 Hello and welcome back to NewsClick Studio in the latest episode of Let's Talk, where we are yet again going to talk about the COVID-19 situation in India. Now India is the country with the fifth highest number of cases. Many countries across the world have been reopening after they have been able to flatten the curve. In India, however, we have been forced to begin to reopen even as the curve has not flattened. And so we are stuck between a deteriorating economic situation on the one hand and a rising number of cases on the other. Meanwhile, reports continue to emerge from Maharashtra, Delhi and other parts of the country about inadequate medical facilities. We will talk a bit more about these issues, but here are some details. As of today morning, India reported a total of 2,76,583 cases of which 1,33,632 are active. The death toll is 7,745. In the 24 hours before 8 a.m. today, 9,985 cases were reported as were 279 deaths. Over 1.45 lakh tests were conducted during this period. In other major developments, Jay Anbargan, a senior DMK leader from Tamil Nadu who was also an MLA, died from COVID-19 related complications on Wednesday morning. He reportedly contracted the disease while engaged in relief work. Meanwhile, the Delhi government has decided to not oppose the left-hand governor's instruction that hospitals in the state be open for all. The government had earlier controversially decided that 10,000 beds in state government hospitals should be reserved for treating COVID-19 patients from Delhi or Delhi residents. This decision had caused an uproar with many observers pointing out that it was violated with the right to health. Subsequently, the left-hand governor, Anil Bajal, overruled that decision. We talked to News Clicks Prabir Purkhaistha on some of these issues. Thank you, Prabir, for joining us. So we have seen a number of developments over the past few days. The government has virtually admitted that it has really failed to tackle the epidemic. On the side, as far as the cases are concerned, we've seen the numbers steadily increasing. And now at a global level, India is in the top five in terms of overall cases, but also in terms of new cases, turning out to the numbers are quite high. So do we see the situation continuing over the next few days or are we anywhere even close to possibly reaching the curve being flattened? Well, let's be very honest. We are nowhere near flattening of the curve. In fact, we are steadily going up, which means that we will peak at some future date on the other, but the peak is not in the near future. So one thing is what 70 days of lockdown has achieved, that it has not achieved in flattening the curve or crushing the epidemic, which is what China did. As you know, in this time frame, we are able to literally contain the epidemic to very small profits and stamp it out. So that is not what has happened here. Very clearly, we're still on an upward trajectory. That can be seen. And I think the fact that when Amit Shah, our hope minister, comes out and says, what about the opposition? Already the government admits that it has failed and it is now putting the ball on the opposition, the government, the state governments, and say, hey, we couldn't do it, but what about you? And I think that's a big admission of failure. And I think that's something that we need to register. That this, what about you, register the fact that you believe that they have failed and that you perceive that they have failed. Now, forgetting about what the governments have or have not, what now needs to be, what is the scenario now and what needs to be done. Clearly, the figures, as you said, India is now rising in terms of the total numbers. We are, I think, in the sixth in the world at the moment. But in terms of reinfections and indeed deaths, we are the third highest in the world as of now. And behind the United States, which of course, under Trump, completely dropped the ball, shall we say. The CDC failing to even provide proper tests for even one month after they started seeing outbreaks in the United States. And two months after the genomic sequences, deciphered and put on the public database. So that's one. And the other country, which is ahead of us, that's rather shameful, is Bolsonaro's Brazil. So if you take these two countries out, as you know, Brazil is now trying to hide the figures, taking the data off the database, and then forced to put it back by the Supreme Court. Brazil is a particularly bad example of how to find the COVID-19 epidemic. And so is Trump's United States. And we are now the third highest. After the lockdown, which is considered quite severe, is also a sign of the failure that we are seeing. So what is it that needs to be done now? Clearly, the numbers are only rising. You see, new infections, the figures are going up. In absolute terms, the numbers are rising. Now the talk of percentages doesn't make any sense because what you're seeing is the hospital capacity as opposed to the number of new patients that is coming up. And particularly, those who will fall seriously ill, who will need hospitalization. And that's roughly about probably 5% to 6% of the total number of patients wouldn't normally turn serious, particularly if they're above 60%. So if you look at the hospital capacity, the ICU capacity, and the ventilator capacity, all of this at the moment are seeing signs of crisis in the two major cities that we are seeing down break, which is of course Delhi, the other is Mumbai. In Delhi, it's happening in front of a newspaper offices. So we are seeing it around us that the people are dying in front of the hospitals without the real admission. So what it shows is that we are rapidly running out of hospital facilities, which is the other reason for a long down. You want to prolong the curve, not only dip, but prolong the curve so that you can meet with the kind of demand that's going to be put on your health system. And obviously that at the moment, if you are saying the peak is further away, that means the situation for the hospital is only going to get worse. And you are therefore likely to see a higher death rate. And that's again, what we are finding now that the death rate in India is going up more steeply than the number of infections warrant. And that's because you have the hospital systems and no longer able to sustain the battle against COVID-19. And there is a, I will not say it collapsed, but there is a slow or overwhelming of the hospital system that we're seeing now. And this mind of the two of the centers which are best equipped to handle the hospital crisis, which is Delhi and Mumbai, which has good infrastructure in terms of also ICU. So that's when it is happening. So I think that's a very worrying sign because when it gets into the smaller towns, which already it has started, then you will see a much bigger crisis emerge because the number of ventilators, number of ICU's and such events are much, much smaller in spaces. And particularly in the, what is called the Boko St. Towns, or the smaller towns, rural areas will get about, there is a density. And if you want to reach the nearest town, even then you will find that the hospitals are occupied or the hospitals have no capacity to handle serious patients. I think you are likely to see a much bigger crisis in the hands of the health system now. Now the numbers are reaching the figures which could cause overwhelming of the health system in the urban centers soon. And then it might spread out to other areas. And as we know, the figures are very, very poor in those areas in terms of ICU and hospital medicine. So I think we are at it at the moment. Right. And as far as Delhi and Mumbai specifically are concerned. So if we use some of the other models that is successfully in other parts of the world that has successfully combated the COVID-19, the spread of COVID-19, what exactly would be needed right now? Would another mini lockdown work? Or is it even practical? Or do we need more targeted measures? I think we have to now agree that a further lockdown would be the continuation of a failover. The lockdown needed to be accompanied by certain things. That did not happen. Now, if we don't do those things, just a lockdown is not going to help. So first is, can we strengthen those things? Which is contact tracing, isolating the people, not treating it as a police law and order issue, but treating it as a health issue. Providing volunteers on the ground who are willing to be mobilized. Providing the health staff to be supported in different ways. Now, that is gearing up the entire government administration primarily at the moment or fighting a public health disaster, which is adopt. Now, Kerala has shown that, of course, they had the earlier experience of the Vipa virus and they also had the floods, which mobilized a huge number of volunteers across the state. So they had that capacity to mobilize the volunteers. And of course, the left government, which is a very close links to the people and the mass organizations. But it's a mystery why the art, which claimed that it had a strong volunteer base. We don't see that mobilized at all. In fact, we see no semblance of mobilizing the people on this count. The art is reliant exactly as the Modigapu did on the administrative machinery alone, talking about apps which we know in the epidemics doesn't really help. This is really something which is wishful thinking by the art government. And then, of course, you have this strange spectacle of trying to hide numbers by denying the public labs, private labs to test. Did I give in Bangaram Hospital? It's a very charitable hospital, a very well-known one, a very good one, from also doing tests. And to cap it all, both ICMR and Delhi government in this case have said that you cannot get a COVID test done if you want admission to hospital unless you're symptomatic. Now that is terrible from the health point of view because that means no person who needs either a chemotherapy, cancer treatment, anything which needs what is going to be a journey or something which could be even a crisis like appendicitis and so on, they cannot get admission to hospital because they cannot get the test done unless you are suspected to be COVID-19 you cannot get the test done. And if you are not a COVID-19 suspect, but you have other problems, then the hospital will not let you in without a COVID-19 test. So this is becoming a catch-to-little situation. So I think it shows the mindlessness in the bureaucracy that they operate quote-unquote on the rulebook and not by what the health system really requires. So I think that's the unfortunate part of it, that Delhi government has shown that it's incapacity to mobilize people and not to look at it as an administrative problem but to look at it as a public health problem. And I think that's the problem that's to be found fundamentally overcome. If you mobilize the people, then you can contain what is called the mitigation measures then you can take much more, much more effectively. People will know that identifying themselves as somebody who might have COVID-19 will not stigmatize them, not let them to a kind of prison-like conditions and the very poor quarantine facilities, all of that. And they will also get basic support from themselves and their families. So unless you give that confidence to the people that this kind of antagonistic relationship with the people and COVID-infected is only going to worsen the situation and that's what we seem to be doing. Now we get this huge cornering of areas, talks about isolating and increasingly this cluster is so large that effectively containing it means also infecting a new set of people over there. So I personally feel that unless there is a change of tack where epidemiologists are involved, public health groups are involved and of course the people are involved, we are not going to see the controlling of this epidemic take place and then we are back to what is the herd immunity thesis which might take if you don't have a vaccine a couple of years. So I think we are in for hard times unless the central government and the state governments now decide to follow what is being loosely called the Kenner model but what is the public health model which almost is existing. We need to go back to that and strengthen the public health system applying at the stage because that's what the hospital system, public health system is what can really save you from deaths not just infections. Most people will get infected, we get okay but if you want to prevent the real problem which is people dying or getting damaged by the COVID-19 you need the second line of defense which is our health system. Absolutely. Thank you so much for being with us. In our next segment we bring you a conversation between writer Vijay Prasad and musician Roger Waters of Pink Floyd where they talk about COVID-19, capitalism and the building of a better world. You were very struck when you heard the news of the death of Ramona Medina in Villa 31 in Buenos Aires died of the coronavirus. You made a video about that Roger. The question of running water was central in this the question of poverty was central. What moved you to make that short statement about the death of Ramona Medina in Buenos Aires, Argentina? First of all, I was told in the same communication from Garganta Podorosa which is a working class newspaper that I believe it may even be based in Villa 31 it's certainly based in Buenos Aires and they said to me, this woman is complaining because she's been told to wash her hands so that she won't catch coronavirus. Many times a day, wash your hands many times a day. They said to her, and she said, I can't, we have no water. You've cut the water off, there isn't any water here to wash your hands. And then of course, she got the borrasson died so it's a tragic, tragic story and her message which was basically that water is a basic human right that no authority, whether it's a municipal urban authority or a government should have the power to deny to the citizens of any country anywhere. So I made a little statement in support of them because they asked me to and also because I know Villa 31 because many years ago when I was on the road there another organization in South America called ALAS asked if I would help to publicize their work in education for young children all over Latin America, which I did and I adapted a song that I'd already written and I made it and then I put it half in Spanish and half in English and you've seen it Yeah, why don't you, I mean the song is extraordinary and we're going to run at least some of it in this video. The song is called The Child Will Fly. I find it a very affecting song. Could you talk a little bit Roger about making that song and also the video which you shot in Villa 31? Yeah, as I say, the child poverty action, charity was called ALAS, which is wings in Spanish. And so los niños volarán means the children will fly. It's just that the child will fly. So that's what the song became called but basically it's a call to allow our children whatever their beginnings and their roots and wherever they live, if they live in Villa 31 or any of the favelas all over Brazil or any poor district anywhere, that they have the opportunity to be allowed to fly because one of them might be Galel, the great tango maestro or one of them might be Marqués and suddenly write Time in the Love of Coral or they might just be people who deserve to live a decent life with running water. So in fact, the message when I made the ALAS song is exactly the same message that Ramona Medina was trying to get through the thick skulls of the bureaucrats in Buenos Aires when she died. And the message remains the same. We have an absolute responsibility to our children to change our systems, to offload neoliberal economics in order that our children and everybody's children should have at least the possibility to learn to fly. Most of them, not most of them, yeah, a huge proportion of them now die when they're little kids because they got nothing to eat. So that would be the first step on the way to it. And that old bloke who to my eternal shame, I can never remember his name, who makes musical instruments, he's real, he really goes around the rubbish dumps and he makes those musical instruments out of rubbish that he finds on dumps and things. And some of them even work a bit, you can twang them and they make a noise. So I don't know what else to say about it I became very involved in it and I got old friends to help me. Eric Clapton played a guitar solo and Steve Gad played drums and I've got a wonderful, brilliant Brazilian percussion player and a young tenor from, he was at Juilliard at the time, he was a student called Alec Schrader, sings this, turns some of it into a beautiful operatic area. So I don't know what else to say and I also managed to meet people from the Abreu movement in Venezuela. So I had some Venezuelan kids come up who I was hoping one was a cellist, good player and a beautiful, beautiful young woman and a boy who played the trumpet. Unfortunately, they'd been given parts which they'd learned in the wrong key and we didn't have time, and we didn't have time and we weren't quite musically in sync enough to get them to, so we weren't able to use what they played but to even walk alongside Abreu's great experiment, one of the great, great things about Venezuela was this idea of teaching working class kids to play instruments, just as a matter of course. You know, there is light at the end, there are many tunnels and there is light at the end of a lot of them. It's just a question of clearing the people who run everything and steal everything out of the way so that we can first of all get into the tunnel and then see the light at the end and then crawl our way towards it and then burst out into the new tomorrow that we and our children deserve. That's all we have in this episode. Let's talk, we'll be back tomorrow with major news developments from the country. Until then, keep watching NewsClick.