 Hello. How's everybody doing? It's amazing. Just following up from Chris Lemma, it's impossible to do that. We're going to jump into talking about, is it time to Diversify from WordPress? We've got an amazing panel here. But just for some context for our folks, how many developers Are in the room? How many product people are still sticking around? And how many sort of agency owners are there? Okay. So we're going to start right to left with Chris. Chris, give yourself an introduction. Who you are and what you do? I'm Chris. Chris Lough. I work on Easy Digital Downloads and WordPress Core. My name is Andrew Dorprost. I run an agency in Tampa, Reactive Studios. We have a client service side. And we do commercial products as well. And I work on Core and write code when I'm taking a break My name is Karim Maruki and I run Crowdfavorite. And I'm celebrating my 21st year running web agencies. Nice. So we're going to throw the softball question out. Is it time to diversify yes or no? That's all you get. Yes or no? Can I use maybe? When I said yes or no, it was yes or no. You can say maybe. Okay. I'll go with maybe. All right. Maybe. Now, that was the easy part. What's your definition of diversify? When you hear that, what does it mean to you as a developer or business owner? So diversifying outside of WordPress to other platforms then? I guess it'd be. I'm looking for your definition, sir. So if you say to me diversify beyond WordPress, to me it would mean to other platforms. So to maybe like a Drupal or some other web platform. Awesome. For me it'd be more of a language framework thing. I'm not going to jump to Drupal development for what we do, but we've had instances where we'll like build a Laravel app to go with a client project and sometimes they interact with WordPress, sometimes it doesn't. With all the new JavaScript frameworks, I mean I think they just make another one during Chris's talk. So some of those things are better tools for our client needs. I mean obviously everyone over there is learning deeply about JavaScript right now. So to stay solely like dead focused on WordPress I think can be narrowing and can be limiting at times because as your clients get bigger and their needs get wider they're going to need more than just what WordPress can do. But the fact that you already have that relationship, they're going to go to you first and they're going to want to pay you money before they go pay somebody else money to do it. And if you're like, oh no, this is the only thing that we do, eventually you're just not going to do anything for them anymore. Sure. So for the business case use we find that most enterprise clients absolutely love the WP-Admin interface with all the talk about the customize and everything else. The reason why in the last three, four years it's really penetrated the enterprise is the ease of use and the ease of adapting it for the rank and file employees. So that's a strong case. The weakest case for using WordPress with our enterprise clients would be probably the WP post-medit table and we're finding more and more clients are asking us to literally go around that and use different database solutions in design. It's amazing. What about other platforms? So let's talk business opportunity. So what either other platforms do you most likely integrate with or connect WordPress to? Is it a lot of social, a lot of sort of email connection or marketing stuff? What's the opportunity to look outside of WordPress for the business? Like Andrew you mentioned people are going to look at you to offer a little bit more like maybe Salesforce integration or MailChimp or something like that. What have you seen as a business opportunity? What we found a lot of times is we've made the WordPress kind of become a hub of what they're doing. I'll use Nexra for an example which while not a enterprise there's one guy and that's his thing. The WordPress site is where he takes his content in a particular fashion that we built and that not only feeds the actual website but that feeds out to the iOS app. It feeds out to his MailChimp newsletter. It's almost done feeding to Apple news. Whenever Facebook does their thing it'll go there. We have it built in such a way that the content can be syndicated in places like Forbes or Time or if he has any sort of relationship with any other publishers. Making the data available as soon as you get it in something like JSON or some very basic bare bones method then it doesn't matter what you're integrating with. WordPress has a lot of pretty clean ways of pulling in data and we're getting a lot better pushing out data programmatically not just like in a template file making that stuff available because especially with enterprise clients they're going to have internal systems that they've used for 20 years and they're not going to get rid of them. They don't care that they suck. They're not going to get rid of them. Especially if there's certain regulatory or compliance issues if you're dealing with financial clients or government clients all that stuff has to be tracked and made record of and there needs to be people that don't do anything other than look at other people working and usually there are very distinct systems already in place wherever they are to do that and that's where I think where a lot of the idea of diversification comes in. If I were to switch to building Drupal I'm not changing anything about my business. I'm using a different sized hammer at that point but when I'm getting into some of the API stuff getting into some of these front-end frameworks then I'm actually diversifying my tools so I'm getting other things that go along with it. Chris, from the developer side, anything? What do you mean specifically? In your context, what are you seeing anything else that you want to add on to maybe what Andrew said? A lot of the interesting stuff now is with scaling WordPress. Using things like Laravel or other frameworks as an accessory add-on. If you're building a SaaS you might use something like Laravel to work with the traffic and routing. That's pretty popular. Laravel and traffic and routing. Raise your hands if you understand that. Just want to get a feel. Just want to get a feel. From the enterprise side this is sort of an inverse look. Some clients, we don't have a lot of enterprise clients but some are diversifying and going to WordPress and using it right now we've done some solutions as middleware using WordPress as the publishing platform to their native app that's pulling data from AWS or something like that. What are your thoughts on enterprise maybe using now they are looking to sort of diversifying solutions and adopt WordPress? Kept as simple as possible for the non-developers. What ends up happening is WordPress is being used as part of a larger solution. So data is coming out of legacy systems out of CRM systems that are closed sourced or open sourced and the WordPress part of the site is just one aspect of it. And sometimes we're actually using the back end of WordPress to manipulate data outside of WordPress. So they're really starting to blur the lines on what the requests are business-wise on how to do that. And I think it's healthy because one of the weaknesses of the Drupal the old Drupal installs before the latest version was the fact that it was hard to train people. So people came over to WordPress but then they found the limitations I was saying earlier with the database structure. Now they're saying okay we don't have to have it completely one way or the other let's look at integrating this and just seeing what we can mix together. It would be so much easier if there was like a REST API baked in too soon to make that joke. Maybe. I want to have audience members ask any questions to our panel if there are any. Quickly, maybe. Nobody. Anybody. So we'll continue on the conversation with diversifying. How do you guys sort of... Yes, sir. Absolutely. For those of us who are old enough to remember Dynamo ATG in the late 90s and early 2000s that's exactly what it did was it was more of a framework and less of a completely customized solution all the way in and clients are asking for that because they want that standardized from business case in a sense they want the standardized feel of the WordPress backend or their rank and file employees to be able to edit information but not all that information might be contained in WordPress. Depends on the client. Yeah, I'm not the right person to ask how we do that. But yes, we do use other databases as well depending on the scenario and the client. It's a great idea. I mean, I'd love to see it obviously. I mean, I don't have the Drupal logo tattooed on my arm but the at the end of the day if WordPress isn't the right tool I'm not going to use it. If it's not the right tool because of the use case, then I'm going to find a different tool. If it's not the right tool because it's not the right client that's probably a whole different panel. But for me, a lot of it comes down to WordPress is how I learned development. That's initially what I got into when I left finance. And talking about old systems I was writing COBOL before I did this. And there's use cases for a lot of different things and a lot of times the clients don't really know what they want. They just know here's what I need to have happen. And that's why we're the ones being paid to do it is allegedly we have the expertise to answer that question. You can throw WordPress on a lot of problems and it can solve it to a point. Really, some of the stuff that Chris alluded to is really when it gets to scaling issues and when it gets to because, for example, the user role set up. We'll kind of complain about it as nerds. I wish I could map this to that. It's still light years ahead of a lot of other systems in terms of user role management and login security and that sort of stuff. So a lot of times you can set up something very quickly, relatively easily and just map it out kind of behind the scenes so that, again, the rank and file they just go to one screen, they log in, they see their things. Because the last thing that thinking about why we don't like documentation. Imagine making documentation for people who don't write any code, will never write any code and you have 8,000 employees spread over three countries and now some system behind the scenes has changed and now all your documentation is wrong and invalid. So being able to use WordPress in the right place and remove it when it's not allows a lot of companies, you know, from business case to keep that continuity that everyone just keeps knowing what they're doing and they just, they're comfortable doing their job. And to the question about 25 versus 50 or beyond, as the guy who works on large-scale projects and clients, I'll say, Webly, Wix, those are becoming more popular for the easy sites. We don't know where WordPress is going as a project, it's all up to us, everybody in this room and everybody in the community, but at the same time there's different options out there and we need to decide whether this is going to be a tool that is made for developers to customize for clients who want something customized as a framework or do we want it to be the easiest simplest thing period for tiny, small marketing websites. And that's up to us to decide as a community because I don't think most of the people in this room are necessary to create a Squarespace site. Back to you. I think we can make a lot, we can learn a lot from what's going on in that space. In my mind you have to I'm not using coding language but you have to make some things hard edits to make it as easy as possible that give you a dead end for customization. And that's just a business purpose that has nothing to do with technology. So the more you do that, the more you're making yourself sort of dead end for being able to be open. It's a difference between a finished product and a framework. Yeah, and I think with the APIs there and fleshed out and being used, you're going to be able to cover a lot of those use cases that right now it's too, WordPress becomes too much of a finished product to do what you want but it's not enough of a framework to build on top of where the project doesn't really fit. When the API does become available, you're going to be able to cover a lot more use cases. I don't think we'll ever hit 50 without the API. I don't think we'll get close. And then once we do, then it's like, well, is that really the 50? Because it's one part of a whole. I mean, I think at that point it's just more branding and bragging than anything else. But I do feel that as a developer, both as a developer and as a product and agency, I don't think it's going anywhere. And the scale of client that we work with has gone up over the years. And the complexity of what we built has gone up over the years. And I think that with what WordPress is capable of handling. So, you know, I feel really good about being able to continue to do that stuff. Whether it'll be an official 50%, like, sure, I don't know. I mean, it sounds nice, but most people, I mean, there's a good percentage of people that think Facebook is the internet. It's true. They don't know the difference. And there's people that think AOL was the internet. So whether it's 25, 50, 80, it doesn't make a difference. I want to go to Steve. Go ahead. That's a great question. I mean, for the ones that we deal with, it's probably a 50-50. There are some that come to us strictly because of WordPress. And they're familiar enough with it that they already know, you know, they know that it's easy to use, especially compared to some of the stuff they've been using in the past. We've dealt with a lot of clients that are getting really tired of paying high licensing fees and CMSs. And they're like, oh, this is free. And that immediately is what sold them. So they're like, can this do... They're willing to lower their scope because of how much they want to get rid of this old software that they have. And there are other ones that come and say, this is what I want to accomplish. And when they do that, usually WordPress is what we use, but yeah, they don't care. One other story. One of the top 10 banks in the world uses Sitecore around the world for their marketing sites. About a year and a half ago, they had a board meeting where one of the board members who had a lot of political sway actually said, I have a niece who showed me this cool thing that she's using on the internet called WordPress. We should look into that. They started a $12 million investigation into seeing if they could replace Sitecore with WordPress. So that speaks directly to you never know where the client education is going to come from. Yes and no. Some of it is, you'll run into folks that there's some job security questions on their end. They're like, well, if I don't have this system I'm the one in charge of this system. I don't have a job anymore. The company switched over their intranet system to this horrible Java-based just tire fire of the system. It would go down every day at 4.30 on the dot every day. It would die for like 10 minutes. Basically, this thing was horrible. It was badly implemented. Nobody liked using it. It was just for the intranet. Nobody could find anything anymore. It was really bad. I remember the name of it. I remember how much they paid for it. And it was a lot. Like seven figures. And there was like a minimum five-year contract sort of thing on this system. And like six months later I'm sitting in an airport and I happen to be sitting next to two people next to me and this one guy, you know, they're in suits. I mean, I'm not wearing a suit. And yeah, I know. If I wear a suit it'll look like going to a court date. So, you know, and that name comes up. And I had such a visceral reaction to the name of that CMS. He noticed it. And he was like, you know what that is. And he had my laptop up so he figured, okay, he's probably not a criminal. And I explained that, yeah, I used to work for this finance firm. We implemented it. It was really, really bad. And this is how much they laid out for it. And he kind of like reeled back saying, WordPress does this. I just opened my laptop to a local instance that I was working on something unrelated. And I whipped up three of the things that he had talked about with the person sitting next to him. He's like, how much does that cost? I'm like, how much do I cost or how much does this cost? And I'm like, I told him, that's the difference. I was like, for the amount of money that you'd be paying in licensing fees for this CMS that doesn't really work, you could have two people on staff that could handle every little whim that you want. And you don't have to hope that company will implement the thing that you want in the pipeline of what everybody else asked for. So, I mean, one of the big selling points that I've been able to talk to clients about is that they can have in-house resources if they want. They can build it to the way they want and not be limited by the proprietary license that they're sitting on. Yes, ma'am, right here. Percentage of users from free to paid. And does that increase the, what was it? Overtime. Overtime. Does it increase overtime? So, do you mean from like free, they're using WordPress.org for free, building their site, and then they come and hire one of these folks or move to a paid platform? Anybody have any experience with that at all? I mean, like, we've not dealt with clients that are on .com. Like, running a free site on .com and want to run their own. They were not the agencies they would work with. Usually those are like individuals kind of doing one their own thing. We've had plenty of clients that have like built, started building their own solution in-house. They went as far as they could a lot of times. Even software companies, like they'll have in-house developers, but they're not web developers because that's not what they do. They build accounting software, so it's like they have brilliant developers on staff. But none of them know anything about the web because that's not what they do. It's hard to say because most of them I mean, I would only know the clients that I've worked with, so that's for me a hundred percent. But I don't know, there's obviously a lot of colleges and some of them are really like blackboards, a big one or Moodle, but like a lot of them are running into issues with scaling and with students are knowing more about the systems and the schools that are implementing it. They're trying to figure out ways that things are just working. I mean we've worked with a couple universities to build like small, almost like pilot programs to see if it works from like a classroom perspective and then they'll kind of try to scale it out from there. But I'm not sure there's really numbers per se because most of them just don't publish that stuff. Yeah, we do a lot, or my company does a lot with higher ed and I don't have any numbers behind it. A lot of the folks are hiring us because WordPress is just so much more agile for their college sites to launch and the department sites to launch and then contribute and publish. So from my experience it's obvious to us that everybody's moving to this because there's so much more nimble, right? They can just launch and collaborate so much better. I have a question though about this and we kind of talked about like sort of the branding problem of WordPress in a way. The Drupal community there's no major like plug-in business like modules you don't see for 39 bucks or 50 bucks like we see in the WordPress space to the level that we see in WordPress space. I've been on phone calls with corporate customers before and they're using like $50 plug-in solutions to run their $300,000 website, right? And there's this expectation that even with them that we can just plug in another $50 plug-in and it's all set. Do you run into that? Is there an expectation that gets lowered in terms of price and quality at your level? At times. What we've run into a lot, you know, what I've explained because we do a lot of plug-in work, I mean, I've had instances where they're running some of the free plugins that I've written and I'll explain like, you know, I'll say, hey, I wrote that. And, you know, they're always like, okay, you know, they're like, well, can you, you know, do you have another one that does this? So I was like, the difference is 30,000 people want to do what that one does. You want to do what this one does. And, you know, most of them have been doing this long enough now where they understand the idea, you know, of customer specialization. Like, the more specialized it's going to get, the more expensive it's going to get. You know, I've not run into a client in probably two years, at least if not more, that has no web presence and this isn't their first web project. So most of them have dealt with developers before. They've dealt with agencies before. They've probably been burned by one before. So... Famous line, my developer bailed on me. So that's how it always starts, the email. Yeah, it's like, you know, the first one bails, it's their fault, the eighth one bails is probably yours. Yeah. And those are, but that's, I mean, again, that's just client management. But, you know, the idea being that, yeah, some of them are like, well, just go buy a $15 plug and I'm like, well, then go find which one it is. Sure. Yeah. And I charge 300 hours for the consultant to find it. Sure. Yeah. Yes, sir, we have top. For a lot of the clients that I've had, we've always customized the admin to some degree, whether, like, always the login page. And then usually we'll, you know, we'll shift some stuff around on the side, get rid of things we're never going to use, try to remove certain, like, metabox. Just like little things that they're never going to touch, I just get rid of it so they never have to see it. Where the API is going to come into play a lot of times is when there's already something that they're using to do whatever it is, whatever the use case is, like they already have an admin that they've trained on and that they've documented and then they have their own internal videos and all that other stuff where they don't want another admin. And, like, that's where the API is going to come into play where, like, they don't have to have another admin. They can keep using the thing that they have. Yeah. So I think the REST API is kind of an interesting idea. One of the earlier questions is about getting from 25 to 50%. And one of the key things that have to happen for that to occur is flexibility as a project, right? Because you want to make it as easy as possible to start putting in and getting out data. And I think what you're going to see is if you run, like, an e-commerce site similar to, like, Amazon where you have, you know, vendors who log in who don't necessarily need to see, like, half of the stuff that's in the admin and it's really not the, like, ideal experience for them because a vendor probably doesn't care about things like your comments or whatever. I think you could use, you'll start seeing a lot of sites using the REST API to build, you know, custom admin areas specifically for different types of users so that they get a tailored experience to exactly what they need to see. So, for example, you might see, like, a REST API-powered backend for, like, a vendor that would show, like, their sales and their products, and that's it. Just what they care about. I think that's going to be one of the bigger use cases and at least the near future for the REST API. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. And what Andrew and Chris said are very important to look from the customer point of view. It's easy in our space to take things a little bit too far. They went exactly to the right point of, this is how you do it. When I talked about the WP admin interface, I'm talking about the framework. I'm talking about the feeling of understanding what it generally looks like. There will be people out there who will say, this is an opportunity to create a completely new admin that looks completely different and looks nothing like WordPress and looks more like in certain name of other product here. Guys, that's why a lot of the clients are picking WordPress because they understand that menu over here, the exact types of boxes, so forth and so on. Let's not forget about the customer. So, the API is very important. It's going to let us do an incredible amount of work, but the business reason behind using WordPress is it takes 15 minutes to train and you can go to WP101.com or any other place that's as good as Sean's site and get the basics in a few minutes and get going. I'll start and I'll keep it short. Two answers. If it's below enterprise, I say go to a hosting solution, or managed hosting solution, that'll just take care of it for you, period. You're done. The enterprise clients have entire InfoSec teams that are taking care of this. It's no longer an issue. They know what they're doing. So, right now, it's just a bunch of fun if you're in certainty and doubt. That's it. Yeah, I explain, like, yeah, lock your car. I mean, like most security issues are simply, you know, people, it's updated. They're using poor passwords. They're not changing passwords. They're making everybody admins. They're not following the basics of, you know, like the low-level best practices. It's not even, you know, throwing heavy caching or various things at it from that level. It's just they're not even following what you should do. Like, the rules that you can't make a password on other sites that doesn't follow certain rules. And WordPress has actually recently implemented some stuff that make that a lot better. But, like, yeah, you just need to keep it up to date. Like, they think they can install it and leave it alone and never touch it. Yeah, those ones get hacked. And they're on $5 hosts. And that's exactly what you get. Yeah. I had an opposite story. Of course, I don't have the swagger that this man has. But I was on a phone call with a Fortune 50 financial company. And that was like, there was my big client, right? And I was with another marketing guy. And I'm like, he's gonna land this. They're gonna invest in WordPress. I'm picking out what color Porsche I'm gonna get after the deal's done. I get on the phone with a vice president, a vice president, a vice president, picks up the phone and goes, Matt, if I recommend WordPress to the board of directors, I'll lose my job. And I said, all right, well, have a nice day, right? I'm not gonna win in this scenario, right? These folks were still so dead set on picking another solution that was more secure in their eyes recommended by another firm. And I just, you know, lost that battle. But it's, you know, we still run into that as well. I wish I could have told them to walk his car. Probably would have told me to jump off a bridge. Come over to me and use car salesman. Yeah. Oh, okay, cool. Most of the systems that I've worked with that are, you know, the connector part isn't really the difficult. It's like, when you start getting into the, like even Salesforce, but things like Salesforce, Microsoft, CRF, some of the really large ones, they're implemented to the client's spec. So there's no two instances that are gonna be the same. So it's like, I don't know where I'm gonna map something because I don't know if that's gonna be there. Yeah, like it's already tailored to exactly what they want. So yeah, the ability to connect them is already exist. It's, I don't know where I'm gonna put it because I don't know what is there for me to put. And they're the only ones that have that sort of configuration. So they're gonna have to pay for the customization because there's literally nobody else that can use it. We had a massive company come to us and say, we want to move from Sitecore to WordPress, but we want all the marketing automation tools that Sitecore does. So we gave them a seven figure budget and said, this is what it would take. And they said, yes. And we built it. And everybody on the entire team is so excited. We're gonna make the coolest product out of this. We're gonna be able to do X, Y, and Z. About day three of the discovery process. We realized this is so customized to reverse engineer what we do for them and turn it into a product that you're gonna be able to say, go ahead and just install this. And you've got all the features of Sitecore. No, not gonna happen. Everybody uses those custom features so deeply. It's a one off case. Salesforce is one of the favorite ones for me to figure out because anytime I'm talking to a client, they're like, oh, we need to integrate with Salesforce. I'm like, which one? And they'll be like, well, just Salesforce. I'm like, well, no. The ability for me to integrate is partially based on how much money you're already giving them. And then where I can put it is also based on how much money you're giving them. And what I can get out is also, everything, Salesforce is all a card. So you want this piece, you're paying this. There's very little that is all the stuff from Salesforce. But it's popular enough that people just assume, well, yeah, I can totally just connect it. It'd be fine. And you can do the core part of the connection, but then where it goes and how it becomes useful data for them is always gonna be based on what their existing workflow already is. It's amazing to gauge the reaction of folks who, like you said, they get amazed that they can change SEO titles. And I was on a phone call the other day and we were setting up new pages. And I used, like, Jake's, like, a reorder page plug-in thing. They're like, well, what about if we want to reorder the page? And I just dragged it up to the top. And they were like, oh, my God. That is awesome, right? And then you, like, advance custom fields for custom fields and text on that page. And they're like, this is great. We don't have to call the engineering team to do these changes. And they just get so overwhelmed. And they're like, how do we add a carousel? And I said, oh, this is done. No carousels on the home page. We're not gonna go that far. There are pages and title tags and things like that. So yes, as Chris talks about, Chris Lemma talks about in his talks, you have to find the trusted advisor. And sometimes, you know, you are the expert for your particular field, but you want to refer to somebody else they're gonna trust as well. So if you do have an IT department that you've already spoken to and says, you know, yes, this isn't a problem, great. Otherwise, you know, even if you're a small firm, talk to the folks at any of the WordPress-managed hosting companies and say, hey, I've got a particularly difficult client. I need to explain to them security. Would you jump on a call with me, for somebody from your sales team to explain how we can do this better for client X, because this is the scale of their business? A lot of the managed WordPress hosting companies have sales teams for just about any size client. And they're happy to get on with you. Oh, yeah. That's their job, right? Yeah. One other question, selfish question. Diversifying from the way we publish with WordPress, open up Chrome browser, log in through the dashboard, what are your thoughts on the native app, like a Calypso project kind of thing, like anything you can speak to about that from experience, building native apps or anything like that? And I mean that, the native app, like how people administer their WordPress site or content. I mean, Calypso is pretty cool. And the idea being that, especially if they're coming from .com, you know, that was the whole idea of Jetpack to begin with. It was like they wanted people to be able to move over and not think anything changed. So if you're using something like Calypso, you're going to a .com site. You're going to your own .org site. Nothing has changed. Calypso wasn't built for us. A lot of things that are put out there are not for me. And that's cool. That's totally fine. The idea that there's like this native field, I don't know what's native for a different company. And they're going to have to tell me. We're going to have to do discovery. We're going to have to figure out what their native process already is. And then yeah, then we look at how much of that can be implemented, how much of that is even feasible. At times I'll be like, this is the opportunity to fix flaws that you know exist in your workflow already, but you couldn't change because of whatever system you're using. Sometimes you kind of just give them that little bit to say, hey, you can totally blow up your problem and change it if you want. And they're waiting for someone else to tell them that they can. They're waiting for permission to throw away like a bad process. And you give them that permission and they will gladly do it. Chris, anything else you want to say? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, that's to me, I don't deal with a lot with the custom apps, that type of deal. But I could see where it would be useful. I would think it would be a bit more interesting if you get an enterprise sort of like the New York Times where WordPress isn't their only publishing flow. They use a different system depending on whether they're going to print media or whether they're going online only. So I would think it would have to be a lot of discovery involved. Sure. One minute. One minute. One question. Oh, one more question. Cycord, Drupal, WordPress. Where does WordPress lie in that? It depends on the client. Larger clients, you know, the enterprise level, yeah, you're looking at Cycord. You're looking at Adobe's CMS. SAP has something, I think, that people will use. The Drupals of the World. If you're dealing with government in D.C., you're fighting Drupal. And they probably already got the contract. The, you know, as you kind of go down the line, like if it's e-commerce, you're looking at like big cartel Shopify. Usually it's hosted solutions, you know, as soon as you get away from the enterprise level, you're competing against a term key hosted solution. You know, you're convincing someone to give you money to build them something that they need compared to taking something off the shelf that kind of sort of fits. We have a PR problem in the WordPress community. As a community, we are not willing to do what even Drupal is, let alone the license solutions of actually engaging with Forrester and the other technology research companies. And the problem is then we're being discounted. We're being discounted still as today in the enterprise as a blog. We're being discounted as well. Maybe it's a CMS framework. Maybe it can do some light stuff. And until we engage the people who are writing the technical reports on content management systems in the enterprise, in the enterprise, we still have a handicap. I agree. And I think we'll wrap it up from there. So round of applause for our panel. Lunch is right there through that wall.