 Hi there, my name is Dan Logan. I work here at channel 17. Thanks for tuning in. I'm joined today by one of my lifelong friends and someone who has Stumbled their way into a pretty cool job Paul McLeod Reporter for Buzzfeed. Thanks for joining me. Hi Dan. It's great to be here. Yeah, so This is what I can pretty much is gonna be guaranteed the only episode of this show. Okay So we're drinking Cheers In case you haven't figured it out We're both Canadian. We're both now living Here in the States Paul's in DC and I'm in Vermont So I figured since I started working here and you happen to have a job that I'm interested In finding out more about other people might be as well So I've prepared a few questions for you. Okay, I figure we're gonna be catching up this week in any way We might as well share it with our viewership. Dan made this a condition of me being able to stay with him while I was visiting Vermont So here we are giving back to the community. So Paul. Um, yeah, despite all odds your job's pretty cool Mm-hmm. Talk me through a day in Washington reporting for Buzzfeed. What's what's it like? Oh My god, that's actually really tough to answer because it's so different depending on what's happening like The the cycle of news which would normally be you know, all right There's an issue of the day. Mm-hmm, and then we're gonna spend a few days kind of unpacking that and kind of like Exhausting it and then something else will develop That has been thrown out the window now with Trump where essentially it's kind of at this fever pitch all the time You've got you've got things that sometimes two or three stories throughout a day that will come out that normally would be like the story of the month and You don't even have time to pay attention to them because there's just something around the corner immediately afterwards I mean, he's always one tweet away from just people setting their hair on fire You know like he'll like we'll be we'll be talking about healthcare one day And then suddenly he'll start, you know tweeting at the leader of North Korea and everyone's like okay Is this a day that ends a nuclear war or? We're going here. So the answer is there's no day today. There's no day today. It's cool. It's totally crazy I mean usually I spent a lot of time on Congress Trying to like, you know talk to people track down senators You know figure out what's going on either in legislation or what's gonna happen? You know, we're both Canadians. So we're used to a much more calm system where you who first of all they actually passed legislation in the parliament in Canada, but it doesn't happen as much here and You know, I'm used to you introduce a bill and then that bill goes before committee study And then it gets debated and then it either fails or it passes And in the states, it's just not like that at all. It's it's comes out of nowhere You've got all of these competing issues that are battling and then it's basically all decided behind closed doors and then agreements are reached and then Bam within like 48 hours from like nothing being written down to a bill being like signed by the president It can happen that quickly. So you just can't like blink basically because It's gonna happen Speaking of shit happening. We have a call. Okay, great, which is kind of nuts. So we're gonna take that Let's see if I can figure this out. Okay No, I don't think so. I think they might be gone. No Yeah, they can call back. Please call back You actually kind of jumped into my second question there I'm hoping you can reflect for a minute on the differences that you've experienced in reporting in the Capitol in Canada versus the Capitol in the States because I imagine it's quite a far cry. It's so so so so different In ways that are better and worse I mean, I will say the one thing that is way more fun about political reporting in America So yeah, so I worked in Ottawa on on Parliament Hill for five years Americans are way more talkative than Canadians and it is great for being a reporter because you will have you can go up to Democrats and Republicans and have Them bash members of their own party in a way that you would never get in Canada. There's such a there's such a feeling of party Unity there like just as like a random example I remember going up to a Republican congressman when I was pretty new on the Hill and There was the Obamacare repeal debate was in full sort of the throws and then House Republicans were trying to figure out a bill And they were all conflicted And I saw this guy was walking into the Capitol and he was a few steps ahead of me So I kind of like jogged up and I was like, oh so and so You might remember my face. I'm like Paul McLeod with BuzzFeed news Can I ask you a little bit about you know, what's going on inside these meetings? And and he just looked at me. He's like, so was your name again. I like repeated He's like, okay. Yeah, sure And then just sort of telling me all kinds of stuff about like who's on what side and who's fighting with who and And like he this is a guy who like the sec It's like the second time we'd ever talked and is giving me all of this like, you know very frank descriptions of how his own party is divided and that kind of stuff doesn't really happen The flip side isn't Ottawa. It's like, I mean, it's a much more functional system and government in every way There's not bias or anything. No, but I'm not I'm not it's just it just it's like it's much more stable and it and it's it's It's much easier to like get things passed and to to govern in a parliamentary system by a while So we're gonna try this again. Okay Hi, can you hear me? Hi there Who's calling? Hi, Rob. How you doing? Not too bad at all. Do you have a question for Paul? Yes, I do. Oh fun Hi, Rob. All right, what do you got? Time to be covering Politics in the United States that are adopted by the I'm not even announced by how but sometimes minute by minute basis What kind of pressure does it put on a journalist to Sure what the actual story is well at the same time dedicating a second part is likely Cool. All right, thanks Rob. Thanks Rob. Um Yeah, well to answer the first part of the question it is I mean it almost feels like you're trying to like paddle back a tide when you talk about trying to fight the amounts of misinformation out there and What we will do is we'll do things like Uh, we'll put out stories that will actually be dedicated to like breaking down all of the spin or or lies or or misinformation out there And being like, well, here's what's really true about this issue and and with you know, try to cite things heavily so that we can give people a resource to Work with to to ground themselves on a factual basis And you know, we try to do that a lot in And our reporting where instead of just citing one side says this and one side says that to actually Be like no, but here's what's actually factually factually accurate. Here's what this bill really does And it often doesn't matter that there's there's so many people on both sides who It is more important about yeah as Rob said fighting that narrative battle that it doesn't Truth is just not it never enters into it to so many people um, so you kind of yeah, you kind of feel like you're you're like standing in the middle of Like a like a riot basically and you've got like a megaphone you're trying to get people like all right Let's all just sort this out as people are throwing rocks through windows Around you and then dystopian future. I think brave new world feels about right in terms of dystopian futures I would like to get more of a mad max vibe if we could Um, I think you know I'm on board with that. Yeah, exactly. I think we would do well In a mad max. I mean, we're not neither of us are our car guys, but I think I think I could like I could see you throwing a spear from a Window of a truck and that's someone else. Yeah, and yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah um Cool. Thanks for the call Rob. Um, I have a couple other somewhat related questions here Which ties into probably this dystopian future. We're we're talking about The political divide here the the partisanship is so So deep and I don't know about you but that is one of the biggest reckonings for me in moving here Is is seeing that it's Everything is a baseball game or a war or a football game like you're always moving the ball or always hitting home runs And everything's a competition between two teams in almost every single topic of discourse. Yeah How do you see that playing out in the next let's say five ten 20 years? and do you see any way of of repairing damages that are are very Clearly existent in in in american politics. Well, we yeah, we were talking about a bit about this yesterday. I think about how like there's not really any kind of sphere Or space for non partisanship in the american system because we're used to having things like A depoliticized judicial system a governor general who's a Those who don't know it's our our head of state. It's it's sort of our representative for the queen But it's it's having someone who is is not a political actor Uh, who's sort of like a referee even our speaker. There's actually even a better example Our speaker of the house is even though it is an elected politician. It's supposed to be a non partisan Um, uh, referee is probably a good way to put it. I mean, they're supposed to rule fairly They're supposed to act in a non-partisan way And then you look at it in the american system where the speaker who has all of this power becomes the ultimate political position because then You can as controlling the speaker chair you can block Any legislation from coming to the floor that the opposing party Wants to present in fact you can block you not only can but do ryan has done this has been basically the norm since the 90s Uh, this thing called the hashtag rule, which is basically you're only supposed to well supposed to it's completely bullshitting made up rule but The idea is that you only bring in legislation that is supported by the majority of the majority What that means is if there is a bipartisan piece of legislation that We'll say right now even though the house is about to change Now let's say a large amount of democrats and a minority of republicans would work together and it would easily pass with more than 50% of the house Paul ryan Would and does block this from ever going to a vote because it is not supported by a majority of the majority party It is it is I mean that is just a an open stated level of insane partisanship that is Well, I guess I should say it seems insane to us, but it's completely commonplace here. It's it's it's basically a norm um Yeah, I don't know how it gets any better because all of the entrenched interests are in continuing that fight and I mean there aren't many There there are so many there's there's so many there's so much money being made in reinforcing that too, right? Like if you have a radio station, do you want to and you want to make money? Do you want to cater to one side and get people riled up and angry so that they're tuning in to learn about who they How do they should get and get the other side? There's a lot of money in that or you can go down the middle and try to be an informative resource in this probably You're not gonna you're not going to become a billionaire campaign runs for donations from listeners. Yeah um Something pretty topical right now, and I think your insight on that would be um Would be quite interesting is the jimicosa situation and the cnn. Yeah Uh press pass being revoked And it's now becoming pretty clear that that is a doctored video Yes retweeted by the white house itself What the hell is that and how do you feel about that as a as a reporter? Yeah, I mean You you can't like you'll drive yourself crazy if you think about it too much because pretty clearly the It like it works I guess is you know this type of demonization of the media this type of calling them the enemy of the people I mean, this is the oldest trick in the book People have been doing this for for decades and decades and decades and it works I mean if there's this body that serves to keep you in check and call you on your bullshit Uh, you wanted you want people to tune them out and this is I mean, I I my own issues with jimicosa behavior I don't think that type of like some of the stuff he does is is helpful And I think it's sort of self aggrandizing but that's not a hearing or there like my personal views on it Like the guy is not going around karate chopping interns. Uh, the white house is treating out doctored videos sort of trying to Exaggerate like the movement of a hand to make it look like it was worse than it was. I mean like this is Combined with the rhetoric, um, it's just it's really disheartening and You you just kind of have to push through it because you know, it's there's no there's no Smoking mirrors here. It's all very apparent like anyone who wants to see what's happening can see what's happening So are you saying that there are people that just don't want to see what's happening? Is that kind of sure to take on the other side? Oh my god. Yeah, I mean the amount of people that like, uh, you know, we'll uh Truly believe that Um, you know cnn is taking its marches order marching orders from george soros. It's not even In in cases malicious like I've talked to people who have Flat out asked me in a in a non confrontational way just sort of like So like how do you guys get get your stories to like politicians? Like call you up and like feed them to you and you know, and I'd be like no no no no no And I would kind of explain Sort of how it worked that would be genuinely just interested and surprised um people just really do Because they're told so often that you know The politicians are the enemy of of trump or whoever it is that's saying it. Um, they just they just accept it as fact Uh speaking of politicians, um, you have some pretty Regular daily interactions with with many legislators senators. Uh, yes, who's your favorite? Who's my favorite? Yeah, who do you have like great interactions with who brightens your day when you see them in the halls? That's a really tough one. I will I'll how about this? I'll tell my story of the last time I talked to john mccain Um, who was always like super salty, but like reporters loved him because he just was He was like your angry grandfather like I don't know. He was very like And at the end there he uh He was in he was in a rough way like he he had uh some Like bandages on his face because he had had some stuff and and at the very end He broke his ankle or his leg and he was walking around in the cast and it was sad, you know, you saw him He sort of hobbled around he was still he was still going to vote still still doing his job I remember one time walking down a hall And he he came came around the other side of the uh this corner And so like we almost walked into each other We were just a couple feet away and I just saw him and he's there and he's got the cast and he's walking With this cane and everything and I just said to him like oh So I guess uh, I guess we're not gonna be playing soccer at lunch And he just like and he just like looked up at me and he just got the smile. He's like, oh, no, I'll see you out there I'll see you on the pitch. You know, you know, I'm veteran like you just like, oh, no, I'll see you out there He was great. I we we all miss him Is there is there someone um Is there someone that is more or less maligned by the press corps? Is there someone who's the opposite of that someone who is Or maybe even a group of people There are a lot So there's there are people that make it pretty tough to do your job that get the information to get out of them I think I think people sometimes um I was surprised when I when I got went there that some of the perceptions I had were totally backwards So especially when you look at like uh trump, for example, who is you know, very hostile towards the media I kind of thought that that would filter down and I thought there would be a general republicans are kind of hostile to the media and and that is is not true and in fact the Some of the the most like hardcore right-wing guys. I'm thinking of like the freedom caucus In in the house who are who are sort of the far right flank of the republican congress are the most open and talkative and responsive to press That they like mark meadows who's the chairman of it will like will stand there and take as many questions as you have for him And and they're they're really serious about it. Whereas on the other hand, you have people like People like elizabeth warren or uh who and frank I had bernie sand is a local guy They don't they don't talk to reporters too much when they're walking around in the in congress They just uh, they've just moved on I think they just have kind of decided there's nothing in it for them and They don't want to get caught up in some sort of like stumble of speech that will come back to haunt them in an attack Add a year from now and so that's why I have you on the show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah And so they just uh, yeah, they don't talk to us. So it's it's it's weird It's like there's no real rhyme or reason to it. It just it really is a person by person basis Uh, so you were in the room during the kavanaugh confirmation hearings Yeah, uh, I watched a lot of it. I was sure a lot of our viewers watched a lot of it as well. Um Talked me through that. How was that? It's tough. I imagine to be there Uh, we really thought that the nomination was going down at one point. Um, well During christine blasey ford's testimony Well, I guess I should that and then and then kavanaugh when he went up and and it was clearly not Like he was clearly losing control and and we were I was kind of sitting towards the back of the room And at one point he was he was leaving it was like it's the first break and he was walking out and you could see him just I don't know it kind of looked like he was kicking himself Like he was clearly not happy with how things were going and he was very like frustrated I think kind of at himself. I think I shouldn't psychoanalyze but but for my read was he looked like he was just like Mad that he kind of lost his cool and um And I just remember thinking like this is going terribly for him Like this like we might actually be witnessing a supreme court nomination going down which Obviously would have been historic. I mean it's historic either way And then it was uh, it was just fascinating To watch after that over the following week. So the next day Was he was supposed to be passed through committee and we thought okay, it's a done deal The republicans who were kind of on the fence have come out in support of it And then things got really weird when jeff senator jeff flake of arizona he Was was something was up and we were like what is what is going on? Why are they not just passing this nomination through really quickly and uh And it went for like an hour or were like they were clearly negotiating some sort of deal in the back room And no one knew what was going on that kind of chaotic environment I had only seen once before and that was during the obama care repeal where we thought that was going to happen And then john mckay like clearly like it took you a little bit of time to be like, oh my god Like they don't have the votes. What is happening here? And then and so then you know, there was another week and there was an fbi investigation And over that time you could you could just tell I guess the polling just turned against democrat that turned against I wouldn't say it turned against ford, but it turned in favor of cavin among republicans and you could see Trump get more emboldened and then by the end, you know, I mean I was just in florida Um For the midterms and you know, I was talking to some republican operatives there And they were saying that like the cavin thing helped them hugely that that they saw During that it turned uh men of a certain age, but also women who have young sons It turned them uh back towards republican party Because I guess in some way they thought well because after so after Ford there were the other um Accuses who came out and I mean and michael avanatti who's this like showboat lawyer who has dubious credibility was like was involved and and and people and and a lot of how it came out was really complicated You know for example like the the way the the first letter all came out like there was a huge amount of misinformation Actually back to your first point This is this is a story This is an issue where we actually put out a play by play of how it all became public because people were thinking when Diane feinstein leaked it to the press or tried to create this whole Um scandal and timed it perfectly like that is could not have been farther than the truth Diane feinstein's office was not the one so we're behind that so who was does anyone know? No, we were we were uh, we were one of the outlets that were chasing the letter we knew of the existence of the letter um Like we've said that our source of its existence was not a hill source Um, and I like happily confirmed It was not like diane feinstein's office would not talk to us and I knew other other outlets who were chasing it as well And then no one was getting anywhere And then what happened was the intercept put out a story on the existence of the letter and then Then once that was public feinstein's office kind of had to do something and they referred it to the RCMP to the FBI And uh, and then once that happened then everyone was writing about it and then like eventually, you know And then it was just a matter of time and then she and she ended up coming forward Ronan ferro, I believe I guess was the one who broke it um So I want to ask you about about buzzfeed itself. Um, okay Every media outlet And I think it ties into the the point we're making that everybody is partisan in the states There's there's a lean left or a lean right or a complete shuffle one direction or the other um Where would you put buzzfeed on on the spectrum? I'm guessing it's on the left side somewhere But my my more The thing I'm more interested to know from you is is where would you get your news? If you if you wanted to find like if in your opinion the most impartial the least partisan Outlets in the states. What would you recommend? Um, well, so I was actually asked the first question just a few days ago when I was down in florida and Uh, I would say the the weird thing about buzzfeed is that while we have some issues where we've been openly political on Gay marriage for example like the the stated position of the company at the time during that debate was like we are in favor of Of gay marriage. We're not going to be we're not we're treating this as a human rights issue. We're not treating this as like a Two sides like everyone's opinion is is the equally valid kind of issue. Um, and there's been some other things like that. Um But for the most part We actually play it very straight like we take a like kind of old school I don't know like new york times cnn kind of like Like impartial kind of approach the problem with buzzfeed is watching the problem Like the the inherent thing with buzzfeed is that we have a massive division that is not news Right that people like think is is conflate with our news division So sometimes things that will come out on the news on the non-news side Uh, uh, which might be like, I don't know some jokey thing about like obama or whatever Uh, which we have nothing to do with but it'll all get sort of wrapped up in that But in terms of uh, I mean I tried to read a lot of sources um in terms of in terms of federal Politics for like where I go outside of buzzfeed um The washington posts in the new york times are really good. I mean like the the amount of resources that those papers have and the deep investigations that they do it's it's uh Like they're they're really incredible. Um, i'm really happy that we have like robust uh newspapers still. Um, but uh, yeah There's a lot out there. I mean pro publicly does great stuff for for investigative reporting Um, I mean, yeah, like I think I think in a lot of places like, you know, the daily paper is still A good place to go to I say this as a newspaper person myself in the paper background, you know, but yeah Yeah, no, I like I don't know. I'm like I'm a post subscriber and really happy with it. Well Um, I have a couple a couple personal questions. Oh god. Yeah, let's do it. Take a drink. Okay. Um I did a little bit of digging I don't believe in the new york times style. I would say Roughly, um and uh into your fantasy, um for sports background And I printed out all 30 of the leagues you've ever been a part of and you've never finished higher than second. Um It's a lot of research that goes into fantasy sports and i'm just wondering if um, If you might consider using some of your buzzfeed, uh Lead chasing first of all to be better at first of all in our fantasy baseball league I once finished first in the regular season three years in a row and got robbed three years in a row in the playoffs And then in recent years, I've been busy and by about mid-season. I just Look So my next question for you who's um There's a lot of integrity. I think is needed. Um in terms of you wanted a minute to read it A lot of integrity required in the in the political field political reporting um But i'm still fairly convinced that as children you cheated when you played a risk So I wanted like a new platform. Um, you can address the viewers. There's probably like seven or eight of them I think my parents are tuning in and they'll be very interested to know Uh, if you're ready to really come to terms with what you did as a child I was still in paul. No, they've I look I've had enough friends with your parents in games They know my skill level look one time dan and I almost became not friends anymore Because I beat him at a risk game and he insisted that I had uh Interpreted a rule wrong and we had to look up the is that michael andries basement. We we looked up No, read the read the tv It's there, sorry We looked up the rules and I was vindicated. I was vindicated. You've never beat me at risk And uh, look you can you can win all the fantasy leagues you want When it gets when you take it outside of the internet Bring it down to the tactile realm. You can't beat me Paul thank you very much for joining me today. This was great. It's good to see you. Uh, thanks for visiting vermont And I hope next time we're here we can do this again. Uh, this is the best interview I've ever been a part of Thank you vermont