 And this episode of Skeptico, a show about making tough decisions. How many lines are you prepared to end if we do nothing? No! That's not a thing. Who we are? Of course it is. We are doing God's work. We are preventing the end of days. You can't prevent evil by doing evil. And how you need the data in order to make those decisions. Their interest was in the mechanism for turning on ESP and turning it off. We know that Kit Green was working on this for the CIA since at least the 70s. We're just now hearing Gary Nolan talking about it. The Nazis were doing it during World War II. The Russians were doing it before that. We can't exactly fill in those gaps. We don't know if it is the drugs, right? Or we don't know if the deception on the other side was something we call demonic or satanic or wherever you want to go. And that was leading it. Or we don't know if there's any difference between demonic and satanic and ET. That first clip was from an old movie called The End of Days with Arnold Schwarzenegger who doesn't appear in that clip. But it's kind of interesting that he was in that kind of movie. And the second was from today's guest Marty Garza. So you may remember Marty in his outstanding deep dive into all things UFO, ET from a couple episodes ago. And if not, you're in for a treat. Guy knows a lot. And we kind of went in a lot of different directions with this one. Very level three Skeptico style. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality. I'm joined today by Marty Garza. And for those of you who are Skeptico fans, Skeptico followers, you will remember that Marty joined me a few episodes ago. We did a very excellent show with the guys from Brothers of the Serpent podcast, Russ and Kyle. And they've been doing this ongoing series with Marty on UFOs. And I was just blown away with what Marty was bringing. They've done like 10 of them at this point. And this guy has done fantastic research into all sorts of different aspects. This kind of deep dive, both deep and broad into this topic. I was super impressed. I love the chance to have an interaction with Marty and Russ and Kyle, because they have their own unique and very valuable perspective. But I really, really appreciated the time that I had in talking with Marty. I hope at the end of this, you'll see why I think he really is a tremendously valuable and important voice in this whole UFO thing. And that might surprise you because maybe you've never heard of Marty Garza, or then again, maybe you have. And I say that because Marty has a secret second life, a really first life. I want to play this a little bit because it's kind of fun. But anyways, this guy was inducted into the Monster Truck Hall of Fame. You know, that's a billion dollar industry. Come on, man. Tell us a little bit about your background, what we saw there, the overkill thing. Right, to be on, Alex, it's an honor to be on with you. As you know, I'm a big follower of your channel as well, your podcast. So that is, I guess you could look at that as more like a crash reel or crash highlights. But yeah, that's an industry I've been involved in for the majority of my life, probably since about 1984. And I was fortunate enough to have been inducted into the Hall of Fame a few years ago. So I guess that's maybe a testament to my contributions. And you know, last time we did a rehearsal, I'm going to call it this on Friday because I totally screwed up with the recording. But you mentioned that there is an alien on the side of your truck. And I went back and watched a video and I saw that. And that your interest in UFO slash ET kind of predates the Monster Truck thing, right? Yes. I've had an interest in the phenomenon just about my entire life. But as I got a little older, I spent more time delving into it more deeply, into the more esoteric aspects of the phenomenon. And it's quite a contrast with my other life in the Monster Truck side, where that is almost entirely nuts and bolts, physical attributes versus the more, I guess, intangible aspects that relate to the phenomenon. Well, I think we'll talk about, you know, there's several meeting up points. One is nuts and bolts. Nuts and bolts is really so much a part of the UFO thing. And when you try and get away from it, like you and I do when we talk about consciousness and stuff like that, it sucks your right back in because somebody has an encounter with that technology or someone has a suspicion that we have, that is the United States, has developed some technology that is appearing as part of the phenomenon. So there is this kind of overlap there. But the other overlap that I'm reaching for it a little bit, but I think there's a connection there. You have a passion for this topic. And I do too. I know where my passion is. My passion is about big picture questions. Who am I? Why am I here? And I'm just crazy enough to think that I can go out and talk to a bunch of these different people and I can get answers to those kind of big picture questions. And I'm chuckling about it now. But I really am not chuckling about that is how I really think. I think I can get answers to these questions. But underneath those questions are the fears that I have and the fears about what this phenomenon may mean for how I understand myself and how I understand my physical self in this world in this time space and how I understand myself from a soul perspective. And one of the cool things I thought about the monster truck thing is like we talked about last time. It is quintessentially American. It is quintessentially I ought to be able to do pretty much what I want to do as long as I'm really not messing with anyone too much. And I think that this might be the reach. I think that that's one of the things that scares us about E.T. and UFO is that we might not have a handle on that at a whole different level beyond the Ruskies or the Commies. It's just like there may fundamentally be something in this whole thing that is going to seriously change the way we think about who we are. Can you relate to that at all? Or does that not is that not a fit? No, absolutely. You touched on several points there that are meaningful to me. The monster trucks being quintessentially American phenomenon. I would say that is true. It is what appealed to me is the ability to express our individuality through a technological means. But like you said, I'm kind of share the perspective of this big picture concept of our existence as humans in an environment that I believe is more complex than the average person ever stops to think about. And as that relates to how we perceive the phenomenon, I think it's important to consider that for decades, I guess you could say ufology has hungered for academic acceptance. But at the same time, I think that we have to consider the fact that we've got to be careful what we wish for, right? We need to be careful that by doing so, we're not inviting a materialist, reductionist perception of something that may be outside of that realm. We don't know that we possess a science that can adequately address what it is that we're encountering. We don't know. It's broad. It's very broad. So now I'm going to say you kind of laid a lot on the table there that we kind of need to deconstruct. And we're going to get into this because one of the things I want to do in this conversation we're going to have here, because I think it's really lacking, is we're going to try and pull apart all these different angles. When you say phenomenon, that means a lot to you. And I think some people get it, but some people aren't clued into what you're talking about. And they're going like, Marty, you're talking about UFOs. What do you mean phenomena? Well, in our run through discussion, I mentioned that I have this way of looking at the phenomenon that I kind of in my head put this effectively on a three-dimensional graph, where I look at all these different what I guess people would consider as disparate phenomena. And I put them all on the same graph. And we get all these data points that we have in three dimensions. We have time, location, descriptive aspects of the phenomenon each individual phenomenon that was encountered and all this. And as we apply this on a large time scale, we start to see patterns rather than, and this is kind of a deep, and I'm trying to give a brief overview of this concept, but rather than necessarily debating the minutiae of individual sightings that could, as we know, could be debated forever, there's no single case that is completely settled that, okay, this is definitively this or this, because no amount of information is ever enough to satisfy some people on both ends. Some people see every light in the sky is a UFO and others, even when there are physical trace cases that were tracked on radar and all this other multiple aspects to support this encounter, there are still skeptics that will remain unconvinced regardless of what's presented to them. So rather than waste a tremendous amount of time debating something that there will never be a solution to, I instead try to plug all of that in as just data, right, and you put all this data in and you look for patterns. Because I don't believe that we are going to settle this by looking at necessary contemporary events or historical events. I think it's a combination. We got to take this big picture approach and look for patterns. I think the key is in the patterns, because, and I'm going to, this is something I figure is going to come up at some point, but I think it's somewhat fits right now, is that it has become very common lately. And I don't know if it's just a fad or whatever, but we keep hearing the allegory of the cave, Plato's allegory of the cave. The idea is that we are in the cave and we are seeing the shadows cast from a reality that's outside of our known, what we can perceive, right? The problem that I see with that, that I don't know that that's necessarily the best allegory to apply to what we're experiencing is that it implicit in that is that what we are experiencing is simply a consequence of what is happening outside of our perception. I don't think that's entirely accurate, because some of what we're experiencing appears to be purposeful deceit or manipulation as a result of what's happening outside of our perception. Marty, let me interject here, because where a lot of people are going to go with this from where you're going, they're going to go, okay, he's just talking about the Jacques Valais stuff, and Jacques Valais deserves a ton of credit, because he was one of the first people to really say, hey, don't these ETs wind up sounding a lot like elves and don't the stories change over time and aren't they culturally based? And then he's also the deception guide to bring in that. I think you're saying that. What else are you saying? What are you, where are you taking that? I guess I'll back up to my description of this three-dimensional graph. When you start looking at all these data points and we look at those, and we start to look for patterns in this, we will see that if we, let's say we ignore what, I think if nothing else, what we should have learned by now is that nothing related to the phenomenon should be taken at face value. And there are multiple reasons for that that I'm sure we're going to get into as we get further in this conversation, but as this applies to the graph, in the patterns, we will see that maybe the appearance of the phenomena may have been different, but the conduct was the same. And we start seeing this consistency. There are certain consistencies in these. And we can get into maybe some of what those consistencies might be. But once you start looking at it from that perspective, you start to see that, you know what, maybe what we're seeing is effectively like a, and I guess in this place to the manipulation side that they're, it's like, let's say a newscast, an evening newscast. And what you're seeing on the screen is what somebody's narrative is that they want you to believe. They're showing you things to lead you to a certain conclusion, but they could also be excluding things that might be counter to that. But regardless of this, you're being shown things that will lead you in a certain direction. Well, that's where I think that when we start looking at these patterns, we see that the things that were historically considered to be angels, demons, fawns, you know, bigfoot, those kind of things, they appear different. And that includes, and that would include craft, right, physical craft. But the conduct, the pattern of conduct, what they, how they interacted with the individual is fairly consistent. So are these simply screens that were being shown that are not necessarily representative of what is truly behind it? Okay. So I love this because you're going so level three, you know, so beyond the normal discourse. And I almost feel like you're kind of going to the master class thing. My pushback kind of skeptical style would be maybe a lens into how we would process that bigger picture, which I'm totally with you on. I'm totally with you so much, but I feel like we can't go there until we start deconstructing the current discourse that we're having. So let me start with this one because I really enjoyed the dialogue, the conversation you had with the Grimerica guys, my old friends Darren and Graham, and you guys were talking about the Eric Weinstein show when he was on Joe Rogan. So let me play this clip and then we'll begin to deconstruct it. First of all, one, we may be faking a UFO situation for reasons that I don't understand. If we are faking a UFO situation, do you think that there's technology that's available to people in the United States that is beyond our current understanding of what's possible? 90% no. 90% no. So here's my point on that and then I want to go right into another clip and then I'll get your response to it. Eric Weinstein is a super smart guy, mathematician, really understands physics and just a very bright and articulate guy. He in this case does not know what he's talking about and what's really troublesome is he doesn't even seem to know that he may not know what he's talking about. Let me play another clip and you tell me if you think this guy and the people he's referring to maybe are in a better position to know what they're talking about. On this episode of Skeptico, Alex talks with author and UFO researcher Grant Cameron. We track this guy down. He turns out to be Dr. Eric Walker, who was former president of Penn State University. For 15 years, he was the chairman of the Board of the Institute for Defense Analysis, which is the top military think tank for the United States military. He was the co-developer of the homing torpedo. He was friends with Vannevar Bush. He had this incredible unbelievable background of military and connections with presidents and stuff like this. When we go to him, we're interviewing him as UFO researchers. We're not thinking about the mind. We couldn't care less about no connection whatsoever. We're talking to him and we're trying to find out the supposed UFO group that runs the whole thing is the MJ-12. We're asking him questions on MJ-12. Did you have contact with the aliens? How did the thing operate? How did you cover up the UFO thing? In 1990, in the middle of one of these interviews, he suddenly cuts off the conversation talking about hardware, about bodies and all the sorts. He suddenly says, how good is your sixth sense? How much do you know about ESP? The other guy goes, well, I don't know. He's not of interest to him. I don't know what's going on. Walker says, then as, unless you know about it and how to use it, you will not be taken in. Because the question was about who's running the group. What's this MJ-12? How many people are on the group? How are these people operating? And he says, unless you know about ESP and how to use it, you would not be taken in by this overriding group that runs the UFO program. Only a few know about it. And then in 1993, there's a related story with Ben Rich. Ben Rich was the guy who ran Skunkworks, the U2, the SR-71, the stealth fighter, the stealth bomber. They were all developed by what was called Skunkworks. And Ben Rich ran it. And he would get a number of questions about was this UFO technology. And he's giving a lecture in 1993. He's dying of cancer. He gives a lecture at UCLA to a bunch of engineers. He finishes the lecture. He's walking out. And one of the engineers who's interested in UFOs runs after it. And he says to Ben Rich, he says, Ben Rich, how are these things propelled? How are UFOs propelled? And Ben Rich turns around and he says to him, let me ask you a question. How does ESP work? Okay, who knows what they're talking about? Who completely doesn't know what they're talking about, but has millions and millions of views on Spotify and YouTube? Okay, I'm going to bring up something that we discussed in our previous conversation. On Brothers of the Serpent, regular listeners of the podcast probably understand that I very often will use analogies or allegories to make a point. And I did one a few months back that I referred to as the wall. And it's the story, synopsis of the story would be somebody wrote a message across the entire Great Wall of China. And everybody was freaking out about this and trying to understand what was it all about? What was the meaning and who was behind it? And each individual village that was at the wall had a completely different interpretation of what it said and what it meant. That's sort of the difference of the two clips that you played. Eric Weinstein is viewing his part of the wall from the perspective of science and materialist science. Grant Cameron has walked that wall. He didn't just look at the part in front of his village. He's walked that wall and he's got a better perspective of it appears from this part to look this way. But as you take more of that in, the picture starts to change and you understand that things aren't always as they appear. So I think your analogy is too generous because we've all run into this. Weinstein just doesn't know and he's he lives in this ivory tower where people pat him on the back and he just gets around people. Other people tell him how smart he is, how much he knows and they ask him his opinion on all sorts of stupid stuff that he doesn't know anything about and somehow he gives his opinion. He just doesn't know what he's talking about. We encounter this all the time, but we as, you know, guys who are trying to answer these big picture questions, we got to be able to see that difference. We got to be able to see Weinstein as not like somebody who has a unique perspective based on all their scientific knowledge versus somebody just doesn't know what they're talking about. And it's kind of just blabbing because they have the clout to get on Rogan's show. All right. Let me clarify a couple of points. I'm going to agree with you and disagree in that someone living in a village can read a sentence and interpret that sentence accurately. Doesn't mean they're right about what the overall message is, but from their perspective, they're 100% right. And it would be hard if you were to isolate the view of this down to that sentence, they could be 100% accurate. And that is what effectively what Weinstein is doing. From his perspective, he's convinced, but you have to factor in that he's only seen a very small part of it. Our conversation on dry America in my, I guess, what impressed me about that Rogan episode had nothing to do with UFOs in the sense of the phenomenon. What impressed me was his starting to give the impression that he's starting to understand the mechanisms at clay here where there, again, things are not always as they appear and that there appears to be some type of an agenda going on in the background. And what that agenda is might be related to human technology, advancement in science that was being withheld from even the the open scientific community, not the UFO phenomenon per se. He knows virtually nothing about the UFO phenomenon. Other than what he's heard, which he acknowledges, he's heard from his friends, Brandon Fugel and people that he's associated with. And he goes, and he says, look, these people have no reason to lie to me. I believe them when they tell me that they've had these odd experiences. That's the extent of his knowledge, really. He has not spent done the legwork that we have to research this for decades. He's been into it for a short period of time because he was allegedly approached by government agencies or individuals representing themselves as being members of certain agencies. And those of us who have been following this for decades know that this is a repetitive pattern. This is nothing new. He's just the latest version of. Yes. I want to almost carve that out of the whole oppy thing. Because it's always in play. And as you pointed out in this rehearsal, is just because you're part of an opp doesn't mean you know you're part of an opp. I mean, that's sometimes the best. So we should be curious as to why this guy who doesn't seem to know anything about either, I would say, he doesn't seem to know anything about the very human technology that may be being developed or anything really about the UFO phenomenon. And that's another point I'd kind of slightly disagree with you. You say he's bringing to the table this knowledge of, well, I know this guy who's working on anti-gravitational, you know, yeah, he knows a little bit. But as the clip I played from Grant Cameron from seven years ago and from interviews he did 30 years ago, there's all these people with a much better position, much better position to know that stuff. And also are out. Why are they off of Weinstein's radar? And if and why are they so completely off of his radar? And how is he so oblivious that there's people out there that are off his radar? He doesn't seem to be aware of Skunkworks, Lockheed Martin, all the technology that goes into this stuff that is on the borderline of, you know, secret and then all the stuff that's beyond that. I think it's important to note that he is beginning to cave a little, where he was firmly entrenched in the skeptical perspective. I think that he's opening himself up to the possibility that other things may be. But again, I don't place any real importance on it. To me, his importance was a kind of a separate side interest that I have because I'm a techie guy, I like technology. And I have the contention that we cracked fusion technology as a part of SDI back in the 80s or maybe even early 90s. And I think that more or less was what impressed me because you generally don't hear discussion of that kind of thing. And we've talked about that on Brothers of the Shepherd before, where there appears to have been censorship of that kind of a discussion in the past. So it's kind of strange. But that leads to this disclosure movement thing because I believe that the reason that we're even having these conversations and you're seeing these things in the media is because I believe it is likely that this is a result of potential adversaries, China, Russia, maybe nearing or on the verge of breaking, cracking these same technologies. And some of this is to serve as disinformation. It's giving them plausible deniability. Oh, that thing over your restricted airspace. Oh, it wasn't us. It was clearly a UFO. I think that that is definitely a factor. And I guess I should explain also that earlier when I mentioned the allegory, the cave not considering the fact that some of this is deception, this again is a multi-layer thing because the deception isn't strictly on the part of governments trying to cover up the existence of something. The phenomenon itself is deceptive. If you do enough research into this, you will see that it is very manipulative and so much so that it has worked its way into society to where we can't see the forest from the trees. We literally live, many people live in the deception that this phenomenon has created. And I know that we're going to get into that because that gets into some really touchy areas, but it is in my opinion pervasive. But it gets very difficult to segregate these things. It's a common, again, when you stick to the materialist aliens in physical craft from another planet type. In that context, there's a tendency to say, oh, the government is withholding information, the existence of this phenomenon. Well, bottom line, the phenomenon is the one in charge. If they wanted to make themselves known, they would, it would. They hold all the cards. Now, for what reason would governments go along with this? What is the mutual interest involved here? That's a completely separate topic. That could be a show of its own. But we have to recognize that there are many factors involved. We can't break it down into these simple, tidy little picture. This picture that I believe is something that was purposefully manufactured. It's a narrative that was created almost from the beginning of the modern Eulphoa era. I believe that a lot of this has been constrained down to a very nightly, segregated, it's either extraterrestrial or it doesn't exist. It's this binary choice, and I don't believe that's the case. Well, this is kind of, again, mind blowing level three kind of stuff that I'm right there with you. And I'd love to jump right in there. And that's what I usually do. I'm going to play a different role here because I think in a way, we're going to talk in the process of doing it this way, we're going to show another aspect of the multi-layered, impossible to fathom, always a contradiction and a deception kind of thing by doing it. And I think we already started down that path. And that is to say, here's this guy, Eric Weinstein, when you start pulling it apart, it just doesn't make sense. For me, it doesn't make sense because he doesn't have the knowledge that these other people clearly have, and yet he's the one who's being ordained to come out and talk. And this is, I think, really important because this is what drives you and I, I think, is that this shapes people's opinion in a way that kind of drives us crazy, right? Because you or I will talk to somebody and they'll go, oh, man, did you see that? Oh, I'm blown away. He told me this and then you want to go, okay, sit down. Do you have like three hours? Let me tell you how that whole thing fits into this other thing. Let me interject right there real quick. And this is pulling from my other life back into this. When you're in the entertainment industry, which is effectively what the Monster Trek industry is, you quickly learn that it isn't about talent. There are many very talented people that no one ever heard of. Especially nowadays, it's all about who's got the, who's got how many, you know, the most followers on Twitter. It's not about how much knowledge does he have out, you know, how authoritatively can he speak about this? It's about his public persona. He's, he's well known. So he's, he's going to get the attention. The shiny object always gets the attention. Meanwhile, the guys that have their head down and just focus on getting to the bottom of this, they're, they're very seldom are they going to be the ones with the spotlight placed on. Okay. Uh, accept that as, as true, you know, we can all kind of nod our head and go along with that. What I want to point out, and that that's why you're on this show right now, is because what I resonate with is Marta Garza is looking for the truth. He's not looking to build followers about his UFO stuff. You would go about it in a different way. You would express yourself in a different way. And I think there's enough people like you and I who are like, they're not beholding to anyone. They don't really have an agenda other than to figure this stuff out. And I want to, I was about to say seek the truth, but it's not like truth seeking is a deeper spiritual thing. This is just like sorting through the data. And that's what I think we're doing. And at the end goal for me is to be able to approach the topics that you were talking about, because we might have a slight difference of opinion on to what extent ET is in control, to what extent, you know, it's all about deception or it's an op or, but those are the level three conversations that we can only get to if we kind of clean the deck a little bit. So we clean the deck with Eric Weinstein a little bit. And here's the next bit of deck cleaning that I do. And actually, it goes back because we're going to have to pick on Eric Weinstein a little bit more, because you mentioned a really important thing to me. This is like the heart and soul of Skeptico. You talked about materialist science. And you and I at this point are so far past that, like you talk about the phenomenon, just casually, you're like, of course, it extends beyond, you know, this nuts and bolts human consciousness voice inside your head kind of thing. And what people don't realize is that is not the case for Eric Weinstein. These guys who are materialist science have made the ultimate blunder about how they think the world exists. They think the world exists inside your head. And there can be no such thing as telepathy with an alien or screen memory. I mean, they're on board with it in a very limited way if it was like technological in some way. But beyond that, they can't get there. So let me play another clip, another Skeptico clip from Dean Raiden. And this one actually will pick on somebody different. We'll pick on Michael Scherber who is another guy's been on Rogan like a gazillion times for all the wrong reasons. But let me play, let me play this clip. I have an interview coming up with the fantastic Dean Raiden who I can assure you 100 years from now, students will be studying his work because Dr. Dean Raiden experimentally has destroyed, crushed, falsified, put it in scientific terms, the longstanding dominant soulless paradigm that we are biological robots in a meaningless universe. And if you think I'm laying it out a little too hard there, give a listen to none other than Joe Rogan yakking it up with our old friend of me, Michael Schermer. But if you think about it from a simple perspective, the entire universe is in your brain. And when you cease to exist, the universe ceases to exist. That's just sort of true by definition. Now he goes a little bit further and says that consciousness is everything and that we bring into existence material stuff by thinking about or observing it or whatever. And here's some quantum physics experiments that are really spooky. It's like, okay, time out. Quantum physics is weird and spooky. Consciousness is weird and spooky. That doesn't mean they're connected. So you see it now, right? You see that Schermer is just wrong or put it in another way. His claims have been falsified experimentally by none other than the work of today's guest Dr. Dean Raiden. The spooky weird things with quantum physics are related to consciousness. And we can show it experimentally. Here's a clip from the interview coming up with Dean. Well, so we're trying to connect it to quantum mechanics. And so we've done that in two ways. The first way is using a double slit optical system to see if you can gain which path information, which are the two slits of photon goes through. And so we've now done about two dozen such experiments. And some of them work, then some of them don't work. But if you do a meta analysis across the board, it looks like there's pretty good evidence that something is going on, that the consciousness is involved in some way in the quantum process. I also want to add in one other quantum oriented experiment that we more recently published, which involves the use of entangled photons as the target of a mind-matter interaction, because we wanted to look at non-local mind interacting with non-local matter. And did it do anything? Part of the experiment was looking at, could you increase the strength of entanglement and then intentionally decrease the strength of entanglement? The short answer is, yeah, we're able to modulate it. So that might be slightly obtuse to those who haven't kind of been around and do this. I know you get it. But trust me or don't trust me, that completely violates Eric Weinstein's view of the world and science. He's just wrong. Materialism has been falsified by those experiments that he mentioned. What Michael Shermer said in that quote from Joe Rogan is completely contradicted experimentally by what Dean Raiden says. So back to our conversation that you and I are having Marty. One reason we shouldn't trust Eric Weinstein is because he doesn't seem to know that there's a weird desk at Lockheed Martin that sees all sorts of stuff that he has no imagination for. But the second reason we shouldn't trust him or Neil deGrasse Tyson or Michael Shermer, not trust him as liars, but trust him as reliable in this conversation that we're having is they don't seem to understand that consciousness is always at play and that consciousness is a fundamental aspect to the phenomenon. As you keep saying, ET is telepathic. We don't know how we don't know why, but ET is telepathic. ET seems to have the ability to deceive us at a level of screen memory or time shifting or all this other stuff that if you're not open to what I just played there, you are going to be shut down to that and you won't even be able to bring it into your point of reference because it violates everything that all the guys at your club say, the club being, you know, the conferences that you go to, the meetings you have with the department, all that stuff. It's just it can't possibly be in your wheelhouse. Well, I mean, there was a lot there, right? But I'll start with this part. Just like Eric Weinstein is acknowledging now that there is public science and black science, black project science. Instead of going by what the talking heads say in public, instead, I would suggest we look at the record of what is it that the government has been investing in for decades. As early as the 1952, and I know you've had discussions about it, Andre Paharic was already working on the mechanisms to turn on and off this communication, this nonverbal communication, this interaction. I'm trying not to give too much information. Something that's still in it. It's developing. I've got a series that Russ and Kyle are and I are presenting right now that I call the spookiest story never told. And we have only done one part, but I've got at least three more parts coming in it. And it's sort of without giving too much away talks about how governments came about discovering that there was this nonverbal, maybe nonhuman, intelligent communications. Hold on. You're not going to tell the story. I'm going to tell the story and then that's going to force you to pull into it. Because Paharic is like he's a genius. He's a PhD at Northwestern, which is known to be kind of CIA incubation center. He does all these various things, but we'll cut to the chase. He starts having these seances with the nine. And the nine are this inner galactic, if you will. This is right out of Star Wars group that's ET, essentially. And it pulls them in a million different ways. It's hard to know what part of that is a deception on that other part and this and that, but it becomes he is so important to the military at this point. He is totally plugged in at the highest levels and they're being told to go do this, but then he always kind of ventures off and does his own thing. So I had to set the table because I want you to take over, but this is like if anyone goes and reads this history, this is like in play. This is like more than in play. Okay. And without giving a lot of detail because in the series, we go into like the minutiae of how these things came about because I think a lot of times people have heard certain stories, but they have no context. They don't understand how that bit of data fits in with the big picture and how this progressed over decades. But just to give an example of how important this is, as you mentioned, Park was already doing this. He was you know, the part about the communication with the nine and everything. There's a lot of detail there. There's a lot to discuss, but the most important thing to recognize is that, and this is part of his presentations to the Pentagon and how he was able to get them to fund this research was their interest was in the mechanism for turning on ESP and turning it off. And how that relates to what we see going on today is now you have Gary Nolan talking about schizophrenics, hearing voices, and what mechanism might be at play that schizophrenia is the inability to turn it off. And how so in other words, they're getting close. We know that Kit Green was working on this for the CIA since at least the 70s. We're just now hearing Gary Nolan here, you know, talking about it, you know, within the last year or so. But the reality is this is research the government has been conducting since at least the 50s. That's the US government back up. The Nazis were doing it during World War II. The Russians were doing it before that. And in part one, I explained how how this came about how it transitioned from being an interest of the Soviets. It got adopted by the Nazis. Then after the parts are going to get into how the US picked up the ball when we do operation paperclip, we started to learn what they knew about this. What did the Russians learn about this? And how did that go forward? There's a huge story that's never been adequately told. I know Annie Jacobson has talked a good bit about it, but she's she's just kind of hitting the surface of much more esoteric things that were going on. Right. The only problem with that and that is like another show both for it for you guys to have because you're going to plow all that ground in great depth and you do a great, great job of it. The pull up for me is that we can't exactly fill in those gaps. And in a way, Paharic is like the perfect figure for this because he kind of goes crazy in a way. And part of it is because he starts doing too much drugs, you know, because the drugs are tapping into these extended realms and then he's doing more and more. And that kind of leads in the wrong way. And then also what we don't know that even that is like, we don't know if it is the drugs, right? Or we don't know if the deception on the other side was not really ET, but was something we'd call demonic or satanic or wherever you want to go. And that was leading it. Or we don't know if there's any difference between demonic and satanic and ET. So that's where I think you and I would have this kind of level three discussion. But I just don't think most people can can get there without a huge, huge background that it needs to be in some ways broader than where you're trying to go with the MK Ultra thing. Because what I always thought was a great discovery about UFO researcher Grant Cameron is when he talks about the Wilbert Smith memo. People in UFO know what it is, but it's basically writes his memory says, bro, it's going on. It is the most top secret thing. And there's a mental phenomenon associated with it, which is the key word. I think that that is fundamental to their interest in Puharich, their interest in MK Ultra, their interest in Project Stargate and remote viewing. It's at some level that isn't exposed to us because this is how the military does things and secrets things. No one it's compartmentalized. So no one knows that that is the agenda. But they kind of are stumbling through this and they know that something's up with ET and the mental aspect of it. So you got all this stuff popping up over here. And that's part of the reason and the reason I don't think it's about like literally turning it on and off. That would be like point one out of 100 things that you'd want to know about this extended consciousness realm and how it fits with ET. Yeah, I think that that that's a good segue to again to what we see going on today, how this current round of what we talk about disclosure, stemming from the December 17 New York Times, 2017 New York Times article, like Blowing Auras in Black Money by Leslie Keane and Ralph Lumenthal. People have that are probably not aware, I tend to say forgotten because I'm maybe showing my age there a little bit. They have are unaware that this is yet again simply a repetitive pattern. And going back to the what in 1949, there were articles in The Saturday Evening Post written by Sydney Shallot. Then we had in 1951, we had The Life article by Bob Gina, Have We Visitors From Space. We had Donald Kehoe doing his his articles for True Magazine. And all of these effectively were saying the government is withholding evidence of extraterrestrials. But then we come to find out through Edward Rupel, the head of Project Blue Book in his book, that all of these articles were inspired by the military. The Department of Defense selected the reporters they wanted to convey these messages. Why? Why would they purposely be interjecting the idea that they're hiding something into the public consciousness? And I think as the component, the important part of that was they were introducing this, again, binary choice of either that doesn't exist or it's extraterrestrials involved. They have indoctrinated us into viewing this phenomenon as objects in the sky that are coming from a distant place. Not that this is something that may reside within our realm all around us and interacts with us directly. It's two completely different things. When they were aware of this from the very beginning, almost very beginning. Are you against the idea that they're objects from other planets that are flying here and have intelligent beings inside of their craft? Are you willing to entertain the idea that that is an aspect of this phenomenon? And it's real in the sense that in the same way we think stealth bombers are real, that that's real. Okay, that's a rather complex question, or should I say, requires a rather complex explanation. And I'll preface it by saying, even the most unlikely explanation has as much validity as any other knowledge. It could be the most unlikely thing that could be behind this. And it doesn't mean it's not that, right? But I personally believe just looking at this analytically, I tried to consider all the options, as many options as I'm aware of, right? And I think it's unlikely that physical extraterrestrial beings are traveling as in moving from one place to another here in craft. I think, and the reason I say this is a really complicated explanation, but I think first we have to understand that as human beings, as homo sapiens, we have this tendency to view intelligence on a scale, let's call this a one to 10 scale. And we view ourselves like we're so smart, you know, we're an eight on this one to 10 scale. And these extraterrestrials have been around a lot longer than us. So they're probably a 10, you know, but we can get there. Well, if they know we're capable of understanding, we just haven't quite gotten it. When the reality is we could following that same scale, we could be an eight and they could be a billion. In other words, they could be so far more advanced that we're incapable of even perceiving them. We couldn't, in other words, we may live within a reality that is a piece of a much grander mechanism that we're incapable of comprehending, right? So following on that, I think that only in the most basic of extraterrestrial intelligences would be traveling in the meat by means of mechanical devices, the way we as human beings travel by mechanical devices. I believe that is based on the evidence in other other types of evidence. It's suggested, as Ben Rich said, if you're using ESP, if we know that from the NDEs and remote viewing that we are capable of separating our consciousness from our physical body, that is very possible that that form of technology, if they want our ability, is is more likely to be a means of exploring vast distances, instantaneously or anything, rather than through mechanical means, the way we tend to view travel. I don't know if that's, I know that's a really complicated explanation, but it's complicated. I just think it's, it's, I'm going to push you. I think it's inadequate. If we want to go down the simulation hypothesis theory, we can do that. You know, we're living in a simulation, everything's a simulation, but there's no there there in terms of having any kind of discussion. I think the same is true in terms of like, if the stealth bomber, which was hidden from us and now isn't hidden from us and we think we know it and we can point to it when it's on the field at the air show and say that it does those things. If we're saying that's the same as this guy, my new favorite guy, Gary Hazeltine, and he's a retired detective constable, is what they call it in Britain. And he started this thing called the police reporting UFO sightings. And then he just published this book that is pretty incredible book about Rendlesham Forest, right? And he did these extensive interviews I was talking about, you know, he's over there in Britain, he's calling over talking to these army guys who are on the base in 1980 when Rendlesham happened and they're telling them like all this new information that completely confirms all the old information we know about Rendlesham is that it happened and there was a craft and it cut through the trees and you can see where the trees were cut in half and you can see the marks, the trace marks on the end. And then you got another guy who says, yeah, the bunch of people simultaneously reported that they flew over the nuclear weapons that were secretly there that no one knew about and they deactivated them and then they reactivated them and it totally confirms with what Robert Hastings reported on for 40 years of interactions we've had with ET that's done this. So my point is I don't know how you thread that, Marty, and maybe you'll tell me. I don't know how you say, okay, well, that's real, but then somehow in some way it's not real unless you want to go full bore simulation, nothing can be really counted on. We don't even know if we're here, if we exist or if it's all a time slip or all the rest of that. No, no, I'm not talking about simulation theory. In other words, we have to think big. What capabilities could be achieved? At one time, the idea of being able to send a fax to the other side of the world would have been science fiction. The idea that you could send a file that could be printed out on a three-dimensional printer on the other side of the planet would be far outside the realm of reality, not that long ago. So let me give some examples. Absolutely, the Rendersham Forest craft was real. What it was exactly we don't know, but that it was a physical reality, I would not argue against that. In other words, burrows and they physically touched it. It was there. What it was could be debated, but there are many interesting aspects to that. The binary code thing that was supposedly transmitted, that's part of this consciousness thing, right? But to give an example of how just because you're seeing a physical triangular craft doesn't necessarily mean that it traveled here from another planet. In 1211, in Jervais of Tilbury tells the story, and this is in Valais Wonders in the Sky, a ship, a cloud ship has its anchor lodged in stones and a church full of people ran out and saw an entity come down the rope trying to dislodge the anchor and he's captured and he subsequently died and was given a Christian burial. Then in 1250 in Ireland, another cloud ship has an anchor that hooks on an arch of a church and a beam comes down the rope and cuts it and they keep the anchor and the anchor is on display to commemorate the event in the church. There was one in Texas. There was one in London, England. These things by the records have happened. So if we're going to take the Rendlesham craft as a literal triangular craft from an extraterrestrial planet somewhere in the universe, are we suggesting also that these were sailing ships with masks and all this coming here and using anchors and everything? In other words, we're taking it at face value that way and I don't think we should be taking it at face value. The phenomenon is far stranger than that when we really start getting into it. With you right up to the end, then you say it's far stranger than we don't know that because we don't know what the problem with saying the phenomenon and being inclusive of a lot of different things. We don't know the things that constitute the things we're talking about. So it could be and I know you're not against this. This is more a methodology. What we're exploring is the methodology for how to sift through this stuff. I would suggest that UFOs from another planet inhabited by intelligent operators of those craft should be on the table because it's kind of a parsimony thing. It's kind of an Occam's razor thing. Rendlesham Forest does not fit with what you're saying because it's 1980. We did not have advanced technology. You know the definitive book on monster trucks and on monster truck technology we should point out. You get all this praise for it because it's like the definitive book. If you want to go back and understand how they made this modification so it could do this trick and then how it made this modification and who came up with it, you trace that back. That is a direct parallel with UFO thing. We cannot create that trail back from 1980 and show how that technology could possibly be. Okay but again you have to view not just a certain section of the wall. We got to start also considering similar events that might be interpreted different ways. Like there are many instances where we have multiple witnesses to an event who each describe what they observed in radically different ways and we're not suggesting that these are not actually physically there. A lot of times these things were tracked on radar or anything but there could be more than one thing going on there in terms of our ability to perceive what is actually being represented there as well as active manipulation of our perception to where we perceive it in a certain way. Each person kind of perceives it within their realm of understanding possibly. Do we have the opposite in this case? No, no, no. Every guy has a no. He comes and talks to, says it's the same. Right but the, Noel, no not exactly. There are some discrepancies between what some people describe in others. The Burroughs and Peniston who actually were at the craft do more or less agree on what they saw and their experiences were a little bit different. Burroughs had physical effects and the craft was there and I'm not arguing that this was not necessarily human tech and when we discussed this the other day like and because again I plugged this into like a historical framework and I go okay. In 1976 we had the Tehran-Iran UFO that sat over the city. Jets were dispatched to intercept. The thing toyed with them. It locked their weapons and it was impervious to attack. It sat there and mocked them. Two years or three years later we have the Iran hostage crisis and we can't do anything about it. We send Operation Eagle Claw in 1990 and it fails so we resort to Wiley Coyote technology and strap rockets to a C-130 with a credible operation, credible sport. In other words it clearly it cost Carter his re-election chances so clearly if we had the technology we knew where they were. We even the remote viewers played a role in this and we knew where the hostages were being held but we didn't have the ability to get them out. We did not have the technology to do it so I think that that is a reasonable again parsimmonious way to look at this and go it seems unlikely that we had the technology that's being displayed by craft such as what we see in Randall's but again just because it's a physical craft even let's let's agree that it's a triangular physical craft on on tripod legs that lands and leaves physical trace cases trace evidence on the ground. In other words I don't think you're quite understanding when I say that it doesn't have to necessarily travel here from another planet for it to be a physical representation here because there are many ways this could be achieved in other words theoretically we may we can conceive of the ability to through various means fabricate like manipulate it's almost like alchemical an alchemical process to fabricate a physical object from from the ether in us in a remote location so we don't actually have to travel there we can send effectively like the blueprints to a craft to a physical place we don't in words instantaneously rather than sending because we sometimes the idea of space travel is oversimplified like we think that oh if we if we discover the ability to create anti-gravity or we build more powerful rockets that's going to automatically grant us the ability to explore the universe like no it's not that's only like the first minute step in that we still have to solve communication problems control problems navigational problems how do you not hit the hit the go button and not instantaneously vaporize when you run into the next asteroid or plan in words there's all sorts of problems we greatly oversimplify that it seems to me that by using other means of exploring the universe using the next level ideas not not just a evolution of what we already know just revolutionary ideas something far more advanced than what we're capable of at this point well and that's not count also the other ability is what potential is that this is coming from outside of our three-dimensional or you know four-dimensional if you include time space that this might be something that is we're sharing an environment with and it it has may have the ability to reach into our reality or effectively flatten create a flattened out object from its perspective that can be in introduced into our three-dimensional realm and out in words there are so many other ways that this could be achieved we can't just say oh it's it's a triangular craft it must have come from another planet it's i think it's a little bit more complex i think we've been entrained to think that way uh simulation hypothesis why are you throwing that out that's not that's not well wait see that's my point i just caught you right there right it's like no what we're what we're trying to do and this is the methodology that i think we're trying to reveal is or we're trying to exercise between the two of us is how you would go about that and i'm pushing back because i'm totally on board with your initial what you've painted in our head of the 3d diagram where you're plotting all the things you know which is kind of like a jack valet kind of thing which i won't play another clip but listen to what jack valet is saying nowadays about government uh okay i can't resist playing i'm very hopeful i think it's a new phase i'm very grateful to be here to see it and you know to be in reasonably good health to continue my work and hopefully to exchange data with uh you know if called upon with people who are running those those new projects and as you know i've been working with them all along and we know each other and so on but the government has its own structure and its own need to do things in a certain way especially when you're talking about the pentagon so i'm it's it's a fair phase you know i roughly you know it's not formal but i roughly organized my history into three major phases you know from 1945 to the conden report we in in 67 68 we have mainly the air force taking an interest in this the air force was charged with the responsibility to follow the reports to gather them but they took reports from the public as well as reports from their own pilots of other branches of government like the navy thanks for hanging with me i'm going to trim that down a little bit but like we got to have this discussion marty like only you and i can have this discussion what he's saying completely contradicts where you had taken him with the phenomenon and you're right he's wrong he's i don't know what his game is i don't know why he's saying you know three phases conden report the conden report need we be remembered the conden report is a disinformation campaign it came out and said hey we got it all covered guys there's nothing here to look at and this goes back to the very first thing we had with white seat not saying it's this or it's that or like you said you know we'd have to compare it with elves and ships that leave anchors he'd know no he's saying no they got it completely wrapped up the conden report does they got the reports from the navy guys in the air force guys and this is what it is that is a direct contradiction to everything jack valet has always been about he's now saying trust the government trust the government they'll tell us what we need to know when we need to know it this is not your 3d diagram that you were talking about that he was talking about that says there's a lot of weird stuff that we have to consider and some of it might fall into this category and some of it might look like what alex is talking about with these UFOs that fly in from other stars that have been identified by ancient people for as long as we could and they said they came from that star system and by the way it's a twin star system and no one knows it's a twin star system until a hundred years later when we get the telescope to say it to me all that's evidence that some of that some of these cases are UFOs coming from other planets and doing all that stuff but where the next level conversation I have with you is I'm totally down with what you're saying too that is mixed up with interdimensional demonic all these other things that have to be sorted out again in this diagram that you're drawing for us this where you're charting it both on time and complexity and all the other scales you have but that's for the average person to listen to Jacques valet they're not hearing what I'm hearing and I don't know if they're hearing it are you hearing what I'm hearing I mean I I've listened to a lot of his interviews and I have come to recognize that there are almost like two Jacques valet's his persona in his books is completely different than in interviews he is always much more cautious and much more toting the party line the sri party line when he's doing interviews he's very for example in in that particular interview with Jeffrey Mishlove he goes into some detail or into great lengths discussing a document that he discovered in J. Allen Hynek's files but he doesn't really tell you what the document actually said he's saying I had concerns about this but he doesn't ever say what his concerns were or the providence of that document and I can tell you what it was it was the pentacle memo written by Howard Cross who was the head of the shape memory metal program at Bethel Memorial Institute where allegedly the debris from Roswell ended up and through that uh was the development of shape memory metal known as Night Knoll Elroy Center was a scientist a metallurgist that worked under under Cross at Bethel who before dying claimed that he worked on a reverse engineering program at Bethel reverse engineering material from the Roswell crash buddy how does this not contradict what you're just saying about rendition again it it can be physical material I'm not arguing that it's physical material it is physical material tangible physical material but how it enters into our realm is where or where it originates from is where there may be some it may not be cut as cut and dry as flying from maybe but can't we put that can't we put that aside for a second oh yeah and and I mean there there are many that's why I say this is so complex to to try to just narrow it down to something really simple I don't think it's and where it's like for example part of part of that pentacle memo was the what what concern uh ballet about it was that this was a letter written to to try to stop the Robertson panel from occurring he didn't want the the Robertson panel to meet the CIA for those that are on the panel that the CIA convened in 1953 52 that was looking into the UFO UFO phenomenon we're looking into it I mean what were they really doing well they were establishing policies to discredit witnesses and infiltrate all the UFO organizations all right that's what resulted from it but the reason that but that that cross was trying to stop this was because he was in the midst of their own project start their own investigation and they hadn't reached any conclusions yet we didn't come to find this out from a very long time afterwards but they're the ones that prepared spent but blue book special report number 14 where 23 of the sightings were unexplainable and that's a whole other conversation that ties into the the the current congressional hearing stuff of how that was really a complete rehash of that you know but we also come to find out that there were programs during world war two that were already researching the foo fighter phenomenon or anything this has been this there's a long dark unknown history to this that you know the idea that the UFO phenomenon started in 2004 with the Nimitz case is ridiculous and that's this narrative that we're being entrained to to fall for and to me it's it's it's I believe that it could be a red herring they're trying to get us all completely vested in the Nimitz tic-tac thing to then all of a sudden pull a rug out from under us and say okay it really is Lockheed developed a secret technology that we've been withholding and there was no such thing as UFOs well you know I mean that's yeah that's what you're already you're all over the board man I've got to try and pull pull you in because you are not all over the board you were just we're having this conversation that is this level three conversation and it drives people nuts and I want it to kind of not drive well it is but like here's the thing that I'm trying to pull out and I love this because as I offered up at the beginning you know think about it who else is going to have this kind of conversation with you who's going to be able to pull in all those different things I just don't see it and what I'm kind of pointing out with these clips which I think is I hope people appreciate that it's like you can't get it from Jacques Valet but you should be able to he's a freaking genius and he's been in this thing forever and he knows 10 times more than you and I have forgotten right but he ain't going to give it to you straight he can't read his books and you'll get more and for much better maybe you will or maybe you won't I don't know about you but I don't like people when you say read my book but when you talk to me I say something else and I don't beat I'm not that way you're not that way you don't I don't find you know other things that you've written that you know I can't pin you down and say how come this doesn't match this and and you give me a straight answer so and that's what I'm saying like that's when we started off this thing with Joe Rogan and we didn't even get in the Joe Rogan the Bible is our thing it's like you know why are you duped why are you so easily duped why was everyone so easily duped all of this is a part of this process of finding out who we can trust and why we can trust them and that's why I do come back to kind of the the Rendlesham forest thing I think you're too quick to go this level three thing where it's like hey maybe all this material is manifesting in a way that is beyond what we understand because fundamentally consciousness is fundamental and all the material comes out of that hey great but as the conversation we're having over zoom into this electromagnetic field that we're in that would be so far out of it that don't we need to kind of put some barriers down and say okay all that's possible we don't know and the ship with the anchor may be possible and the demonic stuff definitely may be possible but let's narrow our focus here and say this seems to be going on because one of my frustrations and it's a frustration I have with brothers of the serpent but it's really not Russ and Kyle but it's like there's a ton of people that are really really quick to jump into the anything but a UFO kind of thing anything but that triangular shaped craft that crashed through those crashed through the forest landed there had a physical experience shined lights three days in a row went over the nuclear things anything but that has to be at play because it doesn't fit into my thing it's like you know when you hear Randall Carlson right again genius love the guy love what he brings to the table but when he gets the UFO he's like no it's not it's not what you think it's not what you think well if it's not what you think that's fine but tell me what the fuck was in rendition forest because what you're not thinking your explanation for what it's not does not fit the observed thing that happened there well that sort of illustrates my hesitance to rely too much on like contemporary and I guess it's hard to say that 80s is contemporary for most people but when we get into the more contemporary site like definitely will by the time we get into the tic-tac stuff is that it is we don't have a clear picture of the technological background to what we might be seeing in other words technology tends to be at least military technology tends to be 20 to 30 years in advance of public awareness but when we go back to the 80s we have a decent idea of the things that were being worked on in the 60s and 70s but maybe not completely because for example I mean the SR 71 being you know still to this day still touted as being the fastest air you know aircraft ever built and we know that thing was built with slide rules we don't really know what they were working on in the 70s and you know that thing was was retired in the 90s and we you know there's no telling there's no telling what the true level of state of the art is today but if you gotta take a stab at it no that that rendition forest thing was not us and it wasn't the Russians again it's unlikely because of again other other cases that we see well why wasn't this technology used here and I'm very much aware of the silver bullet theory where we have certain technologies that we hold in our back pocket for when we need them but we don't use them unless it's absolutely I think I would say that the around houseage crisis was a pretty significant case incident where we were going to use every tool in our disposal our disposal to try to rescue those people so if we had the ability to go in there with anti-gravity craft or whatever to extract those people I think we would have used it most likely so again I don't believe that the rendition object was man-made I don't believe that but but there are other reasons also that add to why I don't believe that are you are you familiar with and I don't know a whole lot about it I've read parts of the book but the information transmission that that Jim Penison received I mean I've seen some images yeah yeah I mean it's very close encounters of the third kind you know Spielberg thing where he's getting these messages and he's got to write them down and he gets this binary code that he didn't even recognize as being binary why would you get binary code I mean it's another yeah that's very human this okay like craft with wings you know UFOs with wings and like wings are human technology we need them to fly in our atmosphere an alien that has developed this anti-gravity technology or means to somehow leap from one point in time and space to another isn't going to need wings necessarily right that's our but again these are very possibly things that are more a function of our perception they may not be exactly the way we perceive them to be maybe in some cases though I think you come up down a little bit too strong on that as an explanation and its explanatory power is very limited I think that's my push back on you is to say hey you know it could be you know deception well possibly I guess you know and part of my sensitivity in this is because I spent so much time with the consciousness thing and like the near-death experience thing or the reincarnation science you know that's come through and you hear the same thing the way I always put it is burden of proof is that that's all we're ever doing is we're just shifting the burden of proof from one to another so like I'm saying that the rendition forest case to me that kind of thing shifts the burden of proof if you want to say it's not as it appears then that's fine but the burden of proof is on you because for the rest of us it looks like a freaking UFO from another planet who came down here and did something with the nukes which I always remember this conversation I had by email with Robert Hastings was a fantastically interesting guy and did all the research on the UFOs and nukes thing and I said uh hey you know what do you think is the agenda he goes I used to think that ET is trying to protect us he's trying to send us a message you know don't destroy your planet guys you are the precious guy you think he doesn't know I think it's more of a mutual interest kind of thing and I thought I thought that was curious but I'll stick with the burden of proof is on someone to tell that story in a different way and provide the same measure of evidence that Hazeltine is providing yeah but the perception thing is real I mean we can take even in case for example like the Hudson Valley flap where we had well over 8000 witnesses to this phenomena this giant triangular craft but there were cases there were instances where we had simultaneous witnesses standing side by side looking at the object describing it in different ways and I'll go to one that an interview that you've conducted Ray Hernandez Ray comes down into the living room and is there's this glowing object in his living room and his wife sees an angel and he sees a U shaped glowing object that somehow had an effect on him that made him think oh that's bullshit he turns around goes back to bed and wakes up 30 minutes later goes what the hell was that and runs back down he realized so there's a lot going on there their perceptions were different somehow or another it it affected his reason and where's again and then subsequent to that he's getting messages go outside and look and there's a craft over his there's an interaction there it's it's you know as it's there's more going on than just these things flying around in the sky granted but we have the same problem with near-death experience research and I think this is a part that we've really connected and maybe we'll do another one of these because we're kind of running out of time and we can get into that spiritual dimension because it's really important it's fundamentally important to factor into this even if we don't see it exactly the same way it's the next conversation that needs to happen needs to occur and that's that man this is the debunker approach to near-death experience they'll say yeah but that guy saw Jesus I mean and Jesus you know historical Jesus isn't real for whatever reason whatever or they'll they'll pick out some other part of these differences in these accounts and what what this relates back to something you said at the beginning patterns start to emerge and those patterns are really what scientists are all about scientists are totally capable of kind of saying okay I'm going to filter out this part of the observation and I'm going to focus on this part of it to get to that signal noise thing and that's okay I can do that that's a scientific way of doing that that's where I think you wind up with near-death experience at the end of the day you go okay well this person experiences this person experiences it's different but wait a minute what about these similarities what about this ability to recall what about bringing into a hospital and ask him to recount their resuscitation and they're able to do it in a statistically significant way let's do the next one let's do the next one there is a way to identify these patterns let me ask you this as we wrap it up since that was your thing and I think it's it's it's a very insightful point Marty what are the patterns that you do see more in terms of trying to tie this thing down well one one thing and I know that because this is this is your wheelhouse so I'm going to mention this and I think that this is important and yeah this is this you're I'm trying to distill like a lot of information down to something in just a few words which is really hard for me I'm tend to over explain things but trying to to view this phenomenon by ignoring or filtering out certain certain part aspects of it is sort of like you're trying to to study music theory and you're trying to learn everything about music theory strictly listening to hip-hop you can't truly have an understanding if by by exception you can't in words the the that that's one of the points that Heineck made was that he came to recognize once he jumped jump ship and actually started believing that there really was something to this he very quickly realized that the high what he referred to as the high strangeness cases were being filtered out and that that might be more there might be more to learn about the phenomenon from the high strangeness cases than from the lights in the sky type observations so having said that I think that when you look at encounters such as that of one like Juan Perez and that you'll start to see this overlap with this NDE consciousness realm so I won't I would not discount the possibility that that the phenomenon originates on a plane where consciousness resides or where consciousness can travel to or this other plane that it could because and I'm you know a lot of these stories that I'm I'm trying to not bring up but things like the experiences Joe McMonicle has had experiences with this in words there's a lot of overlap there and we can't simply ignore that there's this overlap maybe telling us more than focusing on oh there was a triangular ship what can we learn from the triangle like that's not going to tell you anything we need to understand where this is coming from see what we're gonna we're gonna tip our hand maybe we should we're going to preview this next conversation about the spiritual because I think it's problematic in the same way that we're talking about here and that's that ultimately the question of near-death experience in my opinion comes down to the question of the moral imperative is there right and wrong is there good is there God you know we're afraid to say that but is there God and that's really what we want to know we want to know is our soul really with us are we carrying it forward in this journey we're having as we've been told by so many different traditions I would say that overwhelmingly the data collectively that's what the data comes back and says and it's confirmed by the near-death experience science objectively looking at it it's confirmed by the shared death experience where people don't even die but go along with person who do die and come back and have this it's the reincarnation research points that way the after-death communication research points that way over and over again so to focus on the deceptive element that are in these realms of consciousness is to me a sidetrack kind of thing I always boil it down to this question does ET have an NDE and what that means to me is there is this kind of life review and the key thing about this life review would people say is I now realized I was not being judged I was the judge my soul was the judge the whole question about ET can be summed up if ET is in that same mode if ET is going to have to judge their ET soul journey then I'm cool with it everything can be worked out all the questions we have become simplified to a great degree if not then I think we're at another thing we're in simulation theory or we're in some kind of gnostic battle between good and evil and as Sammy Davis Jr said hey man Satan's just as powerful as God Sammy the evidence doesn't point that way but if you're right we got a different game to kind of play out here yeah absolutely that that see that I think is is part of the problem that I'm the heart it's at the heart of the matter that I'm trying to get it when you discount that when you start to to discount the the interaction with with past relatives and and the personal connection that some times occurs during these alien encounters and the messaging and the things that they're completely in line with these NDE experiences and these remote viewing experiences and you know OBEs all these things there there's appears to be consistency in this and I don't think it serves us well to to segregate them and say okay this is this and this is this and when they act the same they they appear to you know you know this like Joe McMonagle having a conversation because very often just to get maybe some I don't know where this but very often the the you know OBE or the NDE uh experiencer meets entities very similar to people on ayahuasca or having these you know mushrooms and this kind of stuff they're going back to park these entities that they encounter and stuff thus they're very similar and the things that they communicate are very similar and and it ties to this you know the aliens are looking out for us type thing where you know you the or you you know are you angels yes we're angels oh are you here to save us yes we're here to the path of least resistant stuff you know you can't get a really good understanding without walking that wall you got to walk past that section of wall it may tell you something very important that to me then the physical nuts and bolts craft if if that's what they really are is not what's most fundamentally important for mankind for our human experience these things are the things that are important they're we tend to when we start talking about that aspect you know the angel and demon and that kind of stuff related to the UFO from we go oh you're you're you know you're associating UFOs with religion like no that's a mischaracterization religions are associated with UFOs in other words every virtually every religion came about as a result of an encounter some form of encounter with some non-human intelligence you can't make it into the religion and then oh well and then it's associated with your foot this the other way around you have to understand how these things came to be and and this is a whole another conversation for another probably another we're going to have to get into but that's huge that gets into the ancient aliens thing and all sorts of aspects of this that there's just so much there to pick apart absolutely when you come back so we can hash that out sure anytime yeah all right marty it's been awesome so tell folks what you're up to you guys are working on some great shows those serpent boys are keep pulling you in for more and more great content that you're putting out and you got this whole mk ultra thing that you're working on tip your hand a little bit tell us what we're going to find over there yeah we're working on this series right now and brothers and serpent that called the spookiest story never told we've done one part so far there are at least three more episodes depending on how much detail i find that i end up having to do a lot of editing for to be a little more concise if that's even it's kind of like an oxymoron but in order to understand the historical progression of some of these technologies and abilities and the overlaps and it gets very again very complicated because there are a lot of overlaps between these technologies whether they're you know human technologies or non-human technologies and things like that but we have a lot of data coming up that i think people might find really interesting and you know it's really cool our interaction i think is what makes it really like our conversation here it's not just the data that we're discussing that that's being presented it's the interaction the conversations that we have about that data that make it most interesting oh yeah it's it's great it's just really really great it's entertaining but it's also extremely informative i'm a huge fan so i'm right there with you but this has been great and we'll do it again thanks for having me on i loved it thanks again to marty garza for joining me today on skeptico the one question it up from this interview is the title of the show is et satanic in all the ways that might obfuscate or clarify this question let me know let me hear from you until next time take care bye for now