 Okay. I'd like to welcome everyone to this meeting of the Community Preservation Act Committee. I'll call it to order at 6.02pm on Wednesday, November 10th, 2021. We are still meeting remotely at the request of town council, I believe. I'd first like to take attendance formally make sure everyone can hear, so please respond audibly when I call your name. Sam McLeod. Here. Andrew McGoogle. Present. Tim Neil. Present. Katie Zobel. Present. Eddie Startup. Present. Anna Devlin-Gothier. Present. Sarah Eisinger is not here, or at least not yet. Dave Williams will be absent. And I'm Sarah Marshall. Okay, so let's see. We have no, we have no minutes to review. That's partly my bad because Anna sent them to me like two minutes after the closing thing last week. Determined this time. Maybe one, maybe one minute. Okay, so I will send those out. Andrew owes us minutes I think, and I'm going to encourage Sam, who's taking them this week. I think that next week is the perfect opportunity for us to review them all. Okay, we have the public hearing might take a long time might not take a long time. I'll send on Anna's immediately. And if Sam and Andrew, Andy can do their best to. I'll try to be as brief as I can be. Well, there's, there's terse and then there's cryptic so try to, yeah. We can distribute those directly to the entire committee if you want, including Sonya, but if you just want to send them to her that's fine just ask her to distribute them. Okay. All right. I do we have any financial update. No, not at the moment. We haven't, haven't closed closed down some more projects to give us some more money. No, no, we're pretty solid there right now. Okay. All right. In that case, we are way ahead of schedule. I don't know. Yeah. The applicants for the high school track are in the audience yet. Yes. Okay, super. All right, so this just to remind anyone who's else is listening this is our final night of hearing the questions and answers presentations with the applicants. Next week on Thursday, November 18 will have our public hearing. We'll go over minutes. We'll talk about how the committee proceeds with its evaluation and then time permits we're just going to plunge right in. Okay. All right. Welcome Doug slaughter. Thank you for having me. So tell us about your track proposal. And notice we were in 15 minute blocks. So I'll, I'll, I'll keep things fairly short. I think there'll be a fair number of questions and, and follow up to sort of presenting things to begin with. But the short story is, and some of you are well aware of this and others are less so a few years back we did a master planning process in the town, relative to the, you know, recreational facilities throughout the downtown area. Many of which are owned by the town, many are also owned by the regional schools. And as a part of that one of the pieces of that puzzle was the, you know, the replacement of the current track that's at the high school on the, on the side of the building there and. So, right, I mean that project took a fair amount of time and, and, you know, we had come to you relative to some, some monies for design work which we got from you. Pelham also contributed some so thank you for that. And then COVID hit so it's sort of prevention the works unfortunately for us that track has continued to deteriorate and so it's it's presently really really rough shape if any of you've been out there if not hopefully saw an opportunity or took an opportunity to look at the photos that we sent along to show that really not in a place to allow for a home track needs. And so we really need to take action relative to that that that facility. You know, we would want to do it in concert with what's in that master plan process that happened in the downtown there's a phase one which reoriented the track and puts a field in the center of it. It actually if you know if we were in a perfect world would have, you know, seating and, you know, other amenities and that's worth thing. I think the reality where we sit at this point in time is such that we can't really go to that scale on the project. And so, you know what I, what I put together for you and put into your packet or into your into the proposal was just a project to resurface the track. I think that action, and it, and it implies, you know, not necessarily reorienting. I'd love to I think it's a, you know, a tremendous opportunity to really, you know, make a significant impact on those facilities, you know, that are that are available to schools but also available to the community at large and so we'd like to reorient but again we, we just need to take action on that. And as part of this, just to kind of broaden the picture a little bit of actions we're looking at here. One of the pieces back a couple years ago when the before the pandemic hit we were planning on doing a little bit of some additional preparatory work to get some of the estimates that that Western Samson had had put together for that master plan kind of narrow some of the, the, the costs around some of the aspects of that and you know so reorienting the track different options for field within on the interior of that. You know we're part and parcel that sort of initial little bit of extra work we wanted Western Samson to do. We're in the process of reengaging with them in that conversation and hopefully in the next, you know, four to eight weeks we'll have some more detail about what you know sort of their thoughts are on the on the particular costs of doing a fairly simplified or scaled back version of that phase one as they put it in the master plan. So that provides a little context or we're going here. So just, you know, like I said the tracks and in rough shape we do need to resurface it we feel, you know, it is an eligible CPA costs it is a community resource that we think is helpful. And so we, we made an ask, as far as how we came up with the size of the ask, you know, recently at frontier high school they redid their track. And they needed to sort of, you know, underneath the sort of rubberized surfaces of sort of black top they redid that and then put the rubberized surface on it is about $640,000 to do that that was just in place and so we have some additional we need to move some of the field events outside of the track to create, you know, safer environment for those as well as the added benefits and add some additional field space interior to track. And so that's why, you know, an estimate of about 800,000 was was was where we, you know, sort of place the number for for this request. So I think those are the main things I want to mention just to kind of bring up the speed tell you the thinking we have create, you know, some understanding around the urgency of why the ask and why we didn't necessarily explicitly talk orientation in that in that so much. So I'll leave it there I think, you know, Mr. Zomex here, you know, he and I have been working together and along with Sean McGonnell on the of this, you know, the town's finance director to talk about this and to engage with with Weston and Sam said about this larger sort of project and the master plan a little bit. And so I don't know if Dave has anything he would like to add relative to this or or not I'll yield to him for the moment. Thank you. Yeah, Dave is there anything you want to add at this time. Um, I think you I think you led that working group. Is that right. Right, right. For those folks on the call who are relatively new to to see back or to some of the recreation planning we, we did do a very extensive overall field plan we we as Doug indicated we we brought in this. Well, a reputable firm out of Boston, Weston and Samson, we pulled together folks from the schools from planning from DPW from the Amherst Rec Commission. And we spent about a year looking at the core fields those fields at the high school community field the middle school, and we actually included Wildwood because it's part of that core educational facilities. The grouping that we have in the in the center of town. And really what the conclusion of all that was, we need to invest in those core fields. And those are the really the future of our recreational foundation, and we need to come up with a plan so Western and Samson came up with that plan. It clearly was a was a was a was a vision, if you will, probably a 15 year plan but the first phase of that was to come up with a reorientation of the track, and to look at either a natural turf field in the middle of that track, or an artificial turf field in the middle of that track. And the reason for the orientation of the track is is really multi pronged one is that most tracks and more importantly fields, athletic fields, particularly in New England will are facing north south, so that goaltenders and players are not looking into the sun at various times of the year, but also the importance of reorienting that track it gives us much more flexibility with different field orientations to the west of the high school. So, I guess, Doug, I was hoping you could give the committee a little bit more. You know, we talked with Sean about kind of some contingencies or some some options. Yeah, you referenced that we're going to get some more information from Western and Samson I believe they're actually going to be out on Tuesday of next week, looking at the fields again with us. And I was kind of hoping you could give us I realize and I think everyone realizes the urgency of the track but how can we help see back to understand our decision making process here a little bit more once we have that information. We hope to have, you know, a solid cost estimate as to what reorienting the track north and south would cost, and then what it would cost in association with a natural turf field in the middle or an artificial turf field in the in the center of the track so can you give a little more information on how that might play out. Well, I think that, you know, with that additional information, you know, I think that that that we can strategize what's the what's the next best steps for us as far as a more intensive project in other words if we if we want to go with a reorientation which I think is, you know, the not reorienting the track as you sort of set the, the, you know, the, the orientation for a generation, it's going to be another 2025 years before we can come back to that so either the master planning process would have to be re envisioned around a different orientation or, you know, we sort of abandoned a component of that and move on to some other aspects of it. I personally would not like to see I think there's there's a lot of real positives to that reorientation factor. But I think the thing for us is, is, you know, like I said the urgency of the track surface is pretty critical and so we, we, you know, I, I know the superintendent's going to push me to move ahead through capital planning process if not through a CPA process to get that process redone. I certainly think that if the reorientation is the wiser choice and I think given the size of, you know, once we get some more detail from Western Samson I think we'll, we'll strategize on how best to approach that capital planning process whether it be through the, through the regional schools and, and their capital planning process maybe in concert with with working with the town I think we'll, we'll work with the finance director there it's town to see if, you know, depending I think that's the hard thing is the range of the resources we had previously in the master plan were, were pretty broad. I think we're trying to narrow the scope of some of the stuff that we're looking to do there to make it a little more of a constrained and focused on the fundamental facilities themselves. Some of the amenities would be, you know, something that we could, we could do later. And the other pieces that, you know, the, the, there are aspects of that kind of a project that wouldn't be CPA eligible so there. So we're, you know, obviously can't come to CPA to ask for, or a seating relative to do a field. That's worth thing but the track itself is, is, is an eligible cost. And I think that, you know, the CPA given the timelines of what we might find out more information and how we might strategize that that next step I think, you know, if the CPA, you know, the design money that has been already appropriated, you know, for this project was was related to a reorientation. If a similar can, you know, constraint, you know, would, would give the, the committee a greater sense of comfort relative to the projects, you know, that would be, that would be fine I think you know that fully understandable that you know if you're, if you're thinking about a larger master plan and a commitment to that and using CPA dollars to help, you know, realize that plan and wanting to move in that direction that, that that kind of contingency on a, on an authorization like this would be understandable by us I mean there's, there's no doubt that that we recognize that that reorientation is a, is a, you know, the larger big correct step to take. It's just, you know, we're just up against it relative to our track at the current, at the current moment so that's why we've got this sort of before you at the moment, and in front of you at the moment and I think that the other piece relative to capital planning around, you know, potentially a reorienting field work within that, you know, it's going to be a bigger project and, and so, you know, we'll, we'll have to, you know, think about how best to, to, to try to fund that additional amount if, if you know this could be funded by CPA how do we get from there to, you know, the full project price and, and still not, not break the bank and anybody's regard and, and what's there. I mean I think that's the other question that comes up around doing things on the regional property is, is, you know, are there, are there what does Amherst Bear, particularly it does reside inside the town limits and so it's available for use by Amherst residents much more readily than it is for, you know, other member towns in the region. But nonetheless, you know, there's the students all get access that and utilize it, both in his education classes, other events and then obviously for athletics so you know it's a pretty critical resource for us at schools. But I, but it's certainly just back to the contingency I think that, you know, if, if that reorientation is, is something that's pretty critically important to, to this group as far as thinking about that master planning process and the funding that's been designated so far that contingency is something that's, you know, an understandable constraint that, that this committee might want to place on that. So I'm going to go through your process. Thank you. Thank both of you. I see some hands up. Start with Anna, who will need to leave at seven, by the way. Andrew was first. Sorry. Okay. I'm sure it's going to be all right. I'm the chair. I'm calling on. Thank you. Okay, so my question is, you know, I'm not sure Doug if it's going to be for you or, or Dave or Sarah so I'm going to just throw it out there. We've navigated a lot in the past around budget supply supply. Sorry, I'm like losing my, my voice here, but budget supplanting and how we're not allowed to do that and so my question is, how are we. How is this not a budget supplanting measure. And is what, if we were to say yes we need to reorient it and go in that direction then it even seems more so like it would be budget supplanting because that is a capital plan that has been in the works and so I guess Sarah I want to I think we're, we're still in the clear here where we're not breaking that rule and I also am I'm not, you know, trying to send another $800,000 request for the school budget like that's not that budget is not need $800,000 more is at more dollars asked from it so I'm trying to Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think the short answer is Sonia will waver hands if I'm wrong is that no it's not supplanting. It's only supplanting if you if the schools, the school district school committee whoever has committed to the project, and then comes to us and asks for money to fund what they've already authorized that is supplanting. Right now it's a dream on paper, that's all. So master plan is not we're not saying that that okay. Yeah, thank you for clarifying. Sure. Andy. Thanks, thanks for the presentation Doug. I just want to make sure that I'm following correctly so right now as is the 800,000 year proposing would be to resurface in place. The track. Yeah, that's, that's the way in which I wrote the, the, the proposal to you all, you know, in the fact that, you know, we just didn't know if we can move ahead with the other and so I wanted a reality as it exists and in in the timeframe we were submitting proposals. I understood and then you had said that you'd be willing to have a contingency in that if we said that we would, we would grant those funds, only if it were towards the reorientation just want to make sure I heard you correctly on that too. But yes, I think that's it. I think it's an option that you can explore. I mean, you know, if you don't want to put the contingency, I'm certainly happy with that as well. I mean, I think that, you know, I understand that that, you know, the, the master planning process we get around those fields and include that reorientation and so you feel like that's a necessary constraint I think that that's an understandable one and and so, you know, it may not be one we've been able to meet you know I think that you will know better if we can or can't relative to conversations we have with our, our folks at Western Sam says we get more detail. Yeah, no, I think you summed it up well when you said it's, it's, this will commit to a generation. Right. So, wherever it goes, it's there for the next 25 years. Just real quick, you mentioned that. So right now that the high school cannot host home track meets. That's correct. And then so I'm wondering just where are they, do they have any means through like you master Amherst college to do any type of kind of local or is there essentially every meet is in a way me. My understanding is pretty much every meets away game I don't think that the difficulty is you know when we're in track season social mass and social college, you know, their freedom to allow us to use it and they have their goals and other things and, and other concerns. You know, does that mean we never use facilities at those now absolutely now we do ask those folks and sometimes have the opportunity to go over there but, but largely we can't. You know, and, and there are some that would suggest it's it's really getting to a point where even, you know, regular practices we have to be very careful about your safety issues, you know, injury. Thank you. Tim. Two of my questions were already answered so thank you. I did have a question about the 800 is that, as I understand it, since it's a regional regional school request, do other towns in the region have to approve funds from their CPAC committees. And if so, is the 800 the cost of the project or the 800 you're asking Amherst town to contribute. So, I'm not opposed personally I think I could go to the other towns I don't know whether there's, you know, I will like let me say it this way. When we were looking for design funds a few years ago we went to all four towns. You know the outbreak of the pandemic hit during the, during the process that they were going through I actually wrote a memo to them to say, I fully understand if you want to pause on on making a recommendation relative to our request for design funds. When I put this particular proposal together. I specifically just asked Amherst at the moment. I think that, you know, the number of 800 is one to sort of completely do that resurfacing. And it's a sort of a twofold piece and, and, you know, one is that it's simpler. But it's also because the track, you know, sort of sits within the environs of Amherst proper and, and, you know, it's, it's an available resource to the community, you know, in Amherst, all the time, and it does get utilized regularly because I felt it was a, you know, a, a not unreasonable ask to have Amherst fund the track. If we were to, you know, if, you know, if, for example, you were to find a lower level, you know, and, or would would want me to go and and ask the CPA committees of Archie's brain Pellum I would be happy to go to them and see. You know, I think the design was was, you know, more and less comfortable depending on which town I was in. And, and I think that that would be true of an actual construction piece as well so I think that, you know, it is a bit of a difficult read at this point to know how much they would be willing to commit to something that physically resides outside their town. I think the design they felt like they could support because it augments, you know, sort of the regional school approach to it. The construction is obviously a lot more expensive and, and a little trickier. So I think it's hard to tell but, but, you know, I'm not, I'm not opposed to going out to those committees. And unless they've changed their process, I've got, they didn't really, the other communities deal with their application process kind of in December. So we've got a little, a little time there I think in that regard. I don't anticipate the costs for just replacement to be wildly higher than the number that I requested there and actually I'm hoping it's less and that'll be another thing that you know Western Samson will will hopefully be able to refine for us a little more professionally. I'm sure they'll work with them. And sorry one final question. I'm a little more familiar with collegiate track than high school track, and that is the old days of Amherst College running a meet against Trinity College one on one is was gone years ago, and it's all now regional meets. And they're big events at big venues. And I didn't know what the high school component is do you have like one on one meets and if so how many are there you said they're away, or do you have regional meets where you all go to Worcester say and have 18 track teams all at the same time, and wouldn't they host at the town of Amherst anyway. That's really the genesis of that question. Thank you. I think that, you know, I don't know. To be honest, I don't know for sure if do will meet still occur, you know where it's one one team against another. I think generally, you know, they're, they're probably three or four teams is more typical. It depends on on the facility so you know, if North Hampton can can have a meat. You know, they're, they're likely to invite as many as will fit reasonably well. And obviously if you have a much larger track like a, you know, like a, you know, UMass or, or some facility like that then they might have a big sort of district why kind of meet most of those are more later in the season as they to the to the sort of playoff structure but I think I don't know for sure whether do will meet still exist or if they're usually more than that I think typically more than that. And that's also, you know, another piece to this that is going to be an interesting question as we as we get through it is that the current track design is, is, is not the one that's typically done typically at this point when you design a track. So today we'll have eight lanes, instead of six. We're six lane track, all the way around, including the straight away for sprint so a lot of times I go to, you know, for hosting those larger meats like that they've gone to eight lane straight away, and a little, you know, little different design it's not a lot different than what we have. You know, we'd have to look at our current footprint to see whether or not we could expand, you know, to an eight lane straight away and in the physical location where we are. One other thing across my mind I want to mention one of the difficulties in that location currently is there's no, you know, sort of, you know, ADA access really to that facility. The ways in which people who have mobility issues can get to that are really limited if not completely impossible for some folks. So, whether it's this orientation or a different orientation, that'll be something that will be probably compelled to to address, just so that there's a way for people who have mobility issues to access and observe activities at that at that facility and so that'll be a bonus for us to get that to a condition that's a little more available to more people and that'll be, I think helpful and and a really nice feature of it, but I did want to mention that because I hadn't before. Thank you, Doug, for your discussion on the subject. A couple of comments. And then a question I did. First off, the track really isn't bad shit. It's been a bad shape for a while. I've walked around it. We used to have some soccer games there and a few years ago. And it is a shame that the kids in town aren't able to have some meets on their home turf that's always a significant thing, whether whatever the sport may be. In some cases such as cost country it's a specific advantage, although on track it's the fields are about the same. I did attend a number of the, a few of the sessions that Dave led and I'd like to thank Dave again for initiating the concept of a master plan for the athletic fields, a number of years ago before coven. It was a thorough process I was impressed with the mindset of trying to arrive at a long term solution. And subscribe to that concept. Based on what I heard at those meetings and also currently because I do think it's in the interest of the high school and for the community as a whole, to really know where to plan right measure twice cut once to know where we want to be 15 years from now. And the concerns I have relating to the track is if we, you know, completely resurface it at this point, it's not going to move. And it may impact the capacity whether or not we want to add a turf field. I'm not personally an advocate for that I know people who coached it. I'm a strong believer that the high school needs at one point in time. One field that can be utilized in bad weather and I would assume, and this is an assumption this isn't based on Dave's meetings that it would be surrounded by the track that's usually the way those work so my concerns relate to being ourselves in place and not being able to then achieve what would be the desirable solution down the road. In that context, a question that I have is, is there anything we can do in the near term to make that track usable short of total resurfacing. These few these tracks are very specific in their materials they're really quite nice they're great for runners. And I know that the current one has Parkmark holes throughout. But I've seen in our town roads, how the various DPW and other towns have been able to resurface the holes. Is there anything we could do in the short term to make this track usable. A couple of years with the mindset of then launching to the bigger long term plan. I wish that were so I think we're at a place now. Yes, the tracks can be repaired and there are routine patching that does happen to them. I think at this point we've kind of exhausted that option in other words the ability to continue to patch and have them have those patches and sort of stay in place and hold up for a period of time. So the understanding, you know, is, is that we've kind of exhausted that one pretty much as much as we can in other words. And so the, the any repairing that we do at this point it's, it's really a very short term and very expensive, you know, kind of thing to do for not much gain. You know, we'd love to. We've been patching actually, you know, we're well past the sort of recommended useful life of the track and we've been been doing a number of patching for a number of years. And I think if we really felt we could continue to that would sort of, you know, be here at this point I think we'd be taking a little broader more. You know different approach. The other thing I'll say is that, you know, the people that are involved would love to have it reoriented and because the options available to us are so much better relative to that I just think we're, you know, the, the idea of it, going another year without beginning to get that work done on that track is, it's just when we can't wait for so that's, that's the hard part there and I think that, you know, again, I think, you know, if there's any way possible I think, you know, I'm committed to the, you know, the process of, of finding out that additional information and, and trying to strategize a way to, to get a reorientation project done I really think that's, you know, the right direction in so many ways you know I mean, I sort of sit in this role as a finance person I've set on the finance committee for the town of Amherst, back in the day and, and so I get the smart, the smart money is to reorient it, you know, that's the long term smart solution so you know we're going to look at that really closely and, and, and it are, are, I'm, I'm hopeful that we can find a way to get to that kind of a solution because I think that that's, you know, best in so many ways in so many ways. So we're hopeful that there's, there's, you know, some, you know, as we get a little bit more information we can kind of work in that direction. So I'd love to see that as the solution we try to find and, and, and I think everybody would, I mean, it really do I think that that would be a, you know, the best outcome for us. Any further information on that, Dave, perhaps. I think, I think we need to, Sam, I think, excuse me everybody I think we need to move on to the next to the next presentation, perhaps if there are, I see there's some hands up, we could pass some additional questions on to, to Doug or to Dave, maybe that's the way to deal with it but we've already spent quite a bit of time on this one. I recognize it's important and big questions here. Dave is it critical. I just want to say one thing just the smartest solution is a turf field. That is the best most economical solution long term. So I just wanted to get that out there. I think we're saying once in a generation I think I hear everything Doug saying we all agree we've got to fix the track but if we do this, if we do this today, we're not going to re we're never going to reorient the track in our generation our lifetimes. The other thing is I think, if we need to also look at the money that was also was was allocated for design, because I think that was very specific to the reorientation plan. And I'll see back just a note to Sonya I'm sure she's on top of that, that we need to look at that in the future to really say what did that article say, and I'll stop there. Thanks so much. Okay. Can I interrupt Sarah. Yes, I see that Rupert Roy Clark is in the attendees to see part of the next. If we could add Rupert that'd be great. Okay. So I wanted to know thanks. Sorry remind me of his role. He's the facilities director. So he'll be helpful if there are questions I can't answer on the next topic. Oh, you're going to present. Parker farm also. Okay, right. All right, so I just asked committee members if you have any more questions why don't you just send them to Sonya to collect. Sonya doesn't mind. All right, so thanks Doug, Dave why don't you go on then to the proper farm playgrounds. All right, so I was so thank you for that discussion dialogue and, and hopefully I've, you know, painted the picture of where we're at on that and hopefully we'll be able to move ahead and, and that certainly respect the process and decision Jeff to make. As far as Crocker farm. So there's a playground that sits, what I would say behind the school that's primarily for the younger grades kindergarten and first second grade so there it's a little oriented to younger kids. And it is in significant need of some, some work and refurbishment it's, you know, a lot of equipments in a useful life. And it's also difficult location wise it's, you know, it's the, I don't know how familiar with proper far but it sits. The building itself sits kind of to one side of the property as it begins to go from a lower elevation up to the sort of Shea Street elevation so it's on a fairly. I don't want to say steep but but slope land and and so there is a bit of a flat area in the back. Not a huge area but it but it is, you know, flat enough that they put a playground in that space but but at the same time accessing that is really quite difficult. And this is just the need of, you know, replacing and renovating that that space of, you know, that play space at the school. Another critical piece and this was cited in the in the ADA study that schools had done a couple years ago, you know, physical access to that location is difficult. And the current pathway that takes you there is is not compliant with with the sort of grade and, you know, slope requirements of ADA. As a matter of fact there's, you know, there is a play structure that has a ramp that immediate so as you go up the walk the pathway to the playground it leads on to a ramp into a play structure. And that if you had mobility issues, you, you don't have a hard surface on which to walk and access the play areas and and once you were to get on to the play structure. Through that, you know, by taking the path and going on to that will ramp area. There's a very limited amount of that play structure you can even access if you had any sort of mobility issues so it's really, you know, and a difficult play space for anyone with any mobility issues but certainly it also is just in need of of some, some, some, you know, some new equipment and some redesign and so the thinking behind the ask is, is that we would like to, to renovate that space in a pretty different way. I think there are a number of options we could explore relative to its, its location, not moving it much but moving a little bit, potentially changing landscape a little bit to make the ADA compliance a little bit easier to accomplish. You know, equipment that this is, you know, sort of up to date and, and safe and, and fully, I don't mean to imply that the current club is not safe but it is near it's in, you know, in the life and certainly a lot of repair work is getting done to it to keep it as safe as we can. But, you know, some new equipment would be much more highly utilized by more and more students and, and so, again, I think, you know, besides school kids that are Amherst kids using it every day with schools and session all the other times the year that kids might want to play this is another resource for the community to have a space to be on and play. So I think that that the other thing I would suggest is, you know, Crocker farm I mean I know there's a school building project that's in place right now. But Crocker farm that building in that that area is going to remain a critical component of our elementary schools so that building is not going anywhere and its use is not going anywhere so some investments in some of its facilities is a reasonable sort of thing to continue to do. As we move ahead and so this is an opportunity to do that and appreciate you taking a thought at some time to think about it and, and, and consider it as a project. One last thing I'll say is this. We were, Rupert and myself were talking about this earlier today the size of that play area is roughly, and I do say roughly, but similar size to what just went in at Kendrick Park. And so, you know, if you're kind of doing comparables I looked up the project cost there Kendrick Park and between the, the park grant the PRC grant and money that I believe you guys made available. It's almost, it was $659,000. There's a couple of different things that need to be done it at those two different locations I mean obviously at Kendrick there was some other aesthetics and, you know, picnic tables and walkways and some of that sort of stuff. At this one will be a little more focused on on a on, you know, ADA compliance sort of work and so we'll, you know, we'll orient and choose things based on that. So I did want to, you know, sort of give that to you as a comparable which is why, you know, when we requested the 500,000 that was kind of where that number came from is that it kind of fit in that way. You know, playgrounds have gotten really expensive but they also want more expectations of them than there were a long time ago so hopefully that kind of frames a little bit of it. So I'm happy to answer any questions you guys have relative to that project. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the presentations. Doug, I appreciate this. I just you answered it in terms of how you were sort of aiming your budget that was helpful. I participated in the fundraising for the last for the playground that we're talking about here, which I can't believe it was that long ago. We don't have, you know, we're not going to be able to fund all our projects to the full request level. So I'm just wondering about scalability where other funding might come from if we couldn't fund it completely if if and sort of who's you know, at the last time it was really seemed to be school driven and so I'm just, you know, at particularly at Crocker Farms so I'm just wondering a little bit more about who, who else is involved in the planning of this. I think we're fairly early on in that regard. I do think that, you know, there are opportunities. I mean, certainly, you know, I know that it, you know, at the river and Wildwood both over the years and Crocker Farms done this as well. And there have been, you know, a PGO parent guardian organization fundraising efforts relative to that. And certainly those would be, you know, an avenue we would want to explore and see if the, if the, if the PGO was interested and I think they probably would be of beginning just, you know, sort of help support the project and either augment what we can do, obviously we can spend a lot more than $500,000 in and buy more stuff or or just to reduce the burden on CPA funds for that. And so, and there are some great funds out there and in some other areas. I mean, there are other organizations, I mean some things are small like I looked up today on people has small fee grants, they're like $5,000 well, it's still $5,000 so we can, we can definitely get into and start supporting those I think a lot of those would be kind of cognitive to a primary funding source which, which would be the case with, you know, CPA would serve in that regard. But I think again, you know, as with the previous project I was talking about this one is, is one that, you know, needs some action sooner than later. And we need to make that investment in, in, in that play space for us so you know we'll, we'll definitely want to exploring in all sources that we can to help augment the project, but we want to in advance presume we could raise $200,000 or something like that I wouldn't, I just don't know, I mean maybe we could but I wouldn't want to presume that to begin with. Andy. Thanks, Sarah. Thanks again for this presentation. So just slight variation on Katie's question would be if, if we can't give you enough and you can't find other additional sources do you have the mechanism of phasing this either to cover the ADA first or the replacement equipment. Just wondering. Could you still make something happen with less money. That's a great question. I mean lean on Mr Roy Clark to provide some additional support here I think it would be a little difficult. But, but just given the size and nature of the location. It might be difficult to do it in phases at the same time. I mean I think the, you know, the, another option we would explore, you know, as far as local funding is also, you know, potentially, you know, submitting it as a capital project. You know, through the regular kind of Amherst capital project planning. You know, as as another potential source so you know I think that, you know, it's, you know, that would be the other primary first option that would be available to us but I'll defer to Mr Roy Clark and see if he has any thoughts about whether we could section it into multiple stages or something like that. Hi, can you hear me. Excellent. It worked I unmuted. This is a success. So, one of the interesting problems with this particular site is the slope where it is. If we were able to accomplish a study with a long term goal. It would make it possible, potentially for us to do some of the accessible pathway work ahead of redoing the playground. It's hard to imagine dealing with the playground surface and boundaries without dealing with the, the, the device that are there the slides and the, and all the various things that are there. So that would have to happen at once but if we determined this is going to, it's where it is and it's going to stay there. It's conceivable that we could do some of the access work ahead of time. On the other hand, if we determine it's really going to be the, we would get the best bang for the buck if we slid closer to the the access road on the back. Then that makes the access, you know, access work a little bit more challenging. I'll play that and it's a little bit of the conversation. It does. Thank you, Roy. Tim. Thank you and thank you, Doug and and Roy. I'm a little confused in that I believe when I read the proposal, it was for two playgrounds one, the kindergarten one right behind the school and the other sort of at the end of the parking lot and the reason I asked that is. I visited all the projects were considering and I went to Crocker farm and rather than just snoop around I knocked on the door and, and asked to let them know that I was going to be there and so they wouldn't come out and arrest a 70 year old guy. So, but the principal came out and gave me a tour and the first playground he went to was not the one we're talking about. The one at the end of the parking lot and he told me that was in not very good shape. And we did eventually segue back to the kindergarten pay playground but I didn't get the sense that that was as high a priority as the other one from the principal to school. So, that's where I have some confusion here. Now, now I'm more confused which playground have we been. Have you been describing what he's called unless I'm miss hearing you Doug. I think that. So, the very first question which is relative to the application. At the time of looking at at and filling out the application. You know, what I hope might be possible would be to do the, what's called the kindergarten playground, which sits behind the school so if you're facing the front doors, it's, it's on the opposite side of the building. It's a playground space that's at kind of the end of the parking lot so if you drive into Crocker farm and you park your car and keep going in that same direction, which has a black top surface next to the library, and then drops significantly down to a playing fields area that playground space definitely needs some attention as well. And we've been using some capital funds that we've gotten over the last few years to do small, sort of mitigating repairs to that. So we, you know, sort of I submitted the application and, you know, have learned more about the cost of playgrounds a little more precisely since I, you know, hit the submit button. It's, it's unlikely that we would be able to have that 500,000 would would be such that we'd have very much or if anything left over to do any more work on that other one, I think that that's going to be an entirely separate project so I think that was some wishful thinking on my part in that regard. And I think that, you know, I think the way to think of it for yourselves is that it is really about that, that one that sits behind the building. Kindergarten. Yes. Kindergarten playground. Okay, here on playground, which is which is behind the building and in the closer in proximity to the preschool playground space which is just off their classroom space, which was a project done about five years ago. Hi, Doug. Thank you. That's really helpful. Are those the pictures are the pictures all from the playground that we are talking about pictures in our packet. Yes, seem like they're all from the same ones I just want to thank you. And sorry for speaking out of turn. No, that's fine, that's fine. So, okay, so the one at the end of the parking lot that you're already doing some work on and not expecting to use CPAC money for at least in this application. That's the kind of the upper grade playground or the main playground I just want to be using the proper terms for these. Yes. Yeah, okay, thank you. Anybody else. Oh, Roy. Well, Roy has. Go ahead. And then Tim again. Sorry. Yes, I would like to say we're not insensitive to the issues with the, the upper grade or main playground. Those are also serious issues and old equipment that we really need to resolve. My feeling is rather than spreading ourselves to thin and trying to cover the entire area. I would much prefer to focus on one playground at a time. I think that makes the most sense in terms of how we spend our money. So, I absolutely do believe that we will need to deal with the, the main playgrounds in a much more serious way. I just don't see us doing it all at once. Tim, just a quick question. My recollection also was that the kind of the kindergarten playground that we are now talking about is not used. That was my impression from the principal that they don't use it right now because of some of the issues that we're talking about. Whereas the other playground I did seek some kids around but I'm now I'm a little confused on that so maybe someone could clarify us that would be helpful. Does anybody know. Roy, yes, please. You're muted, you're muted. Actually there today there were kids up there playing. I don't know if that was an unusual event, but yes, it's, it's today was in use. Is it fair I have not said to say I have not yet toward the playgrounds I would assume that the kindergarten playground is smaller than the main playground is that because. Okay, so whenever you get to that that's even the bigger pile of money. Project. If the same if the same degree of work is needed. That's right. Yeah, I think if you want to sort of get a sense of size for this, you know, I think, think, you know, thinking about Henry Park, if you kind of go and look at that space. It's a, it's a pretty similar, you know, sort of size facility for play. It makes more sense to me now because just can. Yeah, I saw another hand up flash up but somebody took it down anymore on this subject. Can we get the zip line put back up. Yeah, given the slope, it'd be great. Yeah, we agree. All right, well then I want to thank you gentlemen for coming this evening. Thank you so much. Thank you for your questions. All right. Thank you. Appreciate it. I think Sonya sends you out of the meeting. Great. Thank you. Sarah, while we're in between, we lost Sam somehow. So I think you still have quorum when I leave but I just wanted to confirm that with five years set. Yes, he mailed me earlier that he's got some new headset and so if he had trouble, he log out and then come in again. I don't know Sonya may have to look for him in the attendees or promoter maybe. He's not there, but I just wanted to confirm there. Okay, I will be leaving abruptly. Right. Thank you. Yeah. I don't see him. All right, so next we have plum brook and I think Alan snow is in the audience. He's in the meeting. Oh, okay, he's coming. It's materializing. Hi. Hi, we hear you. Welcome. I can hear you and see you. Okay, I don't think we don't see you, but that's fine. Okay, so are you presenting more than one project this evening or just the plum brook. Just the plum brook. Okay. All right. Well, take it away. Tell us about this terrible shape this field is. So as the application states that current irrigation system at plum brook recreation areas is not functioning at all. The well, which provides water to the irrigation system essentially has silted up and is no longer able to supply enough water to run the system. It's approximately 50 feet deep. And it's, I miss quoted the diameter of the pipe there. I think it's two and a half inch, not three inch. Well, but so we can't get enough water. The irrigation system was really designed. It wasn't really designed for commercial serious commercial use. It seems to be it's just even when we have enough water going into the irrigation system. It just struggles to put enough water down quick enough so that you can water the roots on soil profile deep enough. As a result, the roots of the grass tend to stay very shallow, and it makes the grass dependent on frequent irrigation. So our proposal is to one way or the other we need to drill in your well. We'd like to move to current position of the well, so that it's adjacent to the parking lot at plum brook. It's about a 200 foot move essentially from where it is right now just down the street. And then, Julie much deeper well that will be able to draw water in the confined aquifer, which will hopefully provide enough flow to run a water cannon, which will allow us to put a lot of water on very quickly. On the athletic fields there so we currently use water cannons to water the turf that community field and sometimes we move around to the athletic fields. That's high school as well where we don't have irrigation. It's a very, very simple process. It's a very easy unit to maintain. It comes in and gets winterized it's input storage. It's, it's in a system we're very familiar with it. You say something about the what needs. I mean, besides its inability to water the field I gather the, the subsurface sprinkler system is creating problems also for for play and for maintenance. Correct. So the, the actual physical irrigation system that is installed in the ground 135 irrigation heads. You know, irrigation systems require like that and require significant amount of maintenance. It's, it's a tough environment for anything to be there's electrical components there are valves, wear and tear, people running on them, driving on them. They need constant maintenance and currently the system has been rather has run rather well. As far as not getting significant maintenance, but it has reached a point some. I think it's 18 years. It's time for it to have a major overhaul and install new, new valves and update technology of the irrigation system. We again thought it's a perfect time to change the system to something that is easier to maintain. And it will actually make maintenance of the field itself, much easier for us. Currently, every spring, or summer where we want to aerate the field or if you want to roll the field. We have to turn on each zone, wait for the sprinkler head to pop up market with a big white circle and do that 135 times. It really takes a day for three people to do that. So, and then we have to as we're rolling or aerating we have to make sure we don't run over those white circles so it's, it has created a lot of maintenance time for maintenance for us. If we could abandon that system, remove the heads removes the handles that are in the ground, reduce the trip hazards. It will make means for us much. Thank you. So questions now, Andy. And Sonya are you keeping excuse me keeping an eye out for Sam if he's stuck in some other room. Okay, thank you. Sorry, Andy, go ahead. Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Thanks for the presentation out. A couple quick questions would be one sort of the standard when we asked like if you had to sort of phases. Could we take the, the pump that's currently used to irrigate the other fields and move it here. That's a great question. I do not believe so but know that for a fact that the new well will and water cannon will require a stronger pump than what we have there right now, which is size for to feed the system in the ground at a slower rate that we would need to run a water cannon. Right, I guess so I'm just looking at the budget though so the. So installing the new well, the new pump. Having the new pump would drive any water cannon. Is that correct or am I not correct. Yeah, so the new that the new. So we have two pumps, we have a pump that pumps water out of the ground. And then we have a pump that pumps the water out of the cistern into the irrigation system or into the water can. So are you talking about the well pump and that I think well so I guess as I'm looking more closely at the budget I see there's the pump, and then there's the cannon with the booster pump. Yeah, and so I guess, does the, does every cannon have a booster pump, in which case again could we just, if needed, you know, move that that existing cannon that we have across town. You know, if, if we didn't have enough funding to cover this full ask. Correct. That's a great question and we could we could definitely move the water cannon. That's a great question and we could definitely move the water cannon from QE field to punk rock. Okay. And then, and apologies if I just misheard you on this but in terms of the existing irrigation you said you'd like to just pull up those heads. That's not part of this proposal though, correct. Right that would be in house. Okay, we would do that. We would backfill everything and see it over anything that was left dirt spot. Perfect. Thank you. Katie, I thought I saw him. Did you know. No, I think that last part maybe Alan you answered. Thank you for the proposal and presentation I, I just, it sounded when I thought of removing that whole irrigation system seemed like it would be not only would add some cost to it but also the, the re doing of the fields would add cost but that isn't part of this request. That's what it would look like. Correct. You know, we, we would essentially be going out into the field fields and unscrewing the heads over there and backfilling. You know, like a spray can size hole. You'd leave all the water lines in place. All the water lines would stay in place. I see. And, but you can still do it the aerating over there deep enough that that's not a problem for rolling and aerating. And there, there will just be a band in there in place. Never be used again. I wondered about the, the, the existing well that is failing. You said it is. Well, first of all, it's too narrow, I guess. The flow rates too small, but you said it's so it's tilted up is that an inevitable it just that just happened in wells and there's there a way to ring them out and you know, is that a maintenance issue or something other than that? That's a great, great question. It's, it does happen. It happens to all wells. We have tried to frack that well. We didn't get a slight increase in flow, but it's just too far gone to try to get any more water. Anybody else? Any other questions? I will just ask if you if you know Alan, I mean, I'm from the rec commission, maybe I should know, but that's a very heavily used field. Am I right? That gets a lot of play by different groups. Correct. It gets a lot of a lot of a lot of our youth use that field. There's some unofficial use by some out of town leagues that use that occasionally, but it does get used heavily when it's playable. And it could be used even more. But the conditions improved. Gather that in the springtime know it can be wet and that's that's not something that the new irrigation system can fix. That's just mother nature and being in a swamp basically. Yeah, I think it's part design. It's removing abandoning the existing irrigation system actually would allow us to install some silk sort of getting the name of the, it's like a filter sock. Like a burn, but a burn around them. Nice it into the soil. So there'd be a little bit of soil disturbance, but we could actually slice into the soil using a machine kind of sows it into the ground. And we would be able to draw water away from the field into the surrounding into the surrounding area Jason skills that kind of engineer as a as a plan has been working on planning for that. And by being the irrigation system, we could really improve the field. Strange. Okay, that'd be great. All right, well I last call for questions. All right, I think we're set then thank you Alan. All right, thank you for your time. Okay, good night. So I think they was back to tell us about a degree or answer. That is right. I am back but I would appreciate it if Sonya could bring Ben Breger. One of our planners into the into the call. What we are going to do if it's okay with you Sarah. So Ben and I put together five or six slides for each of the proposals so we'll I know you're short on time so we will be as efficient as possible and and then open it up for questions so real quickly I think we'll start with Hickory Ridge because that's what the agenda said was next. There's been I introduce him. He's from the planning department and has been working closely with me and our team on Hickory Ridge. I just wanted to bring to this seat backs attention that about a month ago or so we held a series three information sessions down at Hickory Ridge on a Thursday, Friday and Saturday and over 225 people attended. It was an excellent couple of days. We learned a lot. We are beginning the planning process for Hickory. We hope to close on the property before the end of the year. We want this to be as inclusive a process as possible. That's why we're taking our time. We think this will be about a probably an eight to 12 month master planning process for the site. We're looking at dozens of ideas that have come from the community from nature trails, pollinator habitat, zip lines, dog parks, affordable housing, community gardens, connecting trails to the village center. All of these wonderful ideas and we're beginning to process them on the town websites. We have a part of that website called Engage Amherst and we've had over 100 comments on Engage Amherst. So with that, we will talk about our proposal for trail funding and I'll turn it over to Ben and he can run through five or six quick slides. Thank you. Okay, thanks so much, Dave. And hello everyone. Thanks for having me. I'm just going to share my screen quickly and run through these slides quickly. So we're talking about the Hickory Ridge Recreation Facilities, our request for $150,000 for trail and recreation facilities at Hickory Ridge. So here's just a brief overview of kind of showing Hickory Ridge in context. It's in, you know, three quarters of the way down in South Amherst, kind of on West Pomeroy Lane. Here's the old golf club and the schematic for the course here. It's no longer going to be used for golf. We know that for certain. Golf is not viable there given the flooding that occurs with the Fort River. Here's just a little bit more zoomed in. It shows this 150 acre parcel kind of in context of the neighborhood. You have Orchard Valley to the south here. Sorry, it's a bit cut off. The Pomeroy Village Center with Mission Cantina, the Amherst Office Park, El Comalito in this area, Crocker Farm to the east over here. And then upon on East Hadley Road, the Mill Valley Estates, the Boulders, the Brook South Point, this dense apartment complexes here to the north. So Hickory Ridge has a lot to offer both for recreation, but also connectivity for the neighborhood in this area to really take what was a private golf club. You know, private property exclusive expensive and make it a public asset that really brings people together, stitches the neighborhoods together and is an incredible recreation asset for the town with over a mile of the Fort River running through the area. So I think Dave alluded to this a bit but some of the goals that the town had in purchasing the property from the beginning were certainly the protection of vital natural resources. Much of Hickory Ridge is priority habitat estimated by the state because of wood turtles and freshwater mussels. So there's some important habitat that's protected through the purchase of this property. Certainly passive recreation and walking trails that you know that was already something that was happening at Hickory Ridge, especially in the winter it's been used for cross country skiing even while it was a golf course and certainly that's an important need that people want to continue. I alluded to this earlier to neighborhood connectivity, bringing bringing the community together with this shared asset and then potential development along the road frontage. And like Dave said we're in the middle of this master planning process to really drill down some of the activities and land uses, but I think we can say with with certainty that they're walking trails will be a part of this project that you know, this is kind of a map that shows the solar array which is going to be installed in the coming, you know, two to one to three years I imagine one to two years, and that's been already permitted. And this shows the existing trails I can zoom in a little bit the existing trail network is in gray here. These are the cart paths that have been, you know, it's kind of a mix of actual pavement and crushed stone, and then in certain areas it's just been out. And then this is just a schematic kind of a concept plan of how we could begin to stitch those existing cart paths together to form a true net trail system a trail network if you will. And that kind of can provide, you know, looping opportunities for very long hikes but then also shorter walking opportunities, and to really begin bringing community members, you know, access to the village center, you know, potentially getting in with the garris trail at some point that would involve a bridge so probably a separate project but you can begin to kind of see how these cart paths form the fabric that we can use to bring in a whole trail system together. And then just some images these are the existing trail conditions, you know, mix of again crushed stone actual pavement, and then you can see nature is starting to take the course at, take its course at Hickory Ridge with you know, you know you can see the fairways as well starting to rewild if you will vegetation starting to come up. And so I think with the recreation facilities and trails at Hickory Ridge what we're really trying to do is make an inaccessible trail system as much as possible. All four seasons to activate them, especially with you know cross country skiing and snowshoeing already so popular here. And then again kind of a spectrum of materials from crushed stone to fully paved to actually just mowing out pathways where the grading is appropriate. Such as this. And then finally, you know this is going to be an important recreation asset with where people, a lot of people come and visit so just having some simple amenities like benches sitting areas, picnic tables kiosks with information is an important kind of way to invite people in and give them a place to relax and settle settle down so those are kind of briefly kind of like the overarching you know design ideas we have. And the rough like kind of trail system that we're imagining here. And with that, leave it open for questions and thank you for your time. And then I asked your, your proposal. Asks for funding that would go to him, I think it was a mile or a mile and a half of trails and also to kiosks and benches and stuff. So if you could go back to that. I know it's not set in stone trail map, like how much of that system there is a mile and a half or mile as the case may I forget what you did maybe. About one mile your proposal says it's CPAC funds CPA funds could fund one mile. Correct. Yeah, I mean that how much of what I'm looking at would be a mile. I mean, I was to that that's an average of, you know, varying different trail conditions because part of it might be, you know crushed stone other parts of it might just be mowed out of the fairway. So obviously a crushed stone path is going to be more expensive on a linear distance. It's not going but I think our goal is to complete like a loop trail or just a major connector trail and not just kind of leave, you know, leave it ending in the middle of the fairway so I think we were imagining like the like having trails, kind of the core of the of the land would be our priority. And then maybe leave some of these leaping trails that are a bit out further out from the property and harder to maintain, kind of in a more, you know, rugged state if you will maybe just mowed out once, once or twice a year, but putting our the most investment kind of in the center core of the property where the most people are going to visit. If I could add. Yeah, I think Ben is is kind of spot on the there's so many opportunities out here as as those of you who maybe have been to the course. No, some of the some of the cart paths are paved up and maybe you could point out the the one going to the west. So, although we can't nail all of these answers down right now. And we're also looking at ADA options that trail going to the west is partially paved right now it would need some patching and or improvement, but to actually do like, say a half mile loop trail there are half mile kind of cul-de-sac trail there that is fully ADA would be simply spectacular. I can't say how many times in my social circles I hear people saying how wonderful the Conti refuge trails are over in Hadley. And I probably said to this group before sometimes I get a little defensive when people say that. But here's an opportunity here that we can do something pretty special on this side of the the town line. And and we think it's it's really the potential for as Ben said, some paved trails, some crushed stone trails, and then some trails that'll just be a little more natural like a like a farm road. So, I also wanted to go ahead. It was but can maybe focus my question a little bit I just don't have a sense of the scale, like, how many miles of trail are we looking at. So, like, if we find a trail, is that like half of what you want or a third of what you would hope to do or if all again some of these are in a condition where we don't have to do much improvement. But others we may want to make fully ADA or do crushed stone. Then what you're showing there as a hypothetical is is a couple of miles of trail easily. I wouldn't be surprised if that's that might be four or five miles of trails, if you really look at it. I'm sorry. I also note that I want to give credit to my mom who doesn't know she had that slide. And there she is. That trail is on conservation land at Applewood and you can really note that that is ADA accessible it's crushed down. That's what we want to offer to some of the server offer at some of our conservation areas to make them more accessible for many more people. Thanks. Okay, Tim, go ahead. No, I was just going to. I am a golfer and I have golf that site. I'm sorry, more than once. My recollection is an 18 hole round of golf you walk about four miles, roughly. So if you figure 18 holes in there gives you some sense. So I think the whole system appears to be like four ish miles or so. I don't read the proposal talking about one mile but I think that's an interesting observation but that would be one comment I make. Thank you. Heady. I was wondering if there was a way to think strategically about the trails. In terms of other objectives of in terms of this site. I was able to come to one of the sessions Dave and was really helpful to be there to walk around and talk to some of you is. So here's my dream, you know, is it possible right now to work on a trail that would link some of these communities that is mentioned in the proposal, like it's hardly road, you know, through to West Pomeroy. That would be amazing. If there was some, you know, it's the usual, you know, what's the biggest bang for your buck, you know, at this point that we could that would really demonstrate the impact of our funding and, you know, the difference that it makes right away. The short answer, heady is absolutely that's one of the number one goals of this project and one of the reasons that we stepped in to try to buy the property is to connect the neighborhoods to the north, south and east. There really isn't much to the West because the Hadley line is over there and and and wetlands, but absolutely that is one of our goals. And in fact, Ben and I have some meetings set up with some of the apartment complex managers and owners in the in the coming weeks. It's going to take a lot of negotiation and a lot of discussion with them. But yeah, absolutely, we would love it. Our dream would be that people from Orchard Valley can walk all the way north, get on old, get on East Hadley Road and walk over or bike over to golf park to use the spray park. And likewise, we would love it if people from the north neighborhoods could get over to Mission Cantina or El Comalito or to visit a friend at some of the apartments over in the Village Center or pick up a gallon of milk at the at the convenience store. So that's absolutely. Thank you. Sam. Can you hear me. Yes. It's connected for a while there to switch venues. Thank you for talking about this. This is certainly an exciting property for Amherst to be making plans for. It's really quite something. At one of the prior meetings, Dave, I don't know if it was last meeting or another one you had referenced that we not get ahead of ourselves and I thought you were referring to Hickory Ridge. Are there contingencies related to ownership or what the town can do related to the property. I may have been speaking in the context of housing and a different property and I might have misheard you but I thought you indicated that it's in status where we were not yet free to go forward. Am I incorrect. I'm not sure I fully understand that but we hope to close. I'm pretty confident we'll close before the end of the calendar year 21. So once we close then we can really begin the planning process. It can speed up. We've already begun but it can speed up. Again, we want to take our time. We want to do this right. But as Ben said, trail connectivity, neighborhood connectivity is a central theme. I don't think we're going to waver from that but whether we weather and how much affordable housing or whether we do a BMX bike trail or whether we do somebody said, oh, we need another dog park there. Whether all of those kinds of things happen, I think we need to take our time be deliberate and that may take more than 2022 to come up with those plans. But trail connectivity and connecting neighborhoods I think as I mentioned in my previous response are central to the project. So I think those can get going. I did want to mention to that we've put in a proposal to the CDBG for CDBG funds because we think the trails are going to, you know, it is not easy to make some of these trails accessible to all. So and we also have some bridge work out there to do so we've put in one of the questions you always ask is have you asked for funding from other sources the answer is yes, and we'll also try for state and private funding. Thank you Dave. Eddie you have another question or is your hand still up. Okay, there goes the hand. Sorry, sorry. No problem learning. All right, it's all right you might have another question. So, am I right in thinking there's a faint purple line across from Crocker farm, and that's an existing trail. Right over there. You say you said the name of a trail so is there I see a dashed line from Hickory Ridge crossing the river. Is there a bridge there now. There is not a bridge there now. That's a that's a vision we have is to try to connect the Harold Garris trail is that right Ben is that Howard Howard. So the kids could walk to school would be super kids could walk to school or classrooms could leave Crocker farm and go over bridge and be on this property. Okay. Anything else. I think not. Okay, thanks. Are you all I assume you're going to present the yeah we can leave and then you can invite us back in. Are you all are you staying for the trail improvements. I am yes. Okay, all right, then why don't you just, unless I missed a hand seeing a hand up. Okay. Dave you want do you want to give any intro. I think Ben's going to jump right into it I'm sensitive to the time of the committee. All right, so thank you so I think zooming out from Hickory Ridge for a second on the town. Maintains an incredible amount of trail mileage, acres of conservation areas, and kind of just different amounts of open space that we are all have also submitted a request to help with ongoing trail construction and facilities for the town. So, here's just an overview of the Amherst trail system with the corresponding map. 80 miles of foot trails, you know, nearly 2000 acres of conservation land, 100 or so bridges, thousands of feet of bog bridging. It's important to note that, you know, Amherst, the amount of open space and conservation land and trails and Amherst is a is a major draw to, you know, bring people here. It adds a lot to the quality of life, just to just to be able to access nature so easily and get out into into the woods or into these meadows that are maintained so we, you know, I think in town hall we pride ourselves in the in the trail system and conservation areas we we have here. And so, you know, I think the bridges are, you know, probably one of the biggest, you know, cost, caught most costly items that are contribute to the trail network and they're really important as making, you know, trails accessible to everyone. They come in a variety of forms their wooden steel bridges historic old bridges, fog bridges that you see on the top here. And, you know, that's an important work that you know the town staff and the conservation department take on themselves often. And if you look at the natural elements that's probably the number one things that's causing havoc on the track on the trail system whether it's a river flooding and overtopping a bridge or a tree falling on a shed at puffers pond as you see here, or just, you know, rain rain and different amounts of erosion and stuff like that so that's kind of what we're up against. And here's just quickly I'm going to run through these kinds to give you a snippet a snapshot of what what's been done in the past year or so for our trail system and recreation facilities. Here's the parking kind of before and after at Stanley street with a new kiosk here. This is a some trail work at the sweet Alice conservation area to kind of manage this grade and do some wetland restoration work. Parking also at sweet Alice a new parking facility and the trail that leads from the parking area to the trail system. This is off of Bay Road in South Amherst. There's an incredible amount of bog bridging and foot bridges on the Robert Frost trail, which is I think is still an ongoing project to complete. Also some ongoing, and then this is a kind of like proposed work so this is like some of the work that would be covered under the CPA request that is kind of in the backlog of new construction that that is needed to be done in the next few years or so the more work at the sweet Alice conservation area to replace culverts and to propose and to install boardwalk and footbridge over the plum brook. At the plum springs conservation area I was told there's damage from beavers that needs to be right repaired from the trail on the trails themselves. As you can see here and I apologize some of the pictures turned out kind of fuzzy. Also at the product conservation area. More work on culverts and replacing a vehicle crossing or replacing it with a vehicle crossing or a footbridge. Likewise on the KC trail the 10 cuddle back trail that runs through a great length of Amherst dealing fixed fixing or replacing this vehicle crossing bridge or finding an alternative alternative access point. And then on the Dickinson trail on your graph park kind of trying to figure out how to navigate this area that's been flooded repeatedly. I think that is it and here's a picture of amethyst brook. So I think that's just kind of a snapshot of some of the projects that would be taken on with the CPA grant that we have to work on now. Thank you. Let's see I see Sam has a hand up. Thank you for the presentation Ben. I read the proposal I had a question what kind of equipment is rented in association with the trail work I saw that in the proposal reference would pay for materials and equipment rental for significant improvements I'm curious what type of equipment might be rented and separately. Is it correct that this would be these funds would not be used for the Hickory Ridge as well it would be entirely distinct. So yeah, thank you Sam. The answer to your question is second question is, yeah, these are totally distinct requests and this funding would not be used at Hickory. In terms of equipment when possible we try to seek assistance from DPW I must say that with equipment rental and they have been helpful to us in the past. I can think of a project in in Orchard Valley where we had a dam that needed repair and they helped us with crews and equipment. But oftentimes when we need to do work which is during the short summer here in New England. We are busy doing work as well. So what we've we've done in the past is rent equipment like, for instance, mini excavators are key. You know, they're functional they're small they get down trails they can get by wetlands. So getting mini excavators with various attachments on them for, for instance, leveling out an accessible trail or removing a tree that is too big for for a trail crew to move or for working on bridges and excuse me moving material. Right at this moment Ben mentioned that we are doing extensive trail work along the Robert Frost Trail. We got a $30,000 grant from the state to do that. It's due by 1231 we've got to have all the work done so it is we are going gangbusters out there. And we were lucky enough to borrow a gator from the Department of Conservation and Recreation to move materials. Because you can imagine moving all that pressure treated lumber out into the woods could be a mile out into the woods on the Robert Frost Trail to do that by hand is a whole lot of work and not very efficient. So we have tractors we have two small tractors. We have strong people we have seasonal help when we can afford it. And that's how we get it done. The helicopter. This question occurs to me, maybe it's not directly applicable to the proposal maybe that is there. If one is limited. If one can only use accessible trails for whatever reason is does the town have a map is there something that indicates what trails or what portions of trails are accessible. We should do a better job at that Sarah it's it's kind of an inner list. We have five parts of trails or full trails that are accessible but we don't do a great job at promoting them. We have one at Puffer spawn we want have one at large Hill, and there's a couple of others but yeah we need to do a better job at promoting those trails. Absolutely. So, promoting would be great but let's say if I went to the town's website, would I could I find that information somewhere or is it not even really fine. It's a little buried our website needs updating where there's too much verbiage of, you know, they were written we have extensive pages on our conservation website but really, as we all know nobody wants to read that much information anymore so we really need to do those pages it's there but it's it's buried it needs to be. We need to do some cleaning out and extensive editing. I'm Ben if it would be helpful if you could go back to the bridge, the bridge image I just wanted to share with folks. This is the bridge with the abutment that is falling in the pop brook that one. So that looks very small and looks rather simple. So this is off the. I believe it's the KC trail off of southeast street heads due east toward the Narwatic rail trail. This is an old farm bridge, which is designed was designed back in the day to carry farm equipment. Well, we have an obligation to maintain that because farmers have an easement over it. That is the current condition of it. We are not allowing any farm equipment to go over it it's covered with plywood it's fine for walking over as you know as a hiker. But the abutments are falling in so between permitting and an actual fix of this project of this fix of the abutments. We're probably looking that's probably a $35,000 fix right there to replace that bridge. So we don't have a lot of those, but we have, you know, a couple dozen easily bridges of relatively the same size that we maintain and we piece together, you know, private funding. The Kestrel Trust has been very supportive. They just they just awarded us $15,000 to replace some bridges in the Lawrence swamp. So they're very generous and very helpful. But some of these bridges are big ticket items they're not easy fixes. So thanks. Any other questions from the committee. I don't see any so I think we can wrap it up then. Thank you both again for your time tonight. Thank you for having us. So now we turn to the North Amherst Community Farm. And I see Bruce cold and welcome Bruce. Thank you Sarah can you hear me clearly. Yes. Good. My name is Bruce cold and I'm the president of the North Amherst Community Farm and the applicant here. I don't see the, I guess I can now because I've been elevated, but I would say that Barbara party and other board member is present. And, and possibly Dave Tepper and or John Gerber who were both compromised on the time they may or may not be able to attend, but both of those are interested Dave being the farmer for simple gifts out lessy farmer. Barbara party is in the. She may or may not wish to be elevated. She'll ask a question. She'll indicate when she's ready to ask. But our proposal is to essentially to create a pavilion on the highly desirable part of the farm, where we have our festivals. And various other things. The festival school pool. 1500 people or more. And then we have other activities that are less spectacular but the site is spectacular. And what's happened recently, I mean recently meeting in the 50 10 15 years that the, the farm has existed. The neighboring properties, our co-housing community, the parcel that's been bought by Laura Sayer and Michael Evans and cooperation with owners further afield. And, and there's a quite extensive trail system that's grown up and and will continue to grow. People from rolling Ridge now can find their way all across that area and into the mill river recreation area. So this pavilion will serve both the, the, the trail system as a as a rest stop or picnic area place as well as essentially a stage a focus for for the farm communities events up on that hill. And if you've been there. The view is not quite as spectacular as the view that's behind David right now, but, but, but glimpses of it over his right shoulder is, is, is what we see you for the Berkshire so beautiful beautiful side. So the, the request essentially is to secure the framing lumber to construct this pavilion. We have an old barn, the barn is, is being a bane of our existence for the whole of the time it's, we've done a lot of restoration and so forth of other bonds and particularly the farmhouse with this because this committee has been very helpful on three or four previous occasions. But the barn cannot be done in the same way so what we've decided to do is to source use it as a source for materials for this other project that we have long aspired to create. It's basically in the lease with simple gifts so it's something that we've been thinking of for 10 years or more. And we can secure this framing timber from the barn if we can deconstruct it carefully rather than push it over with a bulldozer. And the funds are to take this barn down in a way that we can salvage the lumber the number the, the, the framing materials, and then build an equivalent timber person frame timber building smaller on the site where we really need the building. Not where it is now the building we have is old decrepit and we can't find a use for it. The use now is to use the materials to build the building we really want where we want it. If you will support this request of us of ours, we will be able to have the specialist labor to take it down we have a lot of volunteer labors which we can then sort and do all of the rest of the work. We will secure that labor just as we've done with the farmhouse we, we've got 3000 hours of volunteer labor semi skilled volunteer labor over a year for that project, I expect we can do the same. We will raise money through our farm community, as we have done previously to secure the additional materials, notably the roofing material and the flooring material because this will be an open sided pavilion no electricity no mechanicals no installation no windows no doors roof and the floor is what we need, and we will successfully as we have in the past raise money to do that. So this will be a two to one match more or less if we value labor the way I've suggested the, the, this is an important request because it starts the process. If we can secure this timber, this lumber, we can build the building. If we secure it, then we can gradually use that to excite the community to galvanize the commitments of volunteer labor and then, as we build and have an old fashioned barn raising with God knows how many people and so forth. I think it will lead to a surge of excitement of God we did it, because the frame, we will then own we can build it. The, the thing will be a practical reality. And we will use that to the excitement of that to raise the money we need to put the roof in the floor on so I think it's, we will be successful as we have in the past in garnering those matching commitments. I think it'll be a fabulous amenity. And I don't think I need to say more at this point. Thank you. Questions from the committee. I thought I saw. Sam, yes. Thank you, Bruce for the presentation and I commend you for your organizing and efforts, very impressive from my perspective, looking at two questions for you. How many approximate members are there of the farm community simple gifts and North Amherst community farm. And once the pavilions built you referenced that it's accessible for those walking. Do you envision it being for lack of a better term rented or made available to non farm members as well or would this just be more for trail walking farm events etc. First question. Remind me again Sam sorry. How many members. Well, we have about 700 people who have made contributions to the fundraising that we have done so far many of them have made multiple kinds of contributions so that's, that's one number 700. I was building the farm, the volunteers we had 52 or something like that 52 people who volunteered some of them volunteered to 100 hours and some of them volunteered for half a day. But those were 52 people that showed up and 52 doesn't sound much but in fact it's huge. So 52 people to come, particularly when the tally is 3000 so that's another. I don't know what the share. People with the community supported agriculture shares but those when I last checked were in the 500 plus or minus vicinity so that's another metric so 700 people have written checks multiple 500 of purchase shares. And 50 have actually showed up and, and build, and there are many more who've come on other events earlier in the past so this. There's hundreds probably who've come and actually participated in work days but remember the farm, the construction of the farmhouse was talking 50 essentially skilled or semi skilled people. So, that's those are the first, those are the metrics that stick with me. Then, as far as the, the use of the access the occasionally simple gifts who the less ease have rented the festival hill to. They did last year for example there was a bike, a bunch of cyclists who were on a tour and they wanted to have an event and have their lunch or something. Tents for them and, and they came and use the farm. And then of course because we did it for that other people joined in a turned out not just to be an event for dedicated for cyclists it turned out to be event for everybody. So, in theory, yes, it could be a place that was. It wouldn't be just a pavilion it would be the site and simple gifts would manage that, but essentially, it's, it's, it's a building that is freely available to all because the terms of the lease state that this is a public. These are public trails that go through this, this farm. So, generally, I think the answer would be, it's free to folks who come and, and occasionally, and it may be the venue may be rented out for some purpose or other. Thank you, you must be quite a construction manager to manage 52 volunteers. We had, you know, nonetheless, nonetheless. I get things done Sam. I can see. So I have a question. Because frankly I have, I have, I have some concerns that we're not we're not going to work out in this meeting about eligibility. But I know, or at least in your proposal you said, you know, you want $25,000 to dismantle and salvage timbers from the, from the barn, and then it would cost another 30,000, I think, actual purchases of materials to then construct or finish the pavilion. Well, that's after we frame up yes. Okay, so the frame is that right. So I'm wondering if, if it is, if it works better for CPA could, could we fund the fit the roof and the floor as opposed to the dismantling of the bar. Absolutely no. And the reason for the unequivocal answer to that is that we don't start until we can secure the barn materials to build the frame. So we have to fund a process that takes that bond down in a way that yields building materials rather than demolition materials. Right, but you're saying you can't raise funds to hire the master carpenter or whatever to take it down. I've done. I didn't know much about fundraising six or eight years ago and I've learned a lot. It has to do with the story. And it has to do with building momentum. It's very difficult to raise funds to start something by public subscription, so to speak, what draws people in is when things start happening when excitement builds. So this is what I guess you would call in development practice early money. The early money is not something that is easy or it's, it's difficult. It's extremely difficult and I wouldn't know quite how to start securing funds to on the on the arm waving that I would need to do to describe the pavilion. I'd much rather be raising money when we've just succeed successfully had a barn raising I imagine the level of excitement that would attend to that would be extraordinary. And so that's why I think we can get 30,000 at the end, whereas it would be quite difficult to do it at the beginning. Well what, what if you could say to people we've got $25,000 from CPA to finish a pavilion, if we can raise the frame. Is that enough of a story. It would help. But it's, it's, there's no momentum there. I've got to, I've got to start that momentum and showing that we, I can get people to come the first task will be to get people to come to clean the building out. It's full of junk, we've got to get rid of that junk. Then I need to secure a small group of people that can take the siding boards off so we can salvage those then things were taking the siding boards off and there's a clean open space inside will be the first big kind of reveal. Then I think, if we can take the building down, then people begin to think yes, we've got something happening here, we can join in. So, I, I, I, I can only say that the way in which the CPA committee can be an order of magnitude more valuable would be to put the first $25,000 in, not the last $25,000. Thank you. Um, it's a very minor point, Bruce, but just hearing you describe that timeline and the sort of thinking that goes into each step is really helpful. And, you know, having helped along some of this from the position I have on the historical commission I just think the more transparent that you can be about the story. The better, you know, as a simple gifts member myself, you know, I think I think it's just just hearing about it when you go there, you know, I park by that barn. I mean, having been to the having been to one of the full festivals in the on the hilltop there, you know, I think it's such an adorable site and and once one's encounter with Amherst and with what's going on in that part of town is just so incredibly charming and captivating that that knowing that timeline and sharing that with the community not just with the membership or the farm itself but with the town, I think would would would help a little bit perhaps and kind of figuring out you know which bit of, you know, what's the phasing here as we keep, we keep, we keep asking that question but so more information please, which is always good. Hopefully Scott Merzbach is watching this these events both before the historical commission and here I always regard this type of event as a, as a, as a, as a publish public engagement opportunity. The next thing that happens is I, we put together a news bullet and we have a regular mail chip. There's about 1200 people on that list that's a novelist, I guess, Sam. Sorry, yes, you've moved around on the screen. So, we will put that newsletter out saying what we're doing and I was waiting until we had finished our hearing with the, basically with the start commission. And so that'll come shortly and we'll be building but thank you. Yes, we'll be as I'll talk to anybody about this. I'm working, building some stuff out there on the farm and people walking by and every time they do we have a, you know, a 10 minute conversation. I heard that Jim Lake from Rolling Ridge said that the trail that was linked the farm to the Rolling Ridge said was he said that he said that it improved the standard of his living, measurably. He's delighted to be able to, you know, get out of Rolling Ridge and walk. So it's just people like that I'm running into all the time and I, I talk talk talk. Yeah, thanks, Sarah. I know you said there obviously these are the first of these presentations and there'll be more discussion later. I know we've worked, the town has worked creatively with Bruce and NACF in the past. I just want to put it, I'm having my, from having done this for many years and seen many proposals, I'm having a little trouble getting my head around a couple of things. What category is this being proposed under? And I think we need to do a little more research to see, is it an eligible use of CPA funds? I, again, I read your proposal, Bruce, I don't know, it's under recreation, but I've never seen a proposal like this under recreation. So I think we have to look kind of statewide to see, have there been other similar proposals, maybe you are that have been funded by other communities. And maybe you've already done that. So, because I'm kind of thinking, if this is fundable under CPAC, I wonder if, you know, again, not to throw, throw this in there, but I wonder if the performance shell on the town common wouldn't be CPA funded fundable. If one is, I would think the other is too, I don't know, maybe, maybe communities have funded larger performance, but it strikes me that this is kind of the same thing in a much smaller scale. But anyway, I don't know, Bruce, have you done any research statewide to see if other communities have funded things like this? Well, I think the CPA funded the playground structure. And Kendrick Place, didn't they? Sorry, Kendrick Park. So I thought because I just, I didn't even think I needed to, I thought it was clear. But how this is not like a playground. So, didn't we fund the pavilion for a graph part? A graph part. Yeah. I mean, I suppose if you, I mean, I would have thought that a play structure or a structure, I mean, this is a play structure for adults. I mean, it really is no difference in my view. I can't see, so it didn't occur to me, David, that this was just for something I needed to do. Would it be for performances or was it really gatherings? I mean, it's really to give life to that site that we have on the hill. You know, every time we do something up there, we've got to put up a tent. And tents are difficult, particularly at this time, or because not because you're getting them up, okay. Getting them down is the problem because you have to take them down dry and fold them up. And that is really difficult. Having a pavilion up there that we don't have to take down or put up and take down. I mean, that's, that's, that's the, that's the, that was the beginning of this. That's what said, that's why we said 10 years ago, we need to have something up there so that we can do the kind of farm education. We can support the kind of recreational activities that people are dying about there. We just need, we need a structure. And whether it's a play structure for a park or a pavilion for a trail, I didn't see. I'm not questioning the need for it. I'm just, it's a, it's a creative, it's a creative way to look at it. It's, it's a pavilion on private property. So that's, that's the difference between a pavilion at Groth Park is clearly open to the public anytime. Is this going to be open to the public anytime? I don't know. I just think we need to look at it. You know, we'll do some research with you. It's certainly open to the public anytime. It's, it's not, I mean, it's not public. That's true. It's a trust owned piece of land, but it's, it's Is the structure going to be on the APR or is it off the APR? It'll be on the, well, it'll be on the APR. That's, that's one more thing I have to deal with, which is negotiating that particular thing. I think the sense that that one we have thought about, and the sense is that we can successfully, that that can be successfully admitted by the, by the state. Okay, great. Well, thanks. I see Sonya has her hand up. I have a couple of the same concerns that David have. One is that it is on private property. And the other part is, this is to deconstruct a building, not construct a pavilion. So I know that's the ultimate goal at the end of this, but this money would be to take down the barn. Well, the money I would prefer you think of it is this is the money that we purchased the structural material for the provision. And then, to the extent that we, we cut, we solve the problem that we just discussed, if it's not eligible, then, but if it is, then I would ask that you think of this as a way of securing the frame materials for the building and doing so very cheaply. It's the most cost effective way of getting the material that we need. It happens to solve another problem as well, but it's essentially securing the, the frame material. How is it cost effective. I'm ignorant about building, I mean, rather than just ordering lumber and it's, it's, if we're going to build something up there, and it's going to be left to survive, it's not going, it has to be something that can endure with almost no maintenance. Using the kind of materials that are in that bomb those chestnut beams, some of which we've got really the stuff that hasn't already broken. We've got some really durable material there that we can use and if we put a good roof on it with wide overhangs. That can be a building that will require almost no maintenance. And because we know there'll be no place where the water will collect. It's open and so forth. But that material that we have down there is, is the best material to use to build this thing. So we're securing that material with this application. Okay, chime in here. Yeah. So one of the other concerns that I have is it's private, it's private property. So would we need, and I'm not sure I'm going to do some research on this whether we would need to have a restriction placed, since it's not a public property to have this on. What sort of restrictions on you? What do you mean? Well, kind of like we have restrictions on, or, I don't know, help me out, Jay. What are the agreements that we have with historic property type of thing? And again, Bruce, we're just, we're kind of free thinking here a little bit based on the uniqueness of this proposal. But normally when private entities are granted CPA funds, what comes with that is a permanent restriction of some sort. The land that you're proposing this on already has an APR on it. So that may be a way, not around that, but that may be a solution to that. But for instance, when we grant money to a private entity and down to restore a church or a stained glass window, the public through the CPA legislation, it requires the town or city to get a restriction on that property. And that restriction can discuss and require the public being able to use the thing, whatever you've restored or see it or something like that. So we can, Sonya's just bringing up a good point and putting that in the hopper here and we can do some research on that too. And I think that if there, something that, if the word restriction means access, I mean, securing access easements or something like that, that would seem to be the kind of concession or whatever word you might want to use that that a private body like us could give. And I think we, I can't speak for the board, but I would expect that we would be quite persuadable to create the kind of access that would give the town the security that this was private in name only, and that access was not only guaranteed by the terms of the lease, but because we can change the lease. But if you wanted, if we could create some way in which the town would be satisfied that this public access that we're saying this building is to provide. And if it was secured by more than just the terms of our lease, I think that we should be prepared to entertain that kind of proposition. And we may want to jog our memories on on on what we did with the farmhouse as well. So are there any, so these are technical things we'll have to wrestle with another time but are there more questions specifically about this ability. And am I right in thinking that you don't know how big it will be because you don't know what can be salvaged, or do you have a kind of a whole or expectation of what I think it would be about 1000 square feet. Yeah, I think that would be the scale that we would anything bigger than that would would start to be a tail wagging a dog up there. Right. Okay, well I see no more hands so thank you. Thank you Bruce for thank you all. Thank you all for spending so much time on this question. Thank you Bruce. So lastly, I think we have the pickleball players. I was on mute hi everyone. So, like Joyce is getting on to. Okay, and which Barbara are well you're not Barbara bills I know that are you Barbara Brown, Barbara Brown okay three. Okay. I'm not sure Joyce is materializing. You're muted. We're sorry to make you wait. If you've been waiting a long time we're a little behind actually not as far behind as we could have been so I'll say that in our defense. But thank you for coming tonight. Why don't you tell us about your proposal for football course. Okay. I'm Joyce hatch and Barbara Brown and I have joined forces here to try to move in the direction of pickleball courts in in the town of Amherst. I have a question first I'm just curious if any of you have ever played pickleball. No. Okay, there's no court. Well, Barbara and I brought some show and tell just thinking that that might be the case. And I just wanted to point out mostly because it doesn't take a lot of gear to play pickleball. The racket's about this size, and the ball, the pickleball is that size. And it's like a wiffle ball. And you might have a hat or advisor and really good sneakers. And outside of that, you just need a court, or three. I think I one thing I wanted to point out with all the gear is that it's really a minimal investment for folks compared to golf or biking or even tennis. You have to rent court time usually if you're indoor but right brackets are, you can get a good racket under $100 wiffle balls, not expensive at all. So, I thought I'd just tell you my experience because I think it's gotten the pickle the game of pickleball has gotten the. I always thought it's for people who go to Florida in the winter, you know, and that's how I first discovered it and I don't go but a friend of mine, who was a college roommate. She and her husband visited us about five years ago, and had come back from Florida and she brought this net and some chalk, and she said we're going to your, your town tennis court and I'm going to show you this game. It was great we got a couple other people together. I still thought it's for people who go to Florida, even though, five years ago, their town in North Hampton, New Hampshire had pickleball courts because they would play in the summer when they came back. Anyway, I think it's really gotten some momentum in the area because of Bay Road and indoor pickleball, and they've taken the tennis. And put lines on some of the tennis courts you can fit two pickleball courts on one tennis court one on either side, and then have additional nets that are a little bit smaller. And they, they do clinics starting a couple years ago they started some clinics and that's how I actually got involved locally and I think a lot of people did because of that ability to play indoors. One of the things that I really think is important. I don't know if Barb, if it's been striking to you, but I noticed it's such a co-ed sport. In so many other sports, people can play co-ed tennis, but often it's women play with women for a lot of reasons men are so much stronger. And some for some reason and pickleball people just like to play co-ed, although sometimes they're guys that are some really serious guys play with each other, but some really serious competitive women also play with, with at that level with them co-ed. And it just strikes me how, how interesting that is and not that many sports are like that. So, you know what else to tell you except there's beside exercise and people can play for many years I know someone who's very competitive and she's 80. In place with men. There's just this social aspect to it. And it's hard to describe if you haven't been in a place where people play in a group, and it's not that serious most of the time there's a lot of chatter, because four people are playing on a relatively small space. And frankly, tennis players don't like to be in the vicinity of pickleball players, because it's a little chatty and a little fun going on and noisy so it's distracting. And I think that's the case up at Bay Road in the winter to so the tennis players like to get down the other end. So, why, why pickleball courts in Amherst? Well, we don't have any for one. People, people go to other towns who by the way are using CPAC money for pickleball courts Belcher town for one. The other towns are if they haven't already done it. They're using that money they're looking at additional courts or in the process I know North Hamptons in the process of looking at building courts with CPAC money. People play it look park, you pay to park and you pay to play. So that's not a public but a lot of people from Amherst do go there. They're not real pickleball courts their line tennis courts, but that's another place East Hampton has their own, a real pickleball court Westfield. There's a long list. But what got me thinking about Amherst was I spoke to a pickleball friend that I hadn't seen for over a year, and I saw her this spring, and she said well I've been playing all winter. Really? I, you know, no one's been able to play at Bay Road. And she said, well, she and a couple of other people just she lives in North Amherst. So she's an Amherst resident. She said, well we just show up, bring our snow shovels and a broom and, you know, if it's not too deep we shovel it off and if there's a nice sunny day we play. So it's just that there's an enthusiasm that people have. Once you get hooked, it just just keeps going. So, with that in mind, I, I contacted bar bills when she was still in the director, and she suggested I go to a rec commission meeting. And I was interested in maybe having lines on the tennis courts at Mill River, thinking, you know, small, a start. And in some, some discussion that came out some members, I think rightly, so said that the tennis courts, there are only two, and they're busy and I would add to the competition for tennis. Maybe we should think about pickleball courts. And here we are. So, Barb, I was talking to Barb and she is an avid player and wanted to help out what she has. So that's where we are. Then we talked about a site. And the rec commission suggested three possible sites. I thought that there wouldn't be more, but maybe an elementary school, maybe War Memorial Park, there's an old basketball court there, and Mill River. So Barb and I had our tape measures and we went to, we didn't go to the school, I sort of ruled the school out because there could be conflict. Kids, people play in the spring and the fall and students are there, parking's already taken up. So it didn't seem, and in the summer, there wouldn't be any restroom facilities. So it just seemed like a recreation area would be the best fit. And War Memorial, the basketball court was just too small. It probably fit one court, pickleball court, and then, even then, parking was an issue. It just, it didn't have any ambiance there to speak of. And frankly, if we're going to go through the effort and expense of building pickleball courts, it makes sense to do more than one, because they're used in a way that more than one court is used at a time. And gather as a group and mix them around with different courts, not just one court. So when we looked at the War Memorial, the Mill River site, it just seemed, it just resonated. And the parking lot I'm told, if you know if you saw, it's probably hard to see. But when you come in from 63, and the entry, and the entry road into Mill River, there's a parking lot on the left, sort of out of the way. And it just so happens to be the right size. And it's lined up north and south so that three courts could fit side by side lined up north and south, and that's how courts are supposed to be cited. And it's just, you know, it couldn't be any better. And in fact, Barbara and I were there and with tape measures, and I had my compass and my cell phone, and it was exactly north and south, it was just too good to be true. The other thing we did was have a contractor who's like an excavator who did a lot of the did the excavation work for the Belcher Town courts. And he came just to look at the site, trying to get see if he could give us some kind of a rough estimate of what it would take to clear the asphalt and put cement down, which is what he did as part of his piece of the Belcher Town courts. And his, his assessment was, it happened to be raining, we're there, you know, rain coat on, we're meeting him. He looked at it and he could tell that there wasn't puddling, it was appropriate runoff and just flat. So with and packed down has been a parking lot so it's rather packed. It just seemed from a player point of view seemed perfect. The other thing we did with putting together the proposal was there to two pieces to building a pickleball court we've learned. And one is the excavation and putting cement down. And then the other is the surfacing and the kind of companies that do that are tennis court companies. And then the one in the mountain, the Berkshires but the one Vermont tennis, I contacted they're the ones who also did Belcher Town courts so that made sense just to contact them so it was a rough very these are very rough estimates but since the tennis company does pickleball courts I think they know what they're talking about. I don't know if there are any questions all I can say is for people, people over 55. And if you don't play tennis anymore like me although Barb still plays tennis. It's just a natural fit and many people play who played racket ball or ping pong. Seriously one of the really good player. It was a ping pong player, but it doesn't matter if people haven't even played a racket sport it's just. It's something that once you do it and you have a little fun you just, you know, it's easy to keep doing it. I mean, I think it's, if you haven't gotten to read our letters of support I hope you will because I think you can pretty quickly get the flavor of what we're saying about people just get excited and people are playing with their grandkids and I mean it's up and up through seniors different completely different physical abilities. People can still enjoy being out there and and you know we had 20 residents right now willing to say how excited they are about the project. They're either already playing or want to play and I think it shows how quickly this really could grow and the facility would be used a lot. Thank you. Can you hear me now. Thanks. Yes, let's see if committee members have questions and Andy. Thanks for the presentation. Mine's a really sort of simple one, which is, it seems like a lot of things are working out for this in terms of the excitement of the sport, and that it seems like it would fit. I don't want to try to say this, but just because it can fit is the town supportive of taking this parking spaces and turning them over to pickleball courts. If you're asking us I mean I'll just say that again it was the rec commission that requested that Joyce considered that one of the spots. You've talked a lot. I mean again you saw in letters but Ray harp and bar bills, you know as rec department people who are very familiar with that rec area are very supportive of this but I can just tell you what other people have said to us. Yeah, and I read that I read that in your proposal to you. It's maybe a question Dave I see you have your hand up. Maybe you could help answer but that was the only question that I had. And thank you for the proposal. Okay, Ray Ray is that he's the new director, Ray harp is the director of Amherst rec now and he's in the audience, I believe, so if the committee would like to ask him that. Yeah, I'd love to get an answer. Okay, maybe Sonia can bring Ray and Tim. Yeah, this is sort of a, this is sort of a related question and that is, again, new being new to the committee. If the town wanted or someone wanted to put a tennis court somewhere I guess I guess don't understand why private citizens or town citizens are requesting this as opposed to the town recreation department. As a, that's, I guess my question. I, it came to me before Ray was a high rank was on board and I would say we, it never occurred to us. And we were very enthusiastic. Okay back in the spring when barb was still the director, I believe. Yeah, yeah, I mean it will not, it will be a town if it happens it will be a town asset the town will own it the town will manage it. It will manage the construction. It's just the idea, the idea is coming from. Alright, so it's not a group of private citizens and requesting for private. It's a town. It just happened the idea germinated through town citizens. Yes, they are doing the legwork to propose amenity for amenity for the town. And, and I think that's a good question Tim. Um, I think the, the answer is that the rec commission that that time. The sentiment was that if there was a lot of support from residents that it may have more support from CPAC, as opposed to just a department, a town department. Well, we're happy to have, have the town rec department be very, you know, involved and I think this is the end of. Well, I wouldn't say the end but this is what our, our role is is just to say there are a lot of people in town, there's a lot of enthusiasm. And we would love to see the town do this and what run and scheduled by the rec department. This is what we were looking for and be great. Ray, do you want to speak to your muted. I guess I can just make it real quick and say that we are brainstorming ways to program with the court, like it would give us an opportunity to use for camps clinics or stuff it's down there in a spot that we know we have some engagement with community. The schools teach pickleball as part of their, their physical curriculum, and it is a pretty popular part of that curriculum at times and I did see it as an opportunity to reach into the schools and sort of engage the students there also. There are a lot of reasons why I was intrigued by it when it first came to my attention on day one or day two of my, my time in the office over there. I wouldn't want to steal the, the, the light there, I think they've, they've got a pretty nice open run setup over there but we as the rec department could use that we definitely could commit ourselves to using that and scheduling it and and programming it using it for for services. Yes, George. The one, the one thing that Barbara and I have talked about that would be nice is, should this be funded and move along. And the D, I'm assuming the DPW would do the work and get the contracts and contractors, but we would volunteer and I think it would be a good idea just to have a group that checks in and advises about pickleball courts. And I say this because we've played on some in the one in particular was the town court and everyone says gee there wasn't enough room when people are going back to play and to swing and it's just little things that if there anyone who was heading that project just wanted an advice or a small group of volunteers just to check in and say what do you think about this. Not to add any money to things but just you know just to say this works this doesn't work. I think we'd be happy to do that but that that's the extent of our responsibility. This isn't our project. We just see it as something for the town. That would be terrific. Thank you. Dave. Sure I'll be very quick so you know this is a very exciting project. I have to say I have a close friend of the family lives in eastern mass every time I see her. She's just talking pickleball. Yeah there's like pickleball fever out there. Just to clarify I think something Andrew asked about earlier and I think Sarah you just clarified it moments ago which you know this is not unlike some other projects we've seen promoted through Amherst baseball improvements to baseball fields etc. This would be this would have to be a town project on town land as as a previous speaker said it would be coordinated through DPW and working with with Ray and in in the recreation department. I guess my one piece of advice because I'm always about options is if the committee decided to fund this. I would not make your funding contingent upon the courts being at Mill River. Just in case I'm all about options. So you know if you fund if you choose to fund this just you know that's the preferred site but just I'm always about what if what if what if drainage is not right there. We just improve the basketball courts may you know so we'd want to pull in the town engineer from DPW and maybe a planner to work with Ray and and this wonderful volunteer group that is coming together around this proposal. So you know I grew up five minutes from that park. I'm one of the biggest Mill River supporters ever. So I think this would be an intriguing proposal. So those are my my comments and I kind of look forward to working with Ray and and Barbara and Joyce and others who are who are supportive of this and let's let's let's see if the CPAC finds it as compelling as some of you do. So thanks. Thank you, Joyce and Barbara for the presentation. And congratulations Ray on your relatively recent appointment. I'm glad to see someone in the town addressing those needs and glad to see you here. If I heard correctly from your response to Andy's question. My surmise is that you think that a pickleball court is a better use of the space than what would currently be there at Mill River, which is I believe parking that's what I'm hearing. And when I heard you describing the location Joyce, I heard you say that you came in off 63 and took a left. Now, I know there's a parking but I my understanding is in the back right is that correct. It's, go ahead, Sarah I see you. You go down, you go around you go around the circle and you go over to right below the road right below six right by the basketball. Well, it's, you're going to basically do a U turn. It's that it a parking lot that nobody parks in. Park there. Basketball courts. Basketball courses. Thank you. Okay. That's fine. I don't know if you can see this, but. Yeah, I know where that is. Yeah, there's a there's still parking in between the basketball court and where I understand. And I that clarifies what might have been a misunderstanding for me and Ray thank you for confirming that you think it's a good use of the space and you are the director of wreck and I assume that the wreck has also at least had some favorable comments on this based on Sarah's indication so thank you all. I see no other hand so last call for questions. I see none so. I was only going to make a comment that every time I go to Mill River there's a group of like five guys sitting. They're like essentially tailgating in that spot so hopefully there's somewhere else where they can go. Well, I need some public outreach, you know, just maybe they're waiting for pickleball court. I don't know. All right, well thank you Joyce and Barbara for coming tonight and waiting. Thank you. Okay, thank you. I know it's been a long night for you. Okay, good night. Good night. It's Sarah depart. We lost Sarah. Well, Sam, we can wait a minute to see if she's back but my understanding was I was disconnected. I was disconnected for about 15 to 20 minutes. And I believe I missed the Plumbrook presentation. Am I correct that I missed it. If that's the case, if that's the case, I believe we've finished all six of the presentations. Sarah is back here if she wishes to engage. She may not be. Sorry. Back over to you. I told you I'm learning. That's right. I've had enough on you. So that I know I could do that. That's great. You're talking too much array. So now we're at the time for public comment. Is there anyone else here. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I guess. And Trent who I believe is from the reminder newspaper. So probably just listening. Can they raise hands if they want to speak? Is there a way for them to do that? So this is your chance. If you want to say something. Seeing no hands. I. Figure we have no public comment. So. So we're done. I will just remind you that we meet. Oh, Sam. It's, it's not an item. It's a request of Sonia before we depart since the. Request was made by you that we get the minutes done. In advance of next week's meeting. I'm going to need to depend upon. So I'm just going to give you a couple of minutes. And then I'm going to start recording. Of this session to come up with the. Previated minutes. Cause I missed a stretch. So I'm. Raising my hand to ask Sonia if you're able to. Get that to us in a. Reasonable time of fashion. It would be helpful. Thank you. Or Sam, if that's not possible, just indicate where you were absent and we'll fill. We'll fill it. I didn't take any notes. I just listened. To the recording. I'm like, it's better than any notes I'm taking. And I can, I can read them. Okay. Kind of high risk approach. But it's fine. It's fine. And if minutes, if any minutes cannot be ready for next week, that's we'll just deal with them the next time. Okay. So I'll see everybody. I hope next Thursday at six o'clock. Right. Can I ask a technical question? Are we supposed to vote to adjourn? I've been told you never had me to vote to adjourn and you don't need to be adjourned. You just. Okay. Good. Okay. So, but we're, we're leaving at eight 39. Okay. Thank you. Bye everybody. Good night. Good night.