 to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today, our topic is eSports Travel Summit connecting the global industry. My guest is Jason DeWartz, the Vice President of the Sports Division of North Star Meeting Group and the Executive Editor and Publisher of Sports Travel. Welcome, Jason. Hi, Catherine, it's great to be with you. All right, so what is Sports Travel Magazine? Sure, Sports Travel is a magazine that is in its 25th year of publication this year. We are a trade magazine that serves the sports event industry. So our audience are organizers of sports events at all levels, amateur, collegiate, professional, as well as the destinations and venues that are interested in hosting their events. So those are primarily convention and visitors' bureaus or sports commissions, people whose job it is to convince a sports tournament of any kind or an eSports tournament that their city is a great host for the hopes that people will come and spend the nights and spend some money while they're in town. All right, well, in Hawaii, we always like it when people come to our island and spend money, especially at the convention center around Waikiki. We all really appreciate that after COVID hit our travel industry. So how about the eSports Travel Summit? What is that about? Sure, so Catherine, we do a couple of things at our company. North Star is our corporate parent, which owns a number of magazines similar to ours that serve the travel and hospitality industries. So we publish Sports Travel Magazine, but we also organize a few conferences and events for the industry. And so for also about 25 years, we have organized an event in traditional sports called the Teams Conference, which is a trade show where sports event organizers can meet with all of these destinations and venues in person, one-on-one in various appointments that they can get to know each other a little bit. And we were doing for a number of years, Catherine, a track of programming at Teams related to eSports. eSports is something even in our magazine, Sports Travel, we were early adopters of eSports as sports, particularly the in-person events. We really didn't see any difference between what was happening at a basketball game, bringing people to town, for example, as it was a video game tournament that would bring people to a convention center or an arena. So we've been covering that topic for years in the magazine, and we were doing it sort of as a track of programming at our traditional sports conference. And it became evident, I think, as the eSports industry started to mature a little bit. And as you know, there's a big difference between organizing, say, a softball tournament or a tennis tournament compared to organizing an in-person eSports tournament just by nature of what it is. And so we realized that there was a bigger learning curve there that probably warranted its own separate conference and event. So what we do at the eSports Travel Summit and had been doing since 2017 when we launched it is we bring organizers of eSports tournaments in-person eSports events, and we connect them with this other world, this audience that we have of cities and venues who are interested in learning about what it takes to organize those events. And there's a very steep learning curve, I think really on both ends, which has been great for us, the cities are learning what it takes and what they need to support these events and the other way around. I think the eSports industry is starting to learn that there's this infrastructure in place in cities through convention bureaus and sports commissions that can help them book their venues, book their hotel rooms, just work with them on bringing an event into town. And so that's how it started. It was really an outgrowth of our traditional sports conference and has taken off very much on its own and serves its own unique purpose uniting these worlds of organizers of events and places that wanna host their events. You know, you make a really good point in terms of the need to learn about how to put on an eSports event, that that would be really different than another type of sport event because people historically, they have a lot of experience putting on like a tennis tournament or a triathlon or a marathon or a baseball game or whatever, but they have a lot less experience putting on an event where you have so much technology involved. So let's show the video. The eSports Travel Summit brings together traveling hospitality industries with the emerging industry of in-person eSports events. We bring together representatives of destinations from across the country and suppliers who are interested in supporting the eSports industries with the people who are making these dynamic events happen. I thought the quality of programming at this year's eSports Travel Summit was excellent. It was just very relevant. Trends were on point. The venues of the future look amazing. The content was just great. If you're here, you're ahead of the game from any competitor, you're ahead of the loop for what's coming in eSports. Here at the eSports Travel Summit, I've just gained so many priceless connections here that otherwise I would have had to go and strategically go maneuver and do it myself, and you have everybody here all in one place. I think it's very important for the travel industry to be aware of the latest trends in eSports because this generation under the age of 35, eSports and video games are the primary sorts of entertainment. So unless they incorporate some sort of competitive video game or eSports component to their cities and venues, they're gonna have a tough time competing with people looking at their phones. So it's extremely important that we follow the latest trends. We've always thought that the programming for the eSports Travel Summit has been awesome. We've been a partner for many years now, and it's just been great to see the growth candidly over the course of the last four or five years, and I think the view of the future of the industry is so exciting to hear. We think about eSports events in the same way that we're trying to build these communities, build these events up, and getting a chance to connect with the industry that's thinking the same way is a really great opportunity. The way that people consume content and the way people look at entertainment is changing and is different today than it was five and even 10 years ago. What we call sports media and entertainment for today's generation of fans, there are tremendous opportunities for hosting in cities and for bringing people together. The eSports Travel Summit has been very valuable for our destination. Last year in Pittsburgh was amazing. Next year going to Toronto, looking forward to be able to have that mix of being able to see different destinations and the different things that people, places can offer, whether it's the hotels or convention centers, the backdrops of having a beach right here. It's been really nice and valuable for us just to get all these extra eyes on our destination. If I could describe the eSports Travel Summit in one word, I would say progressive. Fun, lightning. Good network. Inspiring. Innovative. Informative. Fantastic. Jason, that looks like that was filmed in 2022. Is that right? That's correct. So that was a recap of our most recent event which was last June in Daytona Beach, Florida. And that was correct just this past year. You know, I'm kind of surprised at how well attended that was. Tell us about that video and why so many people were there. Yeah, I'll tell you Catherine, it's very interesting because of the pandemic, like a lot of event organizers, this event is typically in the summer. So going back to 2021, well, going back to 2020, we had to hold our event virtually like everybody else. In 21, we had to push our event back to December. So we held it in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in December of 21. And then six months later held another one which is a pretty quick turnaround for us. And what was most interesting about that is when we were in Pittsburgh at the end of 2021, I think there was still a lot of concern and really a lot of unknowns as to what in-person eSports events were gonna look like by their nature. Of course, they all retreated back to online events. They were set up as well as anybody in the sports industry for that. And even as recently as last December, there was still some question as to what these events would look like. Fast forward six months later when we were in Daytona Beach holding the same exact event and our attendance had grown enormously and events were already back up and running and there was just such an enthusiasm for where this is all headed. It was remarkable even to us within that six month span of how the discussion had turned around completely with regards to people actually gathering in-person for eSports events. So as you saw, we had a pretty full house there. We do education but we also do networking as I was mentioning is one-on-one appointments which is really just pure business development getting people across literally across the table from each other to get to know each other a bit in a fairly quick informal meeting and see where the relationship goes. That's how we've built our traditional sports brands and it's been just a pleasure to see that we're able to do that and do it a little easier as time goes on in eSports as the industry matures a bit. Sure, and why is it important to actually attend the eSports travel summit rather than watch something from on Zoom? Like what is the benefit of actually being there physically in person? Yeah, we've long argued for the value of face-to-face meetings and that goes pretty much across the board, everything we do there, especially coming out of the pandemic. I think it's hard to put a value on just being in the same room with someone and starting a relationship in whatever that looks like. You can do it over Zoom of course and people have gotten that done and continue to get it done. And it's not to devalue what you can accomplish screen to screen like we are right now in two different parts of the world. But when you can gather an industry together and when you can provide both the framework that we do of appointments, but of course we have plenty of networking opportunities which in a lot of cases is where the real business gets done. Later at night over a drink perhaps or over dinner, there's still so much power in that and we still see an enormous future I mean, you can make the case for hybrid events and online events only, but at the end of the day, there's just something about being in-person face-to-face and I think everything we went through during the pandemic only underscored that. Sure. So what role would like a convention and visitor's bureau have or a sports commission have with eSports and putting on eSports events? Sure. I mean, really at the end of the day it's not that much different than what they do in traditional sports. So we've used these terms, convention and visitor's bureau and a sports commission in our part of the travel and hospitality world. Those entities sometimes are one in the same sometimes they're structured differently. But at the end of the day these are organizations whose job it is to convince groups to come into town and either host a meeting or in our case bring a sports or eSports event to their destination. And so in the best of cases both in traditional sports and we're seeing it now on eSports as well that is a partnership. So a city wants to work with an event organizer who's coming into town and put their city in the best possible light. And that may mean helping them source a venue for the event or making introductions to people at particular venues. It can involve helping them with hotel room blocks to ensure that their attendees have some place to stay and preferably at an affordable or competitive rate and convention bureaus, sports commissions they have the relationships with their local hospitality communities. I think what we saw early on and still to some extent see a lot particularly in eSports again as this industry matures a bit and becomes aware of this travel and hospitality world is you might have an event organizer who on their own goes and sees say a theater in a city and thinks this would just be perfect for my event. And if they're hoping to bring people into town they may not know that there's a city-wide convention that's filled every hotel room and no one will be able to stay anywhere near there. That's the type of thing that a convention bureau or sports commission can right up front make them aware of or even better help them negotiate rates for their attendees to be in town. Plus they can of course be of assistance with regards to everything else that an attendee might want to do outside of the events that their roles in these cities are to market their destinations and encourage people to come and hopefully come back again and again. So in the best of cases it's a partnership and it's one the cities are happy to have. It's just sort of a matter of making everyone aware that they're there to be of service. You know, one thing that comes to mind to my mind about this is that with eSports you can have it an event anywhere in the world and it doesn't matter what weather or season it is because it's an indoor event. Do you find that that's a draw for this kind of travel? Yeah, for sure. We've seen outdoor events in South Korea and a few brave ones here in the US. So it can be done but of course you're at the whim of the weather. So as you know by nature most of these things are indoors as well and it gives you a certain stability there for sure as they do in traditional sports knowing that at least weather won't or shouldn't be a factor at least during the competition. Sure, and so what are some of the trends that you've seen in eSports specific venues? Yeah, it's been really interesting to watch and follow Catherine over even when we started our event in 2017 and I don't know that there really yet were any what you would call a true eSports specific venue anywhere there might be places that were hosting events but they also hosted other things and we've seen this interesting it's been slow but it is picking up growth in destinations and companies private companies when they have the space investing in facilities that are specifically for eSports you're probably familiar with Las Vegas and the HyperX eSports arena at the Luxor hotels kind of the first one out of the gate former bar at the Luxor that was reimagined into an eSports arena it's terrific. One of the examples we talk about all the time of course is in Arlington, Texas where that was a city run development of their convention center where they went all in and decided to dedicate their convention center to becoming an eSports specific stadium designed by populace a traditional sports architecture firm and it's been up for a number of years and continues to run where we're bringing our event the eSports travel summit in Toronto next year they're breaking ground on a 7,000 seat eSports arena specific arena they'll use it for entertainment and concerts and other things but it's primarily gonna be the home to their two professional eSports teams there'll be a hotel attached to it these are the kind of developments that excite us and help us make the case in the broader sports community that eSports is real it's not going away it is attracting visitors it's attracting fans no different than traditional sports events are and we're seeing more and more of this and even Catherine on a smaller scale South Bend, Indiana as a great example smaller market they had an amphitheater in their convention center that they just in the last two years put some money toward about $10 million and renovated it into an eSports arena within their convention center in a city like South Bend and they have a local university that's already their sort of tenants team that practices and competes there but they're bringing in events and they're bringing in new visitors that they never would have had before so when we see things like that from even smaller or mid-sized markets that's the kind of thing that excites us as well and gives other cities a blueprint of what this could look like for them moving forward. Sure, and when you mentioned HyperX that was the first I had noticed that in the Luxor and that was kind of my first knowledge of this eSports industry and I was pretty shocked and interested in facility when I saw that. So now I had previously had a guest who talked about eSports in cinemas rather than just in arenas is can they put on eSports events in smaller small venues, large venues? Does it always have to be like a big arena or can it be like in a movie theater or in maybe even a smaller place? Yeah, it's a great question. We've seen the whole gamut of it and of course the answer is yes these can be in smaller venues and often are. I think as we have the conversations with cities and try to get them more aware of what's happening at eSports I think their minds immediately go to maybe images that they might have seen in an NBA arena, League of Legends, World Championships something incredibly produced and big scale and of course that's happening but the vast majority of what's happening is not that. It is in smaller venues, it's in theaters, it's in movie theaters, you brought that up as well. You have companies like Cinemark that are starting to invest resources, human resources, staff members into just building their eSports bonafides. There's an outfit called Super League Gaming which is for high school level eSports competitors and they've been operating for years and they do their events out of movie theater chains and they have kids fill up a movie theater and they're competing in one city against kids in another city also in a movie theater somewhere. So those are actually can be incredible venues. It's like anything else even in traditional sports so Catherine it depends on the event organizer it depends on the organization, what they're hoping to accomplish but yes we've seen plenty of examples and probably the vast majority of examples of in-person eSports events being held in much smaller venues than you would necessarily think. Sure and so how has traditional sports embraced eSports if at all and what does the future hold for those collaborations? Yeah, it's fascinating for us. I mean, we obviously come from a traditional sports background and even as we started covering eSports in our magazine there were, you know, we get a few eyebrows raised or a few questions saying, you know, is that really sports? But I think a great example of how it is sports is what we've seen with traditional sports. I think NASCAR is a great example. You saw what they did during the pandemic when they went to virtual races and if you tuned into any of that and really weren't paying attention the graphics were so good that you wouldn't necessarily know you weren't watching an actual race. And then you've got things, you know next year NASCAR is running a race in Chicago a real in-person race, you know with cars on the streets of Chicago for the first time and that came out of eSports. You know, they did a virtual event to show the people in Chicago what that could look like virtually and it's becoming an actual real event, you know next year on their circuit, which is incredible. The NBA of course is a great example. You know, they were all in probably the quickest of many of the professional North American sports leagues their NBA 2K League is given equal status in their headquarters as a league as it is the WNBA or the NBA they have the NBA 2K and they're all in on it. And we've seen, you know versions of that pretty much across the board and of course the biggest one, you know we are very heavy on Olympic and Paralympic coverage. I think for a lot of reasons that's been a bit more of a struggle although the International Olympic Committee just this week as we're talking announced that they're gonna have their latest sort of eSports summit next year over the summer. So they are, you know they're working their way through what that might look like. There's all kinds of complications for them in particular, as you know just with getting the rights to the games and exactly what type of game they might feature on a program but the fact that they're even having that conversation and continuing that conversation in itself is very telling because I think they also can kind of read where the future is for sports fans and the future is very much gonna be in eSports. Sure. And what do you think that that will look like in the metaverse? Yeah, that has been fascinating as well for us to cover. While of course it lends itself great one of the angles that we're really interested in seeing and we're starting to see a few blips of it is how destinations present themselves in the metaverse because there's opportunities even for them to do destination branding, you know in this crazy world that people will be sort of living in virtually. We're starting to see some cities sort of dip their toes into that and experiment a bit of how they can get their own advertising and branding and awareness in a virtual world in the hopes of getting people to eventually come of course in person down the road. So I mean that those opportunities and that future is sort of endless to me. So interested to see where that's gonna go. You know, in talking about branding do you find that you get media or marketing people that attend your event? Yeah, we've seen it pretty much the whole range of things. Of course, we're targeted mostly for destination branding which is a whole science in and of itself and I think the opportunity there for cities to get themselves in front of again these future fans and especially future fans who are willing to travel and we've had research that we've presented at our event that suggests and what that's been great because there's been quite a bit more research I'd say just in the last two or three years on eSports fans and their willingness to travel and the results that we're seeing is that they are more willing to travel and spend money than traditional sports fans are. So when a destination hears something like that or can dive into some research like that, I mean, bells are just going off left and right and what the opportunities might be and what that could look like. And I think that's again, part of where we fit in this world of being even more important to make some of these connections with them to help start thinking about what that future traveler looks like in addition to what a future eSports fan might look like. Sure, and so what categories of in-person eSports events have the biggest potential for growth? Yeah, to me, the area that has the biggest potential right now is in the collegiate space. A number of years ago, the NCAA decided they wanted to be hands-off and it's still surprising to me but they still have not really embraced eSports as an athletic pursuit. And so what's happened is you've had plenty of groups that have stepped in and have been more than happy to become essentially the NCAA of collegiate eSports. That is still emerging. There's several groups that have pretty large memberships of collegiate organizations where you have the likes of Alabama competing against commuter school and very small junior college or something as these alliances start to form and we're starting to see live events, in-person events and championships form around some of these collegiate events. And I think that has tremendous opportunity. We know what's happening at the professional side and they're incredible events. We're seeing quite a bit at the amateur and even high school level of in-person tournaments taking place but that collegiate space Catherine, I think has a tremendous opportunity. Just about every city has some sort of college in it and I would make the case at this point that almost all of those colleges at this point have some kind of eSports program or either developing a venue on campus or looking for space off campus to host these events. When you're looking at eSports travel, what games are the most popularly spoken about? I mean, what are they seeking to do in terms of tournaments? Is it like all League of Legends or is there more of a variety? Yeah, we've presented some research at our event that tries to get at that, at least for companies that are surveying eSports fans and what games they like. And won't surprise you, the types of games that are popular there, of course, League of Legends remains very popular. There are professional leagues now, as you know, in Call of Duty and Overwatch that have gone to a franchise model or cities have teams that can brand themselves around and get some fans. But it really depends. To me, it also seems case by case. I think when you're having the conversation, as you know, with someone who is not familiar with eSports, it's easier to have that discussion with something like a Rocket League that's quickly easy to follow. It's a score, this to that, and I can clearly understand who's winning. I think if you just jumped into something like Overwatch, as an example, it might be a little tough at first to follow, but that has to do with the people who are outside of eSports, the eSports fans. And that's, I think, a trickier part to be honest with some events and destinations is just figuring out where to put their resources because a game that's popular one year may not be popular the next year or as popular. And that's different than, say, softball or tennis or lacrosse, which are always gonna be popular. Are you finding that there are sports commissions or venue planners in different cities or even city officials really don't know what eSports is and they really need to be educated not only about what it is, but also the value of it? Yeah, I would say the tide is turning. We definitely, and it's been a challenge for us, to be honest, in programming our eSports travel summit as more cities become much more well-versed in eSports. And speaking the language of eSports, we now have a crop of cities who have been through it who have hosted events. I know exactly what they're looking for and what to do. And every year we see new destinations who are first coming to us saying, we know we need to be in eSports and we honestly don't know where to begin or if it's somewhere from a convention bureau, I see the value of it, but I need to convince my CEO why we should be trying to attract an eSports event because they don't know what this is. Help me help them understand what's happening in the space. We're still seeing plenty of that, but as time goes on, those conversations get less and less and we're seeing much more experience within the market of what it takes to host these and actual relationships being built to get those things off and running. So if our viewers wanna learn more, how can they learn more about the magazine and about the travel summit? Yeah, absolutely appreciate the chance to share that. So our magazine is sportstravelmagazine.com. We live day to day, hour to hour. So you'll see eSports news, traditional sports news from our editorial staff that we are posting daily, long form pieces, short form pieces and our eSports travel summit, pretty easy esportstravelsummit.com and you can get all the information about our event coming up in Toronto, which is July 12th through the 14th next year and all of our future events from there. Fantastic, well, Jason, thank you so much. I hope one day to attend your event. We would love to have you and we'd love to be in Hawaii too. So we gotta figure out a way to get there too. Absolutely, thank you for joining us today. In two weeks, my guest will be Vicki Perslow, a co-founder of majoring in gaming. See you then. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.