have to say so does mine, but I started taking her in the last few years with me and she misses that more than Mrs me. All of you talk about relationships, and, and then, you know, Neil mentioned young lawyers to. I mean, I totally agree. I mean, relationships are so important. I couldn't be talking with the three of you, unless we had a relationship from international travel and meetings. It's just, it's, you know, I hope that I really think it's a strength to be able to do it but you know Larry fostered the Dean of the law, former Dean of the Hawaii Law School. I was wondering if zoom is the new normal and you've all kind of mentioned that a little bit I mean, is zoom the new normal I guess it is. Let me ask you, Dennis. I'm a side sighted. So, in terms of younger people as well. I'm on the board of law school and because of COVID they've had to do this remote learning and they actually opened the school this past year, and they did both. The experience with zoom and teams is 100 times better than a conference phone call. Yes, I feel. And, you know, another thing is, you know, if Mark Zuckerberg has his way will end up doing metaverse. And we'll be able to touch and feel each other and kind of the metaverse way, I guess, but I personally again I prefer face to face but I do think that we have a long way and I think internationally. There will also be a lot of use of artificial intelligence in in these meetings. And I think that in terms of meeting people. I think we may lose a little bit of a human element in some respects because the artificial intelligence may decide, you know, use use of it may decide who you should meet when you should meet him and how you should. Your clients are are okay with the way that things are working and if they made any suggestions about how better to proceed that maybe we could that you could share. In terms of meetings or in terms of just 2022. Okay, well, yes. You know, it depends. I guess it depends on the current state of the economies in the world as to how they view it if we have right now we're in a very confused or contradictory period, I think. And so there's a lot of uncertainty in general, but I think most companies are most clients I deal with, you know, are just going about their business and are looking forward to a B 2022 but are also mindful to be cautious. I guess cautious optimistic would be the way. Okay. Right and probably more optimistic two weeks ago than they are now. Well, so basically everybody. I mean it's everybody's moving forward. And I want to, it sounds like the clients are hey, let's let's keep keep marching. Let's keep moving forward let's keep going on forward which I guess is hopeful and so let me ask you directly each of you. What's happened the last two years. Is there anything that gives you personally hope or optimism for the new year. Dennis, let's I think the US and China relationship is going to get worse. I do not have optimism there and I think that's going to have a rollover effect throughout the world. On many levels and so our business is good I'm like Neil I thought we were going to go out of business and we had two good years, which is fine as lawyers but I do think the international trade balance is imbalanced and I really don't see it getting much better in 2022. Sorry to be Debbie downer. Okay. I will add an optimistic note, you know it's not as optimistic as as was a month or month or two ago, but the opening of the US to travel from from from Europe was a big, big step. I, I have European clients that just stopped considering deals deals in the US, because they couldn't come here and meet the people on the other side, they couldn't transfer their work here. And was a lot of people breathe a huge size of relief when when when the travel prohibition from the 30 something countries was lifted in November. We now have a restriction on Southern Africa. At least in terms of my clientele that that's not not particularly relevant. And, you know, I think the travel restrictions are going to be or travel restrictions or lack thereof will be a major major factor in whether the international deal making springs back springs back to normal. Okay, we're right now. I'm looking for some hope here. Yeah, I'm going to give you hope. But first I want to say, you know, the doubter that we're talking about here is we're actually back to the future, you know, we're kind of back in the 1950s to 70s period internationally. You know, with all the, you know, the tariffs and everything else that's been going on the Chinese. I mean, we're kind of backwards a little bit there but my optimism is in medical science. I have to, I have to say that, and as a former pharmaceutical chemist, and also having done many biotech deals with many, many biotech pharma companies. I think medical science had is proving itself to be premium and it's providing a lot of optimism that will get through this code thing will will get on top of it. And the remarkable thing of these vaccines, this company Moderna know they couldn't even get past a step one and they've been trying to do this for years and years and years and years and years, and they were chosen to be the ones because they could do it faster. They and find it right, they could get it done fast, and it works. So, you know, and so I think it, it's really proven out kind of the the concept it's like proof of concept for not just the technology but for medical science. That when it needs to come to the fore it's there. So there's a lot of stuff going on. And for me that's optimistic, because I think we can clear up a lot of things and if we can just get a little more internationality out of it would be better. I'm the negative guys let me say one thing about what's happening is more reshoring is going to happen in the United States, there is going to be I think the US economy will benefit, but it's not going to be so much dependent on other countries, but I think there's going to be, whether you have Biden in again or someone else that will be the good news but that's going to be the next three or four years. Thank you. I think you're right. Okay, we have a few minutes left. I'd like to give you each just a minute to close and tell us the most important aspect of your law practice as we move forward. Maybe some advice you'd give young lawyers. As we move into the new year. How do we navigate the new year. Gentlemen, Dennis let's, let's start with you what what are your thoughts. I think that younger lawyers have a challenge of being able to make contacts with older lawyers. So my advice to them would be try to find someone when I was growing up. They had mentors, you know you did a mentorship. I think if you can find someone who will listen to you and educate you, whether they're in your own firm or a well known lawyer like the other two people on the panel. That's the way to make yourself a better lawyer and improve yourself going forward. Neil. Yeah, I think Dennis hit the nail on the head there. If I already give advice to you to young lawyers would be get yourself into the office. Stop, stop working from home. Just because you can work from work remotely doesn't mean you should work remotely working remotely is fine in the short run, particularly for for young lawyer. I don't I don't know how you progress to the next step, unless you are interacting with your with your colleagues. Yeah, just a couple points. So one, I agree, you know, I'm dressed down here right this is a dress down I remember the days when you didn't dress down right but then you were given the choice and I always dress up because there was a choice I could dress down I could dress up. It didn't really matter when you're right right right right when you're an associate you want to look like a partner. But so, so similarly, I think it's with these associates today, yes, they can work from home. It's the same thing you have a choice you're given a choice. So you have the opportunity to sometimes going to work, or all the time, or work from home, but there is that choice and I think that's that's a very good thing to do for a younger lawyer to understand that there's a choice and they should accept the choice and they should, you know, they should do both really. One of the point I really wanted to make was for younger, younger lawyers. You know, I learned as a young lawyer and we had one of the best IT firms, and it was growing up and hopefully ran it. The one thing I wanted to mention was, we were taught, it wasn't about being the greatest litigator, it wasn't about being the greatest lawyer. It was about solving problems and achieving business goals that your clients had. And I think that's a message that I'd really like to make sure younger lawyers understand they need to have the tools, but their clients are business people, if they're doing business. And it's their problems, not yours. You've got to solve their problems so they can achieve their business goals. Well, gentlemen, I truly appreciate you being together with me today on this conversation. And one thing I take away that I feel very strongly about that's come up time and time again as we talk is relationships, not internationally. You know, in our daily lives. And I think all of you feel that that's what I'm, I'm taking away from this is how important relations that personal relationships are. And as we move into the next year. Let's keep that in mind and let's, I think that's a good message to send out. So gentlemen, thank you for your relationships. It's good to see you. And Aloha from Hawaii. Thank you, Mark.