 Why 254? IMAGIN! 25th of February, 2019. Thank you for joining us on top of the hour tonight discussion. Mandi will be looking at the corruption and we want to see whether we will move from handshake to handcuffs. With me in studio is Daniel Orogo and Gunjeri Koryuki. Kadyuki will be telling us whether we are fighting this demon called corruption. We want to keep it Y-254 at Morani Hilari. Y-254 channel is the Twitter handle to use. Welcome to the program. We look at the stories making news highlights. My name is Dereva Hilari. Now following the recent proposed reforms by the president, DCI boss George Kenyuti has announced Richard for other directorates that have seen a number of senior officials move to different departments. He said that more movement would be seen in the course of the week across the board. In other news, the National Irrigation Board is on the spot over 200 billion tender for a multi-papas dam in Kitui County. Already the NIB has been fined 250,000 by the procurement tribunal for disobeying orders regarding the dispute that has dragged on since May 2017. President Uhuru Kenyata mandi directed Madaraka Day to be celebrated from Narok County and North Kajadu County due to unpreparedness by the county government of Kajadu. The committee expressed concerns that Kajadu Stadium construction works may not be completed within the remaining three months as Alia envisioned. Elsewhere constituencies, eight constituencies rather cannot account for about one billion shillings allocated to them from the National Government Constituency Development Fund Auditor General Edward Orko says this is in a report covering up to June 30, 2017 that was tabled in the National Assembly last week by Majority Leader Eden Duale. Elsewhere an Italian firm CMC Durevena that was contracted by the Nakuru County Government for the construction of Itaridam has denied claims of its bankruptcy. The multi-billion controversial project has had several challenges that have led its stalled progress. On, university students have written to take the streets to the streets of a plan to increase tuition fees. Speaking to journalists outside the University Towns in Nairobi on Monday, student leaders from various universities declared that on Monday next week they would hold on country-wide demonstration to protest the raising of fees from 16,000 to 48,000. Now the Kenya Medical Supplies Agency, KEMSA, is facing a financial crisis of a delayed payment of 2.4 billion oj to aid by county governments at development that is threatening to crypto-medical services in the country. The crisis has since altered the Senate Committee on Health which has summoned Council of Governors Chairman Weekly for Pranya to explain why the counties are not meeting their obligations. In crossing the borders, Nigeria's civil society group says over 30 people have been killed in a post-election violence, voters went to the polls in a tight presidential race between President Muhammad Buhari and businessman Atiku Abu Bakar. The group, say the death toll rather during Africa's biggest election was higher than that of the 2015 poll which was widely considered to have been orderly aside from Boko Haram attack that killed more than a dozen people. And now finally Theresa May has again delayed the parliamentary vote on how billing a big Brexit deal in a desperate effort to buy more time to revise it some with Brussels with just 33 days until Britain is said to leave the European Union. Speaking to reporters while traveling to an EU Arab League summit in Egypt on Sunday, May said it would now happen by March 12th, Amia 17 days before Brexit Day. You are now up to date with Y254 news highlights and tonight a reminder will be talking about corruption and we want to see whether we are winning this fight against this menace in our country. And with me in studio is Daniel Oroga, political analyst as well as Gonjiri Karyuki. Welcome gentlemen to our studios tonight. Now we saw what happened last week at Tanzania government jailed a woman from China nicknamed the Queen of Ivory and we have seen people being through allegations in our country corruption cases that is. But then the question is can Kenya be where Tanzania is like today? Gonjiri. Okay Hidari, thank you for having me tonight and I appreciate for the opportunity. First, let me infer the fight against corruption to the condemnation that it has even from the good books of faith. It is in the scripture, in the Bible, Proverbs that any ill-gotten world will not last for long. In the Quran and in the book that they call the Kitabu Ayub, a letter that was written by somebody called Raib something says do not acquire what you have not duly paid for from the Indian Hindu Bavagar Gita when the war of peace between two conflicting sides on who should inherit the kingdom as it was in the families of Padu and Adyuna the disciple of Lord Krishna by the name Adyuna is in the battleground and looks at both armies and sees relatives and friends and wonders why should we fight because of property. That also tells you that the Hindu Gita does not compromise on a well that is ill-gotten or a person who wants to get something that is not due. Can it be at that point? Of course, we have seen a renewed fight against corruption and this has come in the wake of the handshake. This is a post-benefit of the handshake. Therefore, tonight I want to believe that Kenya to answer your question can get to that point where we say Kenya is a corruption free society and we can have an affirmation of institutional justice whereby it will begin with each and every citizen taking their responsibility in the fight against corruption. Therefore, to look at it from what I normally like calling the prismatic angle or from a wide angle, I want to throw the responsibility of fighting corruption to the citizens, to the government and to anybody else, any stakeholder in our political and democratic ecosystem. All right, yes. All right, or rather before you respond to that, Kenya is perceived to be one of the most corrupt countries and a research in 2017 out of 180 Kenya was 143. We have had a series of corruption cases like the NYS, the Eurobond and now given these observations, what measures can Kenya take to stem the snapping theft of public resources? I think first of all, let me join my colleague just thanking you for inviting us to this debate. No pleasure. It's been a long time and I'm happy to be back now that we are on DSTV. We have been listening to you. We have, we are happy to be. But let's begin here by saying that there is no and I said in a different platform, the problem that we are having as a country is that we've never found any word in our mother tongue that we can define corruption because there is nowhere, there is in your language, there is nowhere you can, what do you call corruption? In my language, what do you call it? But all our languages have got something called theft and how to deal with it. So would we begin by first of all asking that our national, you know, our national intelligence and our national values must recognize corruption as public theft and public plunder. So that makes it easy to deal with thieves. We can't know how to deal with corrupt people but we know how to deal with thieves. From the thieves of a village chicken to that that's planned as a lot of money, we know how to deal with them. But they are treated differently by our judiciary. But now as we, this was just my open remarks. Kenya has found its way in one of the, you know, like you said, whatever there is a survey that is done and a report is given and how we are faring in our corruption index. There is a sense in which we've never, you know, we've never gone high or down. We are always stuck into some level and you see we only compare to countries like Syria and other areas in Nigeria where corruption is the norm of the day. In this country, we have a robust constitution that really articulates on the values that we are having as a country. Our president and Excellency Uwuru Kenyan has made so right when he was in Kisi and he said that when you found corrupt, corruption does not align yourself to tribe. It doesn't align yourself to religion. It doesn't align. It is an individual responsibility. But what we really need to see is a lot of concerted efforts insofar as fighting corruption is concerned. And my colleagues who've read elaborately about building bridges initiative, one of the, among the pillars they have mentioned is corruption and dealing with it. How I wish that our friends would, you know, channel their views to building bridges initiative as to how do we specifically deal with corruption and as opposed to how we should be, you know, finding a way to do referendum in building bridges initiative. So I think this is the trajectory that we should be, you know, taking as far as this discussion is concerned. We have seen people being accused, especially in the NYS, they go to court but we never see the result. Now would you say the judiciary is undermining the fight against corruption in Nigeria? Well, let me first begin by underscoring a very weird statement that has always been smeared on corruption. I hear that there is a new description and a new adjective in town that corruption in some good words is the cost of doing business. Okay. I take you. At the expense of the monainchi. Yes, at the expense of the monainchi. Not withstanding the kind of adverse effects that it has on the economy, on the social contract and on our politics. Coming to your question on the issue of NYS and whether the judiciary is actually interdicting the war against corruption. We have a reason as Kenyans to doubt the judiciary. Of course coming from what they have done in the past. I don't want to get into specifically into the judiciary per se but I want to quote what has been in the public domain. Allegedly and as you have seen the judiciary has made some weird rulings which even Aleman can be able to look at them and wonder whether this is justice as is supposed to be subbed. Therefore I believe that we have a reason to doubt the judiciary and to some extent yes the judiciary has taken has played a role in frustrating the war against corruption. Of course even quoting the director of public prosecutions Nudil Haj and his adverse opinions on how the judiciary has been taking matters corruption. We have so many problems of course coming from lack of enough and corruption quotes. Also we have seen some of the lawyers who even admit in public that they know which judge takes bribes. Therefore I believe coming from what the judiciary has given us we have a reason to doubt them and also lay some blame on them. It is time that they put their act together and also precipitated this war because we have also seen the judiciary also being accused of delaying cases. True true true Yes so and it is good that we are having this discussion here and also a devising on policy because the judiciary also needs to pull up the socks to some extent and make sure that even if it means burning midnight oil let them prosecute these cases as fast as possible so that Kenyans can get But you understand I agree with so much of what my colleague listen fight against corruption is multi agency and we have very three or four offices that are really trusted with fighting corruption and are given what I call quasi judicial authority to expedite what corruption is One office is the office of ODP the office of DCI and Ethics and Direct Corruption Commission so before I presume that before a case is presented to the judiciary or any court of law due diligence might have been done should be done so that we have a watertight case and that even goes on with within how we investigate even before this files for prosecution so I agree to some extent that you see judicial offices are human beings and you see there is a sense in which their nature as human beings might compromise the cases that are before them but you see we also need to look at what is the role of other agencies insofar as probably presenting to the judiciary a very tight case so that it is not thrown away because of lack of sufficient evidence or proper investigation and now coming back to what you just mentioned at the anti-corruption conference in bombers of Kenya something caught my eye and when we begin to politicize the war on corruption it becomes a problem a few days later one of the Jubilee henchmen says you see we were discussing corruption but whoever we were discussing was also present so you see whenever you make such statements and you know everybody draws your attention now people begin to hear do we call for these conferences to discuss people or do we call for these conferences to diligently deal with matters of national importance so I think one of the areas that we are also doing badly as a country and which president Kenyar has in the spirit of handshake and it should look at these as a way of in his first term when there were corruption allegations and exposure for example Eurobond people would sit on the fence and point fingers and mention names and come up with tribal mobilization our people are being hounded and our people are being treated unfairly NASA by that time was it called NASA or which affiliate court by that time would sit on the fence and say you see you need to do this Jubilee would defend it the following day so it was becoming a problem to tackle corruption but in the spirit of working together I think that right now you've seen both the principals and both opposition leaders and the president are saying that even if the governor that affiliated with my party is found to be eligible I think the prosecution body should take in charge and follow up through the process it makes it more easier alright we will be taking a very short break and when we come back now we will be seeing what should the judiciary do among other things to ensure that people caught or if people are prosecuted due diligence should be done in terms of finding had evidence to ensure that these people are jailed we take a very short break do not go too far