 Welcome everyone to this sixth day of our 16 day virtual ABS conference. We hope you've been enjoying the conference and that you've had a chance to participate in the small group workshops on participation in this courses, which have been running this week. This afternoon, we have the pleasure of hearing a presentation by Dr. Glenn cotton titled authentic dialogue, moral empowerment and civilization building. In our session, Dr. Cotton will discuss the nature and characteristics of authentic dialogue in light of the high writings, and also in connection with the work of Dr. Sonia Farid Arbab, William Hatcher, Elena Mostakova post art, Martin Buber, David bone and Paolo Freire. Some epistemological and pedagogical implications of this concept will be explored with special attention to the value of such dialogue and education that aims for what Dr. Farid Arbab terms moral empowerment. We will also consider how authentic dialogue is applicable to the high community building activities and efforts to address social polarization and America's most vital and challenging issue. So let me first just briefly introduce our presenter Dr cotton. He received his PhD in education from UNC Chapel Hill, his dissertations findings reveal how authentic communication and dialogue, especially across social divides stimulates moral and community development. He lives in Durham, North Carolina with his wife ishik and had the bounty of serving at the Baha'i World Center for three years. His career as an educator has included teaching English for academic purposes and training future teachers at universities in Turkey and China. And he currently teaches English as a second language at the Community College in North Carolina. He has presented at the ABS conference before on the topic of truth, beauty and goodness, three interconnected aims of true education. Without further ado, I now turn it over to Dr cotton. Thank you very much, Julia. And welcome everyone to my presentation on authentic dialogue, moral empowerment and civilization building. This presentation is about a way of communicating I call authentic dialogue. It's also about the central role I believe this way of communicating and relating to the play in promoting moral empowerment and building the new civilization envisioned by Bahá'u'lláh. Finally, I will consider the relevance of these ideas to addressing what she'll give any calls America's most vital and challenging issue. In other words, the work of eradicating racial prejudice from American society. In my dissertation, I studied a behind inspired educational project at a US public high school, which was designed in the founders words to bring together the uptown kids and the downtown kids. That is students from wealthier, usually white families together with students from low income families who are predominantly students of color. And I have great authentic dialogue and community among them. Judging from the transformations, many of these students who participated said they had experienced. It's fair to say the project was successful. The key ingredients my study found accounted for this success was the kind of communication the found the project founder and facilitator was able to foster between the participants in his workshops. One of the students I interviewed eloquently described the kind of communication I'm talking about in these words. They were sharing what they felt, and I was certainly listening to their words. But to me, they were kind of washing over me. And I think that's what made me cry harder. I hadn't realized there was more under the words. I felt like I was swimming and heading to a place that I couldn't even imagine. I just felt like I was really hearing that person. Not the words, but hearing the person. She went on to just to characterize this experience as quote, a state of mind or state of heart with other people where you feel like there is no me or you. There is us. It's just this higher state of being. It's not connecting, and it's not coming together. It's like letting your outer shell go. So you can see the connection that was already there. In my study I termed this kind of communication, authentic communication. And my findings showed how experiencing it has a powerful morally transformative effect. By promoting what psychologist Elena Mostakova Passart calls critical moral consciousness, which I'll talk more about later. So what is authentic communication, what is authentic dialogue. In my study I defined authentic communication as communication that aims for truth, beauty and goodness. Let me explain. How does authentic communication aim for truth. Well, authentic communication is inherently truthful stemming from a strong desire to understand to know and be known by the other. It begins when one's defensive, judgmental, self concerned, sometimes even deceptive stance towards the other is replaced by a stronger desire to listen to and understand the other. Engaging in such communication requires humility, openness and courage to speak one's truth and change one's views. When such communication explicitly aims to discover truth. In other words to gain a deeper, fuller understanding of any aspect of reality with others. Then it becomes what I call authentic dialogue. How does such communication aim at beauty. Authentic communication and dialogue seek beauty in the sense that this kind of communication recognizes and honors the unique value or beauty of each participant. Also, when communicating authentically we aim to co create a beautiful conversation. In the same way that jazz musicians carefully listen to each other. As they improvise and seek to contribute just the right notes from their from their instruments at just the right time in just the right amount to create a sublime musical moment. And how does it aim at goodness, engaging in authentic communication and dialogue is an inherently moral act. And I see more goodness and morality as being synonymous in this case. So, yes, it is an inherent more is an inherently moral act that fosters restorative justice, love and unity in human relationships. We can also see how these characteristics are similar to the qualities of the Bahá says are the prime requisites for consultation. In other words, purity of motive, radiance of spirit, detachment, attraction to the divine fragrances, humility and lowliness, patience and long suffering and servitude. Authentic dialogue is based on and at the same time promotes authentic relationships. Indeed, they're practically the same thing. Only distinguishable in that each term emphasizes a different facet of the same phenomenon. So what are authentic relationships. In my study, I defined it using the same terms I use to define authentic communication and dialogue. For me, a relationship is authentic. When it is motivated by one's concerns for truth, beauty and goodness. By defining authentic communication, dialogue and relationships in this way. I'm hearkening back to Plato's observation of human nature. That it is our concerns with truth, beauty and goodness that distinguish us from other creatures. For Plato, truth, beauty and goodness are what the human soul as distinct from our lower animal nature thirsts for. Another similar understanding of what makes relationships authentic is found in William Hatcher's book, Love, Power and Justice, The Dynamics of Authentic Morality. In this book, Hatcher argues that our relationship to any aspect of reality is authentic to the degree that it is based on an accurate perception of the structure of reality. And that because the supreme intrinsic value of that humans possess. And that because of the supreme intrinsic value humans possess quote the mark of authenticity in interhuman relationships is the presence of self sacrificing love and altruism. The philosopher Martin Boober also perceptively pointed out the difference between authentic and inauthentic relationships, though he didn't use those terms. By observing that there are essentially two ways of relating to others. He called I it and the other I thou in an I it relationship the ego sees itself and others as separate objects in the world, competing for survival, comfort, advantage, status, etc. When the other is viewed as it. He or she is a thing among things. Evaluated in terms of how it either benefits or harms I. Thus, I relates to it as a means towards his or her ends. In an I thou relationship. The other is not a means towards my ends, but an end in herself or himself. She or he is no thing among things that I can presume to understand and categorize. But rather is uniquely other and quote fills the firmament. In other words to use religious terms. When I see the other as thou, I see him or her as a unique reflection of God. When comparing these three views on what constitutes authentic human relationships. We see a common pattern. In all three views, that is my own hatchers and boobers views. Relationships and communication become authentic to the degree that those relating and communicating are able to detach themselves from their self centered concerns and fears from prejudice and imitation. In other words from all the attachments our sacred writings tell us to detach from and relate and communicate authentically with others is to free ourselves from the prison of self and come to see in everyone who may cross our path. The image of God reflected by striving to communicate and relate to others authentically. We grow morally and spiritually. And especially boobers idea connects with something I observed in my in my research. Boopers idea that in an I vow relationship one recognizes the precious otherness of the other relates to what I what I called the otherness oneness paradox in my research. This paradox was this. Although the program I studied explicitly aims to help participants quote experience their oneness. And indeed was quite successful in doing so as the words I shared with you at the beginning from one of the high school students I interviewed a test a test. Nevertheless, experience oneness participants first needed to give up their assumptions that they already understood the other. And instead approach them without pre judgment as unique and different from themselves. Only in this way could deep listening and connection occur. I want to bring them to discover their true humanity and experience their oneness. I want to move on and discuss how the ability to engage in authentic dialogue is related to psychological moral and spiritual development and maturity. I have suggested that an outstanding characteristic of mature human consciousness is its capacity for and commitment to dialogue. To such theorists who have significantly influenced my own thinking are Paulo Freire, Freire, and Elena Mastakova facade. I really understood the aim of education to be to help learners develop critical consciousness, which is awareness, the awareness that society and culture are human creations, rather than facts of nature. And therefore that a mature human being is one who takes responsibility to actively intervene in the world to improve it, rather than accepting it as it is. And according to Freire, people develop critical consciousness, as they increase their capacity to enter into dialogue, not only with other men, but with their world. Similarly, the Baha'i psychologist Elena Mastakova-Possart, whose theory of critical moral consciousness provides an expanded psychological explanation of the stages of critical consciousness development, Freire suggested. Also describes people developing critical moral consciousness as ones who quote, enter into ongoing dialogue with life. Spurred by a quest for truth and justice. What I'm calling a spirit of or what I do call a spirit of dialogue is prescribed by Baha'u'llah as well in many places in his writings. Here, here are three examples. The idea that a capacity for and commitment to engage in authentic dialogue is a characteristic of maturity is confirmed by Baha'u'llah in this statement. For everything there is and will continue to be a stage a station of perfection and maturity. The maturity of the gift of understanding is made manifest through consultation. And so on, you may have noticed that what I'm calling authentic dialogue seems very similar to what our sacred writings call consultation. And indeed, in many, perhaps most cases, both terms can be used to refer to the same thing. The reasons I'm talking and theorizing about authentic dialogue rather than consultation are that I want to relate what Baha'u'llah's call consultation to the extensive body of thought and discourse that exists on the topic of dialogue, going all the way back to Plato. Baha'u'llah's have tended to limit their understanding of consultation to what can be seen as a subset of what I'm calling authentic dialogue. Namely, dialogue whose purpose is to reach a decision in a collective course of action or on a collective course of action. However, one of the things I'm trying to get at in my account of authentic dialogue is that the spirit of dialogue is not limited to collective decision making, but also denotes a way of living. So I'll go on now to share the other two quotes. The dialogical approach to life, a mature person takes is also alluded to by Baha'u'llah in his description of the true seeker. I wrote from the seven valleys, specifically the Valley of Search, where Baha'u'llah says, in this journey, or on this journey, the traveler abideth in every land and dwelleth in every region. In every face, he seeketh the beauty of the friend. He joineth every company and seeketh fellowship with every soul. Again, we find a profound description of what I'm calling a spirit of dialogue in that wonderful hidden word in which Baha'u'llah admonishes us never to exalt ourselves over others, but rather to be even as one soul to walk with the same feet, with the same mouth, and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Not only is the maturity of the individual characterized by an inclination to engage in dialogue, but the collective maturity of humanity, I argue, is similarly characterized by the spirit and practice of dialogue. Indeed, the age of humanity's maturity we are entering must necessarily also be an age of dialogue. Abdu'l-Baha'u'llah calls this time in history the time for the in-gathering of the scattered peoples of the world beneath the shadow of the almighty tent of unity. The scattered groups of people that make up our human family, each have distinct collective stories, have acquired unique wisdom and produced unique cultural innovations from which the whole of humanity can benefit. Furthermore, in the age of humanity's immaturity, the value and voice of only a small portion of humanity has been honored, while the value and voices of many others have been denied and suppressed. Yet, God tells us in the Koran that he made us into nations and tribes that we might know each other. The practice of authentic dialogue, in other words, true consultation, is essential, I propose, to establishing true restorative social justice. Indeed, authentic relationship and dialogue embody the justice and love and promote the mutual understanding, respect, and healing upon which true unity is built. The practice of authentic dialogue also has some important epistemological implications. The epistemology being the branch of philosophy concerned with knowing. In other words, what standards we use to justify saying we know something. One such implication is pointed out by the physicist David Bohm, who argued that one of the profound benefits of dialogue is that it helps us to recognize our own usually subconscious assumptions. Through encountering people whose assumptions are different than our own dialogue, he said, is a space where we may see the assumptions that lie beneath the surface of our thoughts. These assumptions become habitual mental habits that drive us confuse us and prevent our responding intelligently to the challenges we face every day. Furthermore, the greater the number and diversity of perspectives we take into consideration, the more complete our understanding becomes as the famous story of the blind man and the elephant demonstrates. Another epistemological implication is that we gain a fuller, more holistic view of reality when our search for truth emerges with our concerns for beauty and goodness. This merging of the pursuits of truth, beauty and goodness occurs in authentic dialogue, as I've explained earlier. The central finding of my dissertation was that experiencing authentic communication and dialogue across social divides appeared to powerfully stimulate the moral growth, specifically the development of critical moral consciousness of the high school students I interviewed. With regard to the discourse on the high inspired education, this finding leads me to the question of what implications might this finding have for how education can foster what Fundayak and Sona Farid Arbab refer to as moral empowerment. In her book, Moral Empowerment, Farid Arbab suggests that moral empowerment can be understood to refer to both the aim and the process of the high inspired education. Specifically, moral empowerment refers to the process by which one develops capacity to develop one's two fold moral purpose to transform oneself and contribute to the transformation of society. This idea, so since authentic dialogue both requires and promotes moral growth, and since one of the essential qualities of a morally empowered person would seem to be the ability and inclination to engage in authentic dialogue, I propose that the practice of authentic dialogue should be a central feature of education for moral empowerment. This idea also has relevance for Baha'i community building activities. Indeed, dialogue is central to the method of education employed by our Ruhi study circles and junior youth empowerment programs. And we can surmise that the more authentic the dialogue that occurs in these contexts is the more effective these activities become. Furthermore, our capacity to successfully engage in the meaningful, elevated, intimate conversations the House of Justice calls on us to engage in with growing numbers of people depends on our capacity to relate and communicate authentically with others. Finally, I want to consider the relevance of the idea and practice of authentic dialogue to America's most vital and challenging issue. In reflecting on the section of the advent of divine justice in which Shoghi Effendi identifies racial prejudice as our most vital and challenging issue. And especially on this part where he describes the differing responsibilities of white and black Baha'is in relation to this issue. It occurs to me that Shoghi Effendi has perfectly described here what authentic relationships and dialogue look like between people occupying different positions within an oppressive, unequal social system. I'm trusting that most of us have read the passage, as I have been rereading it quite a bit, especially recently. So I won't take time to read it now. But we can return to it if you wish to examine its precise wording more closely during our Q&A session. What we want to do is offer these implications I see of Shoghi Effendi's words, or how authentic dialogue and relationship can develop between members of socially advantaged and socially disadvantaged groups in an unjust society. Shoghi Effendi seems to suggest that the members of the advantaged group must continually examine themselves and recognize and abandon any sense of superiority and or patronizing attitude. They find they may have towards the other group. They must take the initiative to reach out to and foster authentic, intimate, genuine friendships with individuals from the disadvantaged group. They must take the initiative to educate themselves in order to better understand and sympathetically respond to the grievous and slow healing wounds the other group has experienced and continues to experience. He also suggests that the members of the disadvantaged group must respond with warmth and willingness to let go of their suspicions and grievances. And then he lists some qualities and actions required of both groups. Neither can think that anything short of genuine love, extreme patience, true humility, consummate tact, sound initiative, mature wisdom, and deliberate persistent and prayerful effort can succeed in blotting out the stain of racism from our country. All of these qualities of course contribute to authentic relationships and dialogue. In other words, positionality, the way one's position in a social system influence one's perceptions and beliefs matters in authentic dialogue. Of course, we can and should derive strength from understanding that we are all ultimately spiritual beings inextricably connected with each other. But we must take responsibility for the position we are born into within a sick oppressive society. Some of our responsibilities will therefore differ depending on our positionality. For example, Shoghi Effendi seems to give the primary responsibility to initiate authentic relationships in this context to members of the white group. In other words, the group occupying a relatively privileged social position in American society. He also emphasizes the grievous wounds of one group, not the other. That may be because as he explicitly states elsewhere, it is the attitude and prejudice of one group that has wounded the other group and not vice versa. Still, he gives both groups the shared responsibility to develop the quote genuine love, extreme patience, true humility, consummate tact, etc, needed to resolve this issue. So I'm going to end here and my presentation here. Thank you for your kind attention. I'm looking forward to engaging with your questions and comments in a spirit of dialogue. Thank you so much Glenn for your presentation. For all the thought provoking ideas you've put before us. So I encourage all the friends who are joining us and there are about 200 I understand who are joining us today to please share your questions and to do so. So please scroll down and click on add comment, and you can simply ask your question that way and they will be shared with us so our first question. How do you see the model of progressive cycles of development recommended since at least Rizvon 2015 by the House of Justice, supporting the practice of authentic dialogue. Yes, I see that they absolutely support it. Whenever I mean I've mentioned already that the, the emphasis that they put on the quality of the conversations we have for example, meaningful conversations elevated conversations in the most recent message. The 2020 July message to the American by community they say intimate conversations. These things are references to what I studied, I think and and so I'm just hoping that that these ideas that I shared today just can give us a hopefully a fuller or clearer sense of what that might what those words might mean. But I certainly interpret them to mean to be very much about authentic dialogue, a call to a call to engage in authentic dialogue. But also actually I'll also say that are the idea that we to participate, we are to participate in the discourses of society. We are to engage in social action and we are to do this with like minded people who are not calling themselves behind and who have different perspectives and and to do that effectively. It begins with authentic relationships and and get an authentic dialogue. And then what are some of the challenges that you've encountered in the education process, for example with teacher education for authentic dialogue. Okay. The biggest challenge, perhaps is that people aren't used to it. So as I've as I've already said that that it is it is. If this is something that is an aspect of mature human consciousness and mature human society. It is something that is still rare. Now and difficult, because it goes it goes against the ways the ways that we've been taught to engage with each other. There's a boy in in in the Academy, for example, especially you you see the emphasis is on argument and debate, and not and not on dialogue in my in my experience, though originally the Academy go we go back to play to it was all about dialogue. And so moving to the arena of institutions, how have you seen authentic dialogue nurtured within institutions, whether they be regional or international, and I'm not sure here if the question is referring specifically to behind institutions but I suppose you could address whichever category you you wish to address. Okay. I'm taking it to refer to to Baha'i institutions but I'll try to think about both. So for Baha'i institutions that it really becomes down to the study of what it means to consult. And of course we have some wonderful guidance on that and we have book 10.2 in the rookie books that's all about consultations a beautiful, beautifully done book. So, I think that's we just we need to be, we need to realize that it's not an automatic and easy thing we need to realize that it's something we need to continue continually be working at, because it's something for it's like I said equality of mature humanity that that we are. We're standing at the threshold of maturity but we're, you know we haven't we're striving to get there. We're at the embryonic stages of that. But we need to but at the same time that I'm not saying there's an excuse we need to be urgently working on it to be effective in the world. And so for for non for for Baha'i for institutions outside of the Baha'i community, I think it's the same thing it's just it's just maybe even a little little bit more work that would need to be put into it since since even the you know consultation is not as we understand it as Baha'i is not is not so familiar outside though there are exceptions to that there are some institutions that are doing it. And so with regards to the Baha'i community and where we are at today. Where do you, what do you think are some of the steps that we could take to evolve further with respect to authentic dialogue maybe there are specific areas of endeavor that you could comment on where you feel either we've really moved or these are areas where a lot of development is needed with respect to authentic dialogue. I think we have to realize the profoundly spiritual and transformative nature of engagement. I'm what I'm suggesting is that if we're if we're really doing authentic dialogue authentic relationship consultation. We are transforming ourselves in the process. And if we don't feel that happening. We need to go deeper. And that that includes you know the self examination that that, for example, that that that Shoghi Effendi alluded to in Advent of divine justice. The the the genuine desire actually this was expressed rather nicely and succinctly in by Stephen Covey and his seven habits of highly effective people. Or he said one of those habits as I recall was something like I'm going to paraphrase but something like seek first to understand, rather than be understood by the other. And if we if we do that if it's it's basically a shift it's it is a coming out of our ego. We're not this defense that we're not so concerned about, oh, he I have to make them understand me, you know, stepping back and saying okay I really really want to understand where she is coming from, or where he is coming. Now, given the dialogue is often messy and difficult and now we're raising the bar and we want it to be authentic we want it to seek love beauty and goodness. Should we expect that it's not necessarily going to feel good, and if it doesn't feel good. And if it's messy. Could we take that as a sign that you know it's it's it's good trouble or that it's, or that we're growing so can you speak to that feeling of the complicated side of it and how people inside of this dialogue with good intentions but maybe getting it wrong. What are those feelings that we might expect to feel. I love that question. First let me say that beautiful. And the simple the quick answer is yes. You know we we should expect that there will be all the human emotions involved. There there will be in a way it in some way it will be similar to the the experience of repentance in some ways, you know, not that we I mean we're I'm not saying we confess, you know, but but but the sense of really really having the humility to see to to recognize when when I'm what I'm saying is hurting somebody else. What should concern me is is the hurt that I'm causing, you know, and and and to and to remedy that or to just to step back and we need to engage with it in it with actually Martin Boober said this and when he when he described the I and now relationship. This is coming from his famous book by the way I and now you know. And he was he said that one of the things he said about the I thou relationship is that it requires the engagement of your whole being. And I think is absolutely a beautiful beautiful way to say it. And that's what authentic relationship is also, you know, there's a question that's coming in also on this theme of race amity, asking about, is there documentation of the race amity conferences in the early 20th century that we can look at them from the perspective of authentic dialogue and whether you know what what results came out and could we say that what was taking place was authentic dialogue is that is it possible to look at them in that light. It's a wonderful question that I have not researched. So I don't have an answer to that but I boy that's a that's a great that's a great research topic. I encourage somebody to take that up. Yeah. Well someone is asking, maybe you could share a little bit more about the nature of the dialogue that the high school students participated in it sounded like in your presentation you were excerpting from those dialogues can you tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, so, so it was the, the founder of this project, who was a Baha'i is a Baha'i. He, he was in a, he worked within the school system, and he took it upon himself. This that the purpose of the project was was to address the achievement gap. And, and so it really the workshops that he developed were the heart of the project. He also out of that workshop he had this kind of peer tutoring system that he that he he created where he would put maybe the he would pair a more disadvantaged student with with a disadvantaged student and and and and but but on the basis of a profound friendship that they would have formed within in the context of the the workshops. So what else can I say about the workshops I thought that that quotation was so eloquent that was from a, the one that I shared at the beginning was from a junior high school female white student was just really experienced a total change in her life. As a result of as a result of this one workshop experience. And there were also that I mean there, there, there were others that that were from, you know, various backgrounds that also including African American that and Hispanic that also in their interviews said the same thing basically that the how the how they experienced it. One particular student really described the kind of communication so eloquently I used her words to describe this this experience of, I mean, the founder called it the experience of oneness. He arranged the workshop in such a way that well first he introduced the idea that it was possible to experience oneness he had some quotations that he shared and some stories that he told that attracted the students to to the ability of experiencing this together. He helped to presence, use the word to presence a lot he helped to presence there, the suffering really caused by their estrangement from each other. You know, of these clicks, these clicks in the high school. And, and then. And then he had what he called the sharing portion of the workshop, which was kind of a climax, where he opened it up with a little clip from this wonderful documentary of the color of fear that you, some of you may be familiar with. of us of another similar workshop, a few decades earlier of between men from from racially diverse groups. And, and then that that that that so that was that that that played the role of really kind of what it was very very had a name for this thing. I'm not remembering it right now but but when you use something that kind of to frame the whole discussion and and and to to to bring up to to to work to really get people to examine themselves. And then and then the sharing happens and and there are a lot of tears. This is a kind of an ethic of care that is that is reinforced by simple acts like you know, passing the tissue box to a student that's crying and, and so this this ethos of care of caring for each other is developed. Yeah. Well, this is actually a nice segue into a series of questions actually that are asking about, you know what conditions need to exist in order to protect the less privileged or the less advantaged populations because we can, you know, people feel different in that setting and so I want to combine that question along with the question about, you know, to what extent can we say that the process of dialogue is even more important than the outcome so so centering ourselves on the the the manner in which people are feeling in that space and how do we even know what are the conditions, because people may be coming from different sensibilities different readings of the situation so how do you create a space in which you can reasonably expect that that person will be capable of feeling that there are part of an authentic dialogue. Very, very good question. So the, well one of the conditions that is and I'm not the only person to notice this I mean it's a very it's a it's a recognized by practitioners of this kind of, you know, doing this kind of work. You know, group work group therapy, you know, etc. diversity work. Racial justice work is is that there has to be safety. And but then you know what how, how do you, how do you do. I think one of the ways is that really you the the whoever's facilitating the process has to model it. So so and in fact that's exactly what happened in the workshops I was studying that that the facilitator was quite what he was the one that initiated the authentic relationships. It was his authentic relationship with the students there. The first authentic relationships that inspired other students to start to relate to each other authentically, you know. So, so the facilitator needs to model it. It's also helpful to have some rules and actually it's very, I think it's a rather crucial actually to have some some some ground rules. And there's, I mean, there's, I have some collected some different ground rules that that. In fact, right now there's, I'm in this will met Institute course on anti black racism. And there's a really nice set of ground rules I wish I printed it out I wish I thought of that. I don't have it handy but it's a really it's a really very very nice and eloquent set of ground rules. I've been in other groups where actually recently I was in a group where where the facilitator asked us to us to come up with the ground rules, saying what will it take for you to feel safe. And everybody and we end up coming up with a very, very, I thought very, very nice and complete list of rules that we set for ourselves. Yeah, so that that's that's important that you have that kind of structure. And I suppose somewhere in the midst of that dialogue would be interesting to check in to see, you know, has your experience been one of authentic dialogue maybe the person you're speaking with is not feeling that way so. Yeah, absolutely. I guess there's this kind of iterative process where you're kind of checking in constantly checking what you're experiencing. And constantly checking in there's also the kind of what is the takeaway, you know there's that that ending with an opportunity for everybody to, to share. I think the way the way we allow people to share is also very important recognizing who hasn't shared. Right. And that's again, a skill of facilitation skill. And, and I think also specifically with regard to when there is an advantaged and disadvantaged group or a group that's oppressed, and a group that's really in the position of the members of the group that had historically been the oppressors. That we need to. There needs to be a space needs to be intentionally made for the, for the voices that have been that have been suppressed to have the space to be heard. And for perhaps even actually not even perhaps I think, especially for the majority of the time of, especially at the beginning of the process. I think that to that group to to to share their experience. And you so moving from dialogue to action because the two are intimately related there's a question about what then is the role of action and authentic dialogue. Okay. Very good question. And they are connected, especially I did I did define authentic dialogue as as communication that aims for truth, beauty and goodness. And of those three the goodness one, especially relates to action. You can't separate it from action because goodness what does it mean to be a good person, you know, this is, of course, this is the it comes. I'm taking this like I said from Plato, you know goes back to Plato. He said these are the three dimensions of human existence the desire for truth the desire for beauty the desire for goodness. So goodness is about morality and morality is about action. I mean, I mean you can't just have armchair morality, you know, you know, yeah. Moving now back to from action to dialogue. There's a question about noting that the ABS reading group on race and and an African he has been studying this issue of treating others as possibly damaged or needing protection and the question whether the intention attitude then reproduced as unity because it creates this expectation of greater and lesser capacity that there's a population that we're now going to extend a special protection to in this conversation. And so, is this something that that happens, or they're starting that something that happens despite best intentions and so how would you comment on that good intention, but perhaps having these undesirable results. This is getting into the complexity of it of course. Good, that's good. Yeah, which is good, which is good. And God. So can you repeat the beginning of the question. So it's coming from the ABS reading group on race and African it is asking whether treating others as damaged or needing protection, whether that then creates or reproduces disunity based on the expectation of greater and lesser capacity and differential capacity and that they acknowledge that this can happen despite the best of intention, but that it may result in some groups feeling marginalized or less than community. Yeah, so so I'm just going to go back to the standards of that are given to us in the writings, you know, anything that causes us to in any way exalt ourselves. I feel exalted, or over the other is is something we need to undo something we need to dismantle, you know. And so, so so and and that part of that would be seeing the other as damaged, you know, now now one way to, and yet and yet one way. We are damaged right you know and and and we're not and and the but but if we frame it in such a way that that the oppressed group is the more damaged one, then we are falling into, we're in the wrong paradigm there. Okay, I think what we have to realize is no we're all, we all have things we to overcome. We all are hopefully, you know, striving together to become what Bahá'u'lláh wants us to be. And so how can we help each other. And so in that in that situation, we acknowledge damage but it's not my looking at your damage or, you know, it's, you know, it's a it's a more of a together it's a communal communal sense and and and not dwelling on the damage too much. I think that we can make a mistake there too if we if we if and and I think also it's not for me to definitely definitely it's not for any one person to comment on what they see as the damage of another person. That that would be a grave, grave error. But then the problem again is like Alba Bahá'u'lláh said, you know, the, the imperfect eye sees imperfection. So we have to look at our own eye in the in such a case and not and not the other. Thank you for tackling that question and I think we ended on a question that really took us into some of the complexity to complexities and maybe messiness of this but I think you're leaving us with a lot of food for thought and just appreciation of the difficulties involved but certainly worse. By the way, can I just say that that you know I did have the the bounty of looking at watching the Africana group Africana studies Africana studies group you know what is the what is knowledge. And it was, I felt it was profoundly connected with with I was I was it was it was so heartwarming for me, because they were saying exactly that you know that the kind of approach to knowledge that that is the Afrocentric approach to knowledge is exactly what I've been trying to, in my work, trying to highlight with reference to different Western, you know, Western theorists but I'm going to, I think it's be more useful maybe to directly. Yeah, to to to to bring in more of the Afrocentric thinking thinkers, you know, into that. Thank you for bringing that up that actually that presentation from Saturday has come up in several other sessions I've been in so I also want to give a shout out, if you have not seen it yet to please to please tune in so we're a little bit over time so I just want to give a big thank you to Glenn for your presentation and also for everyone who tuned in and for your excellent, excellent question which questions, which made for such a rich discussion. Thank you to everyone and wishing you a good evening. Thank you. Thank you. Good evening.