 Hi everybody and welcome to this webinar today which we is on climate COVID-19 and the collaboration we need. I can see there's quite a few of you already online so we're going to make a start now. So this event today is the first in a series of webinars that is co-hosted by IID and ICAD on climate, on the climate crisis and COVID-19 and working together for the change we need. So this is the first in the series that will be hosted between June and October. So we've got an excellent panel of speakers today who will be introduced in a few moments and we're also really delighted to see that there's so many of you on the call and that number is keeps increasing. I'm joining us from all over the world so thank you very much for joining us today. So with that I'm going to hand over to the chair for this event Andrew Norton, IID director. Thank you so much Julia and many thanks for all your work putting this session together. Delighted to welcome you all to this session on climate COVID-19 and the collaboration we need. So this is focusing on the intersection between this extraordinarily disruptive global event pandemic and what we need to do going forward in relation to recovery from that building back better but also climate action. So let me introduce the panel, we've got a fantastic panel. Fatima Denton, delighted to have you joining us Fatima. Fatima is the director of the Institute for Natural Resources in Africa, which is part of the UN university based in Ghana. And Fatima is formally a trustee of IID. So we're really delighted to have you with us. We also have joining us Achela Abisenghi. I think all three of our speakers are alumni from IID. Achela is the country representative for Papua New Guinea at GGGI, leading the country program on green growth and climate resilience and also formal head of global climate law and policy at IID. But last and definitely not least, we have Salima Huck, who is the director of the International Center for Climate Change and Development, IKAD in Bangladesh, who we are co-hosting this webinar series with. And I wanted to say a few words about Salim before we start, if you'll permit me. Fatima has made an immense contribution to my organization, IID, and until very recently has been wearing two hats. For some years, one as director of IKAD, which he founded, and the other as an IID senior fellow. And he has very recently finally cut the cord with IID and happily moved full time to IKAD, and I can't let this moment pass without a brief acknowledgement of the fantastic contribution that you have made down the years to my organization, IID. You shaped, I think, many of the ways we think about locally based and community driven adaptation at a global level, and much of that you did with IID down the years. And specifically, you started IID's work program on climate change over 20 years ago, which is a really fundamental contribution. And I'm very proud of that with really outstanding clarity of vision. You did such a great job identifying the strategic spaces where we could make a productive contribution. Like the work program with the least developed countries, which you, Achela, and other wrap analysts, took over and left with flare and distinction for many years afterwards. My colleagues have asked me to stress a couple of other things that are exceptional about you, Salim. You're a totally democratic person that you treat everyone, whether it's a head of government or a young student, just the same. And this was something that everyone really commented on. Equal attention and interest to everyone. And secondly, your particular interest in mentoring and developing younger professionals. And the work program of clack fellows at IID, I'm sure we'll have many alumni of that on this call, but there was a really outstanding and path breaking program. And it is great that you are now providing that outstanding strategic vision and leadership to ICCAB building a world class institution in Bangladesh, that it's been a real pleasure for me in my years in this job to see grow in this year on year. But on behalf of IID, thank you so much for everything that you've done for IID down the years. Now let's move to the session. COVID-19 has had such a dramatic global to local impact at so many levels that it's a challenge to grasp it as a piece from kind of dramatic impacts and increases in poverty and inequality to unprecedented traction for countries and even at a global level, and also rapid changes in social norms. We're all living differently wherever we are in the world, so the way we were even in early January. So it's an extraordinary and unprecedented global disruption. And it's shown us that we need to abandon the old and normal ways of dealing with emergencies and thinking about disruption. It's highlighted that long term complex challenges like climate change and short term crises demand new ways of working and new responses. And the pandemic has also highlighted global and local inequality the world over. It's been people in the most precarious living situations and working situations who've born the brunt of the illness and of the economic impact. So what can we learn from the pandemic from this experience and the global response that can help us to tackle that huge global issue of the climate crisis. So Salim, I would like to go to you first each panelist will speak for five to seven minutes and then we will move into a general discussion and I'll be picking up questions from the audience at that time, but Salim please start. And the particularly for those kind words of introduction. Actually, although I've formally now left ID doesn't feel like I've left idea I feel very much still part of the organization because for me, you know, ID is full of friends and they remain friends whether you're still paying me any salary or not really doesn't matter anymore. And so the same thing with friends like Fatima and Achala, even though there are different parts of the world, our friendship crosses those boundaries and and remains. That's one of my abiding memories of working in ID and I hope continue to work with ID going forward. So let me start by sharing a few of my thoughts from where I am located here in Dhaka Bangladesh about the link between COVID-19 which is now still a major problem here in Dhaka we're still in lockdown, working from home over the last month and continuing to do that. But the fact that even though we have this public health pandemic on our heads at the moment, it doesn't mean that climate change has gone away climate change is still there. And we were reminded of that fact just a couple of weeks ago here, when we had a super cyclone I'm fun hit, fortunately for Bangladesh it hit India first and then came to Bangladesh but it still did a lot of damage. Fortunately, not many lives lost because we have a very, very good emergency warning system and people took shelter, more than two and a half million people were able to be get the warnings and take shelter, so that the, the lives lost was minimized but nevertheless there was a lot of damage done particularly to the Shundurban forest, which got hit first and then that also protected the human habitation but there was a lot of damage to the forest the flora and the fauna there. And so, you know the and the fact that it cyclones are not new cyclones happen every year, but this happened to be a super cyclone because the Bay of Bengal sea surface temperature was elevated by over a degree and I understand that the Indian government has just launched a climate satellite where they're now monitoring these temperatures on a regular basis and they have verified the fact that the Bay of Bengal temperature was elevated above normal which turned it into a super cyclone, which we have we rarely get normally we get normal cyclones, we don't get super cyclones so this was a particularly bad one in that sense and we're likely to get more of them so the bottom line is that climate change continues climate change impacts continue. And even though we have a COVID-19 crisis at the moment, we're going to have to deal with both crises at the same time, public health crisis on the one hand, climate change crisis on the other hand, and an economic crisis as a result of that as well. And so, to me, just to share a few thoughts of my own coming out of this, firstly, to me one of the biggest lessons that the COVID-19 pandemic global pandemic has brought to us is the necessity of leaders to listen to the scientists. And we have a vivid demonstration of leaders who listen to the scientists who have protected their populations, for example, the Prime Minister of New Zealand where Achala is now sitting who are now COVID free, and the leaders of several countries including the richest and most powerful country in the world who refuse to listen to their scientists and are responsible for the depths of thousands of their own citizens. And, you know, think of anything worse as a decision maker of these leaders and he's not the only one there several as well around the world which I won't name, but we know who they are and they, they have by ignoring the science killed, I'll say killed their citizens and that is really unconscionable and climate change is another one climate change scientists have been saying this for a long time. And, you know, they aren't listening, they have to listen if they really want to help their own countries going forward. The second, I think emphasis of example that our lesson that is being conveyed is we live in a globalized world there is no way to put walls and and barriers around your country, you can try to do it but you're not going to do it, it's not going to be effective. The pandemic goes around the world the virus goes across borders and Bangladesh will also be affected as every other country will be affected and we will need to work with each other. So, whether we like it or not the only way to take our ideas forward and to come out of this crisis is to work together is to cooperate collaborate, share knowledge and experience and help each other, as it were. And then the third and final point I will make is with regard to who gets affected. And you mentioned a little earlier that the work I've been doing at ID and I continue to do is focusing on the impacts of climate change on the most vulnerable communities in the most vulnerable particularly the least developed countries in Asia and Africa, as it happens, the pandemic and particularly the lockdown measures in the big cities like Taka and and Mumbai and Cape Town and Nairobi are affecting the most vulnerable communities in the slums in these big cities right now, who are also going to be the victims of the impacts of climate change so it's a double whammy for them in the sense of the most vulnerable to the impacts of climate change are also the most vulnerable to the COVID-19 and therefore the corollary of that is anything we do to deal with the pandemic and the economic recovery has to take into account, not just the green recovery or green future, but also an equitable recovery where we take care of the most vulnerable to me, just being green is not good enough, although I support green investments and recovery, but green has to be also equitable, where we think of not leaving anyone behind thinking of the most vulnerable and enabling us to support them and to be able to help them going forward so I look forward to potentially having a further discussion about this and charting out a way in which we can continue our global collaboration across the four of us and our institutions are going forward. I think the challenge has become bigger, but the need for our collaboration has also become that much bigger as well. I'll stop there for now and happy to come back later. Thank you very much, Celine, very, very rich comments. Achela, would you like to go next? Thank you so much, Andy. Hello to all of you. Thank you for the invitation and also introduction. What a privilege to be in the panel where we also celebrate Celine. Celine is my guru, as many of you know, to put it simply, I would not be where I am today without Celine, so thank you so much, Celine. I think I joined thousands of others, potentially young and old and all sorts of people who had the privilege to work with you to say that you taught me the best lessons in my life to fight for what I believe in, fight for justice and the most vulnerable and I think I'll continue to do so. Thank you again. Andy, you introduced me as the country representative of the Global Green Growth Institute. This is where I am now after 12 years at IAED. That's where I actually grew up. GGGI is an intergovernmental organization. We work in 37 developing countries. We call them our partner countries and we are all embedded in government ministries. GGGI, Papua New Guinea, my team is in the Climate Change and Development Authority and we are also based in three provinces in the country and I have an amazing team tirelessly working for mainstreaming climate resilience and green growth into development plans and mobilized green investment in the country. So that's just a brief introduction. Andy, you mentioned the various parallels between the climate crisis and the COVID-19 crisis and Celine also alluded to some of it. Just to highlight few things from my side that the fact that impacts are both, impacts are borderless. So we have to work together is a point that I think we have to emphasize and repeat. And the other one, Celine, you mentioned is actually now we are realizing it is a good idea to listen to science and that we have to base our solutions on later science and that the long term resilience has to be at the center and the inclusiveness has to be a main principle that we include in our responses. So as we speak right now, I understand there are few countries in discussions on green new deals Europe and South Korea being most prominent players. I think the whole world needs a green new deal. But I want to emphasize the fact that the fact that once one solution that fits all will not work. The reason why I say it is because if you take Pacific for as an example, the region has managed the COVID-19 health crisis, very amazingly so far. Their responses were fast. For example, leadership of Papua New Guinea took swift actions, clearly communicated those to their communities, and the team of 8.5 million people in the country abided by the rules. And it is the same in many countries in the region. However, let's not forget that even with the number of limited cases, what our countries have realized is that they don't even have the basic health care resources and the fiscal reserves that some of the countries in the north have. In some countries, even a dozen patients requiring serious hospital care would strain the whole health system. So even if the region has so far avoided the worst health effects, the economic impacts has been devastating. I want to take the example of tourism sector. In one of our two, 70% of tourism workers have lost their jobs. Cook Island has estimated to have experienced 60% of GDP loss in the country just within the first three months of COVID crisis. In Fiji, 93% of tourism sector related businesses have gone out of business, and PNG has tourism associations have made desperate calls for support, and there are no fellow schemes in these countries. So when they're out of jobs, they're out of jobs. And the most unfortunate situation I think as Salim also alluded to is that this is not the only disaster these countries are facing. The region is extremely vulnerable to climate impacts such as cyclones. And unfortunately, they have lost the little gains that they have made in the process of recovering from most recent cyclones. So that's the situation we are in in the Pacific, and that's why I'm saying one size fits all solution will not be suitable for these countries. So what can be done, I'm going to emphasize three areas, priority areas actually for the Pacific. The first, as I mentioned the tourism sector. We need to think about opportunities and options for circular economy and resource efficiency in the sector by reinforcing and enhancing the interdependent relationship between tourism and the ecosystem services such as reefs, mangroves, forests, while promoting the model of responsible consumption in the sector and adjacent industries. And the second one is the, the sustainable energy side of the whole discussion. This is this must be a key area in all stimulus packages. Because it's a huge opportunity for countries such as PNG, where access to electricity is only 10% of the total population in the country, despite abundance of renewable energy opportunities. So improving access to electricity alone will create a strong enabling environment that stimulus job creation and strengthens other economic activities. Third, sustainable agriculture production, improving domestic supply chains, greening transport, creating local jobs and ensuring greater long term food security and resilience to climate change I think is essential in our responses. How do we do this? First, focus on just transition. For example, in short term it is important to make sure stimulus packages provide short term income support for out of work employees. Some activities may include providing for example cash in exchange for green training or labor on green projects. This is similar to what we have called just transition in the climate world. When we were negotiating Paris Agreement for example, we were pushing for just transition. So here's an opportunity actually to employ the principal. And the second is the NDC enhancement exercise that all the countries are in and also the roadmap development for low emission development strategies. And I think if you think strategically, this is an opportunity because the countries are still going through the exercise of enhancing the NDCs. For example, PNG is just starting the process. So I think we need to think about how to include COVID-19 recovery packages and in the NDC plans and the low emission development strategies. And the third is the coalition similar to what we had during Paris Agreement negotiations. We had high ambition coalition led by Marshall Islands. We had climate vulnerable forum. We had the Katahina Dialogue. I think all these coalitions now must revisit their agendas and combine COVID and climate diplomacy together to push for the most ambitious recovery in the post COVID-19 world. Finally, I cannot forget the younger generation. I cannot emphasize enough how grateful I am to the youth of the world who have actually become better leaders than our political leaders. So I hope they take the COVID crisis also into their consideration in pushing their adults to take responsible actions for now and for future. Some of these points that I've mentioned are already in GGGI's action plans. We have contacted all heads of states in our partner countries through our president and chair, Mr. Ban Ki-moon. And also our director general, Dr. Frank Ritzperman. For Pacific, we have linked our responses to short term income support, as I mentioned, and long term job creation. So this is also all these ideas are also in our country business plans for next two years. And very happy to share for the information if someone is interested. So let me end by saying that this is a crisis that we are all suffering from. But the best that come out of this is the recovery packages being used as our last opportunity for a greener resilient and inclusive world. So my plea is let's not waste the crisis. Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed Achela. Great points. Let me move to Fatima now and then we'll try and put some of these things together as we move into the discussion. Fatima. Thank you. Thank you very much, Andy. And thanks to Salim and to Achela. If you would allow me, I think it would be a little bit indecent of me almost to say something about Salim and not to have a word or two to say. I remember sort of going into the whole climate change discipline. And I think that one word that comes to mind when I think about Salim and his passion. He's a very passionate, you know, a strong advocate for climate change and a strong defender of rights issues and any form of injustice, but particularly injustices that are related to climate change. And many of us that came into this field. We were looking for literature and work that we can identify with and he was one very prolific writer, but also somebody that made it sexy that made it appealing. And also a very strong entrepreneur. I would say that's another word that I think of when I think about Salim. We didn't know much about Bangladesh, but Salim, we saw Bangladesh through the eyes of Salim and got to know a little bit more about that. But in general, I would say for everything related to Southern empowerment. Salim has been that sort of great great advocate and for that I'd like to thank you and for for everything you've done also in this area, especially for being a mentor to many of us. And Andy, in terms of the questions that you're asking related to COVID-19 and climate change, I sit in a crowd in Ghana. And I think that if we're looking at it as a set of parallels, one of the, one of the important points I think to make it's been a set of good news and bad news, I would say. But I think one parallel that comes to mind is the fact that all countries, except for a few, irrespective of their wealth and technology, their infrastructure, we're completely unprepared for this. Which tells me that the response and the systems we need and players, the infrastructure we need and players, the capacities that we need to build are not in place yet. We are woefully unprepared. And I think one of the lessons is how we how we can build back better. Another important parallel for me is the fact that this has been an induction course in the possible. We have seen that this is possible. It is possible to reduce emissions drastically. It is possible to put people before economies. It's possible to change our behaviors. It has been possible. Yes, we have seen a massive drop in terms of 5.5% in GHG greenhouse gas emissions and that's impressive. But we're still nowhere close to what we need to do. And I think the point that Salim made is a very valid point. Even as we speak, we have to think that there are three crises that are intersecting here. And forms of injustices that are intersecting. We haven't been able to airbrush climate injustice with the pandemic. It's still here. There are many structural problems that are still here. And I think we need to look at how in addressing this crisis, we take advantage of this as like Charlotte said, not to waste it. To see this as a metaphor for or address rehearsal for building back better. One of the important points I thought I'd make also is that we need to not say we've got it or we've got there. We need to say, how did we get here? It's not enough, I think, to keep saying yes, we did it. And this means we have to re-examine our roadmap. We have to look at the tools. We have to look at the strategies. We have had 25 years of negotiation. And it tells me that it goes back to the old discussion. Is it negotiation versus coercion? How do we do this? Because we haven't talked enough about the necessity for illegally binding treaty. And even though we got there, we got there at a cost. And the cost is quite heavy, as Salim said, to some people, more than others. So even as we talk about building back better, there are reference points that we need to, I think, take into account because building back better is not the same for Aishula in Papua New Guinea or for somebody in Ghana or somebody else in another part of the world. So I think we need to look at that aspect. Third point is the whole debate about sustainability versus business as usual. How do we maintain the levels of emissions reductions that we're seeing now? Some critics have said this in the past, that these emissions, and you said it, Andy, you alluded to it at least, that these emissions have come about as a result of economies contracting. So that tells me whether this equation of, you know, endless growth or, you know, continue with our consumption patterns as they are, whether that is a model of development that we can afford. And how do we ensure that, you know, the theory of decoupling growth from fossil fuel productions, how do we actually do that properly? For Africa, the temptation is going to mean that countries are going to take advantage of fossil fuel, cheap fossil fuel prices. It's going to be part of their economic comeback. And I think that we can't deny that. It is easier for a country like Zambia to take advantage of imported coal from China. And it's quicker for Zimbabwe to take advantage of coal that it can just dig out of the ground and South Africa to do the same. So the economic aspect, I think, is going to maybe occupy much of the attention of African leaders than environmental sustainability. Now we have to find incentives that can encourage them to look at environmental sustainability and economic comeback together. And many of the Achilles' Hills of Africa is in the areas where we're supposed to make deep cutbacks. So energy is a problem area, and we need to look at how we decarbonise our energy systems. But also how we can enable countries in Africa, many of them are very reliant on fossil fuel, and may risk for going to rents that come from fossil fuel. So how do we allow them to have a kind of managed exit from these fossil fuels? I think those are all points that are going to be extremely important to take into account. But I think one last point, if I may, and do very quickly, is that I do not see how we can continue this trajectory if we leave behind the informal sector. I think the informal sector is, you know, as I said before, I mean, I'm saying now is the Achilles' Hill of Africa, but it's also where Africa has the greatest opportunity to get even with poverty. And this is a sector that has suffered under the lockdown and restrictions. It's also the sector where most of the jobs in Africa are contained. 86% of all employment is contained in this sector. We have young people that look to the sector forward. So I think the informal sector is going to be a very important sector to look at. And so too, we have to learn about how we plan our, how we do urban planning better, how we redesign cities. You know, the stimulus package, as Salim said, I do not think should be conditional to green at all costs, because this can be, it can be analogous to a traffic light sort of scenario where you have to have people in a fast lane. You have to have people in the middle lane and you have to have people in the slow lane. And it matters that each of these lanes have the relevant incentives so that they can make green, a definite staple of their economies. But I think urban planning, especially in Africa, where this is the one of the regions that is urbanizing at a very fast rate, how we fix air pollution, you know, how we think about urban life. I think it's going to be an urban health, I think it's going to be greatly important. So I'll stop here. Just to say that actually mention agriculture and I just wanted to say that in that mention, if I could say that the agricultural sector is one where we have to do better in Africa. Africa is importing. It's importing food. We are 35 billion in spending 35 billion in terms of imports. But we are also importing food that we can produce. We are importing over 22 million metric tons of maize, 47 million tons of wheat. And some of our markets are flooded with goods that we can source from different parts of Africa. So I think we need to look at this and how we transform the agricultural sector. I mean, agriculture is an industry in Europe. In Africa, agriculture is not a lucrative business at all. So these are things I think that we need to look at in building back better. Thank you so much, Fatima, three very, very rich presentations. If I just pick out a few points from each one, Salim was talking about lessons from COVID, listening to the credible science, the fact that these threats are globalized. You can insulate yourself from them and the need for an equitable and green recovery. Actually emphasized, you know, the fiscal weakness of many of the countries we're talking about, they don't have the same resources. They don't have the same options that countries with hard currencies do in terms of investment. There's a huge thing to solve there. Also the need to bring the COVID recovery efforts into the way we look at the NDCs and the contributions to Paris. And of course, this incredible emphasis on youth. Many of the forms of activism on the street that we've seen haven't been able to continue that and have gone digital. But how does that energy continue? And a very rich set of comments from Fatima agree completely that this really highlights in a climate sense how unprepared many countries were for something they should have been prepared for, that it was a predictable risk. But also the importance of the informal sector, absolutely. And in an African context for long term resilience. This question of how cities will be shaped, formed or designed for a resilient and low carbon future. Salim before going to questions from the audience, can I just put you one other lesson that I think is interesting in this context, maybe not simple, but is the importance of urgency. You mentioned some countries have handled this better than others. They're mostly the countries that went early. So it wasn't so much about how you locked down. It was about when you did. And in my country, the UK, there's an estimate from an eminent epidemiologist that 20,000 lives would have been saved had the UK locked down a week earlier. So that thing about exponential growth. Now, there's a lesson there, isn't there? Because we've all been saying for a long time that there isn't enough urgency in acting on the climate crisis, but that urgency has to be found in a global framework, not a national framework. Do you have any thoughts about how we can apply that lesson? Is it possible? Yes. So I think the COVID-19 crisis in itself is a good illustration of that. As you've just said, this is now self-evident. Those who moved first, listened to the science and moved first, were able to protect their citizens, their own citizens. And those who came late were not. And in fact, I hold them responsible for those deaths because they refused to take action. And we can make the same case for climate change on a much bigger scale, unfortunately, on a slower timescale. So it's not immediate like the COVID crisis is. And so you don't have to lock down and sit in your house for weeks, but you do have to be better prepared. And I hope that that would be one of the biggest lessons that our leaders will take on board. You know, going up to COP26 now, the UK is in the presidency of that. I would say the UK bears a big, big, big responsibility in taking that message to other leaders around the world and ensuring that climate change is not dropped off the agenda. It is made a high priority. And the lesson being those of you who will move quickly will be better off than those of you who leave it till later. And that is the big lesson. And again, just to pick up on our role in all of this, I think we have a big role to play in terms of getting the evidence and putting it together in a global context and not just speaking to our own national leaders, but the global leaders collectively. And in the past, I think we have not done as good a job as we should be doing. And particularly in the sort of global think tank world, if you like, it's still very predominantly northern think tanks with a few of us in the south as token voices, I would say. We need to do better than that. We need to have a much more rounded group of institutions and people working together in a much more solid form of solidarity and producing the evidence that speaks to all our leaders in different ways. And Fatima is quite right. Your messages are not exactly. It's not a one size fit all message. It is, it is disaggregated messages, but there is a one size fit all overall message of tackling a global problem like climate change that requires everybody to be doing something. But the something that everybody does can be different in different places for different people. And that's really I think an opportunity for us as think tanks and researchers. Thank you very much to leave a great answer. I'm going to move now to the questions that are coming in from the audience and we as Juliet was explaining we have this voting system on it. So the, the, the most votes are for a very topical question which I would like to put to all three of you. And it's one that's very much in our minds here. So this is from Megan Rowling I would like to ask the panelists whether they think the UK government's move to merge the FID with the foreign office with FCO could have an impact on Britain's climate adaptation and resilience work in developing countries. And if so, how. So, actually, would you like to have first go at that one. Shall I have a go before you have a go. Yeah. Okay, so I think it's a bad move. That's for sure. You know, the, the fact that if it was an independent department with a secretary of state with a cabinet rank, made a huge difference for the UK's aid budget to be ring fence to tackle global poverty and humanitarian issues which Mr Johnson is he does not like and he wants it to be subordinated to political interest. And you know, in his speech in Parliament, he calls it the great cash point in the, in the sky which you know, extremely derogatory view of the development and why Ukraine shouldn't get more than Zambia if he doesn't know the difference between poverty in Zambia and Ukraine. You know, I have no faith in him being the person in charge of what to do best with money that's supposed to help the poor. On the other hand, in the climate change context, I am not really that disappointed, you know, I would prefer the UK to give their climate obligations, climate finance obligations to the world that they have agreed to under the UN Framework Convention on climate Change. And I really don't care if they're eight, they want to reduce eight to zero. Let them do that. That's their business shut if it down. What does it matter to us, but give the money that you have to give us under climate change that's that is an obligation that we will hold you to aid is not an obligation aid is just charity that you decided you want to give. You don't want to give it don't give it, but climate finance you have to give and we will fight you for that. Thank you. That's great. Thank you very much, Salim. Do either of the other panelists want to come in on that? Are you going to pass? That was a great answer. Fatima, please do. Yeah, well, I think it's not very surprising. I think we all knew it was coming. So I think it's not very surprising. Most of us have grown up with knowing DFID and working very closely with DFID. And I think that DFID has a way of looking at the problems related to climate change and other parts of development that is particular to DFID. So I think the merge in a way for us, you know, it's not surprising, but we knew it was going to it was going to happen. And, you know, some of us are not very pleased with it. But, you know, that that's how it is. On the other hand, I think they merge looking at it from a foreign policy perspective. It's not a bad thing in the sense that most of the climate related problems do have a foreign policy dimension. If you look at issues around international waters, that has a foreign policy dimension. If you look at issues around migration, there is a foreign policy dimension. So I think sometimes we tend to silo these things. And so I think bringing it together that part of it at least would make a lot of sense. Thanks very much Fatima. The next question is from AKF UK, which I take it is Aga Khan Foundation. A lesson from both crises is that our leaders and organizations cannot just listen to scientists. We need a multidisciplinary approach that listens to a broad range of voices and sectors, local actors, social movements, women, the informal sector and so on. The effects of marginalized groups will not be taken into account. How do we ensure that this collaboration happens and happens at a deep and transformative level. So, great question. Who would like to take that on first. Who would take their time to think I'll jump in again. So I think that that's the nuts, the hub of everything. But what we have to realize is that the governance and democratic space within a country differs from country to country. And some countries have greater space and other countries have less so. Over the years, during my time at IID and still now at ICAD in Dhaka, I've been doing a lot of work with the least developed countries. These are 48 of the poorest, most vulnerable countries in Asia and Africa. And within each of these countries, the governance and democratic space varies. Some places it's more than in other places. So you have to work within what is allowed or what is available to bring the different voices together. But one universal fact, which is true even for richer countries, is that poor and vulnerable members of societies always get short shrift. Decision makers, whoever they may be, even if they're elected decision makers will listen to the rich and powerful and will help the rich and powerful, but they won't help the poor and the most vulnerable. And you see this now in the United States, you even see it in the UK with the COVID affecting, you know, black and immigrant populations, you see it with the black lives matter in the US. These are manifestations of misgovernance where decision makers and rulers simply don't care about certain parts of the population. And the only thing that we can do who feel this injustice and want to do something is to get better organized. It's to use whatever democratic space is available in whichever country we happen to be operating in and at the global level as well and try and bring the forces for progress together with our voices. And we as researchers have a significant role to play in terms of gathering evidence and to the extent that knowledge evidence research can play a role in affecting decision making, we must use that to get the right kind of decisions to be made. So, you know, I'm always a normative researcher. I don't do research for research sake. I do research to get something changed in the world and that is fighting injustice. Thank you so much, Celine. Fatima, there's a question for you come in from Professor DJ. I like the discussion about environmental sustainability and the need for economic growth in poor countries in the post COVID era. Do you what do you think are the options for African countries. Looking at this sharp economic contraction being reported across the country, across the continent. Sorry. How do you think African countries can best respond to build that better in this context? Well, I think like we said before, the stimulus packages should not just take into account emissions reductions and make it conditional that that should be, you know, we need to have a green focus. My sense is that in terms of African countries responding, I would say that there are several ways in which we can respond. I think firstly, and this is probably the reason why so we shouldn't just focus on, you know, on emissions. It's a wholesale transformation by the way. When we focus also on energy systems or emissions at all costs, we miss the other parts that are fundamental to Africa's development. I alluded to agriculture as a sector that, you know, is where it's Africa's bread, bread basket basically that's where our food and everything else is reliant on. So if we if we build back better and we don't take into account agriculture and agricultural practices and how we make that stronger, then we might not go very far. But similarly, I think we could also look at the ways in which we can look at technology differently. This crisis has really made more apparent the technological injustices also, you know, if you look at it from a digital perspective, most African parents cannot afford for their children to follow courses and, you know, go to school through virtual classes and internet because it's very it's very expensive to be connected here in terms of bandwidth and all of that. All of those those issues. So I think we are way behind from a technological perspective from a digital perspective. And these are areas where we need to where we need to do better. By the way also to say that the one of the reasons why I keep coming back to agriculture is the fact that most of our emissions and not in energy. Most of the emissions that we produce the emissions that are coming from agricultural land degradation and land use change and that's why I think it's very important that, you know, we make agriculture front and center in terms of our response systems. Other sectors could be manufacturing for instance, you know, Africa does have an aspiration to industrialize. We cannot industrialize in the way that Europe has done. We have to industrialize differently. We have to look at other forms of energy systems to be part of our industrial sort of value chain. But that also comes at a cost. And like I said, there is this temptation to go for cheap energy where where we find that. And you cannot industrialize without energy. So energy is going to be a very important part of that industrialization trajectory. But we were employing less fewer people in manufacturing than we should. And so more efforts have to be given towards the manufacturing sector. And like I said, again, the informal sector has to be supported. It's a sector that's hemorrhaging. It's a sector that's affected by lockdowns by stringent impositions of cofus and restrictions. Most of our food systems are contained within this sector as well. And so I think these are all ways that we can we can feel that better and where we can we can have better response systems. But again, I have to emphasize that, you know, the historical emissions have to be looked at. We cannot just be rushed into a pathway that says, Yes, you must go green and greening is not going to happen overnight in Africa. And there are many countries that see their fossil fuel industry as part of their sovereign rights. And they would want to continue to take advantage of that. So I really feel that we need to dissuade them from going down that lane. We need to say that this is a blind alley. And that maybe the future is green, but it's green based on how we can support you in achieving some of your strategic goals, education, you know, making sure that our public health system is really fit for future. So these are all, I think, ways in which we can we can we can we can support the region in terms of how we can get it can get better. But but but but and Andy, every time we talk about this, I always feel like to some extent we are not also talking about the relevant infrastructure that will support that. And I think Salim talked about solidarity. Solidarity also starts with, you know, not slapping a 30% tariff charge on processed food like chocolate bars when cocoa is sourced from Ghana or source from Cote d'Ivoire. You know, we have to look at these subsidies that are granted to farmers in Europe for every hectare of land they receive a subsidy. And how is an African farmer supposed to compete with that. So, so, so building back better again start sweet, making sure that those injustices do not get items do not become even more perverse. Thank you very much Fatima. Before we close there's another question I would like to put to you. And it's opening a big can of worms but hope you can deal with it fairly quickly it's from my colleague Simon Anderson in IID who you all know well. We have the fiscal space that poorer countries need to invest in transitions and recovery. Debt relief obviously has to be a huge part of that we all know that at this point. How can we leverage the process such that debt relief is part of the just transition process Fatima do can I go to you again on that one. I would just to say that, you know, and Simon knows this country like Nigeria that rely a lot on, you know, fossil fuel oil and gas have had to revise the forecast in terms of rents that they're getting from this. Many countries are highly highly indebted and the foreign exchange earnings that they could get from these resources are no longer there so it makes them even more sort of, I mean it increases their vulnerability in terms of how they might service their debts. And that is a problem as it is. So in terms of the, I think there's a lot of talk about debt forgiveness. But I think that again, you know, we have to put things in perspective I think definitely we need to look at where countries would want to move away from carbon intensive sector, perhaps there might be some debt that could be forgiven. But first countries would be able to take advantage of that space and build a manufacturing sector, build the agricultural sector, you know, support better urban planning so I think some some of that could be useful. But I think it should be channeled in the right direction and if it's helping these countries also achieve some of their sustainable development goals. But I don't think it should be towards the agenda of, you know, northern countries to say, yeah, we will do this but provided you give us that I think it should also speak to the broader strategic goals of poorer countries so that they take advantage of that fiscal space as well. That's a great answer. I am now going to move to the last question to all three panelists but first let me say huge apologies to anyone who I didn't get to your question on. There were many more than I could have dealt with but if you would like an answer your question please feel free to email me and I'll forward it to the panelists for them to respond afterwards. Last question. Going forward, what is our role and what kind of collaboration do we need. Actually, can I go to you first on that one please. Thank you so much Andy and I think I did mention several options for collaboration at global level as well as at local level. Some of the comments I think Fatima and Salim mentioned also emphasize the need for social inclusion and gender equality and that's something I think we have to keep in mind in terms of making our coalition stronger because that people-centered approach I think will be better in terms of building back better and it has to be people-centered approach and there are options and there are examples for optimism. This has happened in countries like New Zealand where actually the leaders took a people-centered approach for a better response to the not only just the COVID crisis but also the climate crisis through the carbon neutral act and other actions they are taking. So in terms of diplomacy I mentioned that we need a coalition's countries to come together, those ambitious countries or developing countries from Latin America, from Africa, from Asia and the Pacific to come together to push for things that we actually add in the negotiations, in climate negotiations, some actually still think that the Paris agreement was not good enough but being at the center of the negotiations I know until the last minute we didn't think we were going to get 1.5 degree target or we didn't think we were going to get a provision on loss and damage and we got them and the countries are now preparing their plans to actually take those actions forward. So I think the coalition's both at national, global level and national level and local level that are people-centered is extremely important. One thing I think we all of us didn't mention enough is the private sector participation. I think the business-friendly environment to address those challenges that Fatima is mentioning in Africa for example is the same for the Pacific. In Papua New Guinea the business-friendly environment is not there yet and we need to put those business-friendly environment to encourage private sector to come in to actually invest in the green sector. So yeah I will stop there and just maybe last point to say that in terms of debt release and all these trillions of money that's going to be injected into addressing the COVID-19 crisis is actually going to be majority of is going to be borrowing against our future generations income. Many more years to come, 5, 10 or even longer and the governments are spending money now, today, 10 or 15, 20 times more than their budget allocations and so that needs to be meaningfully spent. And otherwise we are putting our future generations into even more debts but without taking a meaningful approach to actually utilize the resources to be more socially inclusive and developing a sustainable manner. So I'll stop there. Thank you very much Andy. Thank you Attila, thank you for that and for your great contribution throughout. Fatima, you next. I think both Attila and Salim have mentioned this. I think solidarity is a key word. The paradox might be that the solidarity that we saw in COVID-19 might probably now end up in isolationism as we go forward. That's where countries are thinking more about their short-term economic benefits and that might be the result of that. So yes, I think solidarity is going to be a key concept or practice rather than we should all head back on and sort of take advantage of. That said, I think also another point or another word that Attila mentioned is this coalition of voices. Yes, it is true that scientists were at the forefront of this pandemic but some scientists also got it wrong and some scientists also acted way too slow which tells us that yes, science is important, but science has to, it's a science of humanity, science has to come together with people. So we need to enlarge the space for science to have a place but for other voices in Africa we've seen parliamentarians, we've seen religious leaders, researchers all come together in this shared space. So I think we need to have that form of deliberative democracy where we see different people coming together because it is a shared problem and it's only through that way that we're going to address it. And this also means that northern and southern researchers have to come together. The solution is not a solution for one region, it's a solution that we all have to be part of. So I think when we're thinking about all of these ways forwards, you know, it's important that we use our collective force, our collective intellect in addressing the problems. I really do feel that this is a new opportunity for researchers in the north and in the south to come together. Thank you very much. And going last to Salim, Salim I just need to say, I don't know if you've been seeing but I've been seeing lots of messages flashing up in the chat box in tribute to your incredible contribution. One, if you didn't see it from Pao Spanjaju, who's a great leader also of the List Developed Countries Group, now doing great work in the global climate in the green, sorry the green climate fund. So anyway, let me go to you last now with the question, what is our role and what kind of collaboration do we need? Thank you very much Andy. This has been an extremely rich conversation. It's great to share thoughts with good friends like yourselves. So I'd like to end with a very practical way forward in my view. And that is to link myself, which I do in my day job with Article 11 of the Paris Agreement, which Achala mentioned, it was, we had to fight for it. It's on capacity building. It's not a particularly contentious issue. Everybody loves capacity building, but we had to fight to get the article in the Paris Agreement to challenge the way capacity building was being done until then, which was northern countries sending consultants to come in to developing countries do a workshop and fly out. We call it fly in fly out capacity building with leaving very little behind. And we challenged that and we got a new article included that said that capacity building is needed in all countries to deal with climate change, and that in country capacity building systems have to be developed. And as I said, my day job is in a university we do networking of universities in Bangladesh and across the least developed countries. And so we are investing a lot of our time and effort in enhancing the capacity to do capacity building, not just doing these one offs. And my colleague, Professor Mizan Khan with with a couple of his students did an analysis of all the NDCs that have been submitted. And interestingly, he found that the demand of capacity building was higher than the demand for finance. You know, everybody wants more capacity building is a new problem. They don't know what to do as Fatima's question you even the scientists were telling them what to do. We don't know exactly what to do either, you know, we, we, we think we know we can give some advice but we don't know if it's going to be useful or not. So I think we, we as researchers universities think tanks we have a particularly important role to play in developing that knowledge base and supporting decision makers from all sectors from the the national decision makers down to the local level in providing them with adequate and sufficient knowledge that they can then use in taking their own decisions as to what they want to do, or what they need to do. And I think that's a big gap that at the moment, you know, there's not much happening there. There's only little bits and pieces happening and it's very northern centric in terms of both the funding and the issues that they want to talk about so you know just to take climate finance for instance, a lot of money to do mitigation in the poorest countries who have very little limitations, but almost no money to do adaptation which is what they need to do it. And so, you know that lopsidedness in the funding structure something we can argue against and try and rectify but at the same time, we can also engage in meaningful research that demonstrates the value of this kind of research. I'll stop there. Thank you so much. It was so great to have the three of you with us as fantastic conversation. Please, everyone on the call, have a look out for future events in this joint series between IID and ICAD looking at this moment of great turbulence and what it means for the way in which we can face these challenges going forward, the climate crisis and others like COVID. So huge thanks to Celine, to Attila and to Fatima for your great contributions. Thanks to everyone who participated. And yeah, thanks very much to everyone and bye bye. Bye. Thank you.