 air of plastics, government ministers who are both taking on this issue. So we're gonna solve this in one hour. Jim Fitterling is the CEO of Dow Chemical. Ramon Leguarta is the incoming chairman and new CEO of PepsiCo. Also like to welcome Brune Person. She's the Secretary of State to the Ministry of Ecology, Sustainable Development and Energy. James Quincy is the CEO and incoming chairman of Coca-Cola. And of course we have Minister Tran Hong-Ha who is the Minister of Natural Resources and Environment from Vietnam. So welcome everyone. James, let me kick it off with you. How big of a problem is this for Coca-Cola and what are you doing about it? It's not just a problem for Coca-Cola, which it is. I think it's a global challenge. And we've set ourselves a very simple goal because the way we look at it is, we've got to look after the things that are intrinsic to our products, whether it's the product itself, the water we use or the packaging. So we set ourselves some goals last year of we need to make sure that we collect back all the products we use. We need to collect it back and we need to reuse it to establish the circular economy because at the end of the day, we've done an amazing job collectively as an industry delivering convenience for consumers. We've delivered fantastic tasting products to the convenient. We've made them easy to buy, easy to consume but we have not yet made them easy to recover and reuse. And only when we put that bit of convenience in place that we truly have a circular economy that will give a value to each bottle and that's what will allow it to come back round. We'll design it to not just be beautiful but recyclable. It'll come in, we'll collect it, we'll chop it up, we'll recycle it and we'll make more bottles and we'll complete the circular economy because the bottle will have value. And it's a doable thing. We've proven it in countries, where there are countries with over 90% of this salt, we need just to take it to a global scale. So Jim, a lot of circular economy is sort of a buzzword. Is it something that DAO as a major plastics producer believes in where you actually use the waste and it can reincarnate in a new bottle? It's not only something we believe in but something we've been very active in in a lot of forums, including WEF for a period of time. And we've been working with Ellen MacArthur Foundation as well to come up with a framework of what is a circular economy for plastics. The pictures you see are the manifestations of a linear economy, one use and then it ends up in a landfill. But they're also the manifestation of rapid growth in developing countries and the fact that there's no infrastructure there to handle them. So in countries where we've had recyclability or we've had good waste management practices, you don't see as dramatic pictures as you do here. In countries where we've had rapid growth and there is no infrastructure, you see this end result. And in many developing countries, this is what ends up in the ocean. Ten rivers around Southeast Asia, China, India feed most of this waste into the ocean. And I don't think anybody intends to pollute the ocean but it's just the normal practices of people that live around those areas, gets this waste into the ocean along with a lot of other waste. Madam Minister, clearly the private sector is working on this and France itself has been one of the most aggressive countries when it comes to fighting plastic waste in our oceans, not to mention the EU in general. Just bring us up to speed on some of the efforts and what you've got planned for the next few years. So France has been behind on recycling, clearly. So we want to catch up. That's why we've made the circular economy a real priority. And we're talking about plastics because that's an issue that all our citizens very clearly understand. And they want us to do more to tackle plastic pollution and to actually put in place all the different mechanisms and policies that would allow circular economy to happen. And so we believe in really three things. First, we want to just ban single plastic use when there is no alternative specifically. It's also a behavior change, a cultural change. So that's what we want to implement and push. So we're going to ban, for example, plastic cutlery, plastic cotton buds within the next year and in the next few years. I mean, it depends on the items. We also believe in recycling, obviously. So we want to promote an economy that actually puts on the market products that you can recycle. Sounds pretty obvious. It sounds like common sense, but that's not the case yet. So we've asked about 55 private companies and also Federation of Companies to actually commit to incorporating more recycled plastics into the products that they produce and commercialize. And then third thing that we want to promote is the same sort of policies at the EU level. We're really fighting for that. And the EU has been really supportive and really leading on this issue. And finally, what we want to do is make it central to the G7. We think that there we can achieve a lot. And clearly, private companies are ready. So we cannot, the regulators cannot be behind. We need to be ahead. And we think the issue is ripe. And so the G7 will and could be a place where we can achieve a lot. The one thing that I would add is, I think, not a hit or behind, but we all have to be together. And we have to be making sure that the solutions we come up with actually improve the environmental footprint of what we're trying to do. So sometimes bans may positively affect in certain ways. Recycling may positively affect in certain ways. But if we drive the industry toward and society toward things that have environmental footprint that's four to five times worse than what they're currently using, we have to make sure the policies move us in the right direction. Yeah, absolutely right. I would say the dialogue between public and private is critical in solving for this. And it's obviously somehow to do with regulation. But I think it has to do also with, let's say, R&D. There's a lot of funding in the EU that we could benefit from as we're trying to find new solutions, plastics, whatever. There's clearly building more collection and recycling infrastructure. And yes, we're funding, but I think we need much more funding. It's consumer education. We can do it from the brand point of view, but I think we need help as making it part of the educational programs of little kids. I think there's a lot of collaboration. And there has to be a pragmatism in terms of the time. The time horizon has to be pragmatic. Make sure that we build on existing practices and existing infrastructure and behaviors. Otherwise, sometimes we tend to go back to zero when we do this. We've made a lot of progress in this area. I wanted to ask Minister Tran, your perspective on this issue. I mean, we see so many of the beautiful beaches in Southeast Asia littered with plastic. So what can countries like Vietnam and the region of ASEAN do to help fight this problem? I think that in Vietnam and in our Asian member country, we have the same situation from the common waste and plastic waste. And at the moment, I think we have to change, as you mentioned, from the consumer, from local people. And of course, government have to be leading the project from the chain, our idea, our thinking, and to develop new policy for that. And we cannot do something alone. Some locals, we have to approach local to national to regional. And at the moment, Asian country, we work together. We put it at the priority for set up the action plan for regional action plan. And we mobilize and cooperate with the developed country. And we set up the partnership from scientific, from businessmen, and from government together. And at the moment, I do hope that we need new technology and you need to change from product, consumer, and from the business on the plastic economy to change more sustainable and should be business to inborn project, to leading project, to support it, financing, and with the good policy and good action plan and to get the cooperation in the global, regional, and national, and community. I do hope that it's a problem. Problem should be better in the next coming years. So Ramon, the minister mentioned innovation and new ideas. Is PepsiCo working on, is there an alternative to the plastic bottle in the meantime that we can do that? I think the way we're approaching this, and again, on a very pragmatic time horizon way, there's reduction. So we can reduce the amount of plastics we put in the system. So both in our beverages and in our snacks businesses, we're working on technologies to reduce. We're working on commitments. We're stretching our own people to make choices. I mean, commercially and everything else. We're making the investment. I think that's one pillar reduction. I think we all have, from the conversations we've had this week here, there's a lot of momentum in a lot of the consumer goods companies reducing the amount of plastic. Then obviously, reusing and recycling, and that's probably the biggest idea, creating this circular economy we're talking about. So Jim has a clear role. We have a clear role. The governments have a clear role. We all have, as a system, a clear role in that circular economy. Then it comes innovation. Innovation, I think, the way we're looking at this is several vectors. One is technologies that, for example, can help us take what is dirty PET into, you know, transform it into eventually version PET. That's not doable. That would increase a lot of the amount of recyclable plastics that we can put back into our system. Ideally, if you dream, can we come up with materials that have the functionality to carry beverages to the end consumer, and then eventually biodegrade? That would be a great solution for this problem. The same with our snacks. But then we're looking at business models as well. And that is, I think, a big innovation. So we bought Sotherstream because we thought, this is a new business model. It's a clear, if we can scale it, I think we're giving consumers, you know, the ability to, or the possibility to create their own beverages. And clearly, we're limiting a lot of liters moved around the world, a lot of plastics. Today, we announced Loup. That's another effort. It's a small effort, a testing effort, I would say. We want to do this in Paris, in London, and in New York. Together with retailers, that's creating, again, a circular packaging solution. So I think we're innovating in many areas. As I said, we have to be patient. The solutions will take time. We're putting the funds. We're putting the commitment. We're putting the willingness. It depends. I mean, Sotherstream is a fact. So that's... Jim, how long until we get a biodegradable plastic model? So I think the real issue here is, we've got an issue in front of us that's big, and we've got the visuals here to prove it, right? And so it's undeniable, and everybody in the industry has stepped up and says, we get it. This has to be solved. There are near-term things that we can do. So I think designing for 100% recyclability now is a near-term thing we can do. Getting the collection, infrastructure in place, building that circular economy, building that social... In some countries, a social network or a value chain to create that circular economy feedstock for the next generation product, you don't have to recycle. In cases where you've got a clean recycling stream, like James is talking about with a bottle, a beverage bottle, you can take that right back into a bottle and that's a great solution. But not everything is that way. Some things are much harder to recycle, and we have to develop alternatives for them. We have to develop an infrastructure that collects them. Today, even in developed countries, not many recycling companies pick up the hard to recycle materials. And if you really want to be a recycler or you want to be a conscious consumer, you have to do a lot of effort to get that recycle material and put it into the chain. We have to fix that. Now, biodegradability is an alternative, but we also have to remember why we're packaging food in the first place, which is to keep it fresh and to keep it safe and to keep it on the shelves and preserve it through that value chain. And that works against biodegradability. A great solution would be, do you have an end-of-life product where I could initiate biodegradability, not that it starts happening the minute I package the food in it? You know, a minute I put it in contact with oxygen, we're gonna biodegrade. But maybe it's something that can be initiated later. Yeah, you made it, yeah. Yeah, many, many other factors can contribute it. The product that you put in it can biodegrade the package. So we're working, nature is working against biodegradability, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop research on trying to find that answer, but it isn't going to be tomorrow's answer. Recyclability, designed for 100% recyclability, getting circular economy solutions, putting a value on that waste plastics. One of the reasons it ends up where it does today is people believe it has zero value. We've got to put a value into this equation to create a circular economy. Yeah, it's true. I mean, it all sounds well and good to have a circular economy and for everyone to recycle, but recycling rates are pretty low, aren't they, Randall? How many of your bottles get recycled? If you take a global, global average, it's over, it's about 60%. Really? We either recover and recycle or recover and refill already, but that is not a, the global average is exactly what it is. It's an average. Some countries are over 90%. Some countries are down at 10%, but it absolutely can be done. This is, innovation will make all of this easier and all of this more efficient and all of this better and will bring the consumer in, but it can be done with today's technology. We've seen countries like Mexico South Africa, where we've gone from 10% to 70% in a decade. Recover, recycle. We have in France, Europe's largest food grade PET recycling facility that we built with our bottling partner and plastic bag. It's not operating at capacity, why not? We don't get enough clean feedstock. We need to get the bottles back. So the gap at the high value end of plastic, PET, the gap is collection. There are issues further into other plastic streams which are about recyclability and design. The gap of the PET end is collection. And I think it's about collective action. We've talked about collective action and the way we think about it is, we're putting this into the pre-competitive space as the lawyers would say. Everyone, I think with issues, they all start in the kind of competitive advantage space and maybe in new materials, it is about innovation and competitive advantage for some suppose. But for the big system, if we see it as pre-competitive and collaborative, we need to put everything in the pot and make it happen. So one of the actions we're taking is to make available to anyone, including our competitors, our packaging technology around using plant waste to make plastic bottles. Because what we want to do is see the biggest collective action on design of sustainable packaging and recovery of sustainable packaging. Because actually that's the collective action that will make all the industries more sustainable. I mean, Madam Minister, are there enough innovations out there for you to implement these bans? Are there enough alternatives to plastic cutlery and plastic plates? And why pursue that route versus just encouraging more recycling? So two things. First, we need to stop always thinking about alternatives. Sometimes we just need to change our behavior. And I'm sure that we don't necessarily need all the things that we have. Clearly, I think that's one thing. And the second thing is that, yes, I believe in innovation and I think there is a lot going on happening everywhere and that companies like yours, large companies, can also just buy in the innovation that is happening in startup companies elsewhere. So I'm quite confident. The issue is, and that's where what becomes more sort of worrying is the speed at which change happens. Because I agree, we need time and it's not easy, but we need to act fast. Because one of the things that few people talk about is that when plastic degrades, it actually produces gases like methane and ethylene that is actually worse than CO2 emissions. So we need to work together fast. That's really something. And I know that governments sometimes, and I'm fighting for that even in my own countries, sometimes governments are even more conservative than private companies, as I said, to implement policies. Sometimes they implement policies on issues that are not ripe enough. But still, I think that we need to act fast. Again, so this is a way that biodegradable plastics will create that same issue with emissions. So we have to be careful where we go and that's why. That's why I'm not a big supporter of that. So last week, we launched, along James' line with the pre-competitive space, we launched a global alliance to end plastic waste. 35 companies now, 1.1 billion in pocket committed, 1.5 billion dollar target. I don't see any reason that that alliance can't be 300 companies that are working on this. And the idea there is we focus on implementable solutions and full solutions that governments, cities, countries can put in place to help address this problem. Infrastructure around collection and waste management. I'd say waste management in general, but also collection so that you have the streams that you need, clean, but also hard to recycle plastics because we have to develop innovations for that. Innovation, innovation and research has to be part of it. There are many, many companies out there incubating new ideas. So we're gonna have partners in the alliance like Circulate Capital that can help us implement and screen these products, projects and technologies and get them to pilot stage. And then we can use the funds that we raise to accelerate that capital. It's going to be education and engagement. So that'll be education around behavioral change, maybe on what we need and what we use, but also how we work at home. It's gonna have to be education about changing our recycling behaviors. And we've got to do a really good job of pulling that alliance together and working together with programs like the Global Plastics Action Partnership here at WEF. What WEF needs in the Global Plastics Action Partnership needs is full solutions. So when you go into a country, if I go in and talk to Mr. Tron, I can't say I've got an idea for you. He can't implement that. He needs a full answer to the problem in Vietnam that works in Vietnam. And we've got to develop those solutions into full scale answers and circular economies that work in those locations. So, Mr. Tron, what is the recycling rate in Vietnam and what are some of the problems that you deal with in building out that infrastructure and how are you fighting that? Yeah, I think that is the solution when we're talking about recycling circular economy and four methods. And at the moment, I think we have to understanding from community to have the good awareness raising for people to do because every people have to collect the real weight. And secondly, we need to have good policy, no economic instrument for that. We have responsibility from production, production from business product. And we need to have the economic incentive for the people. And third, we need the technology. We've got recycling, reuse, reduce, and large. We have to focus on weight. And we have to focus that weight should be like energy or resources. Weight not is a polluted weight. It's the, I think that if we together to work and we have the support and we have good network, cooperation to get scientific people and government and business. I do think that what two year of five year should be changed our problem with plastic weight. You know, James, there's so much talk about cooperation and pledges and commitments and the WEF program and the Ellen MacArthur program and the alliance that Jim was mentioning. Everyone's signing on, everyone's committing capital, everyone's making promises. When do we start to really get the action behind all that? Well, firstly, I think it's great that everyone's coming together. There are plenty of issues in the world where you don't see this level of collaboration right up and down the value stream. There are no ocean plastic deniers. No. And actually I agree with the minister. It's not just about the fact that plastic gets into the ocean. Plastic waste in the soil can become a problem too. So this is, we see the stuff in the ocean, the stuff in the landfills is also a problem. So we need to get it back. I think what's happening is there's a lot of momentum behind the pledges. Actually there's a lot of individual action that's happened behind that by a lot of companies and a lot of countries. As I said with our example, we're not starting from zero. We have a lot of momentum. And so I think we are moving to the stage of not just individual action and individual country successes, we're moving to success at scale. This is a problem that has a visible timeline to be fixed, particularly at the end of plastics where value can be attached to the materials. And that's the PETN. The rest will take time and it's gonna be harder and needs more innovation. But action is happening. We're very determined, we're very determined collectively as well to make a lot of progress. And at the end of the day, this is not something that is a model that needs to be reinvented, although innovation can make it much better because there are countries where we have solved the problem. Collectively we have solved the problem on many parts of the plastics. Others yet to be done. So I think by the time we get back to 2020, 2021, we should be seeing material progress, not just more talking. Yeah, the global platform that Jim and James refer to, I think is a pretty good instrument that we've put in place. So I think it can work as a governance. Yes, as you said, there's a lot of efforts that we need to have synergies around those efforts and prioritization. But what it has is we're landing those decisions into specific markets. That's where we're starting with Vietnam and with Indonesia. Those are the two bigger markets in terms of pollution. So I think that we can, obviously the solutions are local, solutions are market. So we're trying to bring global governance, priorities, technologies, funding into specific markets. And that's where I think the connectivity we're having is great and we're starting to see real progress where it matters, which is in the execution of mega cities in Asia and those where really it gets created. So we're quite optimistic and it's not without a reason. It's because we're seeing that there's traction in specific actions, specific markets, specific funds. And that will drive execution, I think. Madam minister, just curious how the public and how the people of France and Europe are in tune with this issue and what you guys are expecting in terms of whether this will drive up costs, for instance, for alternatives and how it's actually gonna work if you put in this ban. So perhaps just building on what you've just said about the alliance. And so clearly what we need is a global movement, right? It's a systemic problem issue at the local level, but also at the global level, obviously. So what we wanna do as part of the G7 is we wanna build a coalition where about 20 to 25% of the stakeholders and specifically private companies are actually joining action and a platform within the framework of the One Planet Summit that actually is wanting to fight plastic pollution. Because what it means is that it will send a signal to the 80% remaining part of the market that is not part of the alliance against plastic pollution that they actually actively choose to stay out of it so we can shame them. And it shows also to the regulators that if 20% of the market is ready to do more to fight plastic pollution, then the regulator has no excuse for not regulating. So that's how we wanna work. That's how we approach the issue and we wanna do that on overfishing as well and on a host of issues that I'm not going to detail now. That's the objective at the global level. But I think one of the lessons that I think we can draw from that is the power of, it sounds obvious, but the power of citizens, consumers and how now you feel private companies are feeling the heat of global warming and also preservation. Because you're doing that because you wanna be good but also just because you're consumers are just tired of plastic pollution. So I think that's, it becomes key and a core to your strategy because citizens want that. And I think more and more it's gonna be the case for businesses in a host of different issues. So in that sense, it's interesting and emblematic of what businesses will have to face in the future. I think it's a good point. I was gonna go there, Ramon. How much of these efforts are driven by demands from the consumer and what is the consumer telling you? I think the consumer, as always, there's no consumer, right? There's many consumers. So you have. Millennials. Millennials, there are many. Don't they care more about these issues? Like we have, we create this big word, right? The consumers in some parts of the world with some levels of education and some wealth, they are very concerned about this. Many other consumers, unfortunately, they're not. So I think in this case, I think the companies are ahead of demand, right? There's gonna be, I think in the future, a demand for other alternatives. In this case, I think we're ahead of demand, and hopefully by the time demand for alternatives becomes big enough, we're gonna have the solutions. I think we're driving, I mean, I'm not saying there is no demand. I'm saying that demand is... You know, Jackets in France wanted to ban all plastic bottles. But anyway, that's... I would not go into jail on Jackets in France. Sorry. I think it's a much bigger problem than that. But so here, I think, but what you're saying is right. I mean, there is obviously, we're feeling in some segments of the consumer base that they're ready to pay for some solutions that are more eco-friendly. And we're seeing that brands with purpose grow faster. So it's a broader topic. It's not only plastics, but we're seeing that brands that have a purpose, that wanna have an impact on society and have a role in making society better. Like who? They grow faster. They grow faster than the brands that don't have that meaning. So clearly, there is an incentive for us on the marketing side to move our brands into spaces where they obviously do better for society. And I'm sure that long-term, that's a big driver of business. You're talking about your own brands. Pepsi... We're talking about our brands, but brands in general. I mean, James, how do you think about this in terms of the overall profit picture? Okay, I think if one worried about the next quarter or the next year in profits, you wouldn't do a lot of things. In the end, you only get 100 years or more of continuous growth as an enterprise if you pay attention to really what the consumers want and stay with them or stay ahead of them. And when you're in the beverage business, it's about the ingredients. It's about the water. It's about the packaging at the most fundamental level. So I think what we take is a long-term perspective. I'm sure there will be costs. We've redesigned virtually all the packages, not just so that consumers think they're cool, but so they're recyclable. We've worked on recycling facilities, on collection systems around the world. These all cost money. Of course, if you do it over time, it's more absorbable, but it does cost money. But in the end, if you believe it's right and it needs to be done, it's better to embrace it and get on with it than wait for the train to crash. And that way, you'll have a long-term sustainable business. So it's part of ultimately the long-term value proposition. But Casper Worstad, the CEO of Adidas, told me this week that he's making sneakers out of ocean plastics and it's actually a revenue driver instead of a cost at this point. Yeah, I mean, we can take the plastic from anywhere, whether it's the ocean or the ones we recycle. We've got bottles out there that use 100% recycled plastic. I think, of course, there'll be moments when it's cool, there'll be moments when people can think it's premium, but what I want is that every bottle be made out of recycled plastic. It just become the norm. And we've already proven that we can make the bottles out of 100% recycled plastic. We've gone to 50% plastic in small bottles in many countries. This is doable. I don't want people to say that recycled plastic is the cool, expensive one, and then the people who don't have income don't get the option of participating in saving the planet. That's not the objective. The objective is to make it the price of entry. Minister Tron wanted to ask you. I mean, Madam Minister was talking about the people in France demanding plastic bands. Are the people in Vietnam aware of the issue and what is their feeling? Is it a political issue for you? How do you take the temperature of the population? Yes, at the moment, I think that every people understand the situation of the rich, impact to their health. But how the people to inborn together with the rich, I think we also need to more the campaign and awareness. How the people, they understand and they have responsibility to with manage, with colleagues. Then I think we will be better for government for apply for R, without the people, government nothing. And talking about the ocean plastic, I think we have to talking about the inland with engineering. And we have to have integrated with management. And as I mentioned, we had to assume that which lies the resources and energy. And we have to change our mind for that. And I think with at the moment, we're talking about the induction revolution for that mean we talking about the new technology is for the plastic economy should be changed, transforming to more environment friendly. And then together, we have to apply for R. Then we going to very soon to limit our rich. And I would like to say with you our strategy for solid weight. We focus on the foot environment protection type subject for plastic. Banks to environment protection type is the economic instrument. And the lead of imported scrap and national technical regulation is being divided to control the imports for plastic scrap into Vietnam and more strictly. And did we have to global cooperation and which recycling project and which recycling industries are being supported in the life with environment standards. We have to develop new standard for weight treatment. And never least, I think as I mentioned, we have need to partnership. We exchange our knowledge from the different countries together. And we collaborate together and then we're going to fight with ocean plastic. Starts with Dow and many ways. Jim, and I want to ask you a similar question to these gentlemen, which is, you know, you have a lot. You have shareholders interests. You have your buyers like a cocoon PepsiCo, the general population. So how do you think about it as a business issue? Well, for I've been in doubt for 35 years. And for all of that time, we have always been continually working on reducing source reduction. So cut the weight in half, double the strength, make the plastic products better, make them more recyclable and plastics have continued to grow and be one of the most sustainable products out there. Now, they're not sustainable when they end up in pictures like the ones you see here. And we have to tackle that problem. And to do that, what we're trying to do is show leadership across industry in working with governments and working in some massive collaborations. I mean, we are mobilizing a global circular economy army to tackle this problem. And we have to do it. And it's not one solution. It's many solutions. It's not one battle. It's many battles. It's in many different regions of the world. The governments are crying out to us for help for solutions and we've got to step in and help them with those solutions. In the absence of that, they will go to regulations and sometimes regulations that may not make sense. And we won't be working together. And if we don't work together, we're not gonna solve this problem because it has to be implemented on a local basis. So India, the Ganges, 400 million people live along that catchment. For many, many years, people have used that as a source of waste disposal. Take your household waste, drop it in the Ganges, and it goes. And it ends up in the ocean. And I don't think anybody that takes their waste and drops it in the Ganges is expecting to contaminate the ocean. But they don't have an alternative and they don't know what to do. And I think what, for me, the greatest hope of this is when we come up with solutions and we show people alternatives and we show them how they can make an impact, the response and the pent-up demand to that is fantastic. So I believe we can mobilize the Army and I believe we can tackle the problem. Otherwise, we wouldn't all be putting billions of dollars into the Alliance to go make it happen. But our job is to provide that leadership and let people go out and innovate these solutions and come up with a better tomorrow. And not, as James said, not worry so much about next quarter's result because this is the right thing to do. Madam Minister, do you work with these companies on stage? And if so, what do you need from them? What does collaboration look like to you with the private sector? So several things, what I need. And again, I'm gonna talk about mostly France and Europe. I've lived in India and it is a completely different issue. So we need a few things, obviously. One of the things that we need is actually true responsibility. So you're paying, for example, in France, you're part of the extended producer responsibility system wherein every company gives a specific amount of money to an eco-organism. Anyway, I'm not gonna detail things here, but that system doesn't really work well. You could ask this body who's managing your extended producer responsibility contribution to actually work better. And so because you're not doing that, then we have to intervene. I think it's a waste of time, it's a waste of resources, and it's not being real responsible organizations. But things are changing and I'm gonna pass a law anyway, so things are going to, and I know. And I know, but at the same time, you are clearly part of the solution. Like in France, we're talking about the infrastructure, which is not good enough, clearly, in terms of collection, but you are helping us design a system that works for every stakeholder, and that's great. And what we also need to be working on with you is identifying business models that are actually working and identifying how we could use public money also in a different way to attract more private investment, for example, as a way of risking investments. So it's a close collaboration, but also close fights. Tension, tension. It's always healthy. Ramam, what do you need from the ministers on stage and government? I'm always pro-dialogue, and I think dialogue helps a lot in terms of finding constructive solutions. So obviously we've been around for a while, and when there's confrontation, normally the end result long-term is not so good. Like dialogue helps, because obviously we bring some knowledge, we bring some, you know, you guys bring some money and knowledge as well. I think what makes me very optimistic about this process is I think there are real beliefs from all the leaders of most of the consumer goods companies, and it's personal beliefs, beyond organization. It's personal beliefs that we need to solve for this, and we have, we're all fathers, and we're all gonna be grandfathers one day, right? So we really mean seriously that we wanna change this. So I think there has to be, based on these values and good dialogue and trust, we can build, I think what is a much more powerful end result that if we start creating, I like tension because it forces us, right? So NGOs play a big role in this. Governments play an interesting role, but the right level of tension supported by the right level of dialogue, the right level of investments, you know, that is gonna be a very productive systemic progress. Otherwise, you know, we create this tension, which is good short-term, it might be politically, you know, collect some votes, I don't know, but long-term, that doesn't work. James, anything to add to that? We're here for the long-term, and James will say, we're here to have companies that 100 years from now continue to deliver shareholder value. That's what we're paid for, you know, and that's how we believe we need to run our company. So we're not here for four years, we're here for 100 years. So dialogue works. No, just wanted to see if you had anything to add to that. James. I think it's clear. I mean, I think Romain put it well. It takes the government, it takes the NGOs, it takes private companies, and it takes making it convenient for the consumers because they're the ones who need to physically do something to put the bottle somewhere. And I think, you know, you're leading a process in France which will lead to a better solution. Let's remember that the European objective is 95% by 2025. I mean, this is not some fantastical long-term goal. This is 95% by 2025. I think there's an urgency that everyone feels the governments and the companies and the NGOs to put in place systems that work and copy from the other European countries that have solved it or reinvented and take it to the next level of innovation. But I think the sense of urgency is, in fact, the most important piece that's driving everyone forward. And I think for consumers, too, more 60-minutes pieces we get on this issue, the more awareness. I do want to open it up to the audience. More dialogue in the time that we have left. If you could just, we have microphones coming around. If you could just state your name and where you're from. Hi, I'm Jaydeep. I'm a global shipper from India. Two things, actually, if companies like Uber can fundamentally change the way consumers are behaving, I mean, they've made booking cars accessible. Why can't companies like Coke and Pepsi change the way consumers behave? That is, you know, giving back the bottles for recycling. The second part is, why can't we look at changing the way the product is delivered? So currently, yes, the base is that the Coke bottle or the Pepsi bottle will be a pet bottle. Why can't we just go away with bottles, introduce sashes with the powder, and allow people to just mix it with water and drink it? Why can't we look at that innovation happening versus assuming that it'll always be a pet bottle with a cap? I'm going to start. So I'm going to go in. What was the first bit again? I'm going to go in reverse order. Why can't you put an Uber and change the consumers? Well, firstly, you know, if you think about the vision of how do we make it convenient for consumers to enjoy beverages they love, it can come in many package types. Glass, aluminium, PT, sachets, maybe without a package at all. Ramon invested in SodaStream. We have our freestyle machines. We have machines where you bring your own cup and you can dispense free water or pay money to add some. This is completely possible. Sashets, often the sachet, it's got plastic in it. The sachet is not a substitute for the PET bottle. And actually, I could argue the PET bottle is much better because that has value when it comes back to me but the sachet doesn't. And I'm going to leave aside whether the water you add it to is contaminated or not. So we need to offer consumers a broad array of packaging and help them make it convenient that whatever packaging line they're going through, it is part of the circular economy. But I think it's important to remember a fact because it's not just about the recyclability of the plastic. We also have to worry about the carbon footprint of all these options. The simple fact remains the PET bottle has a lower carbon footprint than the equivalent amount of aluminium or glass. And a recycled PET bottle has 60% less lower carbon footprint than a one-way PET bottle. Like it or not, a PET bottle, recycled, reused many times has an incredibly low carbon footprint, even leaving aside the other benefits. Why can't we get consumers to change overnight? Because every consumer behaviour change comes from one of two reasons. The government made them or they got a better value proposition. Why do you book online? Because it was easier than going down the street and going to the car hire shop and having to queue outside and going, you've got a better value deal. We need to make it a better value proposition for the consumer. We need to make it convenient and better value for them to return the bottles to the system so they have value so we can buy them back and then reuse them. Then the flywheel, the circular economy turns very quickly. Actually, PET bottles in India is not the biggest challenge. I mean, there is enough value in a PET bottle to create an economy and incentives to be recycled, as Jane was saying, then it's ideal. Because it's the lowest carbon footprint and it generates, it's very good for the consumer and it generates the right climate impact. The challenge is other containers, other pieces of plastic where there's much less value. So one of the things we're working on how can we create an economy after you? So we create value and incentives for people to collect the plastic and bring it back and then we create solutions, either furniture or other solutions that for your economy would be perfect. So that's how we're thinking about it. And to reinforce the consumer piece, what's happened with plastic, I think, is that we've given consumers so much convenience. So over these last, whatever, 20 years, we've given consumers maximum convenience at a very reasonable cost. So now as we're thinking new models of consumption, either we have to sacrifice on convenience or we have to have sacrifice on cost or value. And that is the tension, right? So we need to create solutions that create both convenience at better value. That is a challenge. That is a challenge. That's where we are, to be very open and transparent. I mean, that's how we're thinking about it and how we have big brains working on these topics for every particular market, different solutions. Two quick ones. One is that- Could you just introduce yourself? Yeah, Vivek Manu. I live in Washington, D.C. I work with a group called Namati. One is that rolling out single-use plastics in advance of the kind of circular systems that we are talking about at the panel and hoping to build in the future is one of many examples, arguably, where in retrospect, the harm far outweighs the value. And so one question I had is just about something like a precautionary principle. What are the technologies that we are rolling out now where the harm is going to outweigh the value, the unintended harm that we can't foresee yet is going to outweigh the value? And what would it take either from a policy perspective or from a business practice to prevent those? And then the second quick question I had was about legal liability. Do you think that there is a prospect of a valid legal claim for the harm that has already been done as with tobacco litigation or some of the suits that are being brought against fossil fuel companies now? Jim? So I would say on the innovation front, across all the companies that are part of the alliance, there's a lot of activity on 100% recyclable and recycle-ready technology is what I would call it. So you've got from a PET bottle, which is a pretty straightforward recycle, then you get into some multi-layer plastics, which are very difficult to recycle. But you can put compatibilizers with that material and make it recyclable. Or you can go to a design which is a full homogenous, single-polymer, 100% recycle. So I think most of the companies are headed down a path that we want everything to be 100% recyclable when you put it out there. And that's probably a preventative principle, as you talked about. Probably the best framework that we have for package design and intelligent design that takes what you talked about into account is the work that Ellen MacArthur has been doing over these last five years to put that framework together. And so we want to leverage that into the work that we're doing. On the side of litigation, difficult question to answer. I don't know. The plastic waste got there really through consumer behavior and people putting it out into the environment. So I think it's a difficult one to say where that's going to fall. More questions? Thank you. Thank you. Katherine Cunningham, I'm writing for Drive Global and interviewing with Eurovision. And my question goes to the triple Rs. We often forget, the first is reduce, which is great that you've addressed the packaging and ways in which we can reduce the waste and also leakage into the ocean environment. Of course, we talk a lot about recycling and the circular economy. But if we could just spend a moment on the reuse. And I think, as the minister was saying from France, that in fact, it's really a cultural change that we're looking at and creating. And if our mindset is that I drink a Pepsi or a Coke and then I dispose it because that's the end use of it, then we've lost an opportunity. Since you're amazing, incredibly creative business leaders, I just wanted to, well, no, truly. Like you said, you have some incredible minds working on innovating new business solutions. If I could just call attention to one that Coca-Cola has promoted in Southeast Asia and producing different pops for the bottles that can be used as squirters for plants and have other uses. Could you speak a bit about how business can be a force for helping change culture to think more in a reusable way that our bottles can be used multiple times so we're not single waste, putting more waste into the stream? So good, you know, I think on our side, a good example, we have a series of innovation shops around the world called PAC Studios where we invite our customers to come in and sit with us and design, and not only the chemistry of the package, but also the functionality of the package. So a resealable pouch, a Ziploc bag, something like that, it's a very reusable product and has been for many, many years. Like you say, a bottle that has an intelligent design to it that can be designed for reuse. We get many requests like this that come in, and so you'll see a lot of brand owners, retailers as well, with their own private label brands will want to come in and do this kind of work and we can facilitate that kind of activity to create circular options. And not many people, most people are talking about the packaging waste, but you know, many plastic housewares and other things have multiple uses and can be used. Some of them will show up in these pictures in waste and landfills and in waste in the ocean, but many of them have been used multiple times. So we have to think about the end of life for those products as well. Did you have something to add? Yeah, I think, I mean, we tried to be as creative as possible and I thank you on behalf of Minramon for thinking that we were creative and we've got actually great organizations working on all those creativity. Reuse is an ongoing objective. If people can buy, in our case, a PT bottle and use it at home, convert it into all sorts of creative things, that's great, but at the end of the day it will come to the end of its life somewhere along the road and then be disposed of. And then it will become like our returnable. When we have returnable bottles, we have returnable glass bottles, we have returnable plastic bottles, they eventually do so many trips, they reach the end of their life. So at some point, when you reuse it as a consumer, it's gonna come to the end of its life. At that point, we want it back because if we get it back, if we get it back clean, then it has the highest economic value and it's what drives the circular economy. So I think reuse by consumers in all sorts of creative ways should be encouraged, but at the end of the day there will be the end of the life cycle and it then it needs to come back into the system and find its way into one of the streams where it can be reborn because it has economic value and that's really what's key. Yeah. Good. Hand here. Good afternoon. I'm a business school professor and I have two quick questions. The role of education at the elementary school level in our own home, it's the children that drive us to reduce waste. And second, any discussion about the role of industrial plastics used in industry rather than just going to the consumers? Yeah. Minister, I'm sorry. If you're an industrial, on education we lived here in Switzerland for 12 years and it's amazing how the kids think about recycling from year one, you know, and they see their parents do it and they see their brothers and they just have the different baskets at home and it's just an acquired behavior. So there is a big role in education and it has to be part of the government. I mean, I think it has to be part of the curriculum that goes into, you know, I don't know what age is when you can impact but I think it starts early and continues on. And we can play a role. I think brands need to play a role in educating consumers. So it's massive and it will take generations but it's a must do. I mean, we cannot walk away. We cannot think that just because we change materials, I mean, there will have to be a recycling behavior and it's about thinking that that plastic has value and if we don't do it, it has a lot of negative value for us as a group. So I think that that behavior is critical and having lived here and now we live in the U.S. and there's a big difference. I'm not saying Switzerland is better, but I think they've done a better job, you know. Simple, you know. The difference between Switzerland and France is huge even though, you know, it's like they share the same order. But that is to say that a small company and a big company cannot do it. We have the same. I think this is a generational, you know, effort that has to be sustained over time. I'm from Spain, we don't have it. Like, at all, I mean, we don't have it. That's why in France, rather than focusing on the content, we focus on the content of, you know, what climate change is and all of that. But what we're working on with the Education Minister presently is really working also on action and so making sure that kids actually are given the means to change their behavior and actually test out new ways of, I mean, new actions in terms of recycling, sorting waste, rather than learning everything in the book. But perhaps that's also because in France, we do a lot of things, you know, by heart. Really? Rather than actually moving around. I mean, Germany has done a good job and it's quite large. Absolutely. Yeah. I think on the industrial waste side, a lot of the attention right now is on thermoplastics. I would say thermosets as well. So in the space of polyurethanes, there's a lot of work going on and what you can do to recycle polyurethane materials as well. Probably not as much has gone on in the area of engineered plastics or more crystalline polymers which are a little bit tougher to deal with and that's a different challenge, I think, than what we're talking about today. In the less than two minutes we have, maybe if we could just get, I mean, I want everyone to give sort of a final thought and prediction on where we're gonna be in 10 years on this issue and whether we're gonna be talking about it, Minister Tran, at a place like the World Economic Forum. Yes. I think that I would like to make my finance that's, every people we have to respond to our environment for our generation. And as a next generation also need to recognize that if you are not part of the solution, we are not part of the solution of the waste management. You are part of the problem and now we are faced with big problem and our generation, our children will be faced with big problem. Therefore, choose to be part of the solution and promote environmental responsibility, production and consumption. That's it. James. Maybe it's as simple as in WEF 2030 or whenever that is gonna be, we stand back and we actually have to remember to take a pause to celebrate that we achieved the result while we focus frenetically on whatever the issue of the day is then. Because actually that would be success. So it'll be solved in 10 years. That will have made huge progress. Madam Minister. I believe huge progress would have been made. But hopefully in 2030 we'll be talking about textile and a host of other materials that really, that we need to address. For example, the fashion industry is the second most producing industry in the world. So yes, we're doing good things on plastics. It's only the beginning. I think the road is really long but it's great to have companies like you on board because you're putting pressure. I would ask citizens to put even more pressure on governments as well and on their mayors locally. I'd say I'm quite optimistic and it's based on I guess a few facts. One is I think the values of the leaders in the companies that are running I think are quite strong in that direction. Our employees wants us to do it. I mean the purpose of the companies linked to this is big. Second is I think we're creating the right governance and funding to get action done and we're starting to land it in real countries. So I'm quite optimistic by 2030. I don't know if we're gonna be solving the problem but we've made huge progress against where we are today. I'm sure technology, funding, people. I mean, I'm very optimistic on how we're approaching the problem. I hope in 10 years we have stemmed the tide of plastics going to the ocean and we've made a big dent in the cleanup of the plastic waste that's in the ocean that we're not just mechanically recycling plastics which is what we do today but we've also got chemical recycling. It would be great if we could get the chemical recycling back to a monomer state where I can make plastics out of that same plastic again versus the alternative. That may mean that we have to go through a path of being able to convert it to fuel until we can get a higher fuel quality to get the monomer quality. But we're gonna have to work with governments to do that because that's not allowed in some places today. I hope that we've created social networks and a value for the plastics so that in those communities, people can participate in the circular economy and lift themselves up. And I hope that we're talking about something besides these pictures from National Geographic. And we'll end it there. Thank you all very much. And thank you. Thank you.