 Gweithio'n ddweud. Mae'n dyma'r ddweud bach a'u gwneud hynny yn cyfweld ar gwybod hwnneud. Gweithio'n ddweud ar gweithio'r ddweud o'r ddweud. Gweithio'n ddweud ar gyfer y sefydliad a'r ddechrau am y cyfweld angen i'r 24 eich hunig. Dyma'r dyfodol digital yw 4,2 miliwn a'r gweithio'r gweithio, dwi'n ardal yn y internet. Mae'r ddweud yna yn gwaith ar gyfer y gweithio'r yn gweithio. Felly, ydych yn dweud y cwrdd, dweud rydyn ni'n meddwl cael y cyfnod y peth y gallwn i ni'n meddwl am hynny'r wlad gyda'r internet yma. Mae'n gweithio yma, ond rydyn ni'n ei wneud yw'r Ogur, rydyn ni'n gweithio yw Llywodraeth. Yr ymdweith yma, argyrchu gylwydwyr yma, mae'r 4.2 miliwn gwneud yma, mae'n gweithio gael gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n India. Ond nid yw'r newid yn dweud o'r number 18, y gallwch yn ddefnyddio'r Unig o Amrych yn y cwrthog. Ond yn y Uino, 51 miliwn o'r peisio'r ddechrau, ac yn ysgrifennu'r internet, ac mae'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r dda, yn y tanffrach a'r gweithio'r gweithio'r Gweithlo deallwynebu. Ond, ar y dweud yw yw rhoi, mae'n petwg hwn o'r pwysig, yn gwneud ond tynod ein bod nhw'n gweithio'ch rhan. Fe'n werthfaith astudion ar gyfer'u trafodd, ap Ym Nhymru ac i ddigwyddaeth, ac mae'n ddigwydd yn yr unerol agnod. Mae'n ddigwyddaeth ar gweithio gyda los yng Nghymru, ac yn Ysgralei. And since 2010 we've helped more than 1.8 million people in the UK to develop basic digital skills. Our belief is a world where everyone benefits from digital, and it's not about digital skills per se, it's about the change in people's lives once they have that platform, so to see digital as a platform for them to tackle those other social issues that they have within their lives. I thought you might want to know who funds us, so in 2011 we spun out of a public body. It gives us quite a unique position between the public sector and the charity and on NGO sector. We had one contract with the Department for Business Innovation and Skills, and I'm pretty proud that four and a half years later we've got contracts with all of these people here. We've just got a really good contract with Google to help small businesses. That money helps us to develop our model, but also to work in partnership with a network of hyperlocal partners that I'll talk about in a moment. Once a year we publish an infographic about the digital divide in the UK. It's really important to understand that digital exclusion exacerbates the other exclusions that people experience. So digital exclusion and social exclusion go absolutely hand in hand in countries like the UK and the US and Australia and others like that. Up in the left hand corner you'll see that the people who don't use the internet are the people who have no qualifications. They're older, they're disabled and they are on low incomes. Because they're excluded from digital they're excluded from connectivity with other people. They're excluded from jobs, from savings. In the UK we've got a massive push to put public services online, and of course the people who are socially excluded and digitally excluded are the people who use public services the most. And they're also excluded from the £100 million a year that the NHS is investing in England in improving self-affecacy around health in the UK. The reasons why people are not online in the UK is very similar to everywhere else. The numbers would be different but it's motivation, they don't understand the relevance, it's not for people like me. They don't have the skills and the confidence and they don't have access. In the UK though we're relatively lucky that we've got relatively good broadband access. And so less than 1% of people say they don't ever use the internet because they don't have broadband. And so I think it's really important to understand that, as was said yesterday, it's not build it and they will come. If you've got great pipes with super fast broadband running down your street, it doesn't mean if you have low education, low income, low aspiration that you're going to then use that broadband. But access isn't enough. So often people say to me, let's just get super fast broadband everywhere and hey, click, job done, silver bullet, it's not true. And digital literacy isn't enough either because as we know from our lives, once you have the skill it doesn't mean you then go on to use it. So digital literacy, the skills, what can you do, uses, what do you do and outcomes what did you get out of this. And this is what drives all of the work that we do. So put that into context, you know how to do email, you know how to fill in online forms, you know how to upload something into an email. What do you do with that, you apply for a job, you're long term unemployed, you use those skills to apply for a job and the outcome is you get a job, you then have more money, you then feel more connected to your society. And everything that we do at Tinder Foundation we measure through outcomes, digital outcomes of course but also economic outcomes and health and social outcomes. And so every single program whether a funder asks for it or not, we build these outcomes in and we measure absolutely everything. Because we have data, we collect a lot of data around the digital outcomes and then we do a lot of survey work, we do deep dive action research. To be honest with you, I was driven by two things when I put research in absolutely at the core of the work that we do. One was because I knew that funders would want evidence, it was as cynical as that. You know like it's all very well, me going around telling people how amazing we are and you know how transformational all the stories are, all the people that I meet but actually evidence really does help tick those boxes. But then also I wanted to know if we were wasting our time. Now I wanted to know that when we go out there and we do work and we work with partners and we do delivery that actually it does make a difference and that's massively important. It's important about changing people's lives but it's also important about trying to translate that impact into monetary outcomes. And so this is one thing that we did for the government. So the first one million people we helped in a digital inclusion project, not an employment project, a digital inclusion project, then we found that 84,000 of them went from long-term unemployment into employment. The cost saving for the government after the first year of those people being in work is £678 million. So numbers like this helps us to get a bit more money some of the time from some of the people that we've shared this to. Our model is local and digital and I think this is a massive message for you guys. It's a blend of face-to-face support and online tools. So the face-to-face happens with 5,000 partners, hyperlocal partners all over the UK, public libraries, community centres, public housing, cafes, schools, village halls. These buses here they're run by a public housing association that not only have got computers on board, but they're also Wi-Fi hotspots. They go and park on estates where low-income households are. We're not a franchise network. We don't run them. We don't fund them. It's like a big club with a shared vision. So although some of these people, some of the time, do get grant money from us, actually that's all about together delivering programmes. And our main digital tool, although we have many, is Learn My Way. So this is an online learning platform. So what we do is we take people who know nothing about the internet and we help them to learn how to use the internet by using the internet. I know it sounds a little bit oxymoronic, but that's the best way to do it because we get that data. But also they're practising what they know, what they're going to be using whilst they're learning. And Learn My Way is just going through a refresh. And it's all mobile optimised and it's all free, and people all over the world just find it and use it, which is great. And we also have an English language programme called English My Way for teaching settled migrants in the UK who don't know how to speak English to learn English in a similar model. But of course it works because of that blend of the face-to-face partners who can use these tools in any way they like for the people that they're helping, be they're disabled, be they're older, be they're unemployed, be they're people who don't speak English as a first language. Right, and I've got a film, so this is a difficult bit where I show I can't actually use technology myself. Okay, let's... My name's Edward, I'm 58 years of age now. I've been out of work quite some time. It's an absolutely depressing life. Each day you just feel like you're going further and further down. And come to learn about basic computer skills. I couldn't even switch one on, to be honest. I'm just scared of it. As soon as I came on with this course, it just... I don't know the straight away, I felt comfortable. If you want to learn about computers, definitely go with the learn my way. You know, like I'm going to get a job through it. That's the way I look though. You know, that's going to get me a job, that's going to get me back into work. My husband's got prostate cancer and leukemia. We started having a lot of back pain. I thought it was fine. But apparently it's to do with your prostate. Anyway, it's not me worrying. Because I know it's not some help that he's getting. Any house needs a computer, just for health channels. O English. English karw, etle pach i marw'r bach anus college. College mageineis, bolw o ito, bolw i sako. Mae hi ar ti, cooking learning, hi ar ti, maen nhw'n gynnw ffordd o teio. Mae shop mageon, college parjon. To maen nhw'n buddwys arwt. Maen nhw'n dda i'n dda i'n dda i'n dda. Dda, mae'n meddwl be'n lwco be'w sarae jai. Lwco satef wath cheat karw sarae o lagai. Lwco satef English ma thwrw, thwrw bolw sarae o lagai. Bolw i saka'i confidence eio. Ki bahar kiwyriteb bolw anw. Kiwyriteb bod lwco satef joint karw anw. Thank you very much. I think the start of my homelessness began after the tragic loss of my brother. And I think that's when I started using drugs. I really was lost in a new environment. That became more chaotic. Rough sleeping, sofa surfing. The training, the IT. Discovering new keon lines and just running with it. It was a support that made me feel or feel encouraged that yes, I can actually recover from this in a wholesome way. And actually applied for the role formally as a volunteer teaching the same online skills that I use to get my foot on that ladder of learning. Leading towards me coming into my new role between that job coach, marrying all those elements creates a better person, a well person. I'm really lucky because I go out and I meet these people in my job. And if I ever feel like I'm not quite sure what to do next week, I go out and I talk to some more of them. And you can tell from what they're saying, they all talked about the face-to-face support that they got. They all talked about their sisters and the people around them in those centres. But they also talked about those outcomes, how their lives are now better. And not just about the pursuits of the middle class, it's not just about ordering my pizza because I can't be bothered to go out in the rain. It's about women being able to talk to their children's teacher for the first time in their children or teenagers. It's about a homeless man who is now helping other homeless people to find work and to get off the streets. This is real deep challenges that people who are digitally excluded are suffering and that by giving them these skills and giving them the support to use it then really changes their lives. So the other thing I want to talk about is digital democracy. So this lovely man in his robes is the speaker of the House of Commons. He's called John Burko. He's actually quite a nice chap and that is the Hallowed Chamber, the House of Commons Chamber. The speaker is allowed to set up a commission. Most speakers don't. And if you do it, you do it once in your whole time as a speaker. And John Burko decided to do it on digital democracy. So good on him that he thought that that was an important thing to do. And the reason he did it was because he knew these stats. The men more than women participate and vote. Middle-aged people are much more like to be involved. Although older people are much more likely to vote. And as you go down the socio-economic groups it's much less likely that you're going to participate in any kind of political activity and or vote. The other thing that John Burko saw was that more people were on Facebook than voted in the general election. And he said, and of course 30 million people and 35 million people doesn't mean there are 5 million people on Facebook who didn't vote. It probably means there are 15 million people on Facebook who didn't vote. So John realised that there was this overlap. There was this opportunity to try and find the people who were online who weren't participating. And one thing I just want to point out about this is that 30 million sounds like a good number but it is only 62% and that was quite a high turnout for UK politics. So that still means that 38% of people didn't even vote and voting is the thing that people are most likely to do with any kind of political engagement. We came up with five headline recommendations. Parliament needs to make sure that people understand it, that it's interactive and digital. There should be a new online forum. Online voting by 2020 was the one that got all of the headlines and I was mightily annoyed about that because we did a lot of work to do this and everyone went, oh, the online voting is not secure. And then the last one is about open data that you guys would be really excited about. To come up with these headlines we did loads of roundtables and consultation with people. I made sure that I went out and met people. I went to a fish and chip shop in Stockport where some of the young people who were there were paid by their employer to take part in the roundtable because they thought it all sounded terribly boring and not for them. I found out that at school people don't get any kind of political education. I've met a lad who had two children who didn't even know what an electoral role was. He didn't know what a polling station was. So if you think about the distance we have to travel. I also did a consultation with people with learning difficulties and I met some people who were illiterate who thought that because they couldn't read and write it therefore meant they couldn't vote. This is the real world of non-political engagement and I was shocked actually about how bad it was and how negative people were about the whole process but also how powerless a lot of those people felt. They felt that it wasn't about, of course I heard that all politicians are lies and cheats but also it was much more about well no one would listen to me anyway. So it wasn't that they're all bad, I'm great whatever I tell them they won't change their mind. I did hear that too. But it was also like well people like me no one ever listens to people like me. People in power don't care about people like me. And that was the most depressing part of my time on the commission. So it's been some good news since we wrote the report. They set up a parliament, I think it's called Digital Service that actually came out of a recommendation from my society report. There's a really great e-petition site that's had over 7 million people have signed an online petition and if 100,000 signatures go on a petition it's then considered for debate in Parliament which is good because there is now a process. It's about trying to close that circle that before they just had petitions then Parliament could just ignore it now it goes to the Petitions Committee. There's a heat map so you can see if people near you think the same things as you and one thing I particularly like is the Westminster Hall Cyber Chamber. Most of this is about Twitter and hashtags and one of the things I hate is about Parliament going oh yeah we're open, we've got a hashtag. But the Westminster Hall is about actually taking some of those petitions into a debate in Westminster Hall. It's then promoted ahead of time with a hashtag so people can then get engaged. So it's beginning to close that circle so you sign a petition, something happens, Parliamentarians debate it. And also Open Handsard, I think there's always been a willingness at Parliament to share data but they haven't really made it very easy for people to use that data. One other thing I can announce today is the Public Accounts Committee which is the most powerful committee in Parliament have appointed me their specialist adviser for digital engagement. So and after yesterday I was thinking maybe some of you might like to help me and also because of all your academics, love all your data and everything I was thinking maybe we should build some metrics in right from the start. So like I was saying before let's bloody make sure that we make some difference. If Meg Hillier who is the chair of the Public Accounts Committee wants to make the Public Accounts Committee more accountable, more transparent and also to engage some of those people, the illiterate people, the lad in the fish and chips will actually think that the work that the Public Accounts Committee is relevant to them that we need to make sure that we get our metrics right and that we know that it's working otherwise we'll be wasting our time. So who makes decisions that affect you? Who has the power and are they willing to share it? And I was surprised yesterday that I only heard the word power once. Is Kirsten here? Anyway she gave a really great presentation. And because for me this is the key. Politicians are not, in my experience in the UK are not bad people. But they have worked hard to get to that position of power and they don't really want to share it. Too often in my experience in civic tech world say I have a tool that can fix that oh by the way what was the problem. And I think a lot of you yesterday weren't talking in that way which is great. But actually too often it's like let's run away and build some, oh we've got some tech that could help with that without actually really bottoming out what the problem is. And unless you've been to the your equivalent of the fish and chip shop and you've talked to those people who know absolutely nothing about a single thing that you're talking about then you can work out what the real problem is and what the tool is that needs to be fixed. So this is what I always look at when I think about digital democracy and digital engagement. So those two lovely men are my sons. And so everybody above the line we can hopefully try and get to with some kind of digital tool but everyone below the line we can't because they're not digitally engaged. So Max with the hat is one of those young people who says whatever I say nothing makes any difference. He only ever votes to vote the opposite way that I vote to annoy me because he's my child. My other son is doing PPE at Manchester University and kind of feels the same way but from a position of great knowledge. But so often the great success stories around civic tech in the UK are for theatre in my younger son. It's for the people who care about politics and who are very digitally literate and I don't mean just those people who can put an attachment on an email. So for real action we need people to be informed, involved, obviously included, engaged and there needs to be real interaction. And this is the hard stuff because it's about getting out there and talking to people. So often technologies are bolt on the hashtag. And so actually without systemic change one of the outcomes is going to be that our elected representatives will be overwhelmed. They do need better digital tools. There is a big problem there that needs fixing but it's not social media training for politicians. But also they need to do democracy differently. They need to want to care. They need to get up every morning and say why are these people, why do 38% of the population not vote? Why do 95% of the people I represent never contact me? They're the questions that politicians really need to be asking. And it's hard. You know, like most politicians no, I shouldn't say this, they don't. I was going to say most politicians most care about getting elected in the next election. That's not actually true. I think they really care about making a better society most of them. And therefore to do that they need real and ongoing engagement and digital can help but it's not a silver bullet. It needs systems and partnerships and culture change. And I think that that culture change is massively important and I think that comes back to this problem about technology to bolt on too often. We say I'll just use this tool and then everything's going to be okay. But actually you need to change what your first waking thought is not. You buy a tool because someone told you a word or cloud will change your life. So it's all about people. So real change can happen through co-creation that involves those in power but also those with the least power and those people with the least power are most likely to be digitally excluded. So you need to go and find them in that blend of offline and online. Digital can help that culture change that we so urgently need because it allows you to do more out in the open. It makes collaboration much easier and it also makes co-ownership co-design and co-funding a real possibility. I said to a man, a senior public servant running libraries in Manchester amazing library in Central Manchester. I said are you open on a Sunday? He said no I don't have enough money and I said well if you set up a friends of your library I'll give you 25 quid a month and I'm sure lots of other people not just in Manchester would do that as well. We need to be much more willing and open about that co-funding debate and actually a digital technology can help us to do that. So our experience is it's not digital alone it has to be face to face. In the UK there's 12.6 million people who don't know how to use technology properly. As we saw there's 4.2 billion people around the world so it has to be that blend of face to face but seeing that digital underpins it. So I don't think it's good enough to have an offline solution for those who are offline and an online solution for those who are online. I think actually we need to be seeing digital inclusion digital literacy as a gateway to them being more included so if you have a great digital tool why not help those people who don't know how to use the internet at all to learn how to use the internet and then to use your tool to then make the change that you want it to happen and don't forget the 4.2 billion because otherwise you will be leaving them behind. Thank you very much. Thank you for the presentation. I would like to ask you about this procedure of debating in parliament if there are more than 100,000 votes by citizens. Does there are any cases when it was achieved this amount of what and what meaning debate in your parliament? Is it a draft law or something other? Thank you. So basically if there are 100,000 signatures on the e-petition then it goes to the petitions committee for a decision about whether or not it should go to a debate. But that's not as silly as it sounds because some of it is about a few of them have been about sacking ministers for example and that isn't really the thing that they do in parliament. So that nine petitions have gone to a debate and they either go into Westminster Hall which is a side chamber or they go into the main chamber and a debate means they talk about it. Okay? So they actually in the main chamber somebody presents an argument, other people will argue with it. So it's not a legislation, it's a debate it's part of the process that may well lead to some legislative change later but it's literally a debate where they talk about it. And none of them have actually led to any changes in law or anything yet anyway. So actually my favourite petition was the Stop Donald Trump coming to the UK petition. Which had the same number of votes as close all borders to migrants. So it just goes to show there's people on both sides of the debate. No, I actually wanted to ask a bit more about again your time on the commission. One of the things that we find is that we can provide the tool and it's supposed to be a means to an end as you said but one of the barriers is when politicians themselves fail to be responsive. So we can build the tool, we can get people to come to the tool but we can't make MPs respond, we can't make we just can't do that, we have a list, we send out a list every year of who's responsive and who's not but how would we kind of get that push back the other end? Obviously I can't ever say anything bad about my society because everything you do is perfect and brilliant. I think that it kind of comes back to watch the point and I guess this is about partnership and I think this is where when I was saying that digital can help you to do more out in the open but actually I think that the problem is we need to have a dialogue with those politicians about what your tools are doing that helps them to do their job and to achieve the things that they want to achieve and I think without that dialogue those politicians might think that you're more of an annoyance than you are a help and I think that that's a really difficult divide that you have to cross. I think that I don't think that we've brought politicians the burning platform yet and maybe we need to take more of them out to the fish and chip shops and go talk to the illiterate people that came to the round table at Chesterfield Library that actually getting out of the Westminster bubble I think is the most important thing. I think though that I would also say that you can have a reply but it's pretty rubbish. My MP I am appalled by the poor quality of the reply. It always sounds nice three paragraphs, he gives me the force and the force and against but he doesn't tell me what he thinks, how he's going to vote he doesn't actually say that he's going to take anything that I've said to him into account but that would be a tick in the box I got an email reply my email to him he sent me a template tick done but actually that wasn't a real dialogue so I think that we've got to create a burning platform we've got to say, you've got to reply to the people who who write to you, one of the things that we try to do so on the commission there were eight people and five of us were independent and I think all of the independents thought that we should have a job description for MPs for example they don't have one it wasn't possible so there's no obligation for them to reply to their constituents but I think it's about having that debate getting them in a room even though maybe your worst offender is getting them in a room and then talking to them about what do they want to achieve and I think actually if you did some work for example with an organisation like mine about trying to reach those people who don't vote who don't care, who don't think it's for them then maybe the politicians would think it's more interesting because if they think it's just Theo up in the top right hand corner who already cares about politics and is already engaged and is already digitally literate then they might think that there's really no point in your tools because they think that they've got all the channels they need and they're going to contact them so I think it's about that debate and making sure that the tool is fixing their problem as well as your problem Thanks, my name is Alice I'm from a company that does technology for elections around the world and I've got two questions one was from the kind of our experience we often looked at places like Estonia as examples of where there's kind of strong digital democracy I just wondered what in your work with the commission if there are particular examples you'd point to that you think are doing it really well and what can we learn from them and the second part of that is how optimistic are you about the kind of a few of the recommendations, the five recommendations a few are going to say there's one that are you now, I'm definitely sure it's going to say one I'm not so sure about what would kind of your predictions be for whether they'll be realised or not I mean I'm sure you guys probably know more than me but I mean Estonia the Iceland example I hate to say it though and I am a massively optimistic person my glass is always half full but a lot of the best examples don't include the people I most care about including and even though they're kind of representative and they randomly sample people and they make it really open and they invite everybody it still doesn't get to that hardest to reach so for example in my digital inclusion work in the UK there's 12.6 million people we want to get to by 2020 we predict if we keep going the way we're going and do all the fabulous work that we do there'll still be 6 million people who won't have the basic digital skills that they need and so what we've done is we've done a thorough analysis of who they are and we're working with them now and I think that's exactly the same thing we have to do around digital democracy and democratic engagement we have to work out who are those people who are really really really really hard and let's make sure we're helping and focusing on them because the people in the middle they need the tools but they're going to find it themselves and I guess this is partly my comment about the pastimes of the middle classes in my neighbourhood the council cutting down the trees the very well educated digitally enabled middle classes have mounted an amazing campaign and crowdsourced money to take the council to court and lots and lots of online petitioning et cetera et cetera because when they've got a problem they know how to use those tools and they know how to get organised they're not the people we most care about so I'm kind of going there aren't any so go do it go find those hard to reach people I don't think that online voting is going to happen I think that there was too much pushback from people who knew a lot about technology I mean whether they were right or wrong who said that it's not secure and it's not going to improve things dramatically I hope I'm wrong we found a lot of evidence that particularly young people would be much more motivated to vote if there was online voting but it's interesting there's quite a lot of well educated people saying do we want all these not well educated people to be able to vote really easily on their mobile phone as if there's some kind of paternalistic right to voting or not and so I think there's a really diverse debate around that rather than I think it should be about and this is what the commission says in the report about doing pilots and actually working it out and working out what the reality is before we say it's not going to work but there's too many people and it will actually require a legislative change as well so it's unlikely to get through the House of Commons as well this is a William Perrin from Talk About Local this is a very loaded question because I'm on Helen's board at the Tinder Foundation my society North America gave a good presentation yesterday where they said that five I think it was five, government sponsored civic tech tools of five of them, only one of them had any attempt to engage people who were not online or already in the target audience as you and I have discussed this Helen but given this audience here of people from all over the world running civic tech projects is this the sort of thing Tinder Foundation will be prepared to partner with if someone was putting together a proposal to do a civic tech project in a given country and wants it to have as a component of that outreach to people who are not online or indeed to people who are not actually in the automatic pale mail stale thing, whatever it was target audience, middle class target audience that tends to do this kind of thing in the first place yes I think it's a really good point and I think this is why I said about blending digital literacy with the roll out of a democratic tool or a civic tech tool is that I think at least one of the examples there was an offline channel and there was an online channel to do the same thing and they were both an improvement so the offline bit was an improvement to what was there before but it wasn't saying we're going to help those offline people to use the online tool because online tool is actually much better and the example I gave around people getting jobs was because we're not an employment project we're a project which is about empowering people to use the internet to change their lives in whatever way they want to do it and therefore it almost doesn't matter what the channel is and actually civic engagement would be a perfect would be a perfect one to do I think that there is there is a double divide though because of what I said about so many people I met when I was on the commission who don't think that politics or civic engagement is anything to do with them so you don't just have to persuade them that they can be part of the digital society that they think other people do not people like them you also have to persuade them that being part of some kind of democratic process is also for people like them too and that's the that's the real reason why Tinder Foundation isn't doing anything that combines the civic tech and the digital inclusion right now one we haven't got partners who have approached us but the second one is it's really hard if you take people who really are suffering many many different challenges and have complex lives to persuade them that actually this alien foreign distant irrelevant body called parliament and government has anything to do with them or even just in Sheffield when they cut down the trees in the poor bit of town there wasn't a Facebook group for it when they cut down the trees on the wealthy bit of town everyone's up in arms and there's social media rampage going on and so that's the reality this is really hard because you're trying to persuade people they want to do two different things that they don't think that people like them are ever going to be engaged with I did tell Winter I think over dinner on Facebook one of the only example I've got where I've been proved wrong on this is the fish and chip shop in Stockport you can tell is one of my favourite partners and they are on a precinct in a really poor part of the north of England and the Iceland a supermarket took over the car park and started charging one pound but one pound was too much for the poor people of Stockport and so the woman who runs the UK online centre in the fish and chip shop set up a Facebook group who were offline taught them how to use Facebook so that they could go on to the Facebook group taught them how to use email so they could email their councillors because they were so angry that this car park was going to charge them some money and so that's the only example that I know of where offline people who are angry about something that the councillor had done eg sell a car park to the supermarket actually got up, got organised and got online in order to do that campaigning we've got time for one more question Hi, I'm Rosie McGee from the Institute of Development Studies the world I work in is mainly developing countries so it's really interesting to hear this about the UK I'm just wondering in development studies literature there's a lot to tell us that the main resource that poor, marginalised excluded people have is their numbers and is the strength that can come from collective action rather than individual action and so one of the concerns I have is to using technologies for civic engagement are that a lot of them tend to individualise rather than collectivise and I just wondered from what you've been saying does the Tinder Foundation have a position on that and what would your view be on that one? It's a really good question I mean, I think that the blend of the local and the face to face and the digital is obviously I would always recommend as a way of making that change happen because it is that collective support that people are providing with one another plus the digital is then the tools that you're using in order for you to be more empowered and more enabled I would argue that things like Facebook groups are not that individualistic because you're collaborating with other people you're seeing what other people are saying about an issue that you care about and then you can then re-comment to them so it depends and I think some of the tools like the e-petitions website saying you can see what people near you are signing at the moment I think some of these tools are helping with some of that collaboration I mean I would say though that I'm sure you're right and I'm sure that is what the research shows however digital technology has the enormous power of bringing people together and enabling them to collaborate with other people who have the same views as them and who want to see the same change as them and therefore I would say that we ought to be supporting things like simple things like Facebook groups and also making sure that this blend of face to face and digital happens when you're putting forward those programs Thank you so much