 From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in Seattle for KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018. It's theCUBE's coverage. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. We've been there from the beginning, watching this community grow into a powerhouse, almost a Moore's Law-like growth, doubling every, actually six months. Good, think about it. Chris Anasig, CTO and CO of the CNCF, the CloudNative Computing Foundation. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. Super stoked to be here. Thank you for being with us since the beginning. So it's been fun to watch you guys. CNCF has done an exceptional job. I thought a fabulous job of how you guys have built out a great community, open source community as the main persona target, but brought in the vendors on terms that really worked for open source, Linux Foundation, great shepherding this thing through. Now you have basically, it looks like a conference. End user conference, vendors are here, still open source is pure. The growth has been phenomenal. Just take a minute to give us the update on just some of the stats. Yes, sure, I mean, you know, we're 8,000 people here today, which is absolutely wild. What's actually crazy is when we planned this event, it was about two years ago when we had to start booking a venue, figure out how many people may be here. And two years ago, we thought 5,000 would have been a fantastic number. Well, we got to 8,000, we have about 1,500 to 2,000 people on the wait list that could not get in. So obviously we did not plan properly, but sometimes it's hard to predict kind of the uptake of technology these days. Things just move quickly. I think we've kind of benefited from the turnaround that's happening in history right now where companies are finally looking to modernize their infrastructure, whether it's like moving the cloud or just like modernizing things. And that's happening everywhere from like traditional enterprises, you know, to internet-scale companies. Everyone's kind of looking to modernize things and we're kind of at the forefront of that. I mean, the challenge of events is it's almost provisioning over provision. You know, Shob, you want elastic, dynamic agile. I want a cloud-native event. Programmable space that can just go, you know, auto-scale when you need it. Exactly. And all kidding aside, congratulations on the success. But one thing we've been covering on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE and you guys have been actually executing on is the growth in China and open source. It's around for a while, but just the scale, just pure numbers. Talk about the success in China and the impact to the open source community and business. Yeah, Sue, we put on our first event in Shanghai. KubeCon, China, it was fantastic. We sold out at 2,500 people. Always a little bit difficult to do your first event in China. I have many stories to share on that one, but the amount of scale in terms of software deployment there is just fascinating. You kind of have these companies like OFO is like a bike sharing system, right? You know, in China, they have hundreds of millions of these bicycles that they have to kind of manage, you know, in an infrastructure way and the software that you use to actually do that has to be built very well. And so the trend that we're actually seeing in CNCF now is about 10%. We have three projects that were born in China, dealing with China scale problems. So one of those projects is TIKV, which is kind of just a very well fine-tuned built distributed key value store that is used by a lot of the Chinese cloud providers and folks like OFO and LME out there that are just like dealing with hundreds of millions of users, you know, it's fascinating. I think the trend you're going to see in the future is there's going to be more technology that is kind of born dealing with China scale issues and having those lessons kind of, you know, being shared with kind of the rest of the world and collaborate. One of the goals in CNCF for us is to help bridge these communities. In China, about 25% of our attendance was international, which was higher than we expected, but we had like dual like live site simultaneous translation for everyone to kind of try to bridge these. It's a big story. The consumption and the contribution side is just phenomenal. China is our number two contributor to all CNCF projects. It's very impressive in my opinion. Chris, there was a lot in the keynote, you know. So I want to give us a little insight. It's different for a foundation and open source communities than it is for a company when you talk about, you know, the core product being Kubernetes and then all these other projects you've got the incubating projects, the ones that have been elevated. New at CD comes into it. How do you do the juggling act? Yeah, you know, I mean, honestly, like the whole goal of the foundation is basically to cultivate and sustain and kind of grow projects that come in. Some are going to work and be very successful. Some may never leave, you know, the sandbox, which is our kind of early stage. And so today, you know, I was very excited to finally have an SED come as an official incubating project. This is our 31st project, which is a little bit wild since we started. It was just Kubernetes. We had other projects that moved from, say, sandbox incubating. So in China, one of our big announcement was Harbor, which is a container registry, or actually technically we call it a cloud native registry because it does support things like Helm charts. It doesn't only host container-based artifacts, it moved up to the incubating level. And, you know, that is being embedded. It's in all of cloud foundries and Pivotal's products. It's used by some cloud providers in China as their kind of registry as a service. Like they're equivalent to like ECR or, you know, GCR, essentially, and, you know, we've just seen incredible growth across all of our projects. I mean, we have three graduated projects. Envoy recently, which you saw Matt Constance and Jose on stage a little bit talk about, which to me, you know, what I really like about Envoy and Prometheus, these were two projects that were not born from a vendor. You know, Envoy came from Lyft because they were just like, you know what, we're not happy with our current kind of reverse proxy, service proxy situation. Let's build our own open source and kind of share our lessons. Prometheus, born from SoundCloud. So like, I think CNCF has a good mix of, you know, hey, we have some initial vendor-driven projects. You know, like Kubernetes came from Google, but now it's used by a ton of people, but then you have other projects that were born from the end user community. I think having that healthy mix is good for everyone. I think the DNA of that early on in the culture has been a success for a few guys. Not being vendor-led, being end user-led, but vendors can come in and participate. Absolutely. So talk about the end user perspective because we're very interested, a lot of people are interested in end user, what are they doing with it? It used to be a joke, you know, I stood up a bunch of Hadoop, but what are you using it for? What are people using Kubernetes for? You got Apple, Uber, Capital One, Comcast, GoDaddy, Airbnb. They're all investing in Kubernetes as their main stack. And CNCF projects, not only Kubernetes. But what does that mean when they say Kubernetes as a stack? It's kind of been encapsulated to include other things. People are looking at this as a real alternative. Can you explain what that is about? So I will, so I think people have to realize that CNCF is necessarily more than just Kubernetes. CloudNative is more than just Kubernetes. So what we'll see is, take a company like Lyft. Lyft did not start using Kubernetes. They're kind of on that migration path now, but Lyft started to use Envoy, Prometheus, JRPC, other technologies that kind of lead them to that CloudNative journey that eventually like, you know what, maybe we don't need our homegrown orchestrator, we'll go use, you know, use that. And use like, you know, everyone kind of has a, everyone falls in differently in kind of a community. Some people start with Kubernetes and eventually, you know, they subsume the other kinds of projects. This is what the cloud's about. Let me rephrase the question. So when people say, because this is real trend, we've been reporting on this, the CNCF stack, people have language semantics on how that's cloud, but on the Kubernetes stack. I don't like stack because it means like there's one prescribed solution where I think it's more like an all a cart. Yeah, so talk about, well, if I quote, end quote, the CNCF stack, if there was like a word for it, as an alternative to, as a solution base with Kubernetes at the core of it, right? Okay, cool. What is that usage being looked like? How is that developing? How are end users looking at the CNCF holistically with Kubernetes at the core? So, I mean, we have, we have one of the largest end user communities out there and, you know, of any open source foundation, we have about 80 members. And, you know, when we talk to them directly, you know, why are they adopting CNCF projects and technology? Most of the time is they want to deploy software faster, right? They want to use modern CI CD tools and just development patterns. And so it's all about just like faster time to market and making the developers' lives easier. So they're actually able to deliver business, customer value. And that's it, yeah, it's basically similar to the whole DevOps mantra, right? If I could ship software faster and it's easier for my developers to get stuff done, I'm delivering value to whatever the end, you know, my end user customer is at the end of day. And like, we have, if you go to the CNCF end user website, we have case studies from like Nordstrom, Capital One, I think Lyft is there. It's just a bunch of people that just, you know, we move to these technologies because it improved the way we could monitor software, how fast we could ship. It's all about like faster time to market and modernizing infrastructure. Yeah, Chris, give us a little bit of you coming, looking forward, Ron, 1.13 for Kubernetes. If I read it right, you know, the contribution slowed down a little bit because we're actually reaching a level of maturity. So, you know. Kubernetes is boring and mature. What do you see as we come other than continued growth? So, I think the wider ecosystem is going to like continue to grow. So if you actually look at Kubernetes directly, it has been very focused on moving things out of the core as much as possible and trying to force people to extend things. So I don't know if you saw Tim Hawkin had this great talk in terms of how all the Kubernetes components are either being ripped out or turned into custom resource deficient or CODs, basically trying to make Kubernetes as extensible as possible. Instead of trying to ram things into Kubernetes, hey, use the built-in extensibility layer. So the analogy here would be like kernel space versus user space if you're going to Linux. All the exciting things tend to happen in user space these days, but yeah, the kernel is still important. It's actively contributed to buy a ton of people, very critical of everything, but a lot of the action happens in user space. And I think you'll see the same thing with Kubernetes where it'll kind of become like Linux where the kernel of Kubernetes, very stable, mature, focus on basically not breaking and trying to keep it as simple as possible and build good extensibility mechanisms so folks could plug in whatever their systems. Like we've saw this with storage in Kubernetes. A lot of the initial storage drivers, flex volume stuff was baked into the Kubernetes with a new effort called the container storage interface. They all pulled that out and basically built an extensibility mechanism. So any company or any project could bring in their storage solution. One of the key trends that we're seeing obviously in cloud is automation. You see serverless around the corner. You see all these things going on around. The cool things you guys are building. As automation continues to move down the track, where is that going to impact and create value for customer end users as they roll with the CNCF? So Kubernetes at some point could be, why even be managing clusters? Well, that should be automated at some point. I mean, hey, you could do it both ways. I mean, a lot of people love the managed service approach. If I could pay a large hyper scale cloud provider to manage everything, the more the merrier. Some want the freedom to roll their own. Some may want to pay a vendor. You know, I don't know, Red Hat OpenShift looks great. Let's pay them to help manage that. Or I just roll it on. And we've seen it all. It really depends on the organization. We've seen some very high-end banks or financial institutions that have very good technical chops. They're okay rolling on their own. Some may not be as interested in that and just pay a vendor to manage it. So for us, it's all goodness, whatever you prefer. I think longer term, we'll see more people just through the convenience of managed services go that route. But for CNCF, Kubernetes, there's multiple ways to do it. You go vanilla, you could go, you know, manage service. You could go through vendor like Rancher or OpenShift. The cool thing about all these things is they all are conformant to the Kubernetes certified program. So it means, you know, there's no breakage or forking, everyone's compliant. All right, so for the people that are watching that, this couldn't make it here or on the waiting list or doing lobby con. I'm sorry, I'm sorry for the waiting list. There are those, well, it's actually good then you need to do lobby con. There's places to meet here. So I know a lot of people actually are in town kind of lobby conning it. But for the people that aren't here, what's the most important story that's being told? I know we're not being talked about. What is happening here? What should people know about this year? What is, in your mind's eye and in your understanding of the program and how it's developing early on, what's the most important thing? I think in general, like, you know, CNCF, cloud native, Kubernetes all have matured a lot in like last three years, especially last, I think 12 to 18 months where we've seen kind of the, you know, earlier it was all about kind of technical savvy folks scratching their itch. You know, now, you know, the end users that I'm talking to, you have like Maersk. Like, what does Maersk do? Like they ship, they actually ship containers, right? But now they're using, you know, Kubernetes to manage containers. They're in the container business. Exactly. They're in the container business. So, you know, I'm seeing traditional insurance companies. Like, so I think what we're doing is we're basically hitting, we're kind of past that threshold of like early adopters and tinkers. And now we're moving to like full blown mainstream adoption. And part of that is the cloud providers are all offering managed Kubernetes. So it's convenient for companies that are moving to cloud. And then on the distro front, you know, OpenShift, PKS, Rancher, they're all mature products. So there's just a lot of stability, maturity in the ecosystem. Stu and I were talking. Just wanting to talk about the mature stuff. Give us your take on Knative. What should people be looking at that? How does serverless fit into all of this? So serverless, you know, we love serverless and CNCF. I just viewed as another kind of programming model that eventually runs on some type of containerized stack, right? So for us in CNCF, we have a serverless working group that's been putting out like white papers. We have a spec around cloud events standardized that I think Knative is a fantastic approach of how to basically build a kind of like CNCF where it's like a set of components that you can use to build your own kind of serverless framework. And I think the adoption has been great. We've actually been talking to them about potentially bringing in some components of Knative into CNCF. I think it's, I think like, if you want to provide your own serverless offering, you're going to need the components in Knative to make that happen. And you know, I've seen like SAP's picked up on it, GitLab just announced a serverless offering based on Knative today. So I think it's a great technology. It's still very early days. I think, you know, serverless is great and will be continually used, but it's one option of many. Like we're going to have containers, we're going to have serverless, we're going to have mainframes. It's going to be a mix of everything. Like, like, I mean, you know, we've, I'm old enough to remember the old client server days when multi-vendor was a big buzzword. Multi-cloud now is a subtext to here. I think that one of the big stories in addition to the maturity is that you started to see people have one choice. And hybrid cloud is the word today, but I think ultimately people view it as a multi-cloud environment of resource. So one interesting thing about KubeCon, I think one of our reasons that we've grown so much is, if you look at it, there's really no other event you could go to that is truly multi-cloud. You have all the hyperscale folks. You got your end users and vendors in one area, right? Versus, you know, you going to a vendor specific event. And so I think that's kind of been part of our, you know, benefit and then lock to kind of stumble on this where everyone is kind of in the same room. So I think next year, big push on bringing all, you know, all the clouds. Well, Chris, thanks for spending the time. I know you some are busy. CTO and COO of the CNCF really making things happen. This is a real important technology wave, the cloud computing and having the gun and choices and ecosystem around open source is making it happen. Congratulations to your success. We're going to continue coverage here. Day one of three days of Kube coverage. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Stay with us for more after this short break.