 Hello and welcome. This is March 11, 2021. This is the joint meeting with the House Education and House Ways and Means Committee. And today we are looking at a variety of issues related to education funding and impact. I wanted to start first and welcome to the Ways and Means members and to Chair Janet Ansel for joining us today. And did you want to say anything? Representative Ansel? No. Thank you for having us. As people know, we acted on the yield bill early in the session to give a signal to the field about, you know, the improved revenue situation. So you have the bill. We're definitely interested in it. And the information, as I understand it, that we're going to talk this morning is going to help us better figure out how to move forward. I realize that we won't get the balance sheet until later. But yeah, no, I appreciate being here. Thank you. And there's a possibility that that may be ready tomorrow. And if not, then we'll get to it early next week. So today then I'd like to start with Susie Glowski from the Vermont School Board Association to give us an update on our school budgets following town meeting. So welcome. Good morning, everyone. Thank you very much. And I'd like to start by thanking the Ways and Means Committee for its early action on the yield bill because we think that had a role in the positive results that I am about to provide to you. The unofficial results that we have through town meeting day are that there were 94 budgets voted on town meeting day there was one that was voted before town meeting day, and of those 92 were approved and three were defeated. There are 20 budgets that are waiting to be voted at a later date. And the information I have for you as to those that were defeated. It was Barry Unified Union School District. The Georgia School District in Franklin West Supervisor Union and Wolcott School District in the Orleans Southwest Supervisor Union. And I've provided to you in my written testimony a list of the districts that are voting at a later date and if we have the exact date they're voting that's included in there as well. And that is the information that I have for you this morning. Hopefully, hopefully, my written testimony has been received so that you can see it on your website soon. Sorry, it was sent in later than usual. Thank you. I don't see it, but I just want to see if there are any questions then for the school boards. Okay, thank you. And move on to Brad James is going to help us understand the federal funds that are coming to our school districts based on. I think it's three different titles federal titles as well as answer fund CRF funds. And I don't knew it during the gear funds. I did not have the gear funds in there, because they initially they went to the technical centers. And I'm not sure what's happening with the second round of your funds right now. So this is answer one answer to and CRF. Thank you. So welcome. Thank you. I'm going to start with the agency of education for the record. What I was asked to do is kind of compiled that and then look at it and then put it out there on a per pupil basis along with some other information. And so what I looked at were three of the major titles that we received when we title one, part a title to a and title for my sense a a handout. So kind of just a brief overview of what that each individual title does title a is improves academic achievement for disadvantaged kids. It's money that is sent to the federal government to provide opportunities for those children who are disadvantaged is based on poverty and stress census title to a is sports effective instruction, and that's also used to increase achievements will prove the quality and factors of teachers principles, etc. increase the numbers to and provide low income of minority students greater access to those teachers so it gets money that's directed towards those those kids who struggle a little bit more. So title for his student support academic enrichment, and I have to read this one because I don't know what it is. It provides funds to improve students academic achievement by increasing the capacity of states and local education is to provide all students with an axe all students with an access to well run an education, improve school conditions for student learning, and you improve the use of technology. So they're all they're all kind of, you know, we're obviously working to get get kids to do better. Title, the federal title monies are meant to supplement state money, they are not meant to supplant state money so they can't be used in place of state money they have to be used on top state money. The, just kind of make a quick jump to the, the relief money's that came out of the cares act the CRSA act. The CRF money coronavirus relief funds, the extra monies extra one and answer to which is education secondary school emergency relief funds, I recall the acronym correctly. Those do not have a supplement versus a plan restriction on it like the titles do today. So you can use those in place of state money if it's not by the federal folks. So what I did on this handout is, I compiled the three titles that we're talking about there are other titles to we get title three which is ghost for ELL kids English language learners. I'm in a couple of I carry with title five is I think we have I'm not sure if we get money for that one or not, but I don't include those in there because they're not necessary to everybody. So, but the three that we're talking about one, two and four kind of go to all all school districts in Vermont because Vermont is so small, our school districts are small. We have got made it made an agreement with the federal government that our local education agencies are not the school districts, but our access supervisor unions were supervisory districts as the case may be. So that's that's really the level we're talking about we're up one notch from the school district level. So, when we combine on the sheet now, when we combine the three titles together it's it's about 49.7 million roughly right around that much money. I then took those dollars I and again I had them up by SU, I then took those dollars dollars and divided by the actual fiscal year 21 average daily membership count. This is the count that you pat that you held harmless at the end of the session at the end of, I guess I should say spring, last year when you said that the count use for the equalized pupils will be no less than the FY 20 count. So with the numbers that are on the sheet in the third to the last column where it says FY 21 ADM, those are the real counts that came in. Those numbers are down roughly 4400 from FY 20, largely big piece of that is because pre K kids did not were not sent to schools as they counted for about 1700, and then the roughly 2700 others. I think there's a lot of homeschooling going on from what I've heard there are some increase in some private schools but I think it was largely home schooling. My guess is I don't know this for a fact my guess is that next year those numbers are going to bounce back up, but at the moment this is where they are so if FY 21 we're at a total roughly 82200 ADM. I remind everybody and for anybody that's listening out in the rest of the world, ADM stands for average daily membership. It is a count of the students who are publicly funded resident students were publicly funded in a school district. It's an average count over a 20 day period. If a student is publicly funded for 20 days they are one ADM. If a student is in that district for only 15 of the days that 20 days since this period, then their ADM count is 0.753 quarters. That's how that's how it works. So we're saying ADM it's it's similar to a headcount but it's not a real headcount. It's an average over 20 days. So what I did in column two and I apologize, I just realized that I'm not up with the columns. I'm going to stop you for one second. I want I think I just want to make sure that we're looking at everybody is aware of what the document is and I think what I'm going to do is Jesse asked you to bring it up. I think we need to do that. Brad I'm sorry, could you direct me to which document it is. It is the one that is titled. Oh gosh, what is it called federal allocations I think let me I have it on my screen somewhere. It's called federal allocations and data. I believe. That's great. Thank you. Just a moment. That's right. I have done the bottom two. I just realized that. So, so, I just want to represent of James. Did you have a question. I do. Thanks chair web. Brad. In the second to the last column title one poverty ratio. So it what it what is that stat exactly. That is the ratio of. Let me back up when we receive information from the federal government for title one, they send us counts of formula children. And that's kids in poverty. And then they also send us counts of the population of that school district are going to get that lea again, our supervisor. And that's the, the children, the students ages five through 17. And so what that ratio is is the ratio of the formula kids against the pop, the total count. In the case of the first line is that is in central 8.49%. That means that of those that total five to 17, eight population and that's in that district, or that supervisor union to about 8.5% or fit that federal definition for poverty. So if we were to sort of back up and walk through through this, I think that we probably got a little bit lost in the process. So if we started back, let's go through column got by column. Okay, let's do that. My apologies I jumped ahead, which is normal for me. And again I apologize I did not number the column I should have the first column is total of FY 21 title one allocation. Oh, no Jesse that's the other one. Yep that's that's not cool that's that's that's the initial one I sent out I believe there's a bear with me I'll get the other one right up. I think this one just say version two at the end of it. What you're just seeing we've seen the individual titles. Yes, that's the one. Correct. And if you can make a little larger. There we go, can you see that one now. Thank you Jesse. Okay. And representative James just you know the last column you're just asking is on the end of this one to the poverty ratio for title one. Okay, so the very first column total of FY 21 title allocations. That is the combination by by supervisory union of title one title to a and part for title for farming. Okay, that's that's that's that's um for each for the state as a total as a whole it's about 49.649.7 million dollars. So the second column title to our FY 21 title allocations per ADM. That is just the first column divided by the FY 21 ADM which you'll see over to the right, third column from the right. Right. And that's in the so the statewide number is 604 dollars per per ADM everybody with me so far. That's what it averages out to for the for the whole population. And as if the state were a single district. Yes, it's not it is not the averages of those is basically a weighted average for all practical purposes. It's the state as a whole. Representative Brady. I just want to make sure I'm super clear that when we look at those title allocations that has nothing to do with COVID those would have been there this year regardless of what we're talking about. Thanks. That's correct. That's correct. So these are the ongoing funds. These are not one time funds these are ongoing funds that district that are available to school based on their, their title numbers. That's correct. Okay. Other questions at the moment. And again that that first that first sheet which I'll be happy to send out to everybody just broke the titles out individually. That Jesse had up. So then the third column says total of Esther and CRF amounts. These are the relief funds that came from the two first to relief acts on cares and CRSA person or whatever the acronym is for it. So it consists of the coronavirus relief fund money, which, which was set to expire on December 3 at the end of December 30 2020. And then on December 27, I think it was Congress passed that legislation I believe was signed and then it was extended for about another year, the use of CRM money. Most of it was used up at the beginning because people knew that there was a deadline with it. And this also has Esther one, which came out of the cares act along with the carriage money. And then it has Esther two in there to which is just which has not been released in the school districts yet. I'll come back to that in just a second. Esther one was used mostly by is being used mostly by school districts after they use their CRF money because CRF money was a little bit more restrictive and what its uses were for. And it had a, a deadline that was sooner than the Esther one monies. Esther one, I'm trying to remember how much money that was now. I believe that was around just just under $30 million I think to the school districts 29 something like that. That that money is is is Esther money is a little bit more flexible what it can be used for. So a lot of districts, my understanding is that they were using some of it to backfill some of the CRF monies that we're going to expire on December 30. And so like if they hired teacher with CRF money for the first half their first after some sort, they're going to pay that person with Esther one monies the second half of semester. Again, I don't necessarily know everything that they're using this or money for people taking that money down using it. Stop. Oh, as Esther Esther to it came out in the with the second really fact, and that to school districts is around $126 million I think off the top of my head. We are we being the agency are looking at some type of summer school districts, hoping to use some of that money for that which I believe a lot of school districts thinking of my understanding and I'm not part of these discussions so I can't speak well about much about them. But my understanding is that a lot of will be used for summer schools, getting kids back up to speed looking at special education needs as time progresses at school start to open again they're going to find out what the kids need I think they could I think the ideas to use a lot of these two monies to really focus on that. I believe that the agency will be coming out with a broad plan in the next couple of weeks that's my understanding again I'm not part of the conversations I don't know for a fact that that's what I've heard from folks in the agency. So that column that says total investor and CRF amounts that's almost 204 million dollars it's a significant amount of money. The, again, when you divide by the average daily membership. So with in round numbers roughly $2,500 per pupil that's that's how much each SU has for professionals that for people I apologize for ADF is analogous to a pupil but not exactly the same. So that's kind of giving you a rough idea of what what each district is getting. Okay, I'm going to stop you for just one second so, and then I know we have a couple of questions I have one first. So as we're looking at that this at this. This document. We're seeing that we have title one funds, which are ongoing, and we can see in the last column that on an ongoing basis. These school districts have access to title one funds. On a one time basis, they have access to the funds in the in the answer and CRF. The other one was a little bit handier for me because it broke it down into the different categories with which I appreciate it but if we were to look at this we would see let's go down to say, as it's Westford school district and 51. If I'm to understand this that district that has 3725 ADM received will we should receive 5.2 million. And that will end up being approximately based on the whole ADM for this year between title one and federal and the one time funds 1300 $1400 per student. If you look up at Essex North, that district, given the same ratios will receive 3800 per ADM. So for this year, when you combine the title one and the one time funds. They have that available for probably the next couple of years. Yes, the, the, again, CRF was largely used CRF was not formula driven. And I think I forgot to put this out there early CRF was not formula driven that was basically based on budgets that people said this is what we need to spend money on. You as a legislature and gave us X number of dollars out of the program out of the CRF money to for the school districts, and they basically wrote budgets for that and have been, you know, adjusting to budgets as time has progressed, both as or one as or two and what will become Esther three with the new act that was signed just that was past just I think yesterday. So those monies are formula driven into how much that goes out to each school district. And they're based there. It's a lump sum of money for Vermont. And the allocations are based on the percentage of title one money each of the issues gets as a percentage of the state. So if it if an SU gets 2% of the state title one money, it would get 2% of the Esther amounts. Okay, which is what we're talking about. Thank you representative answer. I don't need to go first. I just have a clarifying question of others to jump in. Okay, representative James. I was just wondering, I know we haven't gotten to this column yet, but wondering how the poverty ratio is determined, because that it seems a lot lower than percentages I'm used to seeing for like free and reduced lunch for example. And it's not in another file that I sent out the bigger file that these data are pulled from I actually have that information in the background. The free and reduced lunch numbers that we have are actually not numbers that you'd see on that file either what you would see are the poverty counts based on what statute tells us to do for the equalized pupil count. And it's a poverty ratio and those those those data come from the Department of Children and Families, and it is it is based on the number of children ages six through 17 living with families in Vermont, receiving nutritional benefits in Vermont that's three squares from us. So, so it's a different count than what we're seeing here. I don't know enough about poverty and how it's counted at either our level, DCS level or at the federal level to be able to tell you what the differences are between them. I do think in general that the poverty ratio and title ones are a little bit lower than what you used to see in terms of the DCF data. I don't know as I can speak to why that is representative cornheiser. Thanks. I appreciate that you don't know the details of the program that we is working on to sort of support learning loss. But I just my, my memory of the SR and the CRF funds is that essentially school districts get to make the bulk of the decisions about how they spend them. Is that still true. That's correct with the newer money coming out that just past Congress there, there's more of a focus on addressing learning loss I think 20%. I think just 20% of the SR three money is going to be dedicated towards learning loss and we as an agency with our, with our reserve have that same requirement to use 20% of that. And so districts get to decide what that means to them on some level still within specifications and what you all are doing is just as supportive guidance of some kind. That's yes I believe that's correct. Thank you. Thank you. So I just want to be sure I'm understanding the columns and so the, I totally get the first two columns that's that's the baseline. Understand that. I think I understand the next two, which is as what you're calling us or one and S or two. Right. And CRF so you've got two answers in there. I'm dying to know what we're going to call the new one, but the way. S or three. S or three that's going to be very. I was actually looking at the summary of the new relief film they still call it. They still call it. So we've got, we've got S or one and S or two and that third column, and then the next two columns add those together. The one to the fourth to the fifth column. Yes, total allocation amounts. Yes. Yeah. So what we have outstanding though is S or three is not represented anywhere here. That's correct. That's a separate step, right? So if we're trying to understand how much in the way of resources that school districts have and how it's distributed. We have two thirds of the story here. Half the story. I would say probably half the story. I, again, based on the summary that I saw last night and pleased to hold me to this figure. The amount of money going, the amount of S or three money going to school districts after the, after we have our reserve held back use for our purposes to help them. I want to say it's around $256 million. It's a sizable piece of money. So this, this is great. And it's really interesting, but it's about half the story. My clumsy math. And then finally, the questions around the poverty ratio are really important. I don't know if this is the right setting to really delve into those, but as poverty becomes a more and more significant driver of how resources get allocated. It really does matter how we define it and that we understand it and have confidence in it. So I just say that asking for any kind of insight about it, but I think it's a, I think it's important to have a discussion about it. What I would do represents is I will, I will check into what, what the federal definition of poverty is that they're using for title one for these numbers that you're seeing on this. And there's been some question on some of the DCF data also. So I'll look at it and look at it also. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Hopefully mind just a quick clarifying question. If we move from the top statewide figure gray bar to the next district, which is Addison Central, and the column that is total of Esser and CRF amounts. I'm going to account the formula that is applied to Esser one and two, as opposed to just multiplying ADM times the amount per ADM that was calculated in the bar above. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. Okay. So the, when you apply the Esser amounts to each district, you use the Esser formula, which is largely the title one formula. Yes. And again, those are in the background that you can't see in this file. Thank you. I have to give you the big file that just will be more information, which is probably more detail. Representative Austin. Yes. Thank you. I have the same questions that representative Ansel had as well. I'm curious about, you know, the definition of poverty and poverty ratio I'm just wondering the title one funds bring, do they bring students identified as a poverty range up? Is it up to per pupil spending? I mean, what does that money add it to? What's the end point? What's its based on? That makes sense. It is supplemental to what the school district is choosing to spend for people. Now, you, when, when, when you're usually hearing about numbers should be on spending for people and things like that. Well, we're really talking about at that point 99.9% of the time is what's called education spending per equalized people. Education spending is a subset of the budget and the budget is the base of the total amount of money the school district will be spending. When districts build budgets, they also, and expenditure budget, they also build a revenue budget. And within that revenue budget are dedicated revenues for certain things. One of those are the title monies. They're, they also get special education aid, they get transportation aid, they may get small schools grants, they may have tuition coming in, they may have a surplus. There's lots of other little pots of money floating around. When you take all those pots of money, those revenues lump together, I tend to call them offsetting revenues. When you take the offsetting revenues and subtract them from the overall budget total, you get what's called education spending and that's in statute. Education spending is the number that gets divided by equalized people's and that drives people's tax rates. To answer your question, as to what the federal money is getting added on top of, I would think that it would be probably an amount, if you look at any single district, their education spending per equalized people, I would think it would be an amount more fair than that because they have other monies in there, exclusive of the federal monies. But basically, it's on top of the money that they're spending from the state and from any local source they happen to have. It's on top of that. I don't think there's a target that they're trying to reach in terms of the amount of money they're spending per pupil. I think it's just they're looking at this is what we need to spend to get this program to get these kids up speed additional help for them, things like that. I don't think it's a target. I'm not an expert on it. And so you probably want to talk to people in the field or perhaps other people at AOE if you really want more detailed information on that. Okay, thank you. Representative cornheiser. No representative Murphy. Thank you. I'm wondering if you can just answer this question for me. I'm looking at the towards the top of the chart to districts that are next to each other Benton, Rutland and Burlington. And if I look at the column in the far right I see their poverty ratios are pretty similar, close to 15%. And then if I look back at the title allocations per EDM, I see that Burlington is more than twice what Bennington Rutland has. So, so that's a question one and then second question is, then I look at the next set of columns at the answer and CRF dollars, and see that that it's more like closer to three times difference differential there than Bennington Rutland. So, can you just quickly explain that I because I thought the poverty ratio, I thought I heard you say the poverty ratio was driving the title numbers anyway, title dollars. It looks like there's something else going on there. They are but but to get into the real detail I would have to go back and look at it each of those which I won't so happy to do but I'll be happy to do it for you. I would, I would need to delve into that and see, see what's going on there's, you know, what basically what I did is I there's a whole harmless provision in there I don't think that would account I'm on the title section, by the way. There's entitled one there's a whole harmless provision in there. I don't think that would account for that much of a difference that roughly doubling factor that you're seeing there but I would have to look into it individually at each of those and see what's happening in the calculation itself. And then that calculation, whatever happens in title one actually carries over to title four, because the title four allocation is actually based on the title one allocation. There's a different amount but it's based on that percentage. And then title to is based on. It's a little bit different in space and 80% of power of 80% is based on poverty 20% is based on enrollment so that's going to factor into it too. But again, I would have to go in and look and see what's happening each one to give you a real explanation for it. Okay, thanks. In terms of the the Esther and CRF monies, I should say esters and CRF money. A lot of that is depending on what they chose and what they asked for in CRF, Burlington asked for a significant amount in CRF I don't recall what Bennington Rutland asked for but my guess is it probably wasn't as much as Burlington was so that that would impact that. Plus, the ratios that are slightly different in terms of title one percentage is the state of a whole state but the percentage as a state of the state as a whole try English here. I'll have to look into those. It's also important to look at the FY 21 ADM and just see that that also this is based on different calculations of what the ADM is Burlington. Good point. I completely missed that one too. Yeah. So we ended up, you know, looking at it by ADM. So that's not how money is distributed it's distributed by the formula, then we just looked at we looked at then we asked Brad to look at then how does that compare, you know, per 80. And that's, that's, thank you representative web because I completely spaced out on that one I should have known that right away. First of all, but that's not quite a doubling in Burlington everybody. Thank you very much. Thank you. Are there other questions. This point or Brad, do you want to keep moving along. Sure. And again, I don't mind being interrupted at any time so that's fine. So we did we did the total of titles and the titles per ADM we then did the total of Essers and CRF and then per ADM. And then that last call is basically the total of the two. They're, they're slight rounding differences in there so things aren't going to add up exactly right. So I did the same total allocation amounts that probably just said total federal amounts that would probably been clear as to what I meant right there. But that that is all the titles and all the, the, the Essers and Essar one and two, and the CRF monies added together and then then again divided by the ADM count for So that and kill, for example, got a little over a million dollars. With a population ADM of about 400 students. And if we add that up, basically what the district got per student was about $3,000 per student. Burlington. We see a little bit of almost 15 million. With a total population of 3581, which adds up to about $4,800 per student. And I, and I, you know, I'm looking at something that is the, if you were to count columns one total title one allocation or title allocations and column three total of Essar and CRF, and compare that to the allocate total and they're not exactly adding up the same and they should be, they're close, but it's bothering me now because I should not have made that should I should have checked that and apparently did not so I will probably I will look at this file a little more closely and revise it because I'm going to look at the last, if we look up at Addison Central, the very first one, it ends in 144 and the first column, the third column is in 124 that should add up to 868. And that's not what I'm seeing is last three digits in the total allocation column. I don't know what I did. I will need to check that the numbers are close but they're not exact and that is not good. Thank you. I think I think we're still the same general, you weren't saying area. So we can have the same discussion it's just I will make sure I will update these numbers and figure out what I did incorrectly, something. Thank you represent of course. Thanks. Am I hearing you correctly that for some of this money, it wasn't necessarily about what communities were sort of technically do but the how much they were able to ask for. The CRF money was what what the school districts. I should I should say it was at the SU level but it's based on the school districts, what they thought they needed that that's what it was. And it was it was a fairly wide range. And sort of connected on some level to their capacity to request. Probably. Okay. But the SR just goes out automatically regardless of requests or paperwork. Okay. Great. Thank you. It's for me. Okay. In some ways, I kind of liked it better when you broke up the answer and see her personally. You could you could have Jesse pull that other one up, which has has has told it. I don't think I broke. I did not break them out for pupil. Yeah, if you want to see the totals. Jesse couldn't bring that on the one that she had up initially had the two yellow columns in it Jesse. That one was a little easier to follow. Representative Austin and then Brady. Was the three point plus million dollars that we allocated to Burlington High School for the renovation for their move. Is that in this amount. No, that that came out out of the state reserve that we set aside the federal law allowed us to set aside 10% of the extra monies. And that's what we did and came out of that. Thank you. Representative Brady. Thanks well answer my first question because I found you how much was the CRF the part that was maybe a little bit more arbitrary in terms of how much districts got. But I also just, I guess I'm it's sort of a question more for the members here. I think we have to be a little careful about talking about total federal dollars coming in to make sure that we peel the existing title funds out of that that we should be talking about CRF SR one SR two and now SR three when we talk about this massive and which is still it's massive but this massive influx of investment and dollars into schools. It seems a little conflated to me to put title monies in that because those are monies they would have had regardless and needs that exist regardless. But maybe I'm reading something wrong there. No, that's what that is what you're exactly right that is what I did. I put all federal monies together that one column. Right there wrong way that's what I did. And what what just quick quick segue, what you're looking at right now is basically the same data, except for whatever mathematical mistake I made in the background. But it what it's showing is it's showing the individual title amounts for title one to a and four in the first three columns and it shows what people requested to to address represent cornheiser's question for CRF, and then it shows and then it shows SR two. So those and again, we don't have extra three information yet. And then the time they have told on occasion which is addressing your, your question represent a break I could easily break it out and show show it separately with the total of the titles and the total of the relief funds. I think it's here I just think we have to be careful about which column and we're talking about new federal dollars which column we're using. I think we can take a look at this and break it out a little bit differently and ask Brad to to to differentiate that a little bit more so we can get the sort of sense of what the ongoing monies are and the one time funds. So, Emily, a new hand got sorry one one final question here. So you know when you will have numbers on SR three I know it hasn't even been quite signed yet but I know our staff is sort of working curiously to try to find their way through and not trying to rush you just trying to have a sense of when we'll have an information. I think I think as soon as we know officially what are what our allocation is coming to Vermont. I can do it within two minutes after that. I mean, again, I believe it's around $256 that million if I'm memory serve me correctly. I think one way of thinking about it is Esther to is giving each SU roughly four times what they got from Esther one. Esther three is rough roughly double Esther two. So after three about eight times what they got in answer one. So just as just as rough as the people, but it's but as soon as we get the final numbers I can do the numbers quickly. But I think we heard from the secretary last year in a meeting that there were title one funds that were being returned to the federal government because they had not been spent. And I think we also heard from school districts that they sometimes have problems because they're working on their contracts for personnel, but don't necessarily find out their title one until July. And wondering, and when we have had folks in our room that work on a national level, their eyebrows raised when we hear they hear that federal funds are being returned. Do you have any understanding of why and how much money we are returning. And then again, what we can do so that we are not doing that. I think I can address the why I think you need to talk to people in the in the field who have had to return money. I don't think I can do that and do it justice. The federal money does have a time period, you know you get it for one year and then there's with the tidings and I said I think it's good for I want to say three years. So what business office does is any time a request comes in for reimbursement for using title one as an example. They will take that they take that request reimbursement and use the oldest money first. So they're so that that's what they're doing so they're trying to ensure that no money is going back there's things be a backlog. So that's the question of our business office roughly how much is going back on an annual base this had not lots of probably maybe a couple hundred thousand dollars I haven't gotten a final figure but I think that would be probably more than is what's really going back. But our business office is very good about using the oldest money first. They make that a priority. We have reached out, I think it was back in the summer, maybe the summertime sometime during this time. We did try to put information together to help to help school districts see what different sources of federal fund dollars they had exclusive of the old money and CRF money, and how what they could be used for it so it's kind of compiled into a certain place and it was pointed out to that, you know, old money needs to be used, but to really address why it's not getting used up right away. I don't, I don't know. I can't address that and say that I'm right. Thank you. Representative cornhizer. Sorry social social lowers our hands for us and I'm spoiled now. Okay, Brad was there more. I don't I think in terms in terms of the federal monies I think that's pretty much what I had to say. I will and again as I said I apologize for making some crazy mathematical error in there. And I'll figure out what I did wrong and have that corrected and get that posted by Jesse and send it up to you all. One of the things that I was going to talk about ways and means the other day and then represent the actual athlete postponement was the update on school budgets in terms of spending and such you heard from Susie Glasgow the budget votes themselves when if representative answer would like me to I'll be happy to to talk about that. What we're where we stand in terms of education spending that. Yeah. This is what feeds into what Mark and Brianna are working on that hopefully they'll have tomorrow they want to check numbers out make sure that they were right. In terms of the effort because these numbers go into the education education spending. Jesse would you bring up the one before we take that down though I wanted to represent of elder and then represent Williams. Yeah I just put my hand up Brad yeah I before we moved on I just wanted to speak to this the poverty weights and title one which is already been spoken to in ways that I agree with but just to see if I can summarize it and see if I've got it right. We measure poverty in several different ways. In school districts of course the free and reduced lunch is something where we see eligibility drives. And so that's one thing for our equalized pupil weights that poverty weight is not based off free and reduced which actually was a misconception I previously had some of our school administrations had. That is based on the DCF number and that would be in Vermont statute should the legislature choose to to change that to be the to go off say free and reduced. Those happen to have the same eligibility three squares and free and reduced but the different application. That as I understand it we could change. Finally there's this title one which as I understand it is similar to the DCF number but maybe with some other elements. And so that's one question is the title one number really the same as the DCF number you get for equalized that that's kind of question one and then question two is. Is there anything statutorily at the state level that can be done to change title one because it would seem that title one allocation is probably not just derived from Vermont statute in the way that our equalized pupil weight is. So that's kind of three different ways of measuring poverty and I'm just trying to see if I'm understanding the distinctions. Yeah, I would I would say that title one and the DCF numbers are not the same. I'm going to take a look at those and there's there's significant difference in places why I don't know but they're they're not the same. Again, as I said, I don't really know. I think comes out of us census data where the poverty numbers come from from title one, the federal folks. I will have to check in that and ask guys I imagine somebody in our agency probably knows that I'll check them first. Otherwise I'll be in touch with the feds and ask them. Well, they know there's nothing we can do at the Vermont level to change the what the federal folks are doing with their title one parties. I'm going on a limb here because I'm not an attorney by any means, but it's but that's federal law and we can't do anything about that. It's written in the legislation at the federal level. So the first two though, the, the, we could choose to unify the way we count poverty for our poverty weight in our equalized people. And we could choose to identify that with food service eligibility rather than three squares that that is a choice we could make us to unify those two is that right. Yes, I think that is correct and I think you want to look into how FRL is is done, because in some cases, you know, if there's a certain number of kids, I can't know what it is, maybe 40% in a school district that are eligible then the whole school becomes eligible so I, yeah, you, I think you need to look into it but yes I think you can do that if you so choose representative Williams. Yes, I'm sorry this is just a housekeeping that I thought I'd like to help Brad out with why his math and add up. If you look at the previous chart, and if you add the money columns one plus three plus six, you get column five, somehow column six got thrown in there. I appreciate that I did I did it quickly and, and I normally go back and check things and I did not on that one. No problem. Thank you very much. Sure. Thank you representative back. Yeah, Brad regarding the title one measurement for poverty that the federal government uses they in any way factor in the cost of living. What are the different locations, different locations in there. I'm not I'm not 100% certain representative back I'm a title one does have some fun, some different things in there it's the title one allocation acts it comes from four different formulas that get aggregated together to make the total allocation. I'll have to go in and look carefully what those four are I do I have it written down somewhere I thought it was too much information send out for this but I'll dig that out. Okay, and the same, the same question for the, the poverty measurement that's used to determine equalized pupil waiting as well. I don't think we include cost of living in that calculation, but I just curious. I don't think it's equalized pupil calculation itself in terms of what DCF is doing in the county and I don't think they do either actual count of who's living in families receiving three. Okay, that was my question about it DCF sensitizes for cost of living at all. Not to my knowledge. Okay. Okay, Brad. And you want to continue. Yeah, but they're going to be other people on this one besides me. No. Okay, so, so are there any questions on this before we kind of switch gears and go to what will what I've seen for preliminary preliminary budget data. I think we can move forward. Okay. So Jesse is the one that says preliminary budget it's called f y 22 pre budgets than 0309 21 looks like that. That's it. Thank you. So ways of means that has been is used to seeing this, the sheet. So if they will humor me for a moment, I'll kind of give a very quick overview of it to to house and because I don't think you have a goal of seeing this before. This is a summary of preliminary budget data that comes in. We ask school districts, once they have a board approved school budget for f y 22 or whatever you're talking about to send in that data to us so that we can get a rough idea of what the demand is going to be on the education fund for coming up. If you recall, if I recall, back for the December one letter. We had a, I had an estimate of their first spending increase I want to say 3.49% I think maybe someone remembers I don't also. Okay, 3.8. Okay. Um, so that that that was based on what that that number for the December one letter was based on what business manager told me they thought was going to happen at that point. So it's, it's an estimate. Once again, then we asked people to send in their information, once they have a preliminary budget. And at this point the number of budgets were expected is right there at the top is about 117 I think that's counted two of the unorganized towns and wars, but yeah, we have received just over 92% of the preliminary budget as of today, or as of what's the day today's the level to think as of two days ago as of the ninth. So, what you're seeing these kind of slightly yellowish sections are just what happened on the 10th of February the 18th of February and the 25th of February so it's I'm just showing kind of history so if you scroll down to the very last one please Jesse yep that one, the brighter one. The, the, I was about to point at my computer screen that won't help anybody. The one that says March 9 21. So the first thing is we have 108 districts reporting, and that's out of 117 that's why we're that 92% of reporting comes in. The part that we really care about is read where it says initial education spending of those of those 108 districts that submitted data. We, they have education spending that's the number that goes into the education fund of $1.34 billion with a B dollars. Okay, in. If you look right across to the right where it says same an FY 21. Everybody see that one is in black right at the end of the red. If you go down to the initial education spending you'll see the number one, one, three, two, three, blah, blah, blah. That is how much money those how much education spending those same 108 school districts had in FY 21. So as 1.32 billion is now 1.34 billion, that's a 1.29% increase in education spending. So December one letter was based on as representative back said 3.8% it's coming that it's coming in significantly lower. You can that the two just above the expenditures and the offsetting revenues the expenditures, you can see that they're up to 1.5% over FY 21 so 1.66 versus 1.62 offsetting revenues though, are up almost 8%. And you can see that it's 322 million this year is reported by the 108 versus 299 million from same districts last year. I think what's happening is a lot of districts have had money left over at the end of FY 20 and did not instead of rolling that cover it with CRF money it's like we thought they were going to do and rolling it forward to offset the FY 21 education fund as as you put in legislation. They just kept it as a surplus and are using it in FY 22. So it looks my guess is and I don't know the surface that because I haven't really talked to business managers normally seen the data. My guess is this is probably a one time they're using kind of one time money to really suppress things down because of what everybody thought was going to happen with the education fund. Subsequently to that separate one letter the education fund revenues came came out much more favorably. And again that's what Mark and Brianna will talk about when they come when they have an updated balance sheet. And I believe they're incorporated this number into it plus the estimates what those who do not report. So all in all is it's much more favorable than December one letter and as Susie Glowski said earlier on I think you all coming out early passing the bill out of the House Ways and Means Committee saying that we think that the education fund is much higher than we anticipated back on December one and that the yield is is much higher which drives down tax rates if everything else is equal that I think that that did a lot to getting all but three budgets passing so far and one of them I know the big one was close to what. So I think I think the news here is that that the districts were listening they did have money left over I believe and again I don't know that for fact I think is they did have money left over from FY 20 that they're using to push down the FY 22 education spending. And that's why we're seeing a lower increase of 1.29% as opposed to what we anticipated what we estimated 3.8% earlier. So just to be clear, in terms of the difference between the title one funds and the answer funds on the information that we're looking at here. Title one funds have to supplement not supplant. However, answer funds could have resulted in doing so here. Yes, they could have. But I don't I don't think and there's active business manager meeting tomorrow. And if I have time I'll sit on that I can ask this question. I don't think many of them put answer funds into their budgets at this point. And the reason I say that is because really what most of them have right now they don't have any extra money because we have not put out applications for that yet they may be anticipating and put in their budgets. And it's possible that's in there but but I I'd be a little surprised if it was, but I'll ask them and find out if that money isn't there then yes, you're quite correct. That is also pushing the education spending down representative cornheiser. And then similarly CRF money could have supplanted spending from last year's budget that rolled over into this year. Yes, okay, even though the CRF was but thanks. Yeah. Representative Austin. Yes. Thank you, chair what I'm just wondering if you know what the anticipated Cola percent will be in FY 22. I don't. I don't. You don't. Okay, thank you. Yeah, from a school board member perspective. Brad's take on it is exactly right. There was a lot of leftover money, at least in our district we applied a fair portion of that to keep our per pupil spending down, which resulted in less pressure on the Ed fund. And a lot of those surpluses were not your answer really played a role CRF probably did, and then even more so, just the lack of school activities from March to the end of the school year. That's that's that's what I've heard to represent column. You know, you know your district quite well. Okay. I'm not seeing other questions and I think that's the last document that you were going to show today. Brad is that correct. I believe so yes. Thank you. I know that we are going to want to take a look at your document again have a little bit better understanding of just the title funds, and just the answer funds and how that how that breaks down. Rather than a total which I had, I had actually asked you to do but I realized that's not what's helpful as breaking it down. I can do that easily. And it sounds like folks are interested in finding out a little bit more about how title one is calculated. And we can certainly do that. And Jesse I'll talk with you later about getting someone from AoE, or it may be a hs to help us understand how that's allocated, at least in our committee. Are you ready to dismiss us? I think we are. Great so really helpful information and I'm glad that we had a chance to look at it together because of this, this movement of all this federal money is, it's a, it's pretty significant and important to begin to get a handle on it. And then we can go to ways of means if you could gather in, I don't know, 10 minutes, 10 minute break so 10 of 10 of 11. That would be great. See you, see you all then thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for your questions. Thank you. So at committee. We have the next group is on at 1110. So I think we can wait until then. Is there anything in terms of additional data that we would want in looking at this with Brad, this data. If you want to state what you're looking for you can do it now or email me. And we'll organize that information represent Brady. I think that I mean it's already been said but I think understanding the poverty calculations is really important not not just for this but for so much of our work. Yeah, and then I think second to like what you offered there. Peter is is helpful, but to have it if there's a sense statewide more how much, how much was, you know, saved how much was driving down tax rates in the current year. And so basically how much is still there to be spent. It's a, you know, I don't know, to what extent we can even know that, but I'd love to have a sense of what you know about your district more across the state. Yeah, I think you're right. Aaron that it would take a survey of every district individually to see how much of their surplus they applied how much they might have moved into a reserve account. And I didn't raise my hand to respond but I did but actually I do want to respond to something else, representative Brady said earlier, and that is sort of moving the discussion about title money to the side. No matter what happens, regardless of COVID or not, I guess I agree with that, sort of moving in that direction as well. Excellent. So Brad, you've got those Jesse will will find out a little bit more about how it's calculated. And I think with that we can take a little break until 1110 correct Jesse is that right. That's exactly right. Okay. Thanks so much Brad. This is really interesting and even though that you know it's not 100% down to the penny it's, it gives us a sense of what's going on and I think that that's most helpful to us is really to have sort of a broad sense. Yes, yeah, no problem and thank and sorry, thanks for finding out what I did wrong. It was the Excel sheet it's always the. It's always something. I pride myself on numbers but I guess not anymore. So, what I think I think maybe what I'll do for you if it would help is, it sounds like you still want to see the title numbers or we can just ignore them entirely. But what I was thinking of doing is having like I showed you on that last one, the three columns of those three titles, and then a total and then per ADM for that. And then the three, the three federal monies the CRF the SR one and two and then a total and the money and a pradium on that, if that would be helpful. So would you like Sears that's still too much. Yeah, this year was applied to FY 20. Correct. Yeah, most of it. Well, it's hard to say because I haven't seen numbers and I'm not sure the budgets are being compiled on an Excel sheet so that I can actually pull information I think it's coming in as as PDFs for backup documentation on requests. But I think I think a significant amount of it was used in FY 20, but I think it's also a significant amount was used in FY 21 what what percentage is I don't know I could probably check with this marriage see but I bet it's I bet it's going to be across the board and very as represent Collins said, for any information district by district by district. Yeah. So Austin. Yes, I'm wondering in the waiting study report where the title one funds included in that calculation of poverty rates and weights. I don't recall. I have a question. I have asked her that question and she said yes. I'm not sure where it is, but she has said yes and I actually I'm going to follow up with with Tammy Colby. Okay, I think you probably had asked that representative where. Yeah, I just never saw how it how it was handled. But you remember represent common. I just know that I know that you did ask the question. Yeah, I actually just had I was just want to do while we have Brad here taking advantage of it. I just continue to be amazed at the amount of money that's about to be directed to schools and you know the answer to is a significant windfall for districts. Yeah, I think that's a very timely question. And I think that's what the response group is. There's a lot of expertise to these districts, especially the smaller ones, in terms of how to handle it, how to account for it, all of that. Yeah, I think that's a very timely question. And I think that's what the response group is. I forgot the term now, but the response. The group that's working on what to use these monies for recovery for, you know, the students who have lost quite a bit of to make make headway with them I think that's the idea. I don't think we have at this point at the best of my knowledge we've not come out with anything without guidance I think we're going to. I do not know how detailed it will be. I do not know if it will just be broad terms. I think one of the things that went out was an overall request for school districts to come up with a recovery plan. I'm not sure how much detail is asked for that or if there's any guidance on what the recovery plan should call again. I'm not pleading ignorance, although it's true. I'm not part of those discussions I don't know really what's going on. It would, it's easier to know when we're all in one building every day. We're not. We're not here today but I'm about one or two people, maybe three. So, so I just don't overhear conversations like I used to so I'm not 100% sure how I can find someone to talk to you about that if you'd like, but I don't know if if the agency as a whole is ready to roll it out or not at this point. So our school districts are much are very experienced in what to do when there really isn't enough money. They spend a lot of time trying to do less with more. Are our school districts going to need some kind of technical support. I'm thinking about some of our districts that all of a sudden have the availability of a influx of one time money. Are they going to need technical support on how to address that. Probably. But I would say that everybody has to remember this not just free money to use for any purpose that all has to be COVID-19 related. I think sometimes people forget that in the conversations that I hear where there is not being stated clearly. But it has to somehow be related to COVID-19 response. I don't. And again, I don't know what is going to happen in this new ester three money, whether there change anything what I saw and kind of it was an overview from the CC SSO chief council of schools, state officers, whatever that stands with secretaries throughout the country of education. It didn't talk about Esther three being able to be used for other purposes. Esther funds can be used for interrupted learning. Yes, they can. And I think I think that's the idea is to use it for that. I just want to make sure that people are aware that it has to be the interactive learning is because of COVID no question about it. So it can be certainly be used for that. But it's just it's not, you know, I think some people think that a lot of money coming we can use for this. I think that's not quite the case representative Brady is Ted Fisher are one to ask in terms of once we get the details on how the money can and cannot be used what the rules are around it. It just seems like we might need a bit more info coming from him and in our updates about what it can be used for what kind of advice restrictions assistance is being sent out to schools. And he's being pulled back into the agency to deal with the next level but we do have in the room, who will certainly working with. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I'm not your tense the one for how the money can be used I think that's more the folks in a her did her deal with Esther. And I, you know, that's fall under and born there on Jesse Roy's they do the federal programs it's kind of fall under their wheelhouse. My wheelhouse happen to be the CRF money. I think Ted would probably have an idea of what the recovery plan might be when it's coming out. I think it would probably have an idea also. And I wonder if we went well I wonderful want to hear from either VSA or VSBA about capacity to deal with a disparate capacity and different types or sizes of districts. Kind of what their their sense of it is that even if it's just anecdotal I'm guessing they kind of have a sense of what may happen. Yeah, that's a really good point and we will be posing that to Susie Glowski she's not in the school board that superintendents they're not in the room at the moment, we are losing our access to Ted. We're just going to be going Jesse will be working on working with the agency and the agency will figure out who will provide testimony on the issues. So folks wouldn't mind emailing some of those questions to me. So I don't have to try to find them again. I would really appreciate it. We'll deal with my family memory representative James. Thanks. You know what I have lost track of. Also one Esther to Esther three and CRF. I would love a cheat sheet and maybe Brad this is in some of the stuff you sent today about when the funds have to be spent by when they'll be kind of hitting the districts I was surprised to kind of be reminded that the Esther to money isn't even available yet right. I could really use for all four of those funds just a little, you know, here's the name of the fund. Here's what it's in general can be used for. Here's when districts will have it. Here's how it's going to be. Here's who's going to decide and what that deadline is for spending. Yeah, that's not right. Not in anything like that out at this point but I but I can do that. I know that's one on one but I've I've lost track of that. I have to it's it's changed it's. I have to look it up. Yeah, yeah. I can say that the extra money. Well, I think I could say, I think the extra monies are good until September, as or one until September 30 of 2022. I think I think as it goes out another year, but I'll, I'll get that information. That's what I remember to 923. Yeah, we've a lot of our bills are adjusted based on that. I think if there isn't anything else we can take a little break. Please email your. Your questions about this so that we can get them in one place. And not in my brain. I appreciate that better resource with that we can go offline and take a break and come back.