 Hello. Good evening everybody. Good evening. Welcome to this cool winter afternoon and once again we are meeting in this space of La Model. In this case around this International Day of the Holocaust Remembrance which is tomorrow the 27th of January. And it also has the origin at the liberation of the Auschwitz camp. And this year within the spaces, cultural centers, municipality of Barcelona, memory, etc. Marta Mane, welcome. Director of the Bourne who is also presenting things around this thing. And now as commissioner of some exhibitions around the subject and among other things, among other conferences. And also translator of concentration literature. That's something very important. And today we are very honored to introduce three people and this year we have thought about the dialogue more than a conference and working session. And this dialogue will be around the subject of street art and artistic representation of memory. And we have a click man with us. Welcome. Good evening everybody. And thank you very much for your team for this invitation. I'm really happy, very excited to be here. Also, I've heard a lot about this place, about the space and it's very unique and I'm really glad to be here. Yeah, we should be here. You know, see the presentation is big for it. Okay, so street art and Holocaust Remembrance. I will start with a presentation of the topic and only then I will say some things about the project. And I think that that would also call for more discussion later. So let me start with a more general question. Visual art representing the Holocaust. I was there. I was there. I testify. Genocide is not art. These were the words of an 81 years old survivor of Buchenwald. And he was protesting in front of the New York, the Jewish Museum in New York, which then hosted an exhibition by the name Mirroring Evil, Nazi Imagery Recent Art. He was protesting because the work of art there were somewhat provocative, controversial. And it really raised the question that was actually there for a long time. Can art represent the unrepresentable? Can we talk about what you cannot really talk about? And if so, what are the boundaries? So as you can see, the artist, he was a young guy and in the interview he said that he doesn't know much about the Holocaust. But he photoshopped himself as one of the prisoners in Buchenwald with a can of coke and said the real thing. So you can understand why that was a bit uncomfortable for the Holocaust survivors. So if we have a question about visual art in general, what about street art? We're talking about a mode of art which was actually originated in Defiant graffiti, in guerrilla art, even vandalism. Would such art be responsible enough? Would be serious enough to present the Holocaust? Could we ask the street artist, the majority of which are still preferred to remain anonymous, to offer the work of art in this cause of remembrance of the Holocaust? And raise historical awareness. Can we ask the street artists, would they be willing to take part in what is called artivism, art and activism? And actually engage and encourage people to be engaged against any kind of manifestation of neo-Nazi anti-Semitic or anti-liberal ideology. So the answer is yes, actually big yes. When you just look, I did really a very short research. I couldn't find any kind of academic research about the topic of Holocaust and street art representation. But if you look around, I could find at least 10 artists, all of them coming from different countries. I'm talking about Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland, Austria, Croatia, even the United States. And they're also coming in a different personal background, artistic background. They are using different techniques, artistic techniques, and they are working in a different cultural context. But they all do, as I'm going to show you, an amazing work, an amazing art dedicated to memory of the Holocaust. And the first, oh, okay. And what, no, no, no, please. Yes, thank you. And if you look, if you can survey the works of art, what you can see is kind of three things that street artists are focusing. They are either responding or they are representing, documenting and representing mainly victims of the Holocaust. Or they are also reflecting. They are asking what can be done. So this kind of thing won't come back, won't be back again. And the first artist I want to show you is Ibo Omari. He's the one who is really responding to neo-Nazi graffiti in his neighborhood. He was appalled by the number of swastika graffiti. He has a graffiti shop and he's also running a youth club. So what he did, he invited his fellow artists and the youth. And they, not just, they didn't cover the swastika, they painted on it. They painted nice, positive things on the swastika. And I would like to show you, and yeah, that was what he said. It was important to spur young people into action and to encourage them to take responsibility. So they don't just ignorantly walk past such symbols of hatred. And there's now a short one minute video which I want to show you because it illustrates what they did. I just had the idea of drawing a head around it. Here it's a house, for example, and here it's a billiard ball that's running away. As you can see, it helped. There were less swastika once this project started and they did it in other cities as well. It's a really great project. Another artist who also responded to, again, swastika was Vered Droh. She's an Israeli and she took part in a festival in Zagreb. And she was walking by the street and she was also noticed a lot of swastika onwards. So she was asking her fellow artist, have you seen that? And nobody said that they saw that, they didn't see it. So she decided she will create a braille graffiti for the people who can see. And she wrote in braille, in cerebral creation braille, this text. Have you seen the swastika? I haven't seen, I think. That was what was creeping in braille. So that was one example and another one. Another street artist, in a way he was also responding. Akut was collaborating with another film artist, he was a filmmaker. And he interviewed 400 survivors and took photos of them. He created an exhibition out of it with their portrait in a really big scale, eyes glazing looking at you. And this was a traveling exhibition. It went to different places around the board. When it was in Vienna, there was vandalism. Some people, neo-Nazi or whatever, torn and kind of slashed their moly nose. So the people in Vienna decided to defend the exhibition. And Akut was very, very impressed. Akut is an American street artist. He was from Portland, if I'm not mistaken. He was very impressed. And he decided to create a mural. He chose only two people. He chose a male who was first generation. He was in the holocaust. And a woman who was second generation, traumatized by what her parents had to suffer. And if you can go, yeah. You can also see that he was also portraying at the bottom the people defending, those people from Vienna who were defending the exhibition. What you can also see is that he put on the big portrait of the survivors, quotation from the interview. There is also a QR code every time that people can learn more about them. And he also emphasized the fact that he wanted to do it in a colorful, shiny colors. So that would be the message. Not black and white, but with colors. Another artist who also kind of wanted to commemorate the memory of the victims was Iris Andrasek. Iris is a Viennese, she's Austrian street artist. And what she did was based on a research of 100 Jewish women in Kremz. Kremz is the small town in Austria. And these women, actually nobody really know anything about. They were all victims. They were deported or murdered. She decided to create carpets and dedicate each carpet to one of these women. And she stenciled this, glued the stented carpet on the pavement of Kremz. And she said that the carpets strip these women of their anonymity. If they were anonymous with me, now they are not anonymous. Connecting them to history and give them back their place, at least for a period of time. I spoke with Iris, I asked her why carpets. And she said, well, carpet for me, it's home. And that was kind of the message. She wants them to give their home again. She didn't documented what she did, but she said that it was also very interesting to hear the responses of the people that walked by when she was gluing the carpet. Not of them happy with it, but some were very moved by that. And that's one example of the carpet. Lacuna, he's one of the artists who is not identifying by his name. He has an interesting story. He's also German. In his childhood, he read a book about the Yellow Star, and he was very kind of impressed. And when he started doing graffiti and street art, he was actually focusing on this period of time, before and after the Second World War. And as you can see, one of his works in Düsseldorf, he actually copied a photo of deportation, but he changed the color of the Yellow Star into red. He said, and that's actually quite interesting, he said, I didn't want to continue working with graffiti, because graffiti needs a bit of knowledge. You need to understand the iconography or something of what is in the graffiti, and he wanted the message to be very clear. It is my intention that the image and the text are clear so that people would understand them. So for them, he needs a picture to be very, very simple and understandable. Another project by Lacuna is a commemorating memory of a child, Leni Wall, that in the place where she was living, there is an irony. It's a very sad story. Her parents sent her to Amsterdam, so she would be safe. But at the end, she was the one who caught, together with her family, aunt and murdered. She wasn't even 10 years old, and her parents survived. So what Lacuna did is painted the mural of the whole family, but she's only as a shadow. And then he painted it again, fully detailed, in the places where she lived. So this is also another work which very much connected the way that Iris is, to the place where the victim lived. So that's how she is only a silhouette, and that's Leni Wall with a white flower. And here is the project that you are all, I hope, familiar with. That was the project that was done by Eurom and by Rock, with a collaboration with students, which I find very interesting also. I'm not going to tell a lot about that, I guess you know it, but I think it's interesting also because it's kind of engaging a dialogue with other forms of art who commemorate the Holocaust, namely the Maus of Spiegelmann, and also it gives place to commemoration of Catalan fighters for freedom that maybe were not documented or got place before. And the creation is inspired by graphic novel Maus, a model referencing arts, as a way to take back the historical and collective memory. The work of two Israeli street artists, they are a couple. They are even considered as a power couple in the street art scene in Israel. What Nitsan is usually doing is she paints poems on walls, and Dede, her partner, is doing mainly Band-Aid graffiti, that's how he is recognized, with Band-Aid it's plaster or whatever you put on heels. They were invited to Lodz, to the old ghetto, Jewish ghetto of Lodz, and Nitsan painted a poem in Hebrew and in Polish, talking about longing to a place that you don't have anymore. And Dede was creating, sorry, Lodz, and the other place was Ostrov, an old Jewish synagogue in Ostrov. And Dede was doing in the same places a mural, it's an art work made of leftovers of furniture or something like that. But it's a bird. And the idea was that on one hand, yes, there are only leftovers of the furniture, but the birds are migrating birds, and for Israelis they represent spring, or not only for Israelis. So there is this mixed message in that. That's the work of Dede. And another, now we are in Italy, that's an Italian artist, a quite famous Italian artist, who is famous also by his hyper-realistic work, and he's also a very activist artist. He did two murals, all of them were part of the Holocaust Memorial Day. One is painting the portrait of Anne Frank on the train, the deportation train in Auschwitz, and the other also has like a significance in terms of place. It's in Foley, and this is a place where the fascist, the Italian fascist, murdered, I think, 400 Jews in the very last days of the war. And what he did is created this mural of their prisoner cloth. And now there are two more artists, which I would like to show you. Both are not, I mean, there is street artists, which is not only about Jewish victims, but also about homosexual victims of the Holocaust. Nils Westergaard created also in Berlin a mural, which was of Walter Degen, and Walter Degen was a homosexual, he was imprisoned and was also a victim of the Holocaust because of his homosexuality. This, okay, this, yeah, if you can see, that was the second work that was actually kind of covering or integrating with a former work by another artist. And what she did was creating a triangle of pink origami metal. And the pink triangle is what, I don't know if you know, but that every prisoner in the concentration camp had a different color of triangle to use. So Jews, homosexuals, Roma. So she created this kind of pink triangle, and the portrait of Walter Degen was created. Yeah, okay. And the last artist I want to show you here, to show with you, is Ski. He's also a street artist from New York. What he did was part of a project of Artist for Israel, and they wanted to bring the non-awareness of the righteous of the living. People who actually rescued and helped risking their own life and this guy was a Catholic priest. He saved the life of 3,000 Jews. And that was for his memory. As you can see, the style is a bit like pop art. Again, very colorful colors. Yeah. And the words of Alan Dershowitz, which I was also, by the way, in contact with, and he would be really happy to do any kind of URAL in Budapest and elsewhere. We wanted to create heroes within countries and societies and communities and say, this is what standing up to hate and fascism looks like. So, in conclusion, yes, street art can definitely represent Holocaust in a very beautiful and serious way. But I want to say even something which is even more strong. I want to say that street art may be even better, in a way, more effective than art in gallery while talking about representation of art. Why? A, because street art is very accessible. You don't have to buy a ticket to enter the museum. You don't have to plan a visit to a museum. It's there. And it's like part of our life. So it's really accessible, more accessible than art in galleries. And it's also kind of inviting people to be engaged with the act of art of painting. So if someone is painting a mural and people pass by, can actually enter in a dialogue or comment or maybe take part of it. So it's not like a work hanged in a wall in a gallery. It's something that people can see how it's done. And the other thing which I really said, I mentioned this when I showed you Lacuna, but I think it's really, really important. It's very straightforward, all these works. It's very clear. And the message is very clear. And it's important. You don't have to be art savvy or you don't have to have an education in art to understand it. And that's good because the message is really going through in a very good way. And street art can also relate directly to the place when things happened. So in a way it's more powerful, more effective. As you see, several of the works that I showed you were related to the place where the victims lived or did stuff, yeah. So, and now I'm coming to the part of the project. As Jordi said, we had this idea a year ago, perhaps even more than a year. And yeah, and we had an art place turn into a center for a Ukraine refugee. So it was not really visible to go on with this project. But since then, I was asking also the director of the Jewish Museum in Budapest, and she's very happy to collaborate. So there is actually a real possibility that we will make it, maybe not for, maybe for the next Memorial Day. So what I suggest, what is in my kind of pull of fight is, but you're more than welcome to comment and add to this, is first of all to bring together all this interesting work and also to bring to kind of discussion the role of street art in Holocaust remembrance. And there is also an idea which I like. One of my friends suggested that maybe we can screen the works on the walls of the former ghetto in Budapest. It could be really interesting to do it. It can be done every night. It can be done as one event. But it might be very impressive, I think, to do that. We can also invite, you know, work. I mean, I just told that Israel is for, so artists for Israel would be happy to come up with a mural that can be also invitation for murals and workshops. I would love to have Ibo Omari actually working with the youth people on how to change swastika into a more positive thing. Or it can be any other workshop. And of course, gallery talks, gallery tours, street art tours and whatever. So this is what I have in my ideas pool. And I'm really kind of welcoming you to first to comment and maybe come up with more ideas, different ideas. And really, thank you very much again for the invitation. And good bye. Okay, so thank you very much, Beret. It's been a pleasure listening to you. And it's also a great pleasure to see such a full room. And I think that with different motivations. And therefore, I think that now during the second part of the session, we can leave a couple of minutes. So we give the floor to the audience. It will be very convenient. I think that your talk has been very motivating. You have opened many points. It has been a pleasure to see different international artists from many different countries practicing in public spaces, artists, graffiti, and also beyond graffiti with languages, murals, interdisciplinary. And to start the dialogue, I would like to say, and this will have a very, well, she was just thanking you and saying that we're going to have a spontaneous dialogue. And therefore, I'm going to ask different questions and questions will be asked and we will speak among us. The first idea that I would like to present is this solid artist of art and Holocaust. It's like a dichotomy, conceptual dichotomy, because as Beret was saying, this complex introduction of how to introduce around something very dramatic, the idea of the Holocaust and the idea of the 20th century and the drama of World War II, et cetera, et cetera. To which point, and in fact, during the second part of the 20th century, we have been questioning, right, how to represent this historical event which is very complex, difficult, and dramatic. And therefore, to put such a solid title, Art and Holocaust, it's quite active and quite activist, the title of your presentation. So in this sense, I would like to start by asking about the strength of art. Art has many capacities, the way these capacities as a language in order to introduce things that maybe can become controversial and to reach the limits of what can be represented. And within these limits maybe to think about how to go beyond that. In this sense, we would like to bet in favor of this language, strong language of visual art, and art within the public space, in the street, in the cities, through activism or maybe other methods. And maybe to ask you a first question to the members of the round table. And the first question would be, what are the problems of working with the language which pretends the absolute freedom of language and creation with something that is so controversial, such as controlling and limiting. I hope I have explained myself, she says, how when we see censorship and self-censorship, when we see things that maybe have to be dealt in a very specific way, in all the fields of art, art reaches the limit of what we can say and we cannot say. That's politically correct society in which we live. And this is affecting something very sensible, limited from a conceptual point of view or representative and formally point of view, such as the Holocaust. I hope I have explained myself, but she would like to know your opinion about it. Yes, can you hear me? Okay. That's a big question, a very general question. I think I can respond from my point of view and how do I feel it? I think that art as such has a huge potential and it's a tremendous weapon. It has many ways and it can touch many sensible points. And I think that art can be a triggering in order for things to happen, things on the table, things that sometimes are approached from technicism and rigor from the awareness of people. And I understand that one strategy could be to push ourselves to the limits. And I think this is part of art in general to play always with these limits and test. But personally, and it's not to sabotage your question, I'm more interested in all the other artistic lines that don't look for this controversy in order to place problems on the table. But I think it's more interesting to explore. For example, art as a tool to share awareness problems, which are community problems shared by the members of community and in a way to call upon people more than, well, I don't know, I think that it's a very complex debate. And in the end, when Beret was showing us the different artists that she has reflected here, I really like and I felt very identified with, I think, Lacuna, who was speaking about images which I interpret very figurative, very representative of reality. Reproducing this reality as an element to reflect on a reality, to remember the reality and to keep it within the public space. I hope my answer is not ambiguous as the question. Well, there are no correct answers. Thank you, Rock. Beret, I don't know if you can say something. Yeah, I completely agree that this is a very, very difficult question to answer. First of all, I would like just to echo what you said, if I understood, is that art can be very, very powerful because it has this kind of immediacy, which it's unlike poetry or prose or you, and it's very clear you don't have to know a lot to understand. And also you can have your own interpretation. It's even maybe more open for that, maybe. On the other hand, I do think that artists need to be responsible in a way when they are touching. But the example that I just showed this artist who photoshopped himself, on interview, he said that, oh, he's young. He doesn't know much about the Holocaust. He was making a point without really being fully immersed or do the homework, understanding what you are doing. So, and that's crossing the limits. I don't think I think that art shouldn't be in freedom of art. It should be kept, of course. But you need to be an adult. And if you want to explore, do it. But do your homework as well to understand what you are dealing with. And maybe do it in a dialogue or in a kind of a communication. So I don't think that there should be any kind of pre-made restriction so what can or cannot be done as art. But I do think that you can use it. It's a tool that you use and you need to use it in a responsible way and be sensitive to those who went through something which you can't even start imagining. So, yeah, that would be my response. Let me continue with another subject which is related to what you said before. There are a couple of things that come from your comments which bring other subjects. I can bring them together so we can open it more. The first one will be this aspect that has appeared in the different speeches that you have pronounced. And Bennett, you were saying that street art is direct, is efficient, is direct and efficient. And it uses brutally efficient languages. It doesn't need any intermediaries. And it's based on action. This is very powerful. Also, the capacity to interpret the work of art through the action by acting in the work of art. And then this subject which is so intense, which is the capacity to relate the content, the image, the formal element with the place, the territory where it all happened, where history happened. So it is obvious that this eloquence of art and the city with a clear image through art and also through the visual element, I think, it has a huge capacity. So thank you very much for bringing so many images and artists, reflecting these courses from many different points of view. But everybody has its own imagination. One of mine, the one I go back, are the German counter monuments of those artists of the conceptual Jose Angel, these people who in the 80s and 90s approach conceptual art, more subtle conceptual art, not abstract but conceptual to the territory, to the public space. And for me, they are reference, which are classics. And of course, we could label them as elitist because they are much more difficult. Well, I don't know if they are much more difficult, but they use languages which are based on the invisibility, silence, conceptual languages which are not so direct. What I would like to know is, well, I don't know if... It's not that I prefer this to the other, but how do you leave this dichotomy between intellectualism and more direct languages? And whether this conceptual art that I think is worth taking into account can or has helped us to have more powerful street art? So what are the links between both territories if there are any links? Okay, so I can answer first. All the questions you are asking could give way to a whole conference of symposium. I think that street art has many potentialities, as we said before, art in the street. But let me say more what it claims that art belongs to the street. It's not that we take the galleries to the street, but the galleries are there, but art is part of our lives. It has to be part of our lives and the communities. This is the basic basis. It's not that art is out of the galleries, but sometimes art is taken into the gallery and becomes a trade commodity, but art has to be part of our lives and has to be a tool for communication and social dialogue. When we saw the interventions of Ibo, for example, I understand that the actions that he's performing, shown by Bette, we are saying that if you visit the city and what you see when you walk around the streets are swastikas or racist paintings, you have a clear idea of which society is welcoming you or refusing you. So we're not talking about art. We are talking about the hegemony and the society which is active and takes the street and tries to fight against it and to win the public space, to win back the public space as a space full of values, tolerance, and against these type of attitudes. Therefore, we are speaking about the political action where the artistic fact in itself is second line. And when... I think that all questions are very intense or questions that you are asking because this space between what is conceptual, I think that it's an endless debate. In fact, I question myself often if I'm an artist or just a communicator because I think that art it's an intellectual exercise, almost philosophic, passionate, but it often requires understanding several tools and the necessary codes to be able to interpret it because when we go into the street we have to place it within reach of people and win the space in order for this to happen when the objective is to claim several values or to remember at least different episodes about memory relating it to all this. And I think that the cities, as we were saying before, give us an idea of what they are by looking at the flanners walking around the streets, taking a look at the different collectives, organizations, entities. All this makes us understand a city and a space and therefore I think that this is the ideal space and art is the ideal tool so this city not only speaks about this present activism and values of society but it also reminds us which is the memory and the history of public spaces because I think that the cities in a way are like human bodies all these subjects are uncomfortable, sensible, full of pain, injuries inflicted to humanity I think that injuries leave scars and if you heal them you have to claim them and be part of the dignity of the survivors and I think that art and the public space allow us to show these scars instead of another trend and a project space like La Modella it's a good place to speak about this because these scars have to be shown in order for them to be the tools that allow us to understand the weight that we are carrying as societies not something that has to be erased and replaced by something else on painful episodes I don't mean to stay stagnated in the past but to have a future which is not great Okay, yeah Sorry for all these technical things There were two things that came to my mind I'm very associative now One was that I'm very fond of conceptual art and I have to admit that whenever I go into a gallery or a museum I have no problem understanding of course if I have the background some of my favourite Israeli artists or conceptualists it even helps me really helps me to that there is a bit of texture or to grasp the idea but I don't... what I meant is that it's... what about... it's not like this elite art like we are a very close circle of artists who would understand only each other and we speak our language and look from afar from atop so... what I'm saying is that street art in a way is like... among us so it actually... it communicates with the viewer and it wants to communicate with the viewer so as I understand maybe not maybe some of it... there is a graffiti with just a protest of anger or anything and doesn't want to say anything about a very personal thing but there are street arts which are not like that so I'm not afraid of any conceptual... or it can be more... I don't know... complicated or even on the street but not as a kind of... as a close circle, okay? so it's only... if you haven't finished second degree in art studies then you don't really understand what's going on that was what I meant the other thing and I'm really really really associated with it I was yesterday in the... your museum of the Catalonia the National Museum of Catalonia and there is a wonderful Romanesque rooms there and there's a lot of... I thought it's kind of a street art not really street art but it's art on walls and when you think about it there were times when there was a lot of art on walls in churches for instance that actually meant to be telling a story and they were also supposed to be quite simple at least people understood they knew the language they could decipher what they see so yeah and that was part of their life they didn't have to... it was really part of their life they didn't buy a ticket to go to the church so that's what I meant being this kind of immediate and accessible and more close to what everybody is and not just being... not for these kind of articles in... academic magazines okay I was thinking I was thinking that you have spoke about the concept of interpretation the public space, the legitimacy I think it's a very powerful concept and I agree with this idea what you were saying about this capacity of street art to be evocative, direct and natural place is the public space and I agree with it the natural place of art doesn't have to be the museum or a gallery it's a later construct if we go back to this context and maybe we would like to listen to the audience as well but if we go back to this place where we are which is the public space space where anything can happen a strike or a manifestation a party giants, etc so spaces of leisure and conflict sometimes at different moments of the day we have this concept that has been repeated which is the concept of interpretation and how the citizen and the people that live in these spaces interpret the works of art and how this bright year for example is powerful in this sense because through the language of invisibility it's talking about something that happens to everybody we are all blind in the public space and we stop seeing swastikas when it's full of swastikas therefore if we place ourselves in the people who interpret whether they know how or what is your experience and how I would like to know because I was thinking that in the mural that we did with rock in the Plaza del Rey it was very interesting because the action was developed inside in the public space and several things happened there and let me tell you very briefly but this mural an object was exhibited in two different places in an exhibition space of the MUBA and the University of Barcelona so I would like to ask you because this is something that you have introduced in your project how to introduce an element which is foreign external to the museum within the museum and how can I explain from the museum outside you have already explained it but let me ask you about which will be the different artifacts conceptual artifacts all the narratives in order to explain what you want to say and the question that I wanted to ask is if you will introduce what you were saying at the beginning the limits of representation can we speak about the Holocaust and within the museum can it happen or is this something that you will explain talking about the context and the limits of representation related to the Holocaust but it's also related to the interpretation the way we interpret the works of art and let me tell you about the anecdote that happened to Rock when he was painting the mural there was a group of tourists coming from Israel and it was fantastic because we were able to explain that we were making a mural commemorating the victims of the Holocaust which are names of people who were fatal victims of the Holocaust in the Nazi camps exiled from the Spanish Civil War and the answer was very harsh and it was difficult to understand remember Rock they claim that they were claiming the memory of the victims in exile but they were not claiming the memory of the Jewish which of course was the human body which was more intensely victimized although that symbolically there were those elements that we had to have in our opinion but this is an example I don't want to dwell into this but this capacity of interpretation which has some consequences as well which are quite interesting especially in the public space where everybody is free to understand grossly what is happening there without what happens in the museum some writings explaining you the message you know this question is very white but the interpretation and the link between public space and museum and whether they are filters or not well I'll try to summarize because I ran an after time about interpretation I would like to think that the works of art and the interventions that we carry out do not finish when we, the artist finish this works of art but it's completed by the visitors when they are attached by the work of art and the reading so this is a process or a permanent construction and in fact I've always had the need to direct my message by adding quotes or by writing a literal message although it has not been a problem and thinking that I was making very clear which was the message that I wanted to transmit so I have received several feedbacks on this work of art contributing with different points of view which are much more interesting and help me to reflect on my work of art and this is part of the process we don't speak about empirical data but when we are attached and therefore I think that this is one of the strong points of art and about this anecdote that you have just explained I would like to contextualize it because it was a strange situation conditions did not happen in order to have a debate about why are we speaking about this I think it's important to claim it because what we were doing was to work with young people teenagers from high schools and we thought it was very important in a way as an artist I relate to the work of art you establish like a link when you make a creation when you work at it it can sound very topical but in a way it's part of you and I think that when you place young people to do these things they are related to the message they are given and I think that it makes them have a different prism and they establish a different link with the victims of the Holocaust and when we introduced this project and we understood that Spanish civil war is the war of Spain and it's like the introduction to the Second World War and all this part of the same I thought it was very important that these young people when we talk about deported people they should write Catalan names or Spanish names could be their grandparents we know there for them to understand that it was calling upon them it was not something fictional it was not something far away but something that was part of its own history and therefore in this sense each one of the projects can be approached from many different points far from not feeling sorry for the pain of the Jewish people I just wanted to give the student the possibility to connect in a more direct way with that episode yeah okay I don't know if you noticed but there was one place which I didn't find street art related to holocaust and it's not a place where there is no street art and that's actually Tel Aviv or Israel Israeli artists did participated in projects but in Europe not in Israel and it kind of make me think why why can't I find a holocaust related street art in Israel there might be like first of all also related in fact that street art is kind of connected to the place and things happened in Europe and not in but we've seen street art in many places so why not in Tel Aviv maybe it's and is it because of the sensitivities is it because they are afraid maybe artists are afraid to touch the subject although they are not afraid to touch any kind of subject including occupation and everything any kind of but I couldn't find any street art related to holocaust in Israel I'll still look for it but I haven't find it that might be one of the reasons because they are kind of keeping the boundaries and they don't want to do something too provocative on one hand and the other end they don't need these very simple images because as an Israeli well I don't know how much you know about the history of holocaust remembrance in Israel but it was very much depressed until the 60s and the Eichmann style before that people didn't want to hear about it they were not very kind to the survivors because there was this Israeli ethos of being strong and not being a victim and they were victims so Israelis in general until the Eichmann trial did not approach there was just really not so those survivors had to suffer also another trauma in Israel after the whole country heard the testimonies of in the Eichmann trial the whole view change and the whole attitude changed and as a child I was brought up with a lot of information about the holocaust it's like every year you have the TV is having on screening only things I mean films and discussions and you have to read books and you can't really escape it and of course there are the museums that you go and as a child to visit and now there is in Israel also visits to Auschwitz they are taking and it's very problematic but that's what it's done so in one hand there is no need I think but on the other hand yes there is a maybe they know they are more aware of what can be the the boundaries because they know more about it not sure that answered your but that's what came to my mind we'll give the floor to the audience because we have ten minutes until eight and I don't know if you have any quick comments or quick answers to the comments it will be time to do it now my name is Vicente I'm from Chile but I've been living here for two years I'm a doctor and I have Jewish roots my grandparents migrated from Russia and Ukraine to Chile beginning of the 20th century right here I realize of several things which were related to the feeling of non-identification with my Jewish ancestors because I think that Spain had a very important process of exile this is part of the past but what calls my attention here and this is related to the last question that you ask the interpretation of the work of art is that it was a bit difficult here in Spain with the little experience I have but last weekend I was in Santander because my girlfriend is from Santander and we went to El Haro and there is column where you have a sign which says the pause and there is no sign or infography or anything explaining why this column is there it just says pause and she told me that this is a place that pays tribute to the Republicans that were killed during Franco and I think that it's very important that the interpretation is in this sense when someone wants to remember historical memory because if you place me myself in front of a place that says pausa I see the light and I will think about the immensity of the sea without the context so I don't know what do you think as artists about this about art in Spain and remembrance and interpretation of art after historical memory I give you the floor because we would have to meet tomorrow again this time so just quick answers I go back to some of the things I have said before I think that the public space we have to take a look at the objectives what we are looking for and I think that maybe I was referring to conceptual art and it's passionate I think there are some processes that reach just through art which are frankly interesting and these are some exercises of reflection from an intellectual perspective which are very powerful but when we go into the public space and when we are calling upon white audience unless we have the tools to interpret these interventions I'm not saying to lower the level of complexity of the message but I think that has to be hand in hand with providing the tools or facilitating the tools in order to be able to interpret it because otherwise they are not fulfilling its function or maybe it's not the place where we have to intervene in such a way it's my opinion I think that we have to have the maximum of discourses and depth of the debate but there is a place where we have to go down depending on the audience the specific audience ok, I'm not an artist and I'm not Spanish that's true so, yeah but I kind of agree with what works and I good afternoon Frediko Schafer I would like to ask you when we speak about art around memory remembrance what I think very quickly are elements made by stone iron things that will remain but here you are teaching us examples of very effeminate art straight art and maybe the following day is no longer there how do we establish this relationship of remembrance with effeminate tools such as straight art I think that as I was saying that all parts from the content point of view have to be explored I think that every support gives us opportunities and I think that it's interesting to do some research in print characteristics of straight art of this effeminate component I think that in a way is directly related to the public space the space that we inhabit is life it's constantly changing evolving and in a way I think it's nice it's like this these are cycles and moments and we have the opportunities to revisit different subjects thinking about them or changing them and rotating them and I think that what could be an obstacle can become another value does not exclude exploring other parts which are more permanent in a way consolidate also and endure in time so this effeminate component provides it with the capacity to be participative and in a way are also subject to the past of time covered by something new and life this is a public space and cities and villages become life spaces I think it's a great question really but yeah I completely agree with kind of the archeology of urban life needs to be evolved and needs to be changed if you want there's something to stay for I don't know how long then you have monuments we have them it's not like we don't have that as well but I think the beauty to be honest that's my thing but the beauty about straight art is that it does not exist for life it does not last and it is replaced by something else I was once in Paris in a guided tour straight art guided tour by an Israeli artist and she was kind of describing as the life of an old and it's a community and they all know there's space kind of where they can paint and they don't really kind of will fight for space and it's almost like in life there's something very vivid and more like relate to us when you approach art in this way so yes it's not there what I would do by the way I would document the art as I kind of did here and I would actually I would urge the people in the academy or something to do more because I don't think it's done enough but yeah I would document it but I wouldn't expect it to be on the wall for eternity I mean that's not the concept that's actually the opposite of what we would like to have okay so thank you very much final question but you have to be very brief please because it's 8 o'clock so we have to be very brief with the answer please in any case not the work of street art and Roc was mentioning this not with street art but the theme that we are approaching political and ideological and it's important to value not only the context but also to which point and I don't want to open a huge debate but just a quick answer how the administrations they should participate of these interventions because there are affectations in the bar next to the statue there was the picture of flanco and the context in which this statue is placed also it's finished and there is an involvement and an intervention political intervention in street art yes it does exist and it has happened also in some interventions where there was an agreement with the administration and how to keep it and just a comment we always mention street art related to the cities but I think that we have to claim it in rural spaces and I think that Roc has intervened there thank you just a couple of comments to Beret although it's not a question although I would love to continue the debate with Roc also just a comment the selection that you have made of the work of art I think that most of them are reactive reaction against an action like antisemitism so they are works of art that belong to this body of the Holocaust but maybe it would not have happened without previously an action, antisemitic action and another comment it's not a question it's a comment I think it's a work by Lacuna of course we know all the qualities of street art immediate but art is not free of subjectivism and I think that it was the work of Lacuna the reproduction of the photography of deportation I was very surprised maybe you can quickly tell us about the change of color of the star from yellow to red memory and history we extract political element and semiotic element of exclusion I don't know if you can say just a few comments to conclude related to Lacuna I honestly don't know there was a very very brief introduction just like description of what the title and how it did it and he has a side and I was looking at his side and there was no indication of why the color changed but I'm planning to write him and ask I don't know but maybe it's also open for what I feel I was conflicted I wasn't know if it's the blood that he wants to or some kind of flowers something more positive like the red I don't know what red represents I really don't know maybe it's like part of ok that's the conagra we don't have to have a shared iconography you have your own interpretation and I might have my interpretation but that's the best I can reply about that and I agree they are all kind of response I mean once you decide to put a mural yes you are kind of acting and you try to say something I completely agree I would like to comment on your comment Chavis comment and often when we speak about the administration how the administration has interacted with some of my works of art one that I'm very interested in which is very significant and this is the via Valencia about the freedom of expression the quote of the ideas are not part of prison they are debated this was a project very interesting because it was reactive of political context of the moment but the reaction came later because it was the opposite it became a space of dialogue in which after a few weeks somebody went there and wrote something in Spanish laws are to be fulfilled and instead of erasing it or repair it that painting was left there and therefore that space from a metaphorically point of view went from a literary space to a space of confrontation of ideas and therefore when we speak about these limits I think that the important thing is not to censor the limits and if there are things that we don't like seen writing on the walls we just have to fight this idea that they are painted or not so the objective is that this is not part of our dignity to leave it there so if these interventions create and trigger all these dialogues welcome any space that can generate dialogues thank you very much I leave it here thank you very much we leave the debate thank you all of you for being here today thank you the technical team people of the model translation, the support people of the Uron and the Israeli institute of the best thank you for this afternoon it was a pleasure sharing it with you