 Hello, everyone. Welcome. My name is Abby Fry. I'm the communications manager at Moodle and today I'm really pleased to be having a conversation with Mike Bennett and Seb Francis, who are the co-founders and directors of Titus Learning. Hi, Seb. Hi, Mike. How are you? Good thanks. Great to have you here. So, Seb and Mike represent and the directors of one of our certified service providers, in fact, a premium certified service providers. And that's really important to Moodle. It's a very important part of the global Moodle community because they work with education institutions or organisations to ensure the success of their Moodle online learning project or platform. So, a really, really important part of the Moodle offer. You know, they offer many, many different types of services, but if we had to summarise it, you could say that they provide expertise in customisations, installations, support, training, any number of things and hosting, of course. So, it's wonderful to have them here. And as I was preparing the interview today, I realised that you guys have been operating in the e-learning space before you became a Moodle partner, for instance. And so, I was kind of really curious, how did you come together? What brought you together to form Titus? I think I'll take this one, but we might both have different answers, depends on how we're feeling. But Mike and I used to work with one another, a previous LMS provider. And Mike was my manager at the time, which I'll slip in there because he likes to mention often. But we worked together, worked really well together. And at the time, we were looking more so at the international school space. So, this is going right back to the beginning. Obviously, much more corporate focus, membership focus, public private sector now. But worked well together, felt that we could give something better, do something better, particularly around customer service, customisation, some of the bits that you've just mentioned. And I suppose we put our money where our mouth was, so to speak, and then set out to build Titus. So, we did that for a good three to four years, as you said, without that Moodle partnership, which has got its challenges. But I think now that we've gone through that process, and we are one of the premium Moodle partners, we kind of understand that from our side. There needs to be that time period where you prove yourselves in terms of what you can do with Moodle and the customers that you can acquire and look after and retain. See about three to four years into the journey, went through that process of getting our Moodle partnership. And I think it was the beginning of last year, sorry, we've got the premium Moodle partnership status. And really that Moodle partnership was a bit of a change for us where we moved very much more to offering corporate platforms for staff development and membership bodies and external training as well. So, a good learning curve prior to becoming a Moodle partner and printing plenty of good learnings thereafter as well. Yeah, that's an incredible journey. I mean, certified premium partner, as you say, you won the Moodle Appreciation Partner of the Year in 2019, and then the 2020 Moodle Partner of the Year. You've expanded into the UAE and multiple other countries. So it's really impressive growth in a few short years. Why do you think that you've been able to achieve that growth? What's made you so successful in really, I think, a really short time period? Yeah, I think it's understanding the market. So, you know, we've all recently celebrated Moodle's 19th birthday. It's been around for quite some time. But we've been involved in the Moodle space for 13, 14 years ourselves through various methods. So, you know, we've obviously understood the market for that length of time and we've evolved with that market as we've gone. So, yeah, I think it's understanding where the opportunity is and then meeting that opportunity and that need that people have set of reference really servicing people that come to us to have the requirements, make sure we really look after them and ensuring that those customers are really happy with what we're doing and growing, not just with our new clients, but with existing clients as well. Yeah, that's obviously a combination of the expertise with Moodle itself through that long history and then also a customer focus. One of the things I was wondering in coming together, the two of you, do you have bring different things to the table or if you've got similar skills, you both come from a technical background? Mike, could you give me a bit of insight into that? Sure, yeah, we're both from a more commercial background than a technical one. So, we've always relied on our fantastic team to really deliver the projects that we work on with clients and to maintain and support them. So, we should always give them a shout out for the great work that they do. But yeah, I think from a commercial background, we did then, as we sort of were working together in the early years, divert our attention, split our attention, I should say, to get things done. So, I, for example, worked a little bit more on the building our in-house development capacity and building that team out and working some of the custom projects that we worked on in those early years. And so, for example, might have worked a bit more on the finance and the marketing side and things. So, we did diverge, I think what's really interesting now as we grow is we find ourselves coming back closer together again. Again, just referencing the team as we grow the team and build out the company. We're able to bring some fantastic people in to do the kind of things that we were doing in earlier years. And they quite frankly can do it much better than we can, which is what a great thing to be in. So, myself instead find ourselves coming back together a bit closer in terms of strategic thinking and running the business at that sort of level compared to our previous sort of split responsibilities. Yeah. And obviously, presumably, both Moodle advocates, when did Moodle come into the picture? And why do you rate Moodle as a platform? So, I think on that one, as Mike mentioned, we're a good 13, 14 years deep with Moodle now. Many of our staff have been using it for at least a decade, if not longer. So, there's Majid Zain, who's our head of support, there's Marcus Green, who plenty within the Moodle community will know and various other developers that we've worked with. So, the team and ourselves very much included have used Moodle for a very long time. So, we kind of naturally adopted Moodle as the LMS that we knew and understood and could build a business around. But obviously, we backed Moodle as a tool as well, just because we knew it, we wouldn't have necessarily just naturally used it. But we loved its versatility, we loved the fact we could work with schools, unis, corporates, large and small and different sectors and across the globe as well. So, we were really fortunate at quite an early stage to work internationally. So, across the good 30 odd countries, I think we're at now in terms of where we've worked. So, we knew it well, we knew how to sell it, customize it and or manage the teams that customize it and support it. And we backed it as a tool. And then to see in more recent years, some of the developments, we're talking about the Moodle four upgrades that will be coming over the next year or so. And for some of our staff, the newer ones, this will be the first time they've done it, but we were there for that whole 2.0 upgrade and 3.0 upgrade. And we've seen those developments and how it's improved over the years. And obviously, Moodle Workplace was game changing for the, I think, the Moodle community as a whole and HQ and certainly for us as a company, it's allowed us to win and deliver some really good projects for some key clients with Moodle Workplace. So, we knew it well, we backed it as a tool and it's just been really great to see how it's developed thereafter from HQ and the wider community with partners ourselves and many others included as well. Yeah, I mean, absolutely, that's one of the strengths of Moodle, isn't it? That must have global community partners contributing, prioritizing feature improvements and HQ as well, obviously, working on the development of the different platforms. So, absolutely. I just want to talk a little bit about that you mentioned this Moodle Workplace and what that provided you in terms of opportunities in the market. It would be really good, maybe Mike, if you could talk to us about a few projects that you've been involved with in recent years. They don't have to be workplace-based, but whatever you think, you know, it has been really sort of key to Titus' growth. Yeah, sure. I think Workplace is definitely a bit of a game changer in terms of the type of opportunities that we've been able to secure and the type of clients that we're servicing now. We've been winning fantastic clients for years now, but there are certainly some clients that Moodle Workplace made that a bit easier. So, I think we've been sharing our case studies, for example, on the Network Rail project, which is a really large project, one of the largest Moodle Workplace projects I think that anyone's done. And really, Workplace did help us to secure that, and if Workplace wasn't available as a product, then potentially, obviously, that might be some of the features that Network Rail are looking for and they use and they absolutely love necessarily being available in Moodle LMS. But LMS has been our bread and butter for many, many years as well, so we still have a fantastic affinity for that. So, I mentioned Network Rail, a very psychological society, another large installation of ours using Moodle Workplace, but we have other clients like Stupid Rye and Dermalogica, you know, using a combination of Moodle Workplace or Moodle LMS. And when we speak to clients, it's really a case of understanding which of the options suits them best. Do they require the features of Moodle Workplace? Would they perhaps like a little bit more customization or custom development work? Maybe Moodle LMS would suit them better. So, it's really a choice for each client and we consult with them as to which one they might prefer and ultimately, we support them and hopefully implement a successful project with them. And I imagine clients come to you with a diverse set of challenges, but do you see common themes in terms of problems that they're trying to solve? I think everyone's looking for the outcomes. We can sometimes get a little bit hung up on the technical side of Moodle and that's our job. Our job is to make sure that tech, the stack, it works well, the product works well, that it looks great, that it does everything that it wants. But I think the commonality is that all of the clients we work with are looking for outcomes, positive outcomes, either positive learning interactions through engaging content or engaging courses, they're looking for course completion certifications. If you're using Moodle Workplace, you may be looking for programs and how can you combine content across different courses and that can be used into a programme of learning. So, I think that's really what everyone in this space needs to keep in mind. Clients are looking for positive outcomes for the learners, whatever that might be, whether you're selling courses online through Moodle and you want people to complete those courses, whether you're an internal learning development team, you're looking for inductions or on-the-job learning, whatever it might be, and for people to undertake and to take those sort of things that you're looking for them to do. So, I think that's really the commonality. Clients often think that they're asking for something that is unique to them and they will have their own spin on it, of course, and they will need to customise in their own way, but a lot of the time we do see these commonalities where everyone's really looking for positive outcomes. Makes sense. I mean, that's why we're all here, yeah, online to create positive learning experiences. So, you know, that's lovely that you referenced that and there's complexity around achieving that, obviously, across different organisations, but that's something you're saying everybody has in common. Do you, you know, so it sounds to me as if you may have in previous years had more of an education institution focus and that perhaps has evolved more broadly to working with organisations around workplace learning. Do you see those two sectors almost coming together? I'm curious about that because they have a different vernacular, you know, they talk in different language, workplace learning talks about upskilling or compliance management, education institutions are much more, I guess, pedagogy focus, but do you see, do you see that those two sectors sort of colliding perhaps? From my perspective, the tools that they're using and the way that they're implemented could possibly cross over and come a little bit closer together, but following on from what Mike said there, people have got, everyone's similar in the sense that they've got outcomes, but those outcomes will differ and if you're looking at a university student or if you're looking at a K12 student, their desired outcomes are very different from the desired outcomes of someone on the job and in work, so I don't necessarily see the two coming together too much, but one thing that we found really useful over the years is working with these different organisations. You can certainly learn lessons from each of the different types of organisations, so the way that schools run their e-learning or create content or share it with the students and the way that a company or a large corporate does that can be very different, but they can share those ideas and one of the things we did the other day, I was just catching up on it last night, actually, was a Titus customer roundtable and it was really lovely to see the mix of people within that, so Network Rail that Mike just mentioned, we had the Labour Party from here in the UK, we had Super Dry may have been on there and they're all using it for very different outcomes but they're there to get together different sectors, different sizes of organisations, some are selling access to the courses to external users, for some it's purely internal, so I think one thing where there is that overlap and that kind of coming together whether it's education and corporate or non-education or it's different sectors is the ways that they're using the platform and kind of sharing those learnings within one another and amongst each other. Yeah, that's awesome, what a fantastic thing to facilitate bringing those organisations together to do an inner way to share learnings and think about how they're potentially using the platform in different ways, I mean it does align with Moodle itself obviously having been born as a platform for education and probably understanding how to facilitate good learning and then translating that into a workplace environment, there's synergies there which is which is really lovely. So from your perspective obviously the sector has changed over time, you've been around for a while and I'm curious I'm curious can you sort of identify how people's needs have changed, how organisations have changed over that period of time? Yeah of course, I mean there's the obvious one this past year which was just game changing in plenty of ways, it was challenging but I think we've come out of the back of Covid far better than where we went into it because people's demands were just so much higher so people needed the learning there and then, there was no kind of excuse for not having it accessible all the time, the way that the systems were used and the pressures they were putting on the technical resources changed massively and the speed at which we and other companies had to react to get things set up was increased and we had to do things yeah bigger and better and faster so this past year has been a little bit of an anomaly but I think moving forward some of those things will probably remain. The obvious ones I think now which we're talking about a lot and starting to do more of ourselves is the content creation people now especially we're in that era of Netflix and Spotify and Apple Music and all the rest of it where you've got good quality content just a second away and people expect that high level of content and just accessible all the time so obviously mobile has come into that quite a lot but good solid content creation and I think learners in particular are not willing to accept that boring one-hour slog of the e-learning content or a batch of PDFs that might have been accepted a decade ago or even five years ago so content and the expectations of that I think have increased significantly and then just being that accessibility anywhere anytime any person any device that's been a fairly significant shift we've seen as well and then just tying into that from more of the technical perspective and or looking at the organisations themselves that are delivering that learning would be looking at the integration with other systems and making sure that you've got that streamlined across everything whether it's a simple single sign on whether it's pushing data back and forth for better analytics or reduced admin time but I think there's certainly an increased expectation there as well around integration and how well all of these systems play together. That must have placed extra demands on your team have you had to upscale the team to respond to the massive increase in demand but also the demand on systems themselves to be able to cope with that when you talk about integration scalability uses etc so might maybe you can answer that? Yeah we've been quite fortunate really you know Covid has been absolutely awful for the whole world but for companies like us where there's been an increased demand then obviously we've had to meet that demand so fortunate in that sense you know our headcount has doubled in the last 18 months it's been a challenging journey as referenced there and we've done everything that you reference there I'll be in terms of the you know the technical stack and making sure that that's optimised in a way to meet that growing demand we've obviously taken on larger clients than perhaps we have done in the past as well as we've seen this great movement towards online learning so the demand has been great and we've been pleased to be a small part I guess of that movement and being able to support people that have needed online learning while you know face-to-face and more traditional methods of learning have not been available and internally the challenges of doubling a headcount in a short amount of time well it's nothing new for us we've been growing quite rapidly since the beginning which is great but yeah it's always challenging when you're doing that and bringing new people in but what's fantastic about that is we're bringing a new generation really into the Moodle ecosphere if you like you know some people who we have worked with in the past or have been worked with Moodle for some time yes it's great to bring them into the business really experience people but it's also great to bring people into the Moodle world that haven't worked with Moodle before and I get exposed to it for the first time bringing that new within to make sure that you know there's new enthusiasm for Moodle with it with a new generation that is awesome that's great to hear and you must have obviously senior developers that are mentoring those younger presumably younger staff or younger with Moodle in terms of experience that must be very satisfying to see to see to see them grow you are both at the coalface with customers you've been on this journey of e-learning or online learning over the last few years if you had a crystal ball and I said it's 2025 let's say what do you think clients will be asking for what can you see what can you feel the edge of that's coming that you think will become a more standard demand in a few years time I think what's interesting about this is it's thinking about where we've where we've also just come from and been in in recent years the move to cloud has sort of almost passed people by or just become you know an acceptable way of doing business you know when we when we first started out and even in the earlier years they've tied this you know we were still doing on-site installations at client premises and all of those kind of things and you know the move to cloud for example has sort of been met with a bit of hesitancy in the early years and but now it's just a really accepted way of doing things and you know we we see trends talked about you know gamification and all these kind of things do they actually land are they not really as I've said before for us it's all about meeting the demands of the clients and servicing those demands and not necessarily putting labels on things but if we talked about what's what's actually upcoming engaging content echo what Seb was referencing earlier in terms of mobile learning you know and shorter learning activities micro learning as it might be referenced now and then we're at the advent of the age of AI aren't we and you know what what are the what are the expectations there from people so I think it's it's really interesting to look back at where we've come from and how we probably talked about cloud you know 10 15 years ago and would that ever be a thing and then you know it was discussed and then actually it just now is a thing and everyone's you know really quite quite keen and happy to to to be using cloud is AI going to be something similar you know where where it comes in gradually and certainly almost sneakily you know is prevalent through all of our learning activities. Yes I'm very interested in the AI phenomena are you referencing it in terms of looking at data in multiple ways to inform differentiation or or you know working with learners to perfect the delivery of learning content. Exactly that that's it so having a look at what what actually are we trying to achieve again a reference back to how it comes and what are those different outcomes that people using Moodle are looking for and how can the data support that you know what are we seeing in terms of engagement levels or activity on the site and success metrics you know all these kind of things that we have a lot of data for but do we actually analyze that and use it and what could what could AI do to support that so I think that definitely room for more analysis in that area and you know how it comes to be based on what people are actually seeing in the data and how can we get some of the the code doing the heavy lifting of what we can't really do ourselves at the moment. You've both alluded to a little bit there as well but I think just to add on to that AI piece I think it's very much about like the personalization of learning as well if we're to look to the future how can we personalize it and how does it become more informal how do learners just jump on to learn because they want to learn and Martin starts about this at various conferences in the past and what Moodle 5 might look like and all the rest of it in future but how can the content be specific to those users and if they need to learn the same type of thing do they need to do the same activity the same course the same program or are there two different ways to achieve that but depending on the individual can that be personalized can they change the pace at which they're going can you add on to filling gaps where there might be weaknesses as well so I think certainly that data and analytics point and completely agree with everything you and Mike have mentioned there but I think wherever it can be used to personalize that learning experience as well could not be a good thing. Absolutely it's bizarrely counterintuitive in a way what you're really talking about is technology and data actually making things more personalized it's a sort of it's a cool concept I think because it's challenging to accept but I agree I see that myself so yeah clearly you've sort of pitched both technical requirements and then things that are more learning design focused to bring it back to today you know from your perspective what how should people be setting up Moodle courses to engage learners like really simply what are things that just come to mind straight away that you see is really representative of good learning design or course design. Yeah so I think one of the bits again going back to the early days we've always talked about so we've always done theme designs for example at Titus Moodle has made some great strides over the past couple of years to work on the UI and UX but I think if we're all very honest like in the past people have bad mouthed it for the design or the interface and one of the things we always did was that UI UX piece to make improvements to usability but also in showing that the brand was was running through the platform itself and when we were talking I remember Mike quite distinctly saying this in the early days it's more than just that login page or that dashboard it's going behind that and it is getting into the course the course formats the content and the activities themselves and making sure there's some some depth for that so I think aesthetically and from a UI UX perspective it's looking at the course the course format the course structure and how that can best be best be used and again considering the learners that you've got on there a seven year old child is going to need it very different from a 37 year old professional in a in a legal firm or whatever else it may be so considering the audience and making sure that the UI and UX is nailed having a range of different content and Dan one of the delivery managers who's just joined us previously he's got a pedagogical background and worked with Moodle in terms of admin and content creation so having a good range of things that are there for interaction and communication between the users making sure the content can be delivered in the best way and again considering video considering audio gamification Mike touched on a little bit and how does that assessment piece all roll up into that as well so I think a couple of bits there would just be that the range of content and then the UI and UX and not forgetting about it when you get to that course level or content or activity level as well creating a diverse range sorry Mike it's about engagement isn't it it's a subspace so making sure the platform itself isn't a turn off for anyone that you know the last thing anyone wants to do is to log into a platform and be turned off and obviously with Moodle and with what we do at Tias you know we make sure that's not the case and then it's down to engagement you know how do you engage with the learners and how they're taking part and how you're getting to know maybe individual learners through the different activities and what you're seeing so I think you know again you can talk about you know micro learning how to set up your course making sure you do this that and the other and actually every client is a little bit different in that respect but fundamentally it comes down to engagement and making it a positive learning experience and if you do that then learners will engage and they will enjoy using Moodle. Yes and it links back to what you were saying earlier about the demands on content creation and our expectation for content across different media whether it's as you say podcast audio video so we're much more sophisticated I suppose we want all preferences accommodated in the way we deliver learning materials. One of the things I've been thinking about particularly because I have been in a position in an organisation where I've had to select recommend a technology platform is who is responsible for making the decisions in organisations about what and how they will use a particular platform. My experience is that it often involves more than one person predominantly because there's some people thinking about it more from a learning design perspective and there'll be other people thinking about it more from a technology perspective. Would you agree with that Seth? Yeah definitely especially with a lot of the larger organisations we work with there are various people involved in that decision making process and as you said you've got the learning side the tech side you've also got the regulatory and governance side in certain firms you've got the financial people like these big investments for LMSs with big organisations so there's lots of considerations and that's really clear to us when we're going through a say a tender or a bid process and you get your spreadsheet with 200 rows of requirements and that's very split out and you can categorise who those have come from but that's important and without we've always talked about getting the buy-in from the right people without the buy-in from management and all the learning tech team and all the technologists who are running the internal infrastructure side of stuff then is never going to work if you've got one person or one small team pushing it upon people it feels forced you need to get that buy-in so certainly important to get all of the people involved in that and we've mentioned it a few times so they're not too many but it's back to that desired outcomes often people start with we need it to do this this this this this if you flip that around and say what do you want the outcomes to be and then how do you match that with that and what solution would you put in place and that's exactly what said Delika who's our solutions architect that's exactly the way that she would work she would be saying what do you want to achieve right let's then work backwards and see how we can best achieve that um so yeah certainly need plenty of people in that that decision making process and I think if you can flip the requirements around a little bit to go outcomes how do you achieve it that's that's always helpful as well. Outcomes from multiple people I imagine and and in some ways changing the language up depending on the stakeholder you might be dealing with do you tend to deal with one person who represents a whole group of people or are you working with multiple people within an organisation or institution? It really ranges yeah really ranges I think now certainly we deal with with a number of people and they'll have again my use of different priorities and a different angle on things as well which is quite nice to do so it helps for us because you've got specialists in each area you've got different buying as I mentioned there from from each area as well and we can also from our side put certain people to chat to different I might chat with someone who's maybe the the contract owner or the finance person but the leaky which I very much chats with the the learning technologists and what you're looking to achieve you've got Magid who chats with the tech guys or John who chats with the tech guys so we can put different people to chat with the the relevant people on the other side as well and it's we enjoy working that way I think that was a nice shift from education and also K-12 education where you had one individual who was expected to do everything um we're now chatting to people who've got very specialist interest in different areas. Awesome yeah okay well look it's been wonderful to talk to you both I feel like I've taken a bit of your time and I know how busy you are before we go I was really curious just to understand how many people have you got working with tiders across the organisation? It's about 35 currently um August upon we'll have about 40 by next week we're recruiting a little bit in the moment and expect that number to jump up quite significantly again next year so as Mike said we've had quite a good few years of growth um we're not really in it to say we employ this many people um it's a metric to some in terms of how well well you're doing but ultimately for us it's just making sure I've got the right people the good people and enough people to deliver what we what we sell ultimately so growth is obviously um a big target for us we are ambitious we do want to do really well we've always talked about being the Moodle partner of choice so we've got the people there but more importantly we've got the the right people and decent people. Okay well to wrap up we'd like to ask our video interview these three questions to find out a little bit more about them so the first one relates to us as Moodle and I came to find out from you guys if when you think of Moodle what comes to mind in three words? Um the first one I think probably a really common answer about community um if this isn't the first thing that people say then I'm not sure what else they would but the community is just um well it's it's fundamental to everything isn't it Moodle right from right from the start we can obviously be really appreciative of everything Martin has done but the community has been there throughout and it's been a major part of where Moodle is now so I think the community effort and everything that they do is brilliant. I think opportunity you know for us and for other people you know who are using Moodle is a great opportunity they're a fantastic tool to really get the best out of what they're doing and for us as an opportunity to grow a business around this this really unique product it's fantastic for us um and I think as well a bit more of a technical slant on it I think the code um you know I don't know how many lines the code um called Moodle is now but it's it's an awful lot um and it's it's continually growing um and being optimized so I think um those are the more technical focus and you get a little bit more hands on and it would would definitely be picturing the code when the word Moodle is loaded. Mr trickier Mike if you'd have gone for modular object oriented I could have finished off the rest. That would be an easy answer. I think from mine and it's all kind of in the similar vein that the three I'll mention but it's like it's open, it's expandability, it's versatility and we've talked about that a lot today that we've got clients across 30 odd countries in multiple we did some customer segmentation of the day and there was initially a kind of 30-40 sectors and we've had to slim it right down and try and put them into different areas but for each of those we're using the same core platform and we're just on top of it tweaking different bits the setup, the config, the plugins, the third party systems we're integrating with the way that we service it and support the customers but it's amazing to me how you can have one tool that can work so well for so many different people and if you look around if there's I don't know one particular car will that work so well for families and individuals and couples and those who go camping versus going on a race track it's near and impossible to find something like that and I can't think of many other examples where one particular tool serves such a wide range of users so well so yeah for me it's openness and all things related is certainly a massive point. Oh how lovely, flexibility it's amazing yeah definitely a strong feature. Okay so a bit about yourselves when you're not working do you work weekends both of you? Yeah I try not to. Weekends are for family time but we put the hours in during the weekend yeah trying to try and dedicate at least some time now it was very different in the early years obviously but now try and have some family time of a weekend I'm not sure if your answer would be the same. No probably a little a little different I quite enjoy getting involved with other companies a little bit as well and it's kind of advising and helping others which by no means know it all but after eight years you do learn some useful lessons in all things business and entrepreneurship so I enjoy that side of things I've run a podcast previously which I just wrapped up earlier this year but that was again interviewing other entrepreneurs and try my best to stiff it get a good bit of exercise eat drink be merry and yeah find some time for my girlfriend social friends and sleeping between. Absolutely you've got to have fun definitely all this leading to the final question then said so if you had to name an entrepreneur or a public figure that you really admire who would you name? I have two Depends if you steal my one or not. Yeah right well I'll go for so not typically referred to as an entrepreneur or maybe not as the first thought but would be Jay-Z so obviously the American rapper come from nothing too much at all used his fame his presence to turn that into multiple brands and there's various videos I just absolutely love his his mindset and his kind of growth attitude and no barriers in the way of him and then almost as a kind of I don't know this is a bit of a stretch but a comparison to Moodle and so I'm not versatility but would be Richard Branson which might be an obvious one but again turned his head from airlines to Coca-Cola just cola version cola to radio and everything in between so I think the things that he's done there is is amazing and just there's no limits so those are my couple. That is great I wouldn't have expected the first one well maybe it's maybe I would but it's just really nice to hear it from a technology company so that's really great and what about you Mike? Well I think I think it's probably a fairly modern answer but maybe a slightly controversial figure but Elon Musk and what he's doing these days you know where he's been from you know it's crazy and you know what little boy doesn't want to go to space so you know I'll get in that hyperloop and kind of go really fast so yeah I think looking at someone like Elon and what he's doing controversies aside if I may but yeah just the range of things he's pushing forward with and being successful with as well you know 10 years ago 15 years ago who would have thought that you know the private space race would be in the current position so yeah I think looking at that you know you can get a lot from from admiring people like Elon. Oh absolutely certainly a visionary look guys thank you so much again for joining us and thanks to everyone who's watching if you have any questions at all please don't hesitate to contact us via the links on the screen either to us directly or if you have a project that you're keen to talk to Titus about we'll also provide you the contact details for them so thanks guys and talk to you again another time