 Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. Welcome back to theCUBE. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer and happy to welcome to the program, fresh off the container keynote, Chris Hodge, who's the Senior Strategic Program Manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. Oh yeah, thanks for having me. All right, so short trip for you. Then John's coming from the Bay Area. I'm coming from the East Coast. You're coming up from Portland, which is where it was one of the attendees at the Portland OpenStack Summit. They said, OpenStack has arrived, the cube's there. So shout out to John Furrier and the team who were there early. I've been to all the North America ones since and you've been coming here for quite a while. It's now your job. I've been to every OpenStack Summit since then and to the San Francisco Summit prior to that. So that was, yeah, I've been a regular here. Okay, so for those people that might not know, what's a foundation member do these days other than you're working on some of the tech, you're giving keynotes, what's a day in the life? Yeah, well, I mean, for me, I feel like I'm really lucky because the OpenStack Foundation has kind of given me a lot of freedom to go interact with other communities and that's been one of my primary tasks is to go out and work with adjacent communities and really work with them to build integrations between OpenStack and right now, particularly Kubernetes and the other applications that are being hosted by the CNCF. Yeah, so I remember and I've mentioned it a few times this week, three years ago, we were sitting in the other side of the convention center with the cube and it was docker, docker, docker. The container sessions were overflowing and then like a year later it was, you know, oh my gosh, Kubernetes and this wave of, does one overtake the other? How do they fit together? And, you know, in the keynote yesterday and I'm sure your keynote today, talked a lot a bit about, you know, the various ways that things fit together because with open-source communities in general and tech overall, it's never, you know, binary, it's always, it depends and there's five different ways that you could put things together depending on your needs. So what are you seeing? I mean, it's almost, yeah, I mean, I mean, saying that it's one of the other and that one has to win and the other has to lose is actually kind of a, it's kind of silly because when we talk about Kubernetes and we talk about Docker, we're generally talking about applications and you know, and with Kubernetes, when you're very focused on the applications, you want to have existing infrastructure in place. I mean, this is what it's all about. People talk about, I'm going to run my Kubernetes applications on the cloud and the cloud is infrastructure. Well, OpenStack is infrastructure and in fact it is open-source, it's an open-source cloud and so for me it feels like it's a very natural match because you have your open application delivery system and then it integrates incredibly well with an open-source cloud and so, you know, whether you're looking for a public cloud running on OpenStack or you're hosting a private cloud, you know, to me it's a very natural pairing to say that you have OpenStack cloud, you have a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes and that the two work together. I think this year that became a lot clearer both in the keynotes and some of the sessions in the general conversation we've had with folks about the role of Kubernetes or an orchestration or the cloud layer, the application layer, the application deployment layer say, and the infrastructure, somebody's got to manage the compute, the network, the storage down here. At least in this architectural diagram with my hands. But you can also, a couple of the demos here showed deploying Kubernetes on bare metal alongside OpenStack with that as the provider. Can you talk a little about architectural pattern? It makes sense, I think, but then it, you know, it's a apparent contradiction. Wait a minute, so now that Kubernetes is on the bare metal? I'm gonna talk about that a little bit. So, but I think one of the ways that you can think about resolving the contradiction is OpenStack is a bunch of applications. When you go and you install OpenStack, we have all of these microservices that are some are user facing and some are controlling the architecture underneath, but they're applications and Kubernetes is well suited for application delivery. So, say that you're starting with bare metal. You're starting with a bare metal cloud, maybe managed by OpenStack. So you have OpenStack there at the bottom with Ironic and you're managing your bare metal, huh? Well, you could easily install Kubernetes on that and that would be at your infrastructure layer. So this isn't Kubernetes that you're giving to your users. It's not Kubernetes that you're making world facing. This is internally for your organization for managing your infrastructure. But you want OpenStack to provide that cloud infrastructure to all of your users. And since OpenStack is a big application with a lot of moving parts, Kubernetes actually becomes a very powerful tool or any other container orchestration scheme becomes a very powerful tool for saying that you drop OpenStack on top of that. And then all of a sudden you have a public cloud that's available for the users within your organization or you could be running a public cloud and providing those services for other people. And then suddenly that becomes a great platform for hosting Kubernetes applications on. And so the layers kind of interleave with one another. But even if you're not interested in that, like let's say you're running Kubernetes as bare metal and you want to have Kubernetes here providing some things, there are still things that OpenStack provides that you may already have existing in your infrastructure. Because Kubernetes kind of wants to access some storage. It wants to consume storage, for example. And so we have OpenStack Cinder, which right now it supports over 70 storage drivers. Like these drivers exist and the nice thing about it is, you have one API to access this and we have two drivers within that, it's two Cinder drivers, you can either choose the flex volume storage or the container storage interface, the CSI storage interface. And Cinder just provides that for you. And that means if you have mixed storage within your data center, you put it all behind a Cinder API and you have one interface to your Kubernetes. All right, so Chris, I believe that's one of the pieces of, I believe it's called the Cloud Provider OpenStack. You talked about in the keynote, maybe walk us through that. Yeah, so Cloud Provider OpenStack is a project that is hosted within the Kubernetes community. And the owner of that code is the SIG OpenStack community inside of Kubernetes. So I'm one of the three leads, one of the three SIG leads of that group and that code does a number of things. The first is there's a cloud manager interface that is a consistent interface for Kubernetes to access infrastructure information in clouds. So information about a node, when a node joins a system, Kubernetes will know about it. Ways to attach storage, ways to provision load balancers. And the cloud manager interface allows Kubernetes to do this on any cloud, like whether it be Azure or GCE or Amazon, also OpenStack. Cloud Provider OpenStack is the specific code that allows us to do that. And in fact, OpenStack was one of the first providers that existed in upstream Kubernetes. So we've been there since the very beginning, like this has been an effort that's happened from the beginning. Well, I mean, somewhat non-ironically, right? A lot of those things we talked about, the OpenStack foundation and this OpenStack summit, a lot of the things talked about here are not OpenStack, per se, the components. They are containers. There was the OpenDev conference here, co-located. Is there confusion? There's doesn't, I'm getting it straight in my head. Is there, was there, do you sense any confusion of folks here? Or is that if you're in it, you understand what's going on and why all these different, these threads are flowing together in kind of an open infrastructure conversation. It seems like the community gets it and understands it and is broadened because of it. Yeah, I mean, to me, I've seen a tremendous shift over the last year in the general understanding of the community of the role all of these different applications play. And I think it's actually a testament to the success of all of these projects. In particular, we're building open APIs. We're building predictable behavior. And once you have that and you have many people, many different organizations that are able to provide that, they're all able to communicate with one another and leverage the strengths of the other projects. All of a sudden, yeah, a standard interface, low and behold, right? You know, a thousand flowers bloom on top. Yeah, it essentially allows you to build new things on top of that new, more interesting things. All right, Chris, any interesting customer stories out of the keynote that we should share with the audience? I mean, there are so many fantastic stories that you can talk about. I mean, of course we saw the CERN keynote where they're running managed Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. They have over 250 Kubernetes clusters doing research that are managed by OpenStack Magnum. I mean, that's just, to me, that's just tremendous that this is being used in production. It's being used in science. And it's not just across one cloud, it's across many clouds. And, you know, we also have AT&T, which has been working very hard on combining OpenStack and Kubernetes to manage their next generation of telco infrastructure. And so they've been big drivers along with SK Telecom on using Kubernetes as an infrastructure layer and then putting OpenStack on top of that and then delivering applications with that. And so those are, you know, we, the OpenStack Foundation just published on Monday a new white paper about OpenStack, how OpenStack works with containers. And these are just a couple of the case studies that we actually have listed in that white paper. Chris, you're at the interface between OpenStack, which has become more mature and more stable, and containers, which is, although it is maturing, is still a little bit, is moving fast, right? And containers and Kubernetes both, right? A lot of development, every summit. A lot of new projects, a lot of new ways of installing, a lot of new components, a lot of snaps, all sorts of things. What are you looking forward to now over the next year in terms of container maturity and how that's going to help us? So, so much, people are talking so much now about security with containers. And this is another really exciting thing that's coming out of, you know, coming out of our work because, you know, during the container keynotes, one of the things that was kind of driven home was containers don't contain. And, but we're actually at the OpenStack Foundation, we're kind of taking that on and we, and I, and my colleague Ann Bertucchio has been leading a project, has been community manager for a project called Cata Containers, which is, you know, you could almost call it containers that do contain. So I think that this is going to be really exciting in the next year as we talk more and more about, we're building more generic interfaces and allowing all sorts of new approaches to solving complex problems, be it in security, be it in performance, be it in, you know, logging and monitoring. So I, you know, so the tools that are coming out of this and this, you know, creating these abstractions and how people are creatively innovating on top of those is pretty exciting. Yeah, the last thing I'm hoping you can help connect the dots for us on is when we talk Kubernetes, we're talking about multi-cloud. One of the big promises about Kubernetes, you know, came out of Google from, you know, if you just say, visit, why would Google do this? It's like, well, there's that one really big cloud out there and if I don't have some portability and be able to move things, that one cloud might just continue to, you know, dominate. So help connect OpenStack to how it lives in this multi-cloud world. Kubernetes is a piece of that, but you know, maybe you would love your viewpoint. Yeah, so this is happening on so many levels. We see lots of large organizations who want to take back control of the cost of cloud and the cost of their cloud infrastructure and so they're starting to pull away from the big public clouds and invest more in private infrastructure. We see this with companies like eBay. We see with companies like AT&T and Walmart where they're investing heavily in OpenStack clouds so that they have more control over the cost and how their applications are delivered. But you're also seeing this in a lot of, you know, like especially municipalities outside of the United States, you know, different governments that have data restrictions, restrictions on where data lives and how it's accessed and we're seeing more governments and more businesses overseas that are turning to OpenStack as a way to have cloud infrastructure that is on their home soil that, you know, kind of meets the requirements that are necessary, you know, that are necessary for them. And then kind of the third aspect of all of this is sometimes you just, sometimes you need to have, you know, lots of availability across, you know, many clouds and you can have a private cloud but possibly in order to serve your customers you might need public cloud resources and federation across this, both in OpenStack and Kubernetes is improving at such an incredible pace that it becomes very easy to say that I have two, three, four, five clouds but we're able to combine them all and make them all look like one. All right, well Chris Hodge, we really appreciate the updates on OpenStack and Kubernetes in all of the various permutations. Yeah, it was great talking about it. This is, I mean, this is work that I love and I'm excited about and this is, you know, you know, I'm looking forward to it. I have fun with it and I keep looking forward to everything that's coming. Awesome, well, we'd love to be able to share these stories, the technologists, the customers and everything going on in the industry. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. Thanks for watching theCUBE.