 I hope that's like the candy. It looks like we are live. Hello, everyone. Thank you for tuning in to hear from a great group of executives on our panel today. In case you are wondering if you are in the right room, we will be discussing why open source contribution is essential for business. But before we get started, I'd like to give a giant shout out to Heather Rocker and Carrie Lucina for a quick thinking and some tireless planning that has allowed us to all be here today. I'm incredibly excited to see people here from all over the world. This DrupalCon is truly global. My name is Emily White and I run marketing for phase two. Phase two has really been entrenched in this community for a long time building digital products on open technology for almost 20 years now. So you can imagine how honored I am to host these leaders today. We all understand that contribution is a key to accelerating Drupal and other open source projects and millions of sites use Drupal, but yet only hundreds of them actually actively contribute. So the reason why we brought folks here today, this panel is really designed to help us understand the common barriers to contribution, why a contribution culture is good for business and inspire us with some new ideas to walk away with. So if you have any questions for this panel, please add them in the chat. We'll be answering as many as we can. We don't get to your question before time is up today. We will follow up and reach out individually. So I'd love to introduce you to our esteemed panel we have today. So this hour you get to learn from Derek Gilmore from Pegasystems, Deb Bryant from Red Hat, Nikhil Dashbande from the state of Georgia and Guy Martin from Oasis. So panelists, thank you for joining us. I think Deborah will probably hop back on. She's having some thunderstorms. So hopefully she gets back to it soon. Panelists, I'm going to ask each of you to give us a quick intro for the group. Tell us a little bit about how your organization contributes to open source projects. So I'm going to pick somebody. Let's go ahead and start with Guy. No, why don't you kick us off? Awesome. Thanks, Emily. Hi, everybody. My name is Guy Martin. I'm the executive director for Oasis Open, which is a standards development organization that also has a strong open source component. I've been in the open source world for quite a while. I spent some time helping Red Hat do strategic open source consulting, and I've started several open source program offices at places like Samsung and most recently at Autodesk. And I think where we've done a lot of contributions in those organizations that I've been a part of, but I think what's been most interesting to me in the five months I've been at Oasis is that Oasis doesn't contribute directly to open source, but we're an enabler of open source contributions. We have a thing called our Open Projects Initiative, which is really about bringing open source projects in and hosting them in a traditional way that a foundation would, but also giving them an easy path to disure a standards recognition. Because I think what's interesting is that it's kind of a little bit of a back to the future thing. Every thing that we're relying on here as the panel to actually be part of this conference is based on open standards that also have open reference implementation. So things like HTTP, et cetera. So I'm really excited to be here. And so I think our friend, Derek, is going to also give his introduction and kick us off. Thanks, Guy. I'm Derek Gilmore, Senior Director of Web Architecture for PEGA Systems in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I lead the digital team at PEGA. Been there for five years. We have a team of about 30 people globally. We have people in Cambridge, Poland and over in India. When I started five years ago, we had two people on the team. We've built it out to a fairly large team. We use Drupal for all of our public facing websites and also for internal portal and also sales enablement websites. We have, I think about nine different properties that are using Drupal in the organization. PEGA.com site gets, you know, millions of visitors a year, sometimes every month, depending on what time of the year it is towards, you know, PEGA world. In terms of our contributions to open source, a lot of the modules that we use, we get involved in maintaining patches and bugs, you know, fixing bugs and things like that. Our lead developers are very active in that. We also hold events at our company. PEGA has facilities for doing training. So we often do meetups at PEGA in Cambridge and we also do them in Krakow, Poland. We also sponsored Drupal camp in Poland. We've done that twice and put a big presence there. We've also done DrupalCon Europe. We've done birds of a feather sessions. I'm also pushing all of my developers to have an active presence on Drupal.org and pushing them to speak at conferences as part of their own career development path. We push all of our developers. Our head of HR came in as really pushing personal branding in terms of helping with recruiting. So when you talk about how do you help an organization, how does contributing to open source, people looking at recruiting talent and how do you find that talent? Well, you have to have presence within the Drupal community. When I first started with the company, our recruiters would reach out trying to find talent and they would say, you know, what's PEGA? How does it all fit together? But today, you know, people are like, oh, I know what PEGA does. I saw your lead developers speak about, you know, caching at DrupalCon Seattle. I saw this person speak about design systems. So the conversations are much more productive when we talk about having people come into organization. So finding Drupal talent or any tech talent and highly skilled tech talent these days is very, very difficult. So having a presence within the community is critical around that. And also when a, you know, when the rubber meets the road is around contributions because at the end of the day, it's like, you know, how deep are you into the community? So that becomes very important. And then we also want to get in, the big thing on the net horizon is try to helping people learn or new people get into Drupal. And how do we make that happen? So it's a little long-winded introduction, but that's kind of where we're at with Drupal and trying to help the community. That's awesome. Yeah, Nikhil, what's happening at the State of Georgia? Thanks, Emily. I'm Nikhil Deshpande. I'm the Chief Digital Officer with the State of Georgia. And I head the Office of Digital Services within the Georgia Technology Authority. So essentially our charter is to be the consultant slash partner for state agencies and elected officials to make sure service delivery happens in an effective efficient way. I guess we have been using Drupal for about the last 10 years. In 2010, we decided to move to Drupal. So we moved all the state websites around that time to Drupal. And ever since we've been growing our footprint and at this point we are happy to say within the state, Drupal is the official web hosting platform and content management system across agencies. And we have been an enabler for contributions for sure because our model is more around outsourced where we work with development partners and hosting partners. We have a very slim staff of mostly strategists in-house but we work with partners and we have a very strong inclination of partnering with partners who have a strong presence and history in contribution. And we always have had that charter in the last as many years as we have a Drupal presence. And for that we have certain guardrails in even partner selection in how we treat our projects and how we enable our development efforts to make sure that we always are looking at a contribution mindset. And although we ourselves as a state of Georgia though we have an account on D.do our kind of branded contribution might be very slim but through our vendor partners we are very happy to kind of be making sure that a lot of the stuff that has been developed for us for on our projects is developed with the mindset of being contributed by. It's great. Thanks, Nikhil. Well, I think Deborah started to hop on for a second and then fell back off but I'm sure she will hop in when she can. I do wanna address sort of what I've heard from the three of you. Obviously the reason you were chosen for this panel is cause you have sort of successful contribution type cultures from different angles, right? What have you seen out in the market as being barriers to this kind of culture? What have you seen as either within your own organizations as you were developing this culture or in the other organizations? Yeah, I mean, I think what I've seen in previous cultures and I won't mention names some may be able to figure out which ones I'm talking about based on my background but I think what I've seen sometimes is one of two barriers, either the legal team not being comfortable with it or the business leaders not being comfortable with it. And generally what I found is in partnering with legal teams, they will defer a lot to the business leaders. And so the way I've sort of tried to attack this and finding a way to make this happen is to go to the business leaders and have a very frank discussion about the fact that if you don't contribute, that's fine but there are consequences to not contributing. So I have a specific example from a previous organization that I was in that had G Streamer. We use G Streamer in our products and the team decided they were gonna fork G Streamer and have an internal fork that went on for a long, long time through multiple product lines. And then they ended up finally kind of coming to their senses a little bit and saying, hey, we fixed a couple of bugs we wanna contribute those back. Well, the problem at that point was that it was so far down the path the main line was so far down the path that those bugs had been fixed A and B there were certain like P1, 7, 1 bug fixes that needed to be brought back in. So at that point, you've now spent engineering resources this is what I told business leaders you've spent engineering resources and you're gonna have to spend more to bring the main line back in. So I said as an example, that's a great example of not doing it that way because you're actually gonna pay twice. So I said, figure out how you pay once in the sense of contributing back things that are non-differentiated IP and it's really important I think for business leaders to understand what is differentiated intellectual property and what is not differentiated intellectual property. So that's how I've sort of tried to address that with business leaders because generally the legal teams will follow the lead of the business leaders. Right, and I would add to that is where you have to be careful about how much customization. I agree 100% what Guy was saying you have to be careful that you've generalized your contributions because every company or organization has so many unique requirements they start making the spoke customizations or extensions or whatever they're doing to it and having to say, all right, we have to refactor this to actually make it applicable in a more generic sense. So that's a big challenge. And it's, you know, you're saying, okay, we have to make this generic enough so other people can use and you have business people pushing you to say, we have a problem to solve here. We don't care about anybody else. So that's realizing that there's a win by doing that. Great. The only thing I can add to that is just like, there is definitely this culture of alignment of having that mindset of contribution where, you know, people who are aligned with that you don't have to teach them to look at the forest for the trees. They know the big picture and the benefits. And thankfully within our organization I did not have to go and convince anyone about the importance of contribution largely because it's a lot of it falls within, you know, kind of like my domain, my purview. We were able to pretty much make that call by saying, you know, we choose to work with organizations that prioritize contributions. And then accordingly, you know, that just fosters the culture for like anything that we do after that. But, you know, truly kind of, if I were to equate it to something I would just be like, you know, the difference between planning sunflowers versus oaks is eventually it will grow. Eventually it will truly kind of benefit everyone. But being one of the first states to jump on the Drupal wagon and also one of the first states to truly kind of embrace open source for its enterprise platform. I have seen a lot of resistance only because I guess there was a lot of misinformation from some of the executives where having a dialogue, having a more, you know, kind of educational conversation truly helped in building that bridge. It's a good point. I would add that I think business people often have a hard time getting their head wrapped around the fact that you have to be involved with the community to truly understand some of the technical aspects of Drupal that you need to send your developers every year. I have to put, throw down the gauntlet of saying, you know what, I need a lot of people to go to DrupalCon or go to this event. And it's really not just to go there as a boot dog, it's actually to learn and train the people. So when they come back, they can hear that, oh, by the way, React is coming. We need to rethink our front end. And, you know, it's a real thing now. So that, you know, fortunately I've been very successful with that, but I have a very, very large team now and I can't send everybody to DrupalCon now because the team's so big, but they're getting people to understand the value of, you know, the training and learning and that that's how you, you know, are more efficient as an organization. So it's, in addition to contributions, you have to support your developers' training program and say, you know what, you need to go to DrupalCon to make sure you're up to speed in the latest and greatest with Drupal and using it properly and efficiently, I suppose. Because if you take a straight PHP person and they start coding and they're not trained, you can have problems. We all know that. So. For sure. Yeah. Guy, you mentioned like a couple of instances where there were barriers to entry. Have you experienced times where you've had to convince business leaders of the benefits of contributing to open source? And if you have, like, have there been specific key points that have really clicked in a business leaders' mindset to say, oh, this makes sense for my organization or either of you actually also, Derek or Nikhil, if you run into this, I've always been interested to see, like, what is the tipping point to say, I got it? You know, we talk about operational efficiencies and that sort of thing, but what is it that makes it click? Yeah, it's a great question, Emily. And also, I know there was a question that came in that actually sort of addresses this as well, which is that building your business value or the business needs you have into a piece of open source is really, really important, as opposed to necessarily waiting for the community to do that for you. So generally, that's one of the things, and I can use a specific example that is public, which is Samsung, which is when we started the Samsung open source group, the whole reason behind that, that whole open source program office was to make sure that Samsung had a seat at the table for really important projects that we were using at the time for products. And so I think that's a great way to address that with a business leader to say, hey, this open source project that we're relying on for our product, wouldn't you rather have a seat at the table around what the strategy in the future direction of that project is? The only way to do that, you can't buy your way into that. The only way to do that is to make good sustained contributions. So that investment from a business perspective makes a lot of sense because you not only help build something that, yes, you're in some cases enabling your competitors, but your competitors are also enabling you with the contributions they make. I think that's also one of the things that sometimes business leaders get their head sort of wrapped around and have an issue with this. Oh, I'm enabling my competitors. Well, yes, but your competitors are also enabling you. And if you're making those contributions, you as an organization have a seat at the table in terms of what the strategy for that open source project is going forward. Yep, so you can kind of direct the sales, right? That's nice. That's a good point. Derek, Minkiel, anything to add? I noticed a question in the chat someone was asking about how do we educate lecturers in higher education and teach students about the benefits of open source and contribution. It's not just free software. I think it's important for people to understand that open source software is not really free at the end of the day, the software in itself is free, but you need to have people who can help you maintain support, set it up. And there's a really good career opportunity for people to learn about open source technology there. So that's something that people understand that the potential salaries and opportunities, I mean, Drupal has changed my life financially. It's been a very worthwhile investment for the past 10 years. I'm glad I made the switch. And there's even, whether you're in Drupal or any type of enterprise or large scale content management system, there are fantastic career opportunities there. So I think that if people are, educators are trying to talk to students about investing time and learning about this technology, they need to point out, go on to Indeed and start looking at some of the salaries and career opportunities within organizations. There's, it's not just the coders. There's a whole group and ecosystem that's involved with touching these content management systems that it's, it runs a spectrum from designers to UX people to content editors to there's all kinds of job opportunities within this space. Derek, talk to us a little bit more about that about contributing past code, beyond the code. Are there other ways that people can get involved in this who are not developers? Yes, I mean, it's from writing documentation. I mean, I was involved and we had a meetup and we were going through how to set up an environment on Drupal 8 and I've done it myself many times and I was pulling my hair out and Benji, this guy Benji from Isavera and I sat down and actually rewrote some of the install instructions right there on the spot and said, we need to clean this up. So, and you don't have to be a technical user. You just have to be someone who can follow instructions and say, you know what, they're missing a step. They left this out. Let's write that down and put this on there. We'll make things easier for people and there's testing, there's documentation, there's UX improvements. There's also, if you run events at an organization, an onsite event, there are people who have to coordinate all of those activities. You just don't say, hey, come on over and show up from publicizing the event to getting food to preserving the space. It's just all the logistics to make that happen. These things don't magically happen. So all different types of people from the team can be involved and they don't have to be hardcore Drupal developers to be extremely helpful. One of my dev managers in Poland, I mean, it's about making phone calls and reaching out to other agency people and cooperating and say, hey, you know what? We should be teaming up on this and working collaboratively on things. So it's those kinds of things that make it happen. Great points. I can just add to that where, I think supporters of open source need to be more vocal than they have been. And I know all of us do our parts, but at one point I was not an open source native and I had to learn about it. And while we were in that decision chair of to go open source or not, the amount of, I guess, lobbying that happened from proprietary software and CMSs, there's no comparison because there was really, unless someone is personally invested in the concept of open source, it's very easy to get swayed by something that is just because end of the day, open source will cost you something, right? I mean, there's this whole free thing to what Derek was saying earlier is really not true. Like the word free is very heavily misinterpreted. It's not free pizza. It's free speech, right? So it's like the value is that we can actually make a difference when we use open source solutions. And yes, there is definitely a certain boundary where you can customize it to the point of no return or you could align with the community and see where everyone is going. But I guess the key here is just to kind of build that conversation because what I have seen, and of course, like 10 years ago, me being one of the state officials trying to pitch the idea that, hey, state of Georgia, let's go open source. Today it might be a lot easier sell than what it was back then, but it happened and then other states followed quite a bit. I mean, there were like a few states who were implementing open source for certain parts of their organizations, but as statewide open source solution. I think that really kind of needed that conversation to happen between stakeholders and between other organizations. And I think also having this, for the lack of any other term, this evangelizing community of this is the value of it without getting technical or without counting beans about it, the value of it, the big picture. I think that is also very important because end of the day, we are all in this together. And as what we can see, even though we are not using the exact same implementation of Drupal, but then every organization, we are still using the same product. So anything that we invest in automatically, other agencies benefit from it. I would just add there that those that may know Denise Cooper, who is very well known in the open source world, she has a great concept here around businesses that this is enlightened self-interest. This is not altruism, even though to your point, Nikhil, there's a lot of great things that happen from an altruistic standpoint, but this is enlightened self-interest. Businesses have a value that they gain from using these open source projects. And then contributing back, they also have a value to gain, part of which is also potentially, again, driving the project in a direction that's beneficial for them, as long as it's also beneficial for the rest of the community. So when I talk to business leaders, I actually use Denise's commentary about enlightened self-interest quite a bit because I think it gets past that whole, oh, we're just doing this for nice PR reasons or to be good people. We are, right? And there's obviously value you gain from that, but it is really an enlightened self-interest culture. Right, and I would also add that vendors or a lot of people are thinking about they don't want to have vendor lock when buying a commercial product. So if you look at the commercial CMS solutions out there, you're tied to their feature roadmaps when you want enhancements. If you want a very unusual or highly customized thing, you're gonna have to hire consultants within that proprietary system and they're as expensive, if not as more expensive than the open source consultants, usually more expensive because it's more of a rarity. I won't name names, but that's something that's on the table that we'll be able to think about that most of the time there is customization whether you're using open source or proprietary. And then you've got a situation where, all right, well, how much is this customization gonna cost? And then am I going to be locked in? I mean, an open source or maybe you may be able to switch to another open source solution if needed. So that's something that people need to take into consideration and why open source can be more beneficial in being going that path. Absolutely. Nikhil, you mentioned that people need to be a little bit more vocal about their involvement and their support in the community. You mentioned at the beginning when you were introducing yourself about the value of partners and vendors also being involved in this with you. So how are you sort of tying that contribution culture to partners and vendors that you work with? One of the things that I guess through the years we saw that open source being a culture obviously impacts how development partners, vendors also operate. And that defines the individual company cultures. And we have been particularly in our case very fortunate to be always partnered with someone that we enjoyed working with and in the most recent procurement that we had to go through, we made it a very clear point to only engage with vendors who had a clear track record of contributions. And when we stated that literally in our RFP as documented requirement, of course my phone would not stop ringing with request to take that off because and then also started seeing like some more contributions by some vendors, of course I'm not gonna name names were like before submission two weeks prior to there was like this token contribution and that was just glorified in the response. So the key is to yes, I mean, work with vendors that have that culture but also as a business have the appetite and plan for paying for that when your project is in development because requesting someone to have a contribution first development culture and then not planning for it when they actually do it on your project is not fair. So accept the fact that sometimes timelines may shift because they have to approach a certain development methodology in a way that it's kind of contribution focused. So that is also from a business perspective we kind of have to be ready for that. And that is something that we have done and we had some very strict criteria for contributions. We had strict criteria for development vendors whose primary revenues were from Drupal projects. So it kind of automatically disqualified a lot of the other prospects for us and truly got in the room, the real serious players within the space and of course with contributions to, I guess, Derek's point earlier. Yes, there was a way for us to kind of read what they have done from contributions but they also named their people who have almost kind of like a for the lack of any other term I'm gonna call a rap sheet of what the contributions have been in the past. So this is great. I mean, just sometimes looking at the names we can identify some of these rock star developers. So I think that really helps because end of the day is truly this open culture that we know who's playing in it, we know what they have done with it. So that just opens future possibilities for them. I would add another dimension to think about is that people who are contributing to the open source code have to clean up their acts in terms of the quality of the code that they write. So, Mikhail putting on there that I want a firm that contributes immediately is setting a bar that says, I want people who write high quality code because a lot of eyes looking on the code and there are a lot of people in the community who are looking at it and saying, no, no, no, this is not acceptable. You need to clean this up. And that is a big deal. I mean, anybody can write something fast and dirty and get it done to get the job done. But the question is, is it clean? Is it scalable? Is it secure? That's where the benefit of contributing to the community other people are looking at your code. There's security standards. That's a huge deal. That's in, if you want, quality code. That's why a lot of, you know, government organizations are running their sites on open source because there's a lot of eyes looking at it. And if a lot of eyes look at it, they're saying, oh, we got a hole in this. Let's plug that. Let's clean up the security on that. It's something that's quality is, you know, it's almost counterintuitive. You're like, oh, it's open, it's free. All these people are just messing with it. And it's like, no, there's actually a process for keeping the quality up. And that's a huge benefit to people who take the code to use it and also for contributing to it because there's standards around that. All right. Though the one thing I do want to point out, Derek, by the way, that's a fantastic point, but it's also really important that we talk, I think, maybe about sustainability in open source. And I don't know, Emily, it's probably I'm hijacking. Maybe it wasn't in your original questions. But to your point, Derek, I think that we really do need that sustainability and it's important that you have healthy communities around that, right? I mean, there's a reason why the Linux Foundation started at one point, the community core infrastructure initiative because you have certain open source projects that we all rely on, NTP, open SSL, that kind of had the opposite problem of what you're talking about, Derek, that they're being relied on, but there aren't a lot of eyes and there aren't a lot of contributions to them. And so that's why I think it's really, really important that we have healthy ecosystems and healthy communities. I mean, it's really kind of also kind of the flip side of when you're talking with business leaders around consuming open source. One of the things I've always told business leaders is that you should be thinking about not just the technical fitness of that code, right? Your engineers may say, hey, this is a great piece of code, but if you're auditing and looking at consuming that, if that open source community isn't healthy, if that's abandoned, pulling that in is just asking for trouble later on. So I think making sure that open source has a sustainable path and has folks that are making those contributions and those investments is important. Yeah, well, that's, I mean, you look at Drupal moving to GitHub and to Git and then you can look at a project history, you can look at the recent contributions, you can start seeing the health of things. So anything, that's what everybody's looking at these days. They're like, all right, when was the last contribution made to this module or this piece here? Who is the active contributor? So all of that comes in a play that it's this self-feeding thing and it can die on the vine too, just like you said, you find out something nobody's been working on that for two years and you have to decide, do I want to use this or not use this? Yep, it's something to consider. Sure, this is great conversation. I've already learned a lot. I think we can also take some questions from the crowd. We have quite a few in the queue here. We'll get to as many as we can. Thank you, gentlemen for sticking with us. We have a question from Samina Pereira and they said, how can open source software and applications compete with well-established market pioneers of paid software? And what strategy should a budding open source organization follow for success? That's a good one. That's a lot. That's a lot in there. That's a lot. Samina, complex question. You have to look at somebody, you have to talk to somebody and say, what's your end game? What's your, in terms of your budget, open source? I mean, you can look at the stuff that's going on with Amazon these days and all the tooling that they're putting out, they're putting out, I mean, you can literally start a company that has tens of millions of dollars with the technology and your fingertips with no investment. And that's all because they've open sourced or released all, and that's open source, put it out there for free essentially. So the question becomes what problems are you trying to solve? What's your business plan? What's the strategy? What market are you going after? There's so many opportunities out there with using whether it's open source or combining a service at AWS, for example, they have search right now with very search in the cloud that can be weaved into Drupal and you can do all sorts of crazy things with that and there's money to be made for people who can help set that up because it's not you plug it in but then how do you make it work right? How do you optimize that opportunity? I mean, this is the best time to be in the software business in my opinion that the tools that are at your disposal and platforms and services at your disposal if you have the talent, knowledge and ability and interest, it's disguised the limit. I mean, it's a great time. I mean, if you look back even 10 years ago it's we are so far ahead of the game today and look at like machine learning as a service. So let's plug that in and put AI on our search and make it better. I mean, that would have been a pipe dream 10 years ago. So there's a lot of stuff around that. I don't know, that's anyone else. I could go on for a while on this one. Anything else? We'll move on to the next question. That's good, great. All right, how can we as business leaders address the diversity, equity and inclusion concern that not everyone has free time to contribute? I asked the thoughts, but I've been talking a lot. So, Nikhil, do you want to... I'll pick on somebody, put somebody on the spot. No, I mean, definitely that is true and that is something that we have to consider that not everyone is fortunate with extra time. But I guess that's kind of like why it is important for the business leaders to have, create kind of like a setting in which you working on a project really could be considered something that you could be contributing to. It should not be like a weekend thing. It should not be something that you do your day job and then, right, because that truly puts a lot more load on someone. And if you're not really equipped with your time and you are bandwidth to do that, it is not fair. So I think that is truly something that organizations and business leaders across organizations really need to consider in their investment in open source contributions. Right, I mean, and to that point, Nikhil, I think it's really important, I'll use Samsung again as an example, because one of the goals of starting the Samsung open source group was to have people who are working on core open source projects on behalf of Samsung to get, again, that leadership. But that was part of their job, right? Essentially, that was their job. And even those people who didn't make contributions from our team, and as we mentored other developers inside of Samsung, it was figuring out how the open source project that we wanted them to contribute to aligned with their day job. Because then, at least you may still have issues with bandwidth and time, but at least if it's aligned, it's a lot easier sell to their boss and to the business leaders of why they should be making those contributions. Yeah, I mean, I would add it's up to the leaders within organizations as we said, create space. Open up people's calendars to allow them to invest time into this weekly, monthly, going to events. I can tell you that some of my team that's over in Poland, having them come to Amsterdam, some of them have never left Poland, and to drop into Amsterdam and to go to a DrupalCon and see the diversity there, some of it was mind blowing for some of these people there culturally and to see how diverse the Drupal community was. So I think encouraging people who within your teams to go to these different events, to giving them, to supporting that paying for them to attend. And I would also add that is an individual investing your own money if you can afford it. In these things, it's almost like your own education that this will pay back in your lifetime and in many ways over because you will increase your network of people you know within the community, which is the people who do invest their own personal time and effort into it on the weekends, in which I know most people don't have specific events. It comes back to them because you end up having a network of people and friends that turn off and turn into career opportunities because when we ask people in our Drupal team who to hire, the first thing I do is ask people in our team and they're reaching out to the people that they've worked with. So there's a whole social network around that. So getting involved and putting these people who do have the time and money are doing stuff even on their weekends, on their own personal time, just to invest that personal investment. But we do need, and I know we're also the Drupal organization trying to give people can afford it scholarships or whatever. I know that that's probably out there. There's some of that out there to help them out. Definitely. I think we have time for one more question and then we'll have to start to wrap it up. And I'm gonna take my personal favorite, which is how do I get started in either fostering a contribution culture or even as an individual in contributing to open source projects and the community? Any advice? I'm holding that. Guy, what are you, somebody goes to the front. I'm holding that. I'm like, not everyone at once. It's like, I've been talking. I'm trying to give everyone else a chance. I think a couple of things. One, finding a project that you're passionate about, hopefully one that aligns with what you're doing in your day job. And then just figuring out how you sort of make that business case to your management team about why that contribution is important. I've seen in organizations, people do side projects that are of interest to them. It's generally harder to get those through, I think, as far as doing those within the context of the business. And there's usually some conflict of interest, even if they're doing it on the side. So finding a project that you're passionate about that aligns with what your team is doing and then making that business case around that this isn't an extracurricular activity, that this is part of your job, and then this is an important part of your job. I would add, you need to look at putting up a dupal.org profile. If you haven't done that, you need to do that today. Step one. You need to put your organization's profile on there and tell your organization they need to have a profile. And then they need to contribute some money a little bit. Get the name out there, get the logo out there. And then, like you said, find a project that you want to work on. And also look at other people's profiles. Come to dupal, hold a dupal event locally. If you don't want, attend a dupal event locally. See what they're like. If you don't have one in your area, once we start all meeting, you go virtual right now, but then once we start COVID ends, we at some point, think about having one in your area. Miquel, parting words? Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of like, I'm looking at it from my developers, who have basically contributed. And this is someone who kind of sits along with us and our teams. And I think it's more about just having that conversation and just speaking to your supervisors or whoever it is that would assign you that bandwidth. And just always keep talking about the importance of it. And I mean, eventually they'll get it. I mean, I hope they do because that's really what I have seen. And it's a sense of accomplishment. And this is, of course, on top of everything that Guy and Derek have said, like you identify the project that you wanna support, you start contributing. And then slowly you just kind of, are part of the community, you build that network. And then truly that becomes like your family. And you can help, but then start building your network around you who can help you in that project. So it's a really good way of growing yourself as a developer. That is wonderful. So it's awesome to be walking away from this with three ways to start. Fill out your Drupal.org profile, get your company to do it. Find projects that align with your organization's vision and mission and goals and evangelize. Be vocal about what you're learning with others. So those are all three great points. And thank you three so much for being on this panel today. We learned a lot from you. So hope you all have a wonderful rest of your DrupalCon. Thank you audience who's been here. Hope you all learned as well. If you have any other questions, we will address them individually. Go ahead and put them in the chat or reach out to us here online. Thanks y'all. Thanks everybody. Have a great conference. Thank you. Have a great conference.