 The next item of business is debate on motion 1507, in the name of Kate Forbes, on supporting entrepreneurship. Can I ask those who wish to speak in the debate? Can I also ask those who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly please? My goodness. I'll say no more. Can I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press the request to speak buttons? I'm Kate Forbes to speak to remove the motion for nine minutes please minister. Thank you, Presiding Officer. This Government and indeed myself personally as the Minister for the Digital Economy has made clear that our ambition and our vision is for this nation of Scotland to be at the very forefront of economic and technological development. That means that we must be the inventors and the producers of future innovations, not just their consumers. We know that Scotland's people have more than enough potential to be world leading in many fields. Indeed, we are all very familiar with the innovators and the entrepreneurs of our past, names like Bell, Fleming and Carnegie. More recently, names like Farmer, Globe and Hunter come to the fore. Like Sir Tom Hunter, this Government agrees that we must ensure that we work together to make sure that our best days are still ahead of us. The enterprise plays a very positive role for all of society. That, of course, is no mean feat, but there is another generation coming through with the ideas, the initiatives and the guts to give it a go. I absolutely believe that we can accomplish that vision if we work together. It's no wonder then that our approach is based on working with partners to nurture our existing entrepreneurial talent and create the conditions that attract international talent. On that note, I find it quite startling that the Conservative motion talks about attractiveness when their party has been lambasted in recent weeks and years for single-handedly not just turning people off coming to this country but actively restricting them from entering. Scotland can do embodies our strategy, because in sharp contrast to that small-minded, self-obsessed approach, which, in the words of some business organisations, is misleading rhetoric on immigration, this Government is actively supporting home talent as well as attracting people to move to this country. Our approach through Scotland can do is a platform that we have developed with our public, our private and our third sector partners, which represents our shared ambition to become world-leading in entrepreneurship and innovation. It is paying off, make no mistake, since the introduction of CanDo in 2013, the effectiveness of Scotland's business support environment has risen from 13th in the world to 5th ahead of all other parts of the UK, but I do not think that that is enough. I think that we need to go further. That collaboration, which champions an approach where sustainable growth and innovation go hand-in-hand with the wider benefits to all society, is just the foundation that we must continue to build on. Indeed. Daniel Johnson. I thank the minister for giving way, and I think that in many ways she is absolutely right, but I wonder how her remarks that she just made square with the fact that funding for Scottish enterprises has declined by over a quarter since her party came to power. Kate Forbes. I thank the member for that question. We make clear in our draft budget this year that support for businesses at the very heart of that, and our support for our enterprise agencies, which includes, of course, Highlands and Islands Enterprise as well as Scottish Enterprise, have been treated fairly and consistently. At the heart is actually the output, the benefit that there is to the business community. The stats that I just quoted in terms of the environment that is here, the support environment has risen. Those are not my stats, has risen from 13th in the world to fifth ahead of all other parts of the UK, is really where we must look to the support that businesses are telling us that they need, and to make sure that that support is not piecemeal, but it's this type of support that business wants. Where our focus has been applied, where we have prioritised, such as tackling the gender gap or ensuring that our young people see enterprise activity as the norm, the results have been positive. Where I do think that Labour's amendment highlights a very important point is recognising the importance of women in enterprise, to ensure that that growth that I've talked about is indeed inclusive. And whilst the proportion of women who are actively starting a business has risen significantly since the women in enterprise action framework was established, there is clearly more to do to make sure that we leave nobody behind. Those are achievements, yes. Oh, sorry, Elaine Smith. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I do recognise what the minister has been saying, but I think that we also have to recognise that the statistics show that less than one quarter of new businesses in Scotland are being established by women. I think that we should just make that point at this stage. Kate Forbes. I appreciate that point and I don't disagree with it. And the point that I think would make is that the value, if we were to encourage more women to be able to be in a position to start a business, it would be enormous for the Scottish economy. And making sure that inclusivity is at the heart of our entrepreneurship agenda is not just good for the entrepreneurs themselves, but indeed for the Scottish economy as a whole. We recognise that values and diversity must lie at the heart of our can-do philosophy. Organisations like the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, have made enormous contributions to those shared outcomes. Young Enterprise Scotland and the Princess Trust have driven action. And as I already mentioned, Women's Enterprise Scotland and Investing Women are tackling some of the challenges that lie around the statistics that Elaine Smith highlighted. And there are in fact so many partners responsible for driving that impact that to name them all and their contributions would see us with very little time to debate. One partner however who does recognise specific recognition is Entrepreneurial Scotland, which is a network of and for Scotland's entrepreneurs. And it's at the very heart of what we're trying to achieve. At the weekend I met Rachel Wallace, who works for Entrepreneurial Scotland, to ask her, aside from any briefings that I might get, what impact she sees Entrepreneurial Scotland having on the businesses that she is trying to support. And that entrepreneurial drive, which I could see in her herself, was very clear that being able to come alongside business and support them in the way that they ask for, rather than the way that the Government wants to provide is really making a difference. I briefly touched on values, and values have got to be at the heart of our approach. We have stated time and time again that our commitment to economic growth must be inclusive and businesses that do good are much more likely to be successful and resilient. From the social enterprise strategy to the Scottish business pledge, and our commitment to being a fair work nation, we have made clear our own position. Dean Lockhart. As I mentioned in Closive Growth, at the economy committee, we heard that the Government has no agreed definition of inclusive growth. When will the Government be able to tell the various agencies involved in the economy what it means by inclusive growth? Kate Forbes. I thank the member for that question. I saw one point in my colleague asking Dean Lockhart which strategy he thought that the Scottish Government could leave behind in citing inclusive growth being one of them, which of course we would never do. In terms of inclusive growth, it is quite clear that we ensure that anybody who wants to access the workforce and who wants to access work and who wants to be an entrepreneur is able to do so, that there is a level playing field. At the other hand, in terms of outcomes, that the outcomes from that growth that we see in the economy benefits everybody, and we do not see the continuing gap between rich and poor that some of Dean Lockhart's colleagues in the Westminster Government seem intent on driving bigger. That means growth for more than its own sake. It means growth where positive social, environmental and community outcomes are a natural consideration. They are not an afterthought or a convenient side effect or a nice subject for a debate in the Parliament. It is growth where everybody is empowered to participate and from which everybody can benefit. That sentence in itself is quite a neat definition. The minister is on her last minute. She is just winding up. Having far too much fun taking... Thank you, Presiding Officer, in which case I'll rush to the end. We are all aware, and I'm sure we're going to have a very interesting debate, that there are headwinds approaching the Scottish economy that will inevitably impact on the ability of business to thrive just yesterday. The CBI again published some very scary, for one of the better word, figures for the impact on the Scottish economy in the event of a no deal. Those are headwinds caused not by Scotland's businesses but by decisions made elsewhere. That more than ever underlines why we must work together with our partners in business to listen to them and to ensure that our support is right. That is the essence of our approach and that is the reason for its success and I move the motion in my name. The concept of entrepreneurship reaches back to the work of Adam Smith and Scotland rightly has a long and proud history of creating new industries. Entrepreneurs in Scotland today continue to play a vital role in our economy and their success must be recognised. They build new businesses and create new jobs providing a boost to the local and national economy. They add to national income by generating new wealth and increased tax receipts and they generate multiplier effects for the economy by creating new products and services. While we all recognise that entrepreneurship is a vital part of the economy, the reality is that no Government can legislate for it. You cannot regulate entrepreneurship into existence. Instead, the role of government should be to create a dynamic skills, business and financial environment in which it can flourish. The importance of creating this dynamic environment was highlighted in a recent study by Grant Thornton, which identified that £4.3 billion of business growth is being lost to Scotland because of what they called an environment of barriers, including access to skills, technology, innovation and financial issues. I will, in a second, say perhaps why business creation rates in Scotland continue to lag behind the rest of the UK that John Mason wants to explain. John Mason. I thank the member for giving way. He mentioned the lack of skills. Is he not concerned that Brexit could lead to a greater lack of skills? The UK Government has announced a new immigration policy that is precisely designed to align our immigration policy with the skills and needs of the economy. No, I don't. The Scottish Government motion today sets out various initiatives supporting entrepreneurship and we welcome those initiatives but a patchwork list of initiatives is not enough to create the right environment for enterprise. The Government motion also refers to the new economic action plan but this action plan is merely what the Fraser Valander has described as a long list of Government initiatives recording how money is spent. We need to do more to realise Scotland's entrepreneurial potential and that's why our amendment today calls for the Scottish Government to take a more fundamental approach to create a dynamic skills business and financial environment that truly supports entrepreneurship. Tom Arthur. I'm very grateful to Mr Lockhart for giving way and I completely agree with him that skills is a key issue. One of the key drivers of skills is the fantastic university sector. I'm sure Mr Lockhart will welcome as much as I do the figures that were released last week showing 15.6 per cent of university students are from the 20 per cent most deprived areas and that the commissioner for fair access and hero today, Sir Peter Scott, said that the SNP policy of free tuition was vindicated. Mr Arthur, I think that that's a long enough intervention. Does Mr Lockhart support the policy of free tuition? Mr Arthur, we are short of time for this debate. I've stated that already. Thank you very much. Let me address the question. In terms of the skills environment, there is a skill shortage in Scotland that has doubled since 2011. Over the past 10 years, college student numbers have been cut by 150,000 and the CBI has called on the Government to do more to fill teacher vacancies in vital subjects such as maths and science. What we're also seeing, and I'd mention this to the minister, as minister for digital, we're seeing an increasing digital skills gap emerging in Scotland. The economy committee has earned evidence that only 9 per cent of business in Scotland use digital in their business compared to 43 per cent in other countries. That means that a number of new businesses in digital and technology won't be able to get off the ground unless this digital gap is addressed. That's why we've been calling for the establishment of a dedicated institute of e-commerce, a specialist agency that would help emerging enterprises to take full advantage of the global opportunities in e-commerce. I'm very briefly, please. Remember talked about the need for skills. I wonder if you could respond to the FSP who said that the UK Government's obstinate approach to immigration is going to ensure that non-UK labour and skills will not be there for small businesses to grow and sustain their operations. I've already said that the UK Government has announced a new immigration policy designed to fill the skills gap. In terms of the business environment, we need to promote Scotland as a home for innovators. Entrepreneurs create jobs, their business developers and they support economic growth. Not only that, they tend to be top-rate taxpayers to Government's tax revenues. Not surprisingly, we face competition from around the world for those innovators and from the rest of the UK. Instead of trying to attract those innovators to Scotland, the SNP is doing exactly the opposite by making Scotland the highest tax part of the UK for entrepreneurs. I've given way enough. We also need a business environment that encourages entrepreneurs to scale up and expand their business base. Again, we have a Government that does that by inflicting the large business supplement on successful firms with the ambition to expand. Let me turn to enterprise policy. Scotland has a vibrant start-up scene with many entrepreneurs looking to commercialise new ideas and innovations. Again, we see an enterprise policy from the SNP failing to provide the right level of support for start-ups across Scotland. The economy committee is currently concluding an inquiry into business support, including business gateway, the primary provider of enterprise support for start-ups. The committee has heard evidence, however, that because of a lack of funding and a lack of resource, business support for start-ups across Scotland is inconsistent and lacks expertise. We've also heard evidence that the number of start-ups receiving assistance has dropped to an eight-year low. If we're serious about supporting start-ups, we must have a fundamentally I'm sorry, I'm about to conclude. If we're serious about supporting start-ups, we must have a fundamentally improved system of start-up support. When the committee presents its final report to Parliament, I urge the minister to take actions on its recommendations. After 11 years of SNP government, we have a low growth, low wage, low productivity and low innovation economy, with levels of innovation in Scotland now in the third quartile of OECD countries. I would remind the minister that all of those policy areas have been within the control of the SNP for 11 years. If Scotland's true entrepreneurial potential is to be realised, we need to see this SNP government change direction in economic policy and create an environment in which innovation and enterprise can flourish. I move the amendment in my name. I call Rhoda Grant to speak to and move amendment 15507.2. Five minutes please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Scotland has a long history in entrepreneurship. Unfortunately, most of it is historic. We need to lay the foundation that again encourages our entrepreneurial spirit. While there is little to disagree with in the Government motion, statements of intent do not really build the foundations that we need to thrive. I attended the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Women's Conference a couple of years ago and they looked at women in business. A number of women addressed the conference and talked about their own experience, and for the most part they had gone into business because circumstances forced them to. It was the difficulty of finding work that fitted into caring responsibilities that drove them to set up their own businesses. It was not a career choice or a burning ambition. It was what they needed to do to survive. Women's Enterprise Scotland published a report highlighting the barriers faced by women entrepreneurs. Their recommendations pointed to the inbuilt inequality in the way in which support is provided, meaning women are therefore underrepresented in the sector. That is detrimental to women and to our economy as a whole. Some of the issues that they raise are amplified by others such as the Federation of Small Businesses as being true throughout the sector. The fragmentation of support, the missing middle, the transition between business gateway and the enterprise sector. I have also had constituents who found themselves being passed back and forth between different organisations because the help available by one is quite different to the other and many businesses fall between all of them. Businesses need seamless support. When companies are trading successfully they then become vulnerable to takeover from larger organisations that can then grow that business. There is a risk factor for companies looking to take the next step to grow and export. Therefore, they need support at that point. The loss of ownership of these companies damages our economy. They often become part of larger multinationals so we lose much of the wealth that they create in taxes as well as income. Therefore, if we are to maximise the benefits of entrepreneurship and grow and nurture these companies, it seems to me that the system does not do that seamlessly. In addition, the support available is not always suitable. Enterprise companies tend to focus on account managed companies which fit a narrow definition while other potentially successful businesses get little or no support. We need to be more open to different business models. When the support for these can be fragmented, co-ops and social enterprise spread risk while providing employment and economic benefit. However, their economic impact is sometimes overlooked and therefore they do not get the support required. I am short of time. I am short of time. I am short of time. I am short of time. I am short of time. This has passed a growth and the harassed women's businesses tend to be more about sustainable long-term growth. Rhoda Grant? Yes, I agree with that. However, there are gaps in the support provided and that is most likely to be 범 fellt by women. I was speaking about co-ops and social enterprises where they are overlooked as well. Expert organisations that help co-ops crisis, but they need mainstream support as well to understand and encourage this form of entrepreneurship and to support them and signpost them to that more expert organisations where necessary. The same is true of sole traders in many rural areas. There is not the opportunity to grow a business because it is filling a niche locally. However, those businesses are crucial and an economic driver in those rural communities. If they fail, there is a detrimental impact to the wider economy, but they are often overlooked because of their inability to grow. As my colleague Daniel Johnston said, the falling enterprise company budgets are difficult to see how the Scottish Government is supporting entrepreneurship. The Conservative amendment talks about the Scottish economy growth underperforming against the rest of the United Kingdom, and we agree with that. However, we do not agree that fairer taxation discourages entrepreneurs. Indeed, we believe the very opposite. Austerity damages our economy and with it business opportunities for entrepreneurs. Austerity holds our economy back, and those who bear the brunt of that are the least well-off in our society. Therefore, we cannot support the Conservative amendment. You must close, please, Mr Grant. However, Austerity handed down from the UK Government cannot explain the difference between the Scottish economy and the rest of the United Kingdom. Yes, there is uncertainty. It must close, please, Mr Grant. However, that is shared throughout the UK. Indeed, ref 2 proves to give more uncertainty to Scotland. I know the amendment. I know the amendment in my name. Can I say to everyone that we are really pushed for time today, and it is largely because of people going over their time, and it is unfair to their colleagues. Willie Rennie, four minutes. Thank you for setting me up so nicely, Deputy Presiding Officer. I will aim to keep within the four minutes. I recognise the success of Scotland's entrepreneurial businesses and the contribution that they make to employing people across Scotland. The chamber needs no further than the East Newk of Fife and the village of Pettinwim in my constituency. That, according to the Federation of Small Businesses, is the fourth most enterprising town, with no less than 14.7 per cent of its workers self-employed and astounding 128 per cent above the national average. I was fortunate to spend 16 hours on the right shift with one of those very businesses, the prawn boat, the Cinella. I cannot say that it was particularly easy. I did not sit down for the whole 16 hours, but it was an example of the dedication that small businesses and business people make towards the contribution towards our economy. Small businesses are responsible for seven out of 10 private sector jobs in rural areas, taking account of more than 40,000 jobs in Fife alone, and almost double that in both of Scotland's biggest cities. Kate Forbes, is it welcome in particular that two of the most entrepreneurial villages in Scotland are in the Highlands? I think that we will find that two of the most entrepreneurial hamlets are in north-east Fife. I am sure that if we look at the statistics very closely, we will find that it is very true. My father was a small businessman himself in the grocery business. I saw firsthand the dedication, the hours, the heartache that comes with running a business, employing people and meeting the expectations of customers who were always right. I want to draw the minister's attention to the concerns that are raised by the Federation of Small Businesses surrounding the drop in both registered and unregistered businesses between 2017 and 2018. The FSB has pointed out that it says that a decline in the number of Scotland's businesses spells trouble for our ambitions, for our economy and our local communities, and that we need to create a stronger start-up culture. It is important that we take action to promote that culture, as the threat of an undesirable no-deal Brexit looms over our economy. According to the Scottish Government's website, almost a third of SMEs believed that it would be detrimental to them. I looked closely at the Conservative amendment today and, bizarrely, there was no mention of Brexit in its amendment, but I am sure that that was an oversight. Women's Enterprise Scotland is right to highlight the barriers that are in place for women as well. We need to redouble our efforts to make that happen. The Scottish Government's economic plan has committed to delivering apprenticeships, as it should. I want the minister to go a step further. When asked if they know someone who has started a business in the last two years, the amount of Scottish people who answered yes was way below the UK average. When asked if there are good start-up opportunities where they live within the next six months, the amount of Scottish people who answered yes was way below the UK average, possessing the skills and knowledge to start up a business way below the UK average. We have to do much better than that, because, as we have seen from the statistics, SMEs are at the heart of our growth and our economy. I am just in my last minute. I am very sorry. So what we need to do is to improve enterprise education in schools. That is the way to create that new culture, to encourage more young people to get into business, so I urge the minister to look at enterprise education in schools once again. Thank you, Mr Rennie. When I move to open debate, absolutely no more than four-minute speeches please. Stewart Stevenson, followed by Alison Harris. Let me start by encouraging Dean Lockhart to walk a couple of hundred metres up the canning gate, cross the road, go into the canning gate, and in the north-west corner, he will find Adam Smith's grave. I suggest that he reads what it says on it, but I will just leave that for him for another day. One of the things in the Tory amendment is about business startups. I had a quick look at one aspect of that by looking at the company's house figures. Lo and behold, the quarterly figures, because the figures are published quarterly, show that the increase in registered companies in Scotland is going at about 4.06 per cent per quarter. Guess what the figure is in England Wales? 4.06 per cent per quarter. That is very similar. I accept that the base is smaller in Scotland. I really am not going to have time to do forgive me. I accept that the base is smaller, and there are all sorts of reasons that I cannot in the time available develop here. I want to say a little bit about taxation, because again the Conservatives are focusing on that. The key thing that helps start businesses is that when you start, you have a tax-friendly regime. The small business bonus is hardly a disincentive to small businesses, and it is not replicated anywhere else in these islands. I think that this Government has done absolutely extraordinarily well. Of course, by taking away student tuition fees, we are making sure that the next generation is equipped to do the sort of things that we need to do. I am not going too sorry, just for time. I am halfway through already, so do forgive me. I am sure that it will be worth listening to, but I just do not have time. We are supporting entrepreneurs, and we are supporting innovation, because the two are bedfellows. This debate focuses on entrepreneurship. I think that one of the things that we have to be conscious of is that, when we support start-ups and new businesses and new ideas, not everyone that we support will ultimately be successful. One of the things that I want to know, which I found rather difficult to find, is what the failure rates are. If they are too low, we are being too unambitious in the way that we support companies. In banking, which I worked as a technologist in, if a bank branch had no bad debt, the manager was instantly taken out of position because he was not being ambitious enough in his landing. If he had too much bad debt, he was also taken out and undrawn and quartered, so there is a balance to reach. However, we recognise that there is risk associated with entrepreneurship. There are some outstanding examples. I choose Gillian Martin and my constituency experience as one. In Friswyth, 10 years ago, two lads started Broodog, two people. Under the age of 30, today they have had to move to get a bigger site in Gillian Martin's constituency in Ellen. That company is worth over £1 billion. I very much welcome the fact that they are going to be supporting the Bids initiative in Peterhead by bringing a Broodog bar to Peterhead's main streets. That is absolutely terrific. In my very few seconds that I have left, we need to think about how we support entrepreneurs inside big companies. The best initiative that we had at the Bank of Scotland was when Bruce Patullo in the early 1980s said that our objective was to double the size of the bank in 10 years. If that was the single objective, everybody in the organisation knew it. We did it in seven. Keep it simple, it works. Alison Harris, followed by John Mason. I am grateful for the chance to debate the topic of supporting Scotland's entrepreneurs. I would like to start by declaring a registered interest in this topic, having started an accountancy practice over 20 years ago. Before looking at how we support entrepreneurs, I think that it is important to have a clear understanding of what we mean when we talk about entrepreneurs. When you hear the word entrepreneur, it is easy to think about the huge success stories Andrew Carnegie, Sir Arnold Clark or Michelle Moan to list a few. The term really relates to any individual who sets up an enterprise or business because they assume the risks and hopefully the rewards that come with this. Entrepreneurs can take many forms, sole traders, partnerships and small limited companies. Our local butchers, hairdressers, plumbers, mechanics, restaurants and nursery owners are all entrepreneurs. It is a very different environment to being an employee, as I know only too well. You have the excitement of the potential growth of your business, combined with the extra hours at working at night and all the responsibility falls on your head. Being in business is not always easy, although anyone who is in business already knows that. There are so many uncontrollable factors that can get in the way of success. Taking that into consideration, the best way of supporting entrepreneurs is creating a business-friendly environment. Those are the factors that we can control. I think that it is also important to have a positive attitude to people in business, where success is truly celebrated and encouraged. The public face that people see of an entrepreneur often hides the blood, sweat and tears involved behind the scenes. For entrepreneurs, the associated balance between the risks and rewards of this hard work needs to be perceived as worthwhile. In my region of Central Scotland, in Falkirk, it has always stood out as a hub of independent traders and small business owners. The area has been synonymous with those entrepreneurs for decades. However, recently, some significant cracks have started to show. In the recent business in Scotland 2018 publication, it was revealed that the number of businesses in Falkirk fell between 2017 and 2018. The fall was largely driven by a reduction in the number of sole traders and small businesses. We have long argued on those benches that the SNP sends the wrong message to businesses and indeed workers in Scotland. For example, many small businesses see no point in scaling up here in Scotland because they will be charged twice the level of large business supplement as they would in England. Last year, the SNP introduced significant income tax changes. It has made Scotland the highest tax part of the UK for anyone earning over £26,000. The SNP sends the wrong message to people. It tells them, work harder and you will keep less of your money. It does influence business decisions with the entrepreneur deciding whether it is worth putting in the extra hours and their employees deciding whether to push for a promotion or not. There are clear knock-on effects. It hurts Scotland's already low productivity growth rate. Between 2010 and 2017, productivity in Scotland went down. We need to be incentivising entrepreneurs to set up businesses. It needs to be as easy as possible for them to scale up those businesses. We need employees to be encouraged to work hard and aspire for those promotions. Creating an environment where we accomplish the simple key principles is the best way for us to support entrepreneurs. John Mason, followed by Elaine Smith. On the economy committee, we have carried out a range of inquiries that touch on the subject of entrepreneurship. I will mention some of those as we go along. One inquiry, as has already been mentioned today, has been into business support, which we have just concluded. That has had a particular focus on business gateway. Obviously, we cannot go into the detail of our conclusions until they are published, but most of the evidence that we have taken has been in the public record. It would be fair to say that the picture across Scotland is a bit patchy in business gateway. Some entrepreneurs have been very positive about the support and advice that they have received from them, while others have been more connected to Scottish Enterprise or HIE, and others have got their business going with little public support. One of the things that has struck me has been the tendency for the children of entrepreneurs to become entrepreneurs themselves. That is absolutely fine, but it leaves us with the challenge of how we can encourage more young people whose parents were employed by public or private sector organisations to think about setting up their own enterprise. The Scotland Can Do website says, "...an entrepreneurial mindset can be learned and a culture that supports it created." I agree with that. The statement is that the entrepreneurial mindset can be learned. However, I do not think that it is necessarily easily learned and will depend partly on the mindset that someone has to start with. Personally, my father was an engineer and my mother was a teacher. I do not think that I ever seriously considered starting a business of my own. I assumed that I would work for some organisation as they had, and that is broadly what I did in my career as an accountant. The first challenge is to get more businesses started, but the second challenge is to get our entrepreneurs to grow them and not to have them sold off too soon before they have fulfilled their potential. That is sometimes called the fear of heights, if it is very quick. Just effective broadband is clearly crucial to entrepreneurship, whether it is starting up or scaling up. Does the member have any idea when we will see full coverage of broadband in the north-east, where I am? John Mason. I think that that is important, but I think that it is a little bit off the subject of today's debate. When, as a company like Skyscanner, it grew to a considerable size while it was independent and was sold off for more serious money when the time came, other companies have been sold off, as Rhoda Grant said, at a much earlier stage. The feeling is that the Scottish economy as a whole has not benefited as much as it might have. Once again today, I find myself strongly disagreeing with the Conservative amendment. Here we have a party that keeps the major levers of the economy reserved to Westminster and is quick to claim the credit if they reckon that their actions have contributed to economic growth. Yet London has been running the Scottish economy for over 300 years, whereas the Scottish Parliament has only had some involvement for the last 20 years. Perhaps, just perhaps, the reason why the Scottish economy has not done so well at times and risks continuing not to do so well in the future is that London is running the show. As an example, Scottish unemployment is at a welcome low level, but the other side to that is that we do not have a lot of extra people available for any new jobs that might come along in the future, and there could well be a skills shortage fairly soon. With Brexit and the potential for Westminster stopping workers coming to Scotland, of course our economy would be likely to suffer in that regard. Surely the Conservatives would accept that if the Scottish economy suffers more because we need immigration and they put on immigration controls, then it is the Westminster Government that is responsible for the Scottish economy doing less well. I have slightly less problem with the Labour amendment, but they seem to want more expenditure and they do not tell us where the money is coming from. Thank you very much. Elaine Smith will be followed by Gordon MacDonald. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I have a voluntary registered interest as a non-remunirated director of McQuick Limited Bagpipe Covers. Entrepreneurs come in all shapes and sizes and from all walks of life they might be big business tycoons, some of which we mentioned in the opening speech, inventors, or someone turning a hobby or a skill into an idea for a small business venture. Unfortunately, though, what they most predominantly are is male. Therefore, I intend to focus on the issue today of women as entrepreneurs. In the Scottish Government's economy action plan, as part of the driving entrepreneurship paper, it is made clear that collective efforts must be broadened to address the needs of women in enterprise and the creative sector. We are all well aware that new businesses are a key driver of economic growth and, as such, it is vitally important that people get the help and support that they need to ensure success. Small business startups are not only good for our economy but also for helping individuals into employment, both the business owner and those that they might employ. The minister mentioned in the opening speech about the widening poverty gap. Of course, it used to be that employment was a guaranteed way out of poverty, but, clearly, that is no longer the case. With one in four Scottish children living in poverty and two thirds living in households where at least one person works, we can see that a job is not always the way out of poverty. In terms of poverty, it is women who are amongst the poorest in our society. Therefore, supporting more women into business and breaking down the barriers is particularly important. The Scottish Government's action plan for women in enterprise seeks to address a number of the challenges to women in business, but it is needed because women are still underrepresented in self-employment and in business ownership. I noted that £400,000 was specifically earmarked for this financial year to help initiatives that are focused on women such as the ambassadors programme. I would be grateful for a comment from the minister in summing up, because clearly we do not have time for interventions, unfortunately, on whether some funding can be specifically focused on tackling the lack of startups in areas of higher deprivation, women suffering health inequalities and among those living in poverty and exclusion in general. Part of that could include specific funding for projects working with women with complex health needs for whom the mainstream labour market does not always fit. Personal control and flexibility are important in such cases, so I would be grateful for a comment on that. Women working in agriculture is also a specific area that needs more attention. At a recent women's dinner in the Scottish Parliament, hosted by myself and other women MSPs, Sarah Allison, vice-chair of the NFU next generation group, spoke passionately about the opportunities for women in the farming and agricultural sector and the role that we can all play in supporting them. The Scottish Government's Women in Agriculture Task Force has been working on that issue, Presiding Officer, and has just published an interim report. The recommendations for training in that include short courses designed for women new to farming, practical as well as financial and management training courses that are targeted at women and courses that are targeted at women to take into account their needs, including childcare. I believe that that approach is already showing positive results, challenging the stereotypes of agriculture and farming as an all-male preserve. Finally, I would like to highlight the importance of harnessing women's existing skills and taking them seriously as a business proposition. One of the challenges in ensuring that women's business ideas—for example, jewellery making or beautician, etc.—are not dismissed as hobbies and that they receive the support and the respect that they deserve. Sometimes, relatively small amounts of funding can be enough to start up such a business, but getting that funding can be extremely difficult for many women. I support the Government motion, but I support the Labour amendment and I certainly do not support the Tory amendment. I call Gordon MacDonald to be followed by Tom Mason. The Scottish Chambers of Commerce and Evidence to the Economy and Fair Work Committee stated that Scotland has an enviable level of support for developing businesses delivered through local authorities, primarily via business gateway, enterprise agencies and private sector organisations such as the Chambers of Commerce. Scotland is the fifth most effective environment for business support globally, up from 2013. That finding was supported by research carried out by the Hunter Centre for Entrepreneurship at Strathclyde University, identifying that Scotland's profile improved both absolutely and relative to benchmark nations. If it were a nation state, it would rank fifth, when it included with the 28 innovation-driven nations on the Global Entrepreneurship Development Institute Index for the 2012 to 2015 period, comfortably within the upper quartile and behind only the United States, Australia, Denmark and Sweden. The most recent official figures for the number of registered businesses in Scotland record a 16 per cent growth since 2007, with over 28,000 new businesses, including sole traders and partnerships that grew from 54,000 to just under 69,000. In order to support new entrepreneurs in existing businesses to grow, there is a range of support from business incubators to innovation centres, in addition to the enterprise agencies and business gateway. Some might see that as cluttered, but the outcome is that Scotland's business survival rates are above the UK average. Scotland is ranked first out of the UK's 12 regions for two-year and three-year survival rates. When it comes to the five-year survival rate for businesses born in 2012 and still active in 2017, Scotland's rate was 44 per cent, again above the UK average. We do not often hear about business death rates, but again Scotland is performing better with a business death rate of 11 per cent lower than the UK average, with London in the region with the highest business death rate, with over 86,000 businesses failing in 2017. In Edinburgh, the business support landscape has supported the city in becoming one of the economic hotspots of the UK. Codebase is the UK's largest startup incubator, home to more than 100 of the country's best technology companies, bringing together entrepreneurs, world-class technological talent and top investors. In my constituency of Edinburgh Pentlands, the Edinburgh business school located at Herriot-Watt University's Richardon campus has a startup incubator, where successful applicants are offered free space and fully equipped offices for one year. In addition to the desk-based, the budding entrepreneurs have access to workshops, training and expert advice. In terms of business accelerators, Edinburgh has Scotland's first specialist ffintech hub at the RBSHQ at Gogavern, where innovative ffintech entrepreneurs have access to similar expertise. Start-up finance is critical in ensuring that new businesses get to the point where they can start trading. The Scottish Government is investing in the Scottish edge fund competition, which has had 12 rounds so far, investing in 350 businesses with £130 million of additional turnover and 1,600 jobs. I also welcome the proposal to reopen the Scottish stock exchange here in Edinburgh, creating 60 highly skilled jobs. In just the last year, the number of employers based in Scotland has increased by 900. If we can become the best place in the world to do business, the many more new and existing small businesses will grow to become employers, making our economy stronger. Scotland's current economic performance can only be described as mediocre. Growth forecast is lower than the UK as a whole for the next four years, and GBT is growing half as quickly. Productivity is at its lowest level in nearly nine years, a far cry from the Scottish Government's goal of being in the top quarter of OECD countries. Target set, target missed. We need to do considerably better. It follows that we must find ways of improving performance and productivity wherever we can. Slicker ways of working, less cluttered regulation and bureaucracy, and a much more enterprising nation, with new ways of working, new markets, products and innovation than all that we do. Innovation comes about by experiment and risk taking, and we look to entrepreneurial activity to achieve the success that we need, to progress the economy at a much faster rate than we do at present. However, best examples of entrepreneurs are when individuals are able to take calculated risks that take advantage of market conditions, knowledge and experience. Therefore, innovative processes should take place both on a large scale in terms of business startups and on a small scale in every department in the organisations across Scotland. I once asked the chief executive of a leading venture capital company who is best to invest in, and he replied, the person who really knows their market and has failed at least once, better twice. We need the element of calculated risk to push the boundaries of what we can achieve. I remind you of the words of George Bernard Shaw, who in 1903 said, the reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on unreasonable man, and I apologise to females on that quote. We need to find ways of encouraging such risk taking, and if they fail, the consequences should not be too burdensome, but that in mind investment in business support is vital. Can the member confirm whether he is voting for a Labour's motion that asks for more money, as well as his own motion asking for a tax cut? No, I am wanting for an environment where business enterprise and entrepreneurs can flourish. Money is not necessarily the vital part of it. We need to fix the fact-lining R&D spending, as we are the worst in the OACD countries bar in New Zealand. We need to sort out our unacceptable skills gap, which has doubled since 2011. We need to ensure that local communities have the powers and the need to be reactive, flexible and in order to deal with the unique challenges that they face. We need to properly help the high street and take account of e-commerce. In order to compensate for risk, we must reward success where it occurs, encouraging investment and, importantly, profitability. Sadly, Presiding Officer, this is not the approach that is taken by the SNP. A business supplement that is doubled out of the rest of the UK puts Scottish Business Centre's competitive disadvantages—not my words, those of the Scottish Chamber of Commerce. Where is the incentive when Scottish businesses are paying an extra 190 million in taxes every year? This Government must incentivise innovation, not treat it like a cash cow. We have so much potential as a nation, Presiding Officer. However, we cannot realise it until such time as the right support is available from the Scottish Government. The current approach is not working as it should. If everything was fine, we would not have the fewer businesses across the country than last year and all productivity at the lowest level since 2010. I urge the Government to think carefully about what has been said here today, work and strategy towards developing policies that are much better working and allowing innovation and entrepreneurship to flourish. Presiding Officer, once again I get the opportunity to highlight a significant number that I often mention when talking about Scotland's enterprise potential. That number is £7.6 billion. That is how many pounds we go into the Scottish economy if the same amount of women as men started up in business every year. The Labour amendment makes specific reference to the work done by Women's Enterprise Scotland. I would like to take that opportunity to recommend that Rhoda Grant and Elaine Smith come along to my cross-party group of Women's Enterprise for which Wes is the secretary. We have done some great work over the past three years, including securing funding for Wes and the enterprise training for women. Elaine Smith, I will try to get along, but I did read some of the minutes, and it is very interesting. You would be most welcome, as would everybody else. Many of the women that we have heard from in our cross-party group have been innovators, particularly in tech. We have also had sessions on women in agriculture, heard from women in areas of multiple deprivation starting up in business, and we have done a lot of work on access to finance and business support, usually concentrating on the lack of both for women and the unsuitability of current enterprise structures, which can be missing out on women's potential due to unconscious bias. In Wes research, we have found out that women-led businesses view growth as a sustainable long-term process rather than a fast, high trajectory. If you fit in the middle between small business and very large business, you can also be subject to not being able to apply for quite a lot of support. The focus on a broader community measure such as employment, fair working practices, quality of service and product, rather than just turn over, and more than three quarters of respondents to a recent Wes survey stated that services should be more aware of the differences in support needs between women and men in business, with appropriate peer support being listed as particularly desirable. That brings me on to this week, the deadline for applications for business ambassadors for women's enterprise Scotland. I am hopeful that one of my constituents, Lindsay Ritchie, will apply for that. Lindsay embodies the can-do spirit that is mentioned in the Government motion. A small unit in the village of Newmacker, her business kelp we hay ships international traditional highland dress and gift items all over the world. She employs seven local people and a work experience student, and that is seven people not having to commute into the city for work. Small businesses and small towns and villages providing local opportunities that are good for high streets, that are good for the environment and that are good for working parents. I also want to point out that Lindsay and so many other small businesses in my area are able to have premises with a shock front because of the small business bonus, thanks to the increase in the ceiling. The majority of high street businesses in my constituency now qualify for this vital support. Before I close, I want to mention low-carbon innovation. For me, it has been very interesting leaving the economy committee as a member and moving on to convene the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee. Through our deliberations on the Government's climate change bill, it has been glaringly obvious to me that our business and innovation support agencies would do well to have a focus on the potential of shepherding businesses who can be part of the low-carbon revolution, whether that be in the tech for renewable energy, bioscience that improves soil conditions, plant health and feed for livestock, or innovative agribusiness. There is a wealth of knowledge and innovative thinking in our environment and agriculture sector in Scotland that could be nurtured and could be exported to lead the way in the world as we face up to our climate change responsibilities. It really is ours for the taking if we have that focus. Untap to enterprise potential, that is the key to economic growth in Scotland, but it is also the key to so many of this Government's priorities, equality of opportunity, environmental sustainability, fair work, innovation and internationalisation. Thank you very much. We move now to closing speeches. Daniel Johnson to be followed by Jamie Halcro Johnston. Thank you, Presiding Officer. With four minutes, this feels more like I'm taking part in a pitching competition than summing up a debate, but let me give it a go. Obviously, I need to refer members to my register of interests. I am a non-working, non-remunirated director of a retail business and a member of the FSB. I've always struggled a little bit with the term entrepreneur. When you think of entrepreneur, you either think of Mark Zuckerberg or Del Boy, and I never felt like I was either one of those things when I was working in business. What I did feel like I was constantly chasing my tail, trying to keep all the plates spinning, trying to make sure that I was making progress in my business. One of the real points of consensus that has been in the debate is that that is the essence of what an entrepreneur is. It is about hard work, but it is also about making the most of both your talents and the talents of those that you are working in your business. I think that that was a point made very well by Rhoda Grant in her contribution. It is also why it is right that we focus not just on the whizzy, high-tech businesses but also on those people who are working very hard in more day-to-day businesses and looking at how we can support them so that they can make the most of those talents that they are seeking to use. Looking at the debate this afternoon, there is much that we can agree on. Indeed, I think that I would also refer to the debate that we had last week looking at investment, business support and labour time. I think that there were two points of consensus there that we need to see how we can grow our middle-sized companies, and that needs to be done through a combination of investment and support. I think that those are points that we can all agree on. On that point, there was much that we can agree on with the Government's motion. Unless we are really looking at how we can genuinely stimulate that growth, tackle the underlying issues of productivity, there is a danger that the Government's motion is piecemeal. Likewise, I think that there are real issues with the Tory's approach to the debate this afternoon. There was much in Dean Lockhart's contribution that I could agree with. I agree with him that we need to have the right environment for enterprise. I agree with him that there is a danger that there is a patchwork of approaches and organisations. I agree with the need to do better on the digital skill gap. I agree with him that we need to fund business support more effectively. However, how that translates into a motion that simply talks about lowering taxation as the sole instrument, the sole device through which we support our enterprises simply makes no sense to me. I agree that no business person likes paying tax. The reality is that growing businesses are much about infrastructure that we invest in through the public sector. It is about skills that we provide through our education sector. It is about making sure that we can plug those skills gaps, support businesses that need to grow to take new opportunities, which again is about business support. It is about the state and the private sector working in partnership. That requires public sector investment. The last time that I checked the best way of doing that is through taxation. If the Tories have an issue with that, might I gently point it in the direction of the Scandinavian countries or Germany, which have significantly higher levels of taxation but seem to do significantly better than we do in terms of productivity? On a final point, I do not really have time. We must also celebrate the successes that we have here. Gordon MacDonald did a very good job in pointing out some of the successes in this city. We have a turnover from tech businesses of 1.14 billion, 212 start-ups in the last year, 10,000 tech jobs directly and 38,000 in associated efforts. If we look at the why, it is because we have a highly successful university that has acted as a conduit of knowledge exchange and collaboration. Therein, I think, lays a hint as to where future success may lie for future enterprise policy in this country. Jamie Halcro Johnston We have seen a welcome focus from Governments at all levels on the need to back innovation. I welcome some of the comments that the minister has made today. In what has been far too short a debate, we have heard a number of positive contributions from around the chamber. I would like to draw attention to just a few of them. My colleague Dean Lockhart highlighted the increasing digital skills gap emerging in Scotland, something that we will be concerned about. As he mentioned, the economy committee in which we both sit had evidence that only 9 per cent of business in Scotland embed digital in their business. That is compared to 43 per cent in competitor countries. There is a digital skills gap that we have to address as a country. I agree wholeheartedly when Dean Lockhart calls for the establishment of a dedicated institute of e-commerce to help emerging entrepreneurs to take full advantage of global opportunities in e-commerce. Alison Harris was right to point out that, when we think of entrepreneurs too often, we think of the huge success stories, the Andrew Carnegie and Arnold Clarks or, as Daniel Johnson mentioned, the Delboys. Serial and successful entrepreneurs come in all shapes and sizes from the person who sets up and runs a business employing thousands of staff to the person who may employ five or ten people. Their reasons for starting their own business may well be the same. Tom Mason made an important point when he highlighted the fact that many entrepreneurs fail at least once. However, what differentiates them from others is that they get up, dust themselves off and give it another go. Sometimes more than once, they learn from their mistakes and it is their determination that drives them on. Daniel Johnson highlighted the cuts to the budgets of the Scottish Enterprise and Highlands Alliance Enterprise. I have not got time. We have only got a very short debate. Maybe more time should be put in for what is an important subject. He could also have mentioned that Highlands Alliance Enterprise also underspent on its budget for broadband roll-up by over 45 per cent last year. Willie Rennie has seemingly launched the entrepreneurial hamlets of the year awards coming soon to the international conference centre Pittenweem. Get your tickets as soon as you can. Elaine Smith touched on women in agriculture and it is a good opportunity to mention that sisters Kirsty and Amy Budge from a countryfile farming heroes in Shetland. The minister and others also highlighted the importance of addressing the barriers to women entrepreneurs. That is all part of the Labour amendment that we can agree with. Unfortunately, we also feel that the amendment seems to discourage foreign investment into Scotland, which is a wrong message to send, so we will not be supporting the Labour amendment today. Entrepreneurship and encouraging more entrepreneurs is an issue around which we can hopefully build some consensus. There appears to be a recognition across this chamber that there have been shortcomings in our approach in the past and the need to improve in the future. Scotland has suffered too many years of slow growth and failing to effectively upsize business from start-ups to significant-sized organisations. As I have already mentioned, in common with a number of speakers today, I have the advantage of sitting on the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee in recent months during our business support inquiry. We have heard a great deal of evidence about the functioning of both the enterprise agencies and at a local-level business gateway. Those will be key bodies in driving forward a cultural change in supporting—in support of entrepreneurialism. One thing that does seem odd to me, however, is that business gateway, as a local authority-run service, does not seem to be better integrated to the other function of local authorities. If we are to embed an enterprise earlier in the consciousness of young people, surely organisations like business gateway can make more of a contribution through their respective councils. More widely, there has been a very positive focus on collaboration today, and that is welcome. However, if we wish to see entrepreneurship have equal status in terms of careers that we signpost to young people, we must give it parity of esteem. That will involve incorporating entrepreneurship at all levels. There are clearly unharnist opportunities to build entrepreneurial skills as part of apprenticeships. I certainly know of one form of plumbing apprentice who has all the skills to be a plumber, and having set up his own business is now having to learn how to run that business with all the additional skills that it requires. He felt that even the most basic business training as part of his entrepreneurship would have been extremely helpful when he started to setting up on his own. While I was slightly disappointed when speaking to a group of about 12 MSYPs in Parliament last year, only one showed interest in starting up their own company, I appreciate that this is not necessarily reflective of the aspirations of young people. I can also highlight the case of Australia in Orkney, who is a young enterprise team in Kirkwall grammar schools 2017-18. They have gone on to be crowned the Scottish company of the year. We must ensure that every young person who grows up in Scotland receives a rounded enterprise education, not only opening up new horizons but providing them with the practical skills that are required to run a small business. Presiding officers, this side of the chamber will welcome any new work from the Scottish Government to support entrepreneurs and break down some of the barriers that exist to starting up new businesses. Sadly, however, there are many policies of the SNP Government that are holding Scottish business back. So long as the SNP continues to be an administration that values tax rises above creating an environment for the private sector to succeed, our economic growth will suffer. So, too, will our productivity, which this Government pledged in its 2016 manifesto, to tackle? Instead, the gap with the rest of the UK is at its widest level since 2012. Instead, we can and should be ambitious about our entrepreneurs and clear about the ways in which we can allow a truly entrepreneurial spirit to flourish in Scotland. I thank all members for their contribution to today's debate. Above all else, I hope that entrepreneurs the length and breadth of this country feel that we have paid tribute to their efforts, whether they are in the hamlets of Fife or the villages of the Highlands or the streets of Edinburgh. They are the ones that have the success and who get up and go and who bear a lot of the risks of what we do. Many, perhaps, of the issues that we have discussed today deserve time for greater reflection than we have been able to manage today. It is clear, quite rightly, that supporting all of Scotland's people to realise their potential, no matter where they choose to realise it, is a priority that we all share and that endeavour has to be a collective one. I want to start by talking again about the Conservative amendment and the hypocrisy in it when it comes to talking about attracting people to this country. This is a party that gave up on attracting people to the country years ago, with its restrictive immigration rhetoric and anti-immigration policies. Those anti-immigration policies have been lumbasted by business over the course of the past few weeks for jeopardising the economy, for damaging the economy and for devastating the economy. This is a Government in the UK who, in the words of one business organisation, seems hell-bent on ignoring the business community when it comes to its immigration policy. When it comes to attracting people, the Conservatives might want to figure out how to attract people before they lecture others on attracting people. Back to supporting Scotland's people and choosing to invest in Scotland's talent as well as attracting people to this country. That Scotland can do approach again makes clear that we will only be able to do that if we are working across society with private, public and third sector partners. I want to touch on a number of issues that members have raised when it comes to growth support. Along with RBS and the Hunter Foundation, we created and continue to support the Scottish Edge Fund. The private partner spun out of Scottish Enterprise has, since 2013, awarded more than £13 million to 350 businesses, supported the creation of more than 1,600 jobs, with an increase of more than £130 million of turnover and helped to secure more than £100 million of additional investment. Following our economic action plan, the commitment to amplify can do, Scottish Enterprise has invested a further £1 million into Scottish Edge. I want to pay tribute to Gillian Martin and the cross-party group on Women in Enterprise and Elaine Smith's comments. In 2014, we launched with Women's Enterprise Scotland the first policy framework to tackle the enterprise gender gap in the first anywhere in the EU. We are now progressing through the Women in Enterprise action group with many other partners. It is so important that we are working with other partners, including investing women, the FSB, Scottish Chambers of Commerce and the Association of Scottish Businesswomen. We are together trying to drive change, because we recognise that figure that Gillian Martin quoted about the huge impact to the Scottish economy if the start-up rate among women entrepreneurs was the same as men. It is by working with and listening to those partners that we have started to achieve progress. Elaine Smith specifically asked about investment. I wanted to draw members' attention to the new digital fund that was in the budget, which I will be taking forward and specifically focuses on providing grant support to those who are furthest from the labour market to get the digital skills that they need, the tech skills that they need, which are so needed in our economy today, to expand the workforce and to provide them with the sport. Recognising that, in particular, I would like to encourage women to be part of accessing that fund, as well as others who are furthest from the labour market. Dean Lockhart, on the point of digital skills and as Minister for Digital Skills, does she support our calls for the establishment of a dedicated institute of e-commerce? I support individuals and businesses who want to improve what they are doing digitally. We recognise that, at the moment, industry tells us that we need about 12,800 new entrants to the digital workforce in order to keep standing without even starting to realise the huge opportunities that come with digital. We are ensuring that we are putting in place right now the digital funds, the digital growth funds for business as well as individuals to make sure that businesses recognise the opportunities and individuals take advantage of the opportunities to retrain. Our shared mission is of an entrepreneurial society. That starts with government as well. It means that government needs to value an entrepreneurial mindset that we support externally. We want to see that entrepreneurial mindset within government, and we want to support startups, particularly through our procurement approach. A core part of that approach is through CivTech, which is an innovative project that works with the public sector to disrupt normal procurement models and to put out problems for small companies to work towards. That can often be the first step for small and medium-sized entrepreneurial businesses to get their foot through the door. As I come to a close now, there is much to be optimistic about in terms of the business startup and the growth rates in Scotland. We are seeing success. We know that, internationally, Scotland is the fifth most effective environment for business support globally. That is something to celebrate. In light of the UK Government's damaging proposals, not just when it comes to market access but also in immigration, we know that we need to work even harder to make sure that Scotland is an attractive place for skills and talent, and that entrepreneurs choose to set up a business here in Scotland. Under section 27A of the Scotland Act, the participation of the Scottish law officers, as it says, may participate in the proceedings of the Parliament to the extent permitted by standing orders. If I can turn to standing orders rule 4.5, it says, participation of the Scottish law officers in proceedings 1. This rule applies with a Lord Advocate and such that the general are not members of the Parliament. 2. The Scottish law officers may participate in any proceedings of the Parliament as fully as any other members, except for voting and membership of the corporate body and parliamentary bureau. 3. These rules apply to the Scottish law officers when participating in any proceedings of the Parliament, as if they were members. Earlier, in portfolio questions on justice and the law officers, I asked what the Lord Advocate's position is on the Scottish Government's competency to authorise another referendum on Scottish independence without section 30. Order. Please note, Presiding Officer, that my initial question, I did not ask what his advice was to the Scottish Government. I asked directly what his view was. The Lord Advocate was present in the chamber, but the Scottish Government chose to have the Minister for Parliamentary Business respond. Over the years, I had not thought of asking about the Lord Advocate's view, because he is the head of the prosecution service and previously he has always answered questions to do with prosecutions. Last year, he entered the fray with the European continuity bill and responded to questions from MSPs in this chamber on his duties in there. In my earlier point of order, the Deputy Presiding Officer quite correctly pointed out that standing order section A31 allows any minister to respond to an oral question in the chamber. The letter, if not the spirit of standing orders, was complied with. I accept that entirely. That's all that matters now here, but it isn't. Could I therefore ask you, Presiding Officer, as chair of the Parliamentary Bureau, to have the Bureau re-examine Parliament standing orders to see if, in this instance, they are fit for purpose in allowing members in this chamber to directly question our law officers on their duties as they see them? If you, Presiding Officer, will raise this in the Bureau and the Bureau decides that the standing orders in this case needs revision, could you outline the process that then needs to be followed? I thank Mr Rumbles for advance notice of his point of order. I also assure him that I did follow all the earlier proceedings. I heard the question that the member put. I heard the response from the Minister for Parliamentary Business. I heard the further exchange with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the chair, and, as the member has highlighted, the response that the member recognises is right, that it is up to the Government to choose which minister to put forward to respond to questions to the Government. Having said that, I have looked further into this matter, and, although I recognise the point and the concern that the member raises, it is, in fact, not for the Bureau to look at standing order changes. It is for the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee. If the member wishes to proceed further, he may wish to write to that committee. That committee could, in turn, of course ask the Bureau for the Bureau's views, but that would be the procedure to follow. Thank you very much. We are going to proceed now to the next item of business, which is consideration of business motion 1515 in the name of Graham Day on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, and could I call on Graham Day to move the motion? Presiding Officer, I have moved. Thank you very much. No one wishes to speak against the motion. The question, therefore, is that motion 1515 be agreed. Are we all agreed? Yes. Thank you. The next item is consideration of two Parliamentary Bureau motions. Could I ask Graham Day on behalf of the Bureau to move motions 1514 on approval of an SSI, and 1552 on a committee meeting at the same time as the chamber? Move, Presiding Officer. Thanks very much. We turn now to decision time. The first question is that amendment 1507.1 in the name of Dean Lockhart, which seeks to amend motion 1507 in the name of Kate Forbes, on supporting entrepreneurship, be agreed. Are we all agreed? No. We are not agreed. We will move to a division. Members may cast their votes now. The result of the vote on amendment number 1507.1 in the name of Dean Lockhart is yes, 28, no, 81, there were no abstentions, the amendment is therefore not agreed. The next question is that amendment 1507.2 in the name of Rhoda Grant, which seeks to amend the motion in the name of Kate Forbes, be agreed. Are we all agreed? Yes. We are not agreed. We will move to a division and members may cast their votes now. The result of the vote on amendment number 1507.2 in the name of Rhoda Grant is yes, 82, no, 27, there were no abstentions, the amendment is therefore agreed. And the next question is that motion 1507 in the name of Kate Forbes, as amended, on supporting entrepreneurship, be agreed. Are we all agreed? No. We are not agreed. We will move to a vote. Members may cast their votes now. The result of the vote on motion 1507 in the name of Kate Forbes, as amended, is yes, 76, no, 27, there were six abstentions, the motion as amended is therefore agreed. The next question is that motion 15514 in the name of Graham Day, on approval of an SSI, be agreed. Are we all agreed? Yes. We are not agreed. We will move to a vote and members may cast their votes now. The result of the vote on motion 15512 in the name of Graham Day is yes, 82, there were no votes against, there were 27 abstentions and the motion is therefore agreed. And our final question this evening is that motion 1... I've read out the number on the last motion. The last motion was 15514, but it was agreed. This motion is motion 15512 in the name of Graham Day, on a committee meeting at the same time as the chamber. Are we all agreed? No. We are agreed. Thank you very much. And that concludes decision time. We're going to move now to members' business in the name of Colin Beattie on celebrating the reach of adult learning. And we'll just take a few moments for members and for the minister to change seats.