 Ac mae'r ffoddfaeth wedi bod yn dweud i'r ffoddfaeth, sy'n fod yn gynghwyl a'r dweud o'r ffoddfaeth yma Hei amser, wrth gwrs, fe fyddwn i'r foddfaeth. Mae'n fydig i'r meddwl â'n gweithio ymlaenau mewn ffoddfaeth di-dynnol 2019, mae'n gweithio'r foddfaeth hynny, ac mae'n dweud i'r foddfaeth a'r foddfaeth Ond nid yw ydy'r ffeswyll yn ei ddefnyddio'r ffeswyll yn y llunio'r dynodol, bod ydy'r ffeswyll yn gyfloedd ddifol ynglynig o ffeswyll gwaith, mae'n gweithio'r ffeswyll yn y ffeswyll. Mae'n gweithio'r ffeswyll, mae'n gweithio ar 33 o thlygu newydd yw, mae'n gweithio'r ffeswyll, panel o ddysgwysiwn, allan o'r gweld, mae'n gwybod ei ddechrau i ddiffnwys i ddifoledu'r ffeswyll, yn cael gwein iawn. Mae'n gwein iawn i'w gwaith yn ymwneud i'w gwein iawn o gyda'i gwein iawn Matt Allison, y fyddai'r gwein iawn i'w gwein, sy'n gweinio'r ddau. Mae'n ddweud yn gyflaenol yn ddau'i yma yma, a mae cyfnodd o'r cyffredinol ar gyfer y gwein iawn, mae'n gweinio i'r gwein iawn, awards yn gwneud a'r gwneud, ac mae'n ddweud ar ei ddech yn gweinio'r gwneud, That's very, very interesting and we discussed some very controversial topics around the age someone should can transition, the sporting debate and whether particularly trans females should be able to compete in female sporting events. We talk about hormone blockers and all of that stuff, so really interesting and I hope you enjoy it. Matt, thanks for coming in, no thank you for having me. Yn ei fyddi, rouldwn i'n meddwl yw'r fagddio ar y traini. Mae dyna'r gweithio. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud o'r stori? Rwyf yn gwneudio'r ddau i'r fagddio, mae'r ddau. Mae'r fagddio'r ddau, mae'r cyllidau, mae'n ei bêl. Rydyn ni'n meddwl i'r ddau, ac mae'r ddau i'r ddau. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud o'r gwneud o'r ddau? Yn ymddangos gwaith ymddangos. Rydyn ni'n meddwl i'r ddau i'r ddau. sut i chi pari gylio i'r eu bryg, yción nhw'n oed yn dd transportation? Felly dyma'r ystod o thysgu adres wywng mewn arwain ar y diigoes, felly fydde phoedd i'r cymdeitio cymddu fel nad yn ni'n mor brant i. Nid yw'r cymdeitio'r cyd-raed i'n wneud. Felly mae'r cymdeitio'r cyd-raed i'r cyd-raed. M-W-Poyn yr adeg sy'n ei gwneud i'r cymdeitio'r cymdeitio a'r cyd-raed i'r cyllid yn gŷ-in. And I never got one like that. Really? Interesting. I think now-a-days it feels like parents are trying to be gender-and-neutral aren't they? And let their kids play with like footballs, and toys or whatever. Barbie dolls. But I think back when we were growing up. I was born in 1974 so it was very different back then. Interesting. And you were trying to get these toys but just not being able to... And all my friends pre-school anyway, were boys. mae gennym amddangos fel swyddi. Yn ymddangos weithio,ndo'n amser tyfu gwrs, ar hwnna'n ffordd yn theory. mae'n iawn ar gyfer hynny'n mynd i nhw, bod maith i blwyddyn wneud oedd y dysgu rydych chi sydd wedi dod ar gyfer am y rhaid. Mae'n ddweud y mynd yn ysgol am ysgol. Aynddi'n fawr sydd yma? Yn ymla dim. Felly mae'n sgol ar gyfer am rhagor? Mae sydd yn ysgol yma. Felly rydyn ni'n ddysgu ddweud am fwy fydd oedd a fyddwn ni. ac rwyf wedi bod hi yw'r argynnu, ni'n rwyf wedi dweud. Gwybod hi, dwi'n meddwl yn rhan. Nid yr amser ond rwyf wedi bod hi'n meddwl i gyffredinol, ac rydyn ni'n meddwl i'r gweithio'r gweithio, ymddol yn y Maelodau Tym Mwyn. Ac hynny'n dwi'n gwneud o'r cyffredinol? Rwyf wedi bod hi'n meddwl i'r gweithio, yn ymgyrchu yma, ac rwyf wedi bod rwyf wedi bod rwyf wedi bod hi'n meddwl i fynd. Gan ydych chi'n cerdd, mae'n defnyddio mewn sistech neu'n aen nhw, yma'n gweithio i chi hawdd mewn ddoch yn ei ddif i ddim. Rydyn ni'n cael unig am ymddangos, ac rydyn ni'n lle'n fyddolaeth. Rydyn ni'n dweud yn rhan o wagfod 10 o 11 o'i ddawdd. Rydyn ni'n dweud hynny'n ddweud arlinelliant mor iawn. Rydyn ni'n dweud hynny'n ddweud cofi ddweud arlai'r hyn. Yn y fyddai, cynedig, y gallant y peirio'r Rhyw cerdd, ac yw hwyl eich ymlaen i'w rhan o'r maen nhw, a dyf yn 5 oed yn ymwneud, oedd rhan o'r rhan o'r cas ar y maen nhw, ac mae'r ymddwys iawn oddi, rwy'n gweithio'r 5 oed, yw bod yn oed ymddangodd, yw bod yn ymddangodd. A wnaeth i chi'n cael ei ddweud o'r hyn. Rhaid. Rwy'n gweithio'n... nw, rydyn ni'n ymddangodd. Yma'r yma, oherwydd, o'r 5 oed, yw y salwch chi'n gweithio ar y bwysig yma, ac ydych chi'n gwybod i'n meddwl gweithio. A mae'r dda i'r gweithio ar y dyfodol, ddim yn ei ddweud y gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio ar y ddweud ac mae'n gweithio i'r ddweud iawn i gweithio. Gweithio? Yna. A ddweud, ac mae'n gweithio'r ddweud i'r ddweud yw'r ddweud o'r proses ar hyn? Well, I didn't tell anyone, and then my partner, who I met when I was 30, male partner, he guessed what was going on with me, which, you know, I dressed very androgynously in jeans and a t-shirt all the time, and I lived as a tomboy, so it baffled me sometimes how other people didn't tweak what was actually happening, but he just asked me outright, and from then it meant I had someone to confide in that helped with formal events when I didn't know what clothes to wear because I had someone to try and help me. And he actually understood what the problem was, and he spent 10 years telling me people won't care, so obviously they will care, but not in that way. And I didn't really believe it, still didn't feel confident, and then basically what happened after years of struggling and finding it really difficult, but obviously that was my life, I didn't know any different, so that was just how I lived. I started looking on YouTube, and obviously when I was younger there wasn't any internet, so I didn't know what was possible and what hormone to do. So looking at YouTube is the process to transition? It can start it for some people because it gives information. So at that point I then started seeing female to male transgender people transitioning and documenting their journey, and seeing them flourish in all the ways that I wanted to, and growing facial hair, voice breaking, getting muscles, having a surgery, and just this yearning to do this was getting stronger and stronger. I spent probably about a year coming home from work and watching these videos, and it just went on and on, and the impulse just got stronger and stronger, until eventually my idea was actually, ok I'm going to go and speak to someone, but... And how old were you at that time? I was 39. 39 at the time, ok. So you went from, so that nine years of, so you met your partner at 30, and then getting into it and learning? Well I was probably learning before then, I can't remember what ever time I started looking on the internet, but it would come and go. Sometimes I'd walk away from it, it's a bit like Pandora's Box if you don't think about it, it doesn't hurt as much. And then you then go through phases where you start looking and getting excited at what's possible, but I'd already put my barriers up, I decided I wasn't going to do it, so all that I did was make it really painful for me to actually realise what was possible and realise that it wasn't for me. So after about a year of just, it got to the point where I felt like I need help of some sort. So I sought out a councillor that was gender specific and went and spoke to him and I thought, basically my ideas were to try and find, I had many many coping mechanisms that would help me cope with being in the wrong identity and I was hoping for more of those. But there was a little bit inside me that kind of thought, well maybe he can unlock something and say something that gives me permission to transition. Obviously I knew that only I could make that decision and I can't let somebody else, somebody else can't do that for me, but there was a small part of me thinking maybe he can do that for me. And you know what, he did. So in that first session my barriers were just broken down. And they talk in counselling terms because I've done some counselling training since about the therapeutic moment. And I still remember that moment really clearly, that little thing that just made the journey that I then took easy. So what's the therapeutic moment? It's when you get that little bit of information that actually just shifts how you think and allows you to make the changes or see things clearer or whatever it is you're needing from that situation. Brilliant, brilliant. And so then it went from there. And so how long then from your moment with your psychologist to you actually thought right. Well I saw him in July as of 2013. I had a few more questions that I wanted answering such as what are the health implications are taking hormones. And I had those questions answered in September and I'd already started the process of seeing, obviously seeing a counsellor which was part of the hoops you need to jump through. I'd seen a specialist so I could ask a doctor so I could ask my questions privately. And so I was lucky that from that September I made my mind up. I got my questions answered at a session I went to at a support group. And I changed my name by deeper the following day and I started hormones the next month. That was very quick because obviously I don't know if people listening might not realise but some of the gender clinics especially now the waiting lists are getting longer and longer. And usually at least a year I think some of them are two or three years before you even get any initial appointment. Wow. So just for those that don't know what's the process? So obviously stage one is you've gone to see a psychologist. Then what's the process from there? Well if you're doing using the NHS you go and see a GP and your GP should refer you straight away to a gender identity clinic because obviously they're the specialists. It's changed from many years ago when you used to have to go see a psychiatrist separately because obviously they're not gender specialists so you shouldn't delay in getting you to the correct sort of help. Then you go to your GIC which is the Gender Identity Clinic and there you see either counsellors or doctors, psychiatrists maybe depends which clinic you go to and how they operate. You have to jump through certain hoops, have certain appointments and then once you get the go ahead and they're happy that you're ready everyone takes a different route as well. So for most people hormones are the most important part and then surgery but not everyone wants hormones, not everyone wants surgery and there's different options and there's no right or wrong. Oh right so you'll get some advice and then you'll decide on the best thing for you. So informed consent really. And then much like GP practices it sounds like there's a long waiting list. A very long waiting list. So is this a mixture of obviously more people and coming into the country and stuff but also it being more accepted now and it being more public and open. Yeah I think definitely because like I said when I was younger it was very different whereas now having seen one of the things that I noticed when I was watching the YouTube clips was the amount of trans people transitioning and saying my family and friends have been amazing. So there you know I know so many people that have lost family and friends but then also many are just saying that it's fine they've had no problem. And obviously the scary thing is you think I was all right for them but it won't be like that for me. It's going to go wrong. You always think worst case scenario. No matter how good it looks for other people but actually it was fine. I just had 100% support from everyone I told and I think why did I wait 39 years? But yeah so things are different nowadays and because of that and there's much more. This is where as well the work that the Diving Festival are doing. Yeah. It's just amazing and just raising awareness which is allowing people to transition and feel safe and secure in decisions to do that. And so how did you get into diving but then I guess maybe more broadly how has this experience governed what you've decided to do with your life and work wise and so forth? Well I've been mad six years now and I still feel like I'm changing and although I'm physically kind of where I want to be, life is changing I've got so much more confidence just because I'm myself which is amazing to me. And I'm trying to do more speaking gigs so that I can educate people and help people which I've always enjoyed doing things like that. So you get on stage and... Yeah. So it's a crazy thing from deciding to transition to then coming out to your family and friends and stuff to then being like coming out to the whole world. Yes. How did that happen? Was that like a conscious decision or were you always just drawn to... No I wasn't always. I'm actually kind of which a lot of trans people are semi-stealth. So if it's stealth that means the people around you don't know and a lot of the people around me don't know that I've transitioned. And yet I'll stand on a stage in front of a group of strangers and talk completely openly about it. So the process there, so I've always liked speaking, I looked back and thought when I was at school if someone had come in and spoken to the school about this, it could have changed my life. It literally could have made, I might have transitioned sooner if I'd had that information. So I thought I could do that for other people and I actually teach guitar as well and one of the things I love about that is the difference I can make for people. And so to make a difference in terms of transition and moving transgender rights forward excites me. And so initially it was just literally I thought I can do some good here. And then I actually have a very good friend of mine who's an international speaker very sought after. And I mentioned it to him just thinking maybe he can get me on a stage and I can do some good. And he kind of bit my hand off because he said you've got all the skills you need. Something to say, you like standing in front of people, you've got communication skills. And it just planted a seed in my head that actually I could do what I love and help people for a living. That's where that came from. Awesome. And you've done that for the last six years? No, no, I started six years ago and didn't really get anywhere because it's difficult. And I realised that my idea of standing on a stage in schools was possibly outdated because obviously things have moved forward and most school kids know. In fact, when I am... So no one turned up at school? When I transitioned with my business at a guitar school, I had to tell every single student or if they were under 18, the parents. And I literally thought some people, statistically when I had to tell 50 to 100 people, someone's not going to like this. I'm going to lose some clients. Not one of them did. And in fact, what was really interesting was that many of the parents came back. All they want is a guitar lesson for little Johnny, who's eight years old. And they've now got to go home and have a really difficult conversation about the guitar teacher. And yeah, they came back. They all did it. They came back and many of them just said, oh yeah, they just went, oh yeah, we've done that at school mum and carried on doing what they were doing. So it's amazing what... So you've done it at school and they've been educated about it? Yeah. So it's in the curriculum now? There's recent things in the news, isn't there? Yeah, you see things. I'm never sure quite what... But it obviously is being covered because that was what was feeding back to me. So the parents were okay and they were a bit, okay, we'll do this. But the response I then got was just, oh yeah, it's fine. The kids just knew about it. Amazing. So that's amazing. I'm moving on to age then. What are the issues around age? That's been a lot in the news, very controversial. The age, someone can transition. It would be useful to find out currently what the law is in this country and what you think about the different issues and stuff. It's really controversial. Being trans myself, obviously, and knowing how deep-rooted it is, it's not something that develops or grows. You're born like that and if you are born like that, you just know. But obviously there are cases where people, it's natural that people you get cross-gender play and that's just a phase. Cross-gender play being... So a boy might decide that they'd like to be a girl or they'd like to act more girly or play with girls. Or play with boys or vice versa, boys and girls. And that's quite natural, normal, and it can just be a passing phase. But it's just something on the surface. If you're trans, there was one incident I was speaking because I've done stuff like I co-chaired the FTM London support group. FTM is? Female to male for a couple of years. So I'm sort of involved in the community and I actually was chatting online to the mum of a trans girl. So someone that was born physically male but psychologically female. Just going through puberty, voiced her starting to break, trying to get her on blockers. And she was held? I can't remember, 12, 13 maybe. And the mum was being brilliant, very on-side, understood and just said, I didn't meet the trans girl but I met the mum. And she said that her daughter was really looking forward to starting blockers and experiencing hot flushes. And she said, because that's what nan has isn't it? Because it was a female thing. That's just one example. You could write a whole massive book on all the things that affect you when you're trans. That it's not just a passing phase. There's things that are so deep rooted that it just wouldn't be happening if that was a phase. And obviously people looking on the outside think that you're too young to make those decisions. But the people that are trained, you have to jump through all these hoops. But I'm hoping in the future that won't be the case. Because the specialist diagnoses you in one visit. If you're trained in this you can tell whether someone is... To an hour meeting and you can... So you're normally diagnosed in your first session. When you know all this, why wait, why make someone... It's really distressing. Transition is the amazing experience you can ever experience. It's brilliant. It's very, very treatable. So why make someone go through the wrong puberty, become really distressed, possibly have mental health issues. You get a lot of self-harm and suicide within the transgender community. And it all could be prevented if you could just go through the right puberty at the right time. So what do you think is the right time? I think it's that puberty. Which is different for different people. And what is the law at the moment? I'm not actually 100% sure. Is it 18 or 16? I know that some people have transitioned 16. And I know that some people have been given hormones younger than that as well. And there's always a big outrage when that happens. So is there no real current law? I don't think so. I think there's guidelines. You've got the W-path, which is the world... I can't actually remember what that stands for. But you've got the W-path guidelines. We'll put that in the show notes. So if people want to look, they can click on it. Which is like a worldwide organisation. And they give guidelines. But they are only guidelines. There's different trains of thought. There's obviously nothing can be perfect. But you've got blockers. So you can give a child blockers when they start puberty. And then women tend to start puberty earlier when guys start puberty. Which can be problematic with that. You can say there's pros and cons. But what they do... There's lots of problems with going through the wrong puberty. And there's irreversible changes that happen. And if you have blockers, then you just put your puberty on hold. And what that enables you to do is it gives you time so that you can go through assessments and wait till the world decides that you're old enough to make this decision. Which, like I say, I don't think you need that time. What's your counter to this then? Well, you just not give blockers and make someone go through the wrong puberty. So you kind of wait until... Because they say your brain isn't fully developed until like mid-twenties or something. And when you're younger you're using different parts of your brain. So these biological things that people are using to decide what age someone can make a rational decision, let's say. So do you think it should be like that? Or case by case? Obviously case by case. To some degree. Because everyone is different. But if it is something you're born with, you don't have a broken arm and have to see three different doctors over a period of a year before they go and put your arm in a cast. And I hope that eventually you can't see it. It's tough one isn't it? Because then the other side I guess is that you want to make sure 100% that the person wants to transition and it's not a phase they're going through or they're going to change their minds later on. I think that's probably the crux of... That is it. And that's what people are scared of. But as I said earlier, if you know about this thing it's pretty obvious that when someone is trans that they're just born like that. Some trans people are all different, don't realise until they're later. But very often they tend to have problems psychologically and they don't know what's causing them. So I know they have a very good friend that was an alcoholic and I think was a drug addict as well. But didn't know, there was something wrong, odds with the world. And then as an adult realised what had been going on. And he's now sorted all the problems out and transitioned and very successful with his life and happy. But it was still there. Even though he hadn't realised earlier on. Is it different in like the US and Canada, age wise? Is it varied from country to country? Obviously like US, you either have to pay privately or have to have your own health insurance. Oh yeah, so it must be a bit harder to... So it's different. I don't actually know what the laws and regulations are in those countries. Okay, interesting. And then on the school thing, what do you think about the pre-noun stuff that's very public at the moment? So I think there... I'm not going to get the country's right. But I know some places they're saying you have to use they rather than the he, she. I think there's a union America, Wesleyan. What do you think about that? I can see where the problems are arising. But what I would say is one of... I spoke earlier, I said that I had certain coping mechanisms in place. And one of them was around pronouns and stuff like that. And I would kind of ration with myself and I've actually got a blog on this if anyone wants to read it. I was thirsty one time and I wanted to go into a newsagents and buy a can of coke. And I kind of went in and I thought, well, it doesn't matter whether that shop assistant says he, she, sir or madam. It doesn't affect how I am physically, whether I was male or female. It doesn't make any difference to my experience of going in and buying a can of coke. So I go in, buy my coke, cringe my thirst and I'll be happy. But that was just a coping mechanism because it's not actually that simple. So the other example is if you imagine you've stubbed your toe and like out, out, out and you're waiting for that pain to subside. But you do that on a day when you've had a really bad day. Your girlfriend might have just left you. Your dog's just had a £700 vet bill coming or whatever and you stubbed your toe. You want to crumple and just burst into tears far more easily. And that's what the transgender person's life can be like. So you've got all these problems, everything from physical clothes, how people are treating you, it's a massive weight on your shoulders. And for someone, if you identify as male or the other way round, whichever way, and they call you she, that is just kicking you in the stomach and reminding you all those things and bearing in mind. They would do that. If they said that to you, they would be saying that to be insulting. At the moment, yes, because I passed. But obviously, before hormones, I passed a lot of the time without trying, but not always. Most of the time I did. But obviously, a lot of trans people beforehand, they don't pass in their chosen gender. So they could be various reasons. Some people do do it just to be mean. And some people it's because they don't know. The shop assistant wouldn't know. It doesn't help that trans person to think well, the shop assistant doesn't know that I haven't transitioned yet. It's still a reminder. And then if you're in a company... There's nothing you can do about that, though. I mean, the shop assistant, it has free speech and is able to... I mean, no idea. But it's just an example of how pronouns can affect someone. So literally, if that trans person is really dysforic on that day and they might be suicidal or self-harming, and that happens, it can actually just tip them over the edge. And it's something that's so little. So if you're in a company and I know... I look back, I've got a little great nephew who's four now, and I know from at least three he would see men or women and say he or she. It's just natural. And it's very difficult if you see someone that's presenting or looking masculine or feminine, you just automatically would say he or she. So if you've got someone that's about to transition, they haven't started their hormones yet, or haven't started the medical process or don't want to. And they say, actually, can you call me she when they look very masculine or vice versa? Psychologic can be quite difficult and you'll make mistakes, you'll catch yourself. It's only a word. I think it's important to just if you have people around you you need to let them know. Please call me he, she. Exactly. And as tricky as it may be if you're not used to doing that, if you can use the correct pronoun, their preferred pronoun, you can make their day because instead of that trigger happening, the opposite happens. I still remember the first time I was called Matt by a friend of mine and I was just, I jumped up and down. I was in the middle of London, I was like, yes, someone just called me Matt. Was it strange? Were you like licking around thinking, huh? Well, no, that was what was odd because one of the hardest things I found is choosing your name. No one does that. And you've got to live with it for the rest of your life. And so that took a little bit of time and I just did think, am I still going to respond to my old name? Because he's inbuilt psychological things with words and sounds and you hear your name and it tweaks your interest. But no, I reacted to it on Matt and it just felt right. Amazing. What do you think about another controversial thing? Sports topic. And so I guess for those that don't know there's been quite a lot in the press recently about certainly trans females participating in female sporting events. Because men have more testosterone than women. So the argument is it's unfair. I mean you don't want to be in a boxing ring as a female with a trans female. I think that's the general crux of it. What do you think about that and what are your views? I'm a sporty person myself and this is close to my heart really. I saw a YouTube clip with Piers Morgan and he actually says this is a quote. We can stick this on the show notes too. He says you just have to say I identify as a woman to reduce your testosterone levels to the required level but you physically remain the same and then you can compete in women's sport. So that's what Piers Morgan said. People have opinions and you can argue what's right or wrong. Actually from a technical point of view that's not true, he's got that wrong. And that's a fact, that's not disputable. So just repeat that. He says if you have hormone treatment to reduce your testosterone levels to the required level but you physically remain the same. Hormones don't they change you, you don't remain the same. So he's got that wrong. So basically at the moment I think the regulations are that you have to have continuous hormone treatment for two years and then you can compete in your required gender. So by then... This is the law currently? I don't know if it's law but that's the sporting regulations. So if you're a trans woman so you're female which means you were born male you might have had a lot of testosterone in your system gone through a male puberty but then you take estrogen for two years you lose muscle mass. There's certain things that are permanent such as facial hair so they have to have electrolysis, baldness and things like that, the size of your hands and your physical height and voice breaking but muscle mass and fat redistribution change and it's hormonal. Yeah it's interesting because I listen to a podcast on it as well and one of the things they were discussing around that is that men have a much higher testosterone level than women and I think even when you take estrogen it doesn't quite go down to the level that a female would have. So I need to check on that but I think that seems to be the crux of their argument and so they felt it would be unfair in a boxing ring if you're fighting someone who used to be male because males typically are stronger and all of that stuff. I thought they did so I don't know that's not something I've looked into but I thought that when you took estrogen if a trans woman takes estrogen that it does especially if they've then had surgery so they're not producing their own testosterone but even so when you administer the hormone it squashes your natural hormone. I think nothing's perfect and I do think that blockers this is where this will come in I think in the future we'll look back and we won't even go through the blocker stage or at least a short period. Science is advancing so quickly now that absolutely this might be a non-conversation very shortly. In which case they won't have gone through the wrong puberty they won't have developed that muscle mass and they just developed physically female or for us trans men to physically male right from the off because there are different bone structures so on the day as well sports reward freaks and I mean that so that's a positive word for a freak. If you're six foot eight then you might choose to be a basket player if you're five foot you don't so at what point do you say well you're too tall you can't be a basket ball player or your arms are too long you can't be a swimmer look at Michael Phelps he's not your typical body shape and that's why he's good at swimming. Life is not fair exactly I mean people are quicker, stronger etc it's just it's just a very interesting one a lot of people feel it's not fair but they don't know the full but they don't always know the full story also there's another I know Fallon Fox the MMA fighter the trans woman there was a big article apparently in the news a few years back saying you know trans woman breaks other athletes skull and so this is all true because apparently this happened but what they didn't that's fighting for you apparently that's a common injury for a contact sport like striking so I think it was the orbit around her from the Iver socket just like a hairline fracture so it's quite a common injury people like to sensationalise exactly and then what they also didn't point out apparently was that she lost her previous fight against a cis biological female so it wasn't a case that she's bigger and stronger and could just beat all the women Joe I think really what needs to happen with this is that someone will agree for people to sit down and just put some guidelines in place there are some and do it well but it's there's nothing's black or white and nothing's easy and that includes gender this debate about that doesn't make it easy exactly doesn't makes it really difficult there isn't a 100% positive solution to it but I do think it's also unfair to exclude someone from sport because they're transgender if you look at the regulations around disability and wheelchair users I had someone recently say to me why should we put toilets under neutral toilets in just for a few people and they thought that was okay to say that but you wouldn't say that for a wheelchair user there's not many wheelchair users compared to non wheelchair users and yet there's laws I know for existing buildings but for new builds they all have to have certain things to make them accessible no definitely we need to practice tolerance more and just accept, learn and listen or acceptance everyone's different you just have to relax, accept it doesn't affect your life and the world would be boring if we were all the same people accept people's differences the world would be a much less violent and war-torn place I think we'll look great to speak to you thank you so much for coming in I'm looking forward to attending your event at Diven Festival which is on the 24th of September so looking forward to that how can people get in touch with you if they want to engage you for talking you can find me at mattellison.co.uk there's contact details on there including for booking and in terms of the Diven Festival it's Tuesday the 24th of September and I'm speaking in Chatham but there's loads of events it's such an amazing festival to be taking place and I'm so proud to be a part of it it's really awesome they've done so many they're doing a lot of great stuff I mean it's really cool for us to be involved with it as well and yeah, well done in getting involved and we'll put it in the show notes as well thank you very much hey folks thanks for listening don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places