 You're welcome back to the breakfast on plus TV Africa and our final conversation this morning is about asset recovery And we have economy analyst mr. Mac adibio joining us. Good morning. Mr. Adebayo Well good, thanks for being here So the issue right now is that the house of reps you know committee seem to be in a dilemma You know over the conflict brewing between amcon and the EFCC and about you know Assets recovery. Could you give us some more clarity as to this situation? Where the government is all organized it will lead to institutional anarchy And that is what we're having now You see look with the trip or is you We are killed the military alert or have stolen To have a security properties through Luther firms Has truly taken me long with those properties For which amcon is responsible for recovery. I think Yes, you just answer Because if the properties have been used for low facilities They go to amcon The laws are very clear about that. So that we need for this a full and push about who this water rules what? Apparently in the situation whereby all the corporate assets Ah In the concept of EFCC we are yet to give account That's what the fact that Anti-corruption organizations are asking Those questions for a long time now. What has happened to all the cash recovered? What has happened to all the? Properties recovered what has happened to all the luxury items recovered Then because you wonder For all the corporate made now you actually be going abroad copy man to borrow money again Since and so there's an issue there. Oh, so this particular matter I do not believe that should be any kind of a disagreement Over who gets what if it is established truly That those properties are made as a showcase for For loans All right, mr. Adebayo, of course, you just have put it clearly succinctly right now that there is actually a financial agreement between The the banks and of course some days and over the assets and all of that But then the question right now is that term? How do we determine how a financial agreement can supersede, you know, a court order? How do you do what? How do you determine how a financial agreement that is in place can supersede a court order? Well, he doesn't talk about that Well, I believe the court order should be a bit first Tending we're taking the time out So but It is the court of law to Because in the two institutions To be a guy the law is to be to be to be the first to resolve the issue eventually I feel I asked him about that. If you mean those property are being used in the killings, they go to Amcorn. Everybody knows that, that's the law. Okay, the reason why I asked that question, Amcorn is laying claims to that particular, you know, those properties because of the financial agreement. But then the EFCC is also making claims again because of a court order. So just how do we begin to, you know, marry both of them and maybe strike some sort of a balance? It is a court order for future. Because, I mean, I think it's going to be clear to anybody that it's a court order. Already, it's a court order. Only in years it's going to be a court order for future. And Amcorn comes out with legitimate documents to say that these same properties are being used to pick your loans. We have not been paid back. I think Amcorn still has the right to take over that property. And I think what they should do is not to engage in public part of the new super-reviewed subordinate. We just, Amcorn, we just approach what I think is going to be the last addition. And I don't think we're going to cut the deal. Yeah, because, you know what, when we are using the same property, before they can take the profession, they could be approached for temporary property. So that they can take over that property merely for purposes of investigation, while they give us a cause to ask for permanent property. I'm telling you, really, whereby the owner of the property is not making any claims, or he's or a claimant assigned by the court of law. So he has this view that he would be in possession of such a property, depending on when he's getting a final position by the court. Once the final position is taken, if you take the Supreme Court to about conduct. So I just hope that both decisions will show you to follow the path of law and ability and constitution to resolve this issue. You know, effectively, I see the courts resolving this matter. And that's what I think will happen. Everybody's going on to be gone, and you know, I have the right to support you. I'm glad to support you. So that's the issue. And I think if I have this view, already secure permanent property, it's going to be a dicey issue. It's going to be a dicey matter because the question we are right, what was I am from doing, what was I'm from doing that is not going to be a possession of property. But I say, no, sorry, we cannot have this property because we already have already been used to taking it. So if we can't quite talk to people about that, there's a permanent property order, or EFCs to take over, it's going to be a dicey issue. It's going to be a dicey issue. When we take a look at this story, the headlines that we see on several newspapers say that, you know, the House of Reps are confused because AMCON and the EFCC are both laying claim to the same assets. Now, how would you say this, you know, impacts on interagency collaboration? Because should that not be what we're looking to watch? You know, different agencies of government, you know, working in synergy? You have just mentioned the issue here, the fundamental issue that I thought you have, the question of interagency collaboration and synergy. So we have seen it even before, among the interagency that it is not there. One of the things that is affecting, are affecting the aspect of interagency terrorism and sympathy and bad news and clear others. But that's the issue that's been talked about in the interagency synergy and collaboration and I'm going to say that this drive-by, rather than collaboration, that this sense of superiority, I want to, we have this here, that is a major issue in the Anglican agency. That is this bottom, that is the bottom line of the problem here. It shows that there's no collaborations which are placed in the ID. You know, there's no exchange of information. Now, all the institutions that are working in the area of anti-corruption, all the agencies that are involved, UFCC, NIT, CSC, PC, well, Anglican is not an important, in a way, it recovers, I said that people have news or it's not about you, take news and that of that. And then they manage it to recover. So they need to work hand-in-hand with inter-corruption agencies. So the lack of, that lack of synergy, that lack of collaboration is a major factor in all the countries we are with. And we must find the good one. But when you have a government that's not a good night, we are going to work with the mission of our night. All right. The EFCC, let me just read out some insights that came out of all of this. The EFCC is complaining that AMCON is moving to possess some of the assets already seized and forfeited by looters. AMCON on its part is claiming that some of the assets were already in possession of the banks before the EFCC approached the court to secure permanent forfeiture of the same assets. What does all of this mean? Well, you can see the kind of people who have been around in this year's process. You know, I, I didn't know on being, I've been to the first century where such a conclusion to arrive in the first year. Look at the claims on the counter-claims. Is it not true? I mean, that is, this is where we are so backward in the area of data gathering and data management. If a matter was already in court, whether by PSDC or by AMCON, and the same matter, it goes to court on the same property. There should be some work somewhere who will not work on the same note. This matter, it has already been decided. Or this matter is pending in court. We regard to this same property. But because we don't have data gathering, some of our costs are still operating on a long, analog system. The judges are still writing in long-term, except for a few places in Lagos, where I think we have a very time on which the current governor has also suggested we are in recent devising the processes of the courts. You know, when you have a credit code, and you go to another court, there is this form you have to see. We call it a non-multipplicity of action. Non-multipplicity of action. That is to assure that court that this strategy is not pending in another court of law. So if you go ahead and sign the form of non-multipplicity of action and the court later discovers that another court probably of the equal deletion is already here in that case. You are in trouble. You are in trouble. So the purpose of reporting this type of crisis that those actions are taking is that people don't just abuse the judicial processes. They are come at taking possession of the court parties before IEFST went to court to secure permanent position. Then you can see that we are in for a long haul of judicial crisis. So it is true that we are going to be in the court that will resolve this issue. But who do we blame for this? Indeed. Indeed, Mr. The people, yeah? Yes, Mr. Adebayah, I was going to say that indeed it seems that this matter will be left in the hands of the court because we recall that in April 2021 the Senate actually passed a bill that empowers AMCON to go ahead and seize the assets of people that even including those that were not used as collateral. So if AMCON is actually putting this forward to say they have a Senate bill on this matter and EFSTC is coming forward to say they have a court order to seize this asset. So, you know, just like you mentioned it seems like a battle that only the law courts can solve. And then again, we need to also understand some certain things because the banks have an interest in all of this. Even the EFSTC says, I mean, the AMCON the asset management company of Nigeria is saying that the banks have already collateralized on this particular property. So how do they even begin to secure themselves? And these loans that have been taken so how do they get their money's back? Yes, Mr. Adebayo, how do the banks do that? Well, it's also seen that both of them have been on the call with the whole team for now because it seems the court court are not here to talk to them. And the Senate cannot do it. So I am still a guy. And so how property is already in the possession of the upper agency? Another agency goes to court and seems to secure the custody of that same property. Without anybody discovering that it's already in the possession of another agency. So that is something that is badly. It is badly because I am seeing almost a deliberate action to to frustrate the present. But eventually, I keep saying, see the same court that is going to become an agency. The problem is already in the possession of AMCON the AMCON has neglected to secure the property. Here it has no right to go and file for permanent of tempers in the property of those same properties. And you know when you secure a permanent of which of the property, according to the law, the property really becomes the property of the field of government, managed on his behalf by the new agency. So how do you get a court to crush his permanent position? And how do you go to court office? Well, we say if you have a court to secure those properties in the gallery through following the process. There are whatever court document that we are looking to ban you around, we say it's of no use. It's of, it's a tilt. It's of no use, it's of its own. Okay. It doesn't make a difference, it's humidity. Lastly from me, Mr. Adebayo, how would you rate the level of transparency and accountability regarding Nigeria's agencies, anti-graft agencies like the EFCC, regarding looted funds? We, the level of accountability is extremely low. I wouldn't know what the young man is all about. Who is now at the end of affairs of the EFCC with people like you? But up to today, we are here to have a comprehensive audience of all the assets seized by EFCC. What has become of them, we are here to have them. Until we have them, it remains opaque. In killing the EFCC, including the EFCC, you know, one of the allegations against the newly passed chairman, acting chairman of the EFCC. Well, the fact that some properties were said to have been sold as degree classes to friends and family and the associate. We are here to know the final treatment about them. So, we, the accountability is very, very low because it is an EFCC effort. We should know from the EFCC debates, somebody will be able to give us comprehensive records of all assets seized, including cash and jewelry, and all money, everything, and what has happened to them. Play around into billions of dollars. Here, Nigeria goes up to borrow money for almost everything. For health reasons, for the roads, for building water. Water goes to all the EFCC companies. So, we need answers to this question. The accountability is not there. The accountability is not there. Or until we are able to steal a full piece from the EFCC audit of all assets profited, and what has happened to them. The EFCC itself and other EFCC should be under the bloodline for proper EFCC distribution. All right, thank you so much, Mr. Mark. Mr. Bayou, he's a public affairs analyst. And indeed, we have been looking at all of the issues bordering on recovered loot vis-à-vis the confusion that happened at the House of Reps over AMCON and the ECFCC, you know, making claims to a particular asset. The back and forth was just alarming yesterday at the National Assembly. Indeed. Thank you once again, Mr. Bayou. Have a great day. Are you too tense? Thank you so much. And thank you, too, for being a part of our morning, Thursday morning, 17th of June 2021. If you missed out on any part of the conversation, do follow us on all our social media platform. It's at PLOS TV Africa. And please do remember to subscribe. Our YouTube channel is also at PLOS TV Africa. My name is Annette Felix. And I'm Justin Akadene. Like Annette has said, let's keep the conversation flowing on social media. Bye for now.