 Hey everybody, tonight we're debating whether or not Islam is oppressive to women and we are starting right now with Stardust and Mark's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us. Stardust, the floor is all yours. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. So the question for tonight is, does Islam oppress women? Yes, it does. When I argue that Islam oppresses women, I think it's important to note that I don't reserve this criticism for Islam alone. Almost all religions oppress women and put them in a secondary status to their male counterparts. Many Muslims will point to the ways in history where Muslims gave more rights to women than other religions and when it came to the ownership of land and other rights etc. My argument against this is that the world has changed and even with that in mind, the standards of the past are what they are and are still inadequate in today's world. For today's debate we can look at specific passages from the Qur'an that enforce the inequality of men and women. For example, the Qur'an in Surah 223 says, your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like. Islamic scholar Syed Abdul-Madadi said the following of the verse, Allah has not created women merely for the enjoyment and entertainment of men. The relation between the two is as serious and a fair as that of a farmer in his field. The farmer does not go into his field merely for recreation and enjoyment but for cultivation to get produced from it. In the same way, a man should go into his wife to produce children. So basically what I read from that is that a husband is entitled and given a duty to be intimate with his wife in the way that a farmer with their field. There's also the Qur'an in Surah 228 that says, wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course men are a degree above them in status. There's also Surah 434 that says men are the managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other. There's also the issue of men getting double a share of an inheritance over that of females in Surah 411. The fact that a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's testimony in Surah 2282. A wife may remarry her ex-husband if and only if she marries another man they have sex and then the second man divorces her. And that seems like a I can't seem to understand why that is a requirement. Regarding prisoners of war and slave the Qur'an in Surah 424 says forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands as prisoners of war. And this shows that Muslim men were allowed to have sex with their wives of course and slaves that were women. There's obviously polygamy which is allowed for men in the Qur'an and men are allowed to have multiple wives even wives from other different religions. Are women afforded the same privilege? No, women can only marry other Muslim men. Husband may hit his wife if she fears she is disobedient or high handed. So this is in 434 if you fear high handedness from your wives remind them then ignore them when you go to bed then hit them. If they obey you you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. There is another translation that says beat them with lightly in parentheses. I would still say that the use of physical violence is still something that I would disagree with. Who are men allowed to marry and consummate marriage with? The Qur'an in Surah 651 says oh prophet when you and the believers divorce women divorce them for their prescribed waiting period and count the waiting period accurately. And if you're in doubt about those of your women who have disparate of menstruation you should know that their waiting period is three months and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. This says that men are allowed to divorce women who have not had their periods at which implies they may marry and consummate with women who have had not their periods yet. So that's worrisome to me. These are just a few ways a few places within the Qur'an that I find things problematic and I'll pass it over to my partner. Thank you very much Stardust. I do admit this was sort of short notice and I did come across the same things in the Qur'an that Stardust did. Give me one second and I'm just going to put it up on the screen so we can see what it is that we're talking about. Sorry James just one second. No problem. Fantastic. Thank you. So quickly we'll just go through. First off I do want to give a sort of definition of oppression. So what are we actually talking about when we're talking about depression? Oppression is basically the devaluation of a segment of the population in this case the female population in comparison to men in order to deprive them of privileges and therefore power within a society. As a system Islam performs this devaluation because of its holy book the Qur'an the which is Sharia law is based upon off. But the systems that that that interprets the Qur'an and issues fake or precise Judas Purans, a prudence in particular is also not amenable to women in the power structure and they're critically unrepresented. Since the Qur'an is the opposite sort of the wide scope of Sharia. Let's look at some of the surahs in value and I do admit that Stardust did go through a few of these but I want to discuss them sort of in depth. So this is where they do say as Stardust mentioned men are a degree above women. Now I want to point out that it doesn't say to how much a degree. It says they have rights similar but this in no way makes clear whether they're a small degree or a very large degree over women. This is in fiscal matters the the worst of a woman's testimony or witnessing is half of that is the man. Remember that half part it does come in back in later but to sort of leap off what Stardust is saying notice that it doesn't say if two men not at be at hand then two women will do or three women or four women or a hundred women. A man has to be involved somewhere and that is a power inequality that takes the right of women to solidify and be witnesses by themselves. And this is the polygamy one where you can marry three two or three or four women. Do note that it does say you can marry the captives your right hands possess. So your right hand is your weapon hand it's the captives you have won by the sword and basically you can marry them if you do want to and do keep that in mind as well. We'll get back to that later. This is the inheritance. This basically says that the women will be given half that of any son. The daughter will only be given half of that of any son. This creates financial inequality as most of the wealthy will be passed down to the sons instead of the daughters. It may seem innocuous that they're giving them something but it does it's a clear indication that women are devalued within Islam. Let's touch back on that that your right hand. So this is you're forbidden to marry all women all married women. So what this basically says is that you don't touch a married woman unless you have one of your enemies wives and then you can ignore their marriage. You can basically say hey that marriage doesn't matter. You can just ignore the marital status even if that person is still alive. If it is a result of war. This clearly states men are in charge of women and it also admonishes women to be obedient. This is where the power dynamic the the Quran clearly states for women to be obedient to the men and admonishes them and Stardust touched upon the whole beating thing. Now even if this beating and it's usually not but even if this beating is even ceremonial the the simple act of being able to physically admonish your your wife or your partner or a woman just shows the power dynamic inherent within this religion. It shows that as a man you can beat a woman as a woman you cannot admonish or beat a man. And we touched on this as well. This is particularly nasty. Basically those who have not menstruated you can divorce them. It clearly says that you know the men can marry a girl who has not menstruated i.e. one that has not reached puberty. So you know this is a particularly nasty system here. This is probably the origin of the whole idea of where the veil and sort of covering up comes from. There's a concept of nakedness and it calls for women to cover themselves. It claims that this is for the sort of respect of women. However it's clearly a power imbalance and men aren't required to cover themselves as women are. And only in the most progressive societies women are allowed to lead prayer in Islam. This is basically just for a bonus. I thought I'd add the hadith where wearing the veil comes from. While not part of the Quran obviously it is from the hadith. And now how are these interpreted? So the way that these are interpreted with Shia it's basically the imamah that decides how this is interpreted and they're supposed to be Islamic prophets that have successes of male descendants. And this is how they preclude women for participating in the interpretation of the Quran and the hadith. So that's within Shia. In Sunni it lies with the ulama which is sort of the wise and knowledgeable people in the community. But the problem is that women are often very restricted from participation. There's severe underrepresentation within most communities. So men generally will hold the power and they'll prevent women from gaining power getting into the ulama and therefore being able to make decisions by themselves. And I just as a last thing I do want to point out and Stardust touched upon this that none of the progressive things happening in Islam is because of Islam itself. The problem is that Islam has had to be forced to basically come up to speed with secular law and Sharia by itself does not adhere to women's rights to feminine rights. There is a movement Islamic feminism but they are generally resisted by the rest of the religion have had to fight tooth and nail to get there. So it is not Islam that is becoming up to date by itself. It is only because they have been forced to which means that the religion itself is not progressive. Thank you. You got it. Thank you very much for that opening mark. We are going to kick it into the openings from the other side as well. But before we do kick it over to Muhammad and Hussain want to say folks if it's your first time here at Modern Day Debate I'm your host James Coons. We are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics. We hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from. And got to tell you folks we are thrilled to announce our third conference has been set for Saturday April 22nd. You don't want to miss it as you can see at the bottom right of your screen. Debate Con 3.1 is going to be in Fort Worth Texas this spring April 22nd. You don't want to miss it. Then we're going to have our second part which is political debates out in June. So this first one Debate Con 3.1 is all religion debates. In fact you might be wondering well what kind of topics are going to be there James. Let me show you. We are very excited about this. This is going to be one of the bigger debates in a long time. Daniel Hukikachu and Mike Jones debating whether or not child marriage is morally acceptable. The Quran versus the Bible. You don't want to miss it. It's going to be controversial. It's going to be huge. Hit that subscribe button if you haven't and we'll get you more details on that conference shortly as we're still finalizing the debate card. With that thank you very much Muhammad and Hussain. We're thrilled to have you with us. The floor is all yours. Hello everybody. Thank you James for having me and thank you Modern Day Debate for hosting this. In the name of God the merciful the benevolent peace and blessings to the messenger. When it comes to the idea that women are oppressed in Islam that claim is totally baseless and is the summation of western propaganda through their fight in influence and control. In fact as my opponent stated Islam liberated women gave women the rights they deserve as females. Nothing more and nothing less. Western society saw the rights that women enjoyed in Islamic societies and pressed to earn the same rights that the Quran promotes. However because they don't have a rigid structured system that is found in the Quran and that they are a heedless society they decorated falsehood with the truth and began to market empowering women as women's right which is far from the truth and they shouldn't have been intertwined. Islam's discipline and herocracy structure which clearly defines the roles of women shielded our community and especially our daughters from the self-oppression due to the empowering women movement. To prove this it's quite simple. A from a historical point the Ottoman caliphate which was the last theocracy that adhered to Islamic law on a state level was the cause of disdain for many foreign women that visited the empire. Asli Sankar who is an American born researcher spent 20 years investigating the life of women in the Ottoman Empire states that even the foreigners who dislike Muslim society and bared hostility towards the Ottoman Empire in particular could not but admit that Ottoman women enjoyed much more freedom and were way more respected and loved than their European counterparts. There's a Quranic law that states that if a man gives anything to one of his wives he's not allowed to take anything of it back other than if the wife committed a clear umorality like infidelity or if she willingly and wholeheartedly gives that item back. Islamic courts upheld this value and considered the sacredness of the half of the household that's under the wife's possession and if she was divorced or widowed that houses her property as the Quran states. Lucy M. Gardnet who in 1909 wrote with regards to legal status Turkish women already possesses the legal personal and propriety rights necessary to give them a social position equal if not superior to that of European women generally. Point B the Quran has a structure to not only liberate women but also to protect them there's a direct correlation that when you increase security and technicalities of protection that you have to sacrifice comfort and ease for example if doors are non-existent and you can get up from your chair and walk directly to your car and drive off it's easier it's easier and more streamlined and you don't waste time finding keys and dealing with locks however the chances of you losing your stuff is exponentially higher that's why we have doors but as a result we need to sacrifice time and comfort to deal with the locks and doors and making sure our security practices are in check and not to be lazy with it. Same thing when it comes to protecting women veiling them and giving them the respective spaces instead of mixing it isn't easy and it can be a cause of extra work and some discomfort but the effort is greatly rewarded since we safeguard our women from men with sick hearts and we save them from falling into the one of the devil's biggest trap wanting and desiring this world which brings me to point C in Islam the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and Prophet Abraham peace be upon him are our role models and the men we inspire to get close to in regards to our persona thinking and traditions and relationship with God so as a practicing religious person I expect my wife and sisters to learn from our beloved Prophet's wives which are told by the by God in Quran that the wives of the prophets are our mothers verse 33 28 in the Quran states O Prophet tell your wives if you seek the world and its embellishments then come and I will arrange some provisions for you and release you in an honorable way but if you see God in his messenger and the adobe of the hereafter then surely God has prepared a great reward for those who are who do good quite simply feminism is all about the here and now it's trying to get as much as you can from pleasure and material from the current world without social consequences and without considering the long-term effects like you can't see further from your nose without considering the hereafter many women that fall into feminism cannot fathom their life when they are 50 and 60 and above when your sexual appeal on instagram and youtube has more likely diminished and you are no longer simply approved material or that your services at your job are no longer acquired at that point you will live in depression and loneliness that caused that you caused and promoted your whole life while our women don't need to go through that pain and they live a fulfilling life and leave a legacy behind if they work towards that one righteous son can become many generations of righteous men that make this world a better place which is all written in god's book for the day of judgment a generation of good men will come back to the mother that started that chain our researchers from western kentucky university found that a positive relationship between marital satisfaction and religion continues to be supported through research and is consistent across ethnic and racial lines this is consistent in religious faith including christianity judaism in islam spouses who have internalized religious values about moral character and marital sanctity may engage in behaviors experienced as more satisfying to their spouses that is the religious spouse will tend to express more forms of devotion to one's spouse so like less criticism which increases the marital marital satisfaction of the other spouse however it was found that husbands with strong religious faith increased wife's marital satisfaction but wives who religious faith was predictive of lower level or marital satisfaction in both the wife and the husband like if the husband wasn't religious and other researchers states that women and highly religious couples were more likely to report that she and her spouse practiced joint decision making in their relationship so the responsibility falls on the man to provide a satisfactory marriage to do so they must be religious god-fearing men who adhere to the discipline that comes within their religion and expect their wives to adhere to what god has said which is the best for humanity and god said that men are authoritative over women and authoritative doesn't mean or does not equate with oppressive trying to fight ink to find the root other than what god has prescribed in the long run it's disastrous if a woman is seeking a satisfactory marriage she should look for a highly religious man but said men have standards and feminism doesn't cut it we'll kick it over to Hussein god go ahead Hussein okay thank you um it's a long time everyone and thanks for having me james and thanks for having modern database it's really cool platform um so oppression by definition is a state of being subject to unjust treatment or control uh often liberals want to categorize Islam as oppressive due to having limits or rules on women and they ignore that Islam correctly addresses how the world is for the average person and gives rules for both genders accordingly rules in and of themselves are not inherently oppressive they need an aspect of injustice so for example i really love sports cars is a car enthusiast i would love to drive 80 miles an hour you know wherever i'm going but it wouldn't be oppressive to limit my speed due to society and large needing rules to safeguard people and course them to behave in a responsible way Islam does just this and it does not impress women because it fundamentally is just in its treatment of both genders and their needs in line with human nature in contrast it's actually feminism and liberalism that oppresses women by going against their inherent nature so both sides of this argument like to use coercion and social engineering or stigmas to get their desired results however liberalism themselves um excuse me the policies and stigmas in place are essentially in order to achieve like an end goal so Islam totally agrees with this as well that's why we have rules that's why we tell people how to behave it's just they want to both maximize happiness but Islam is the only correct answer so excuse me so you got anyways so i'm sorry i'm not done no problem i just lost my place so okay so both view the roles of women in society differently a good example would be however that there's a paradox currently happening so women's happiness actually in western societies are declining and women's happiness are actually happier so if there was all this oppression in a 2015 study we would see that however women were actually happier in underdeveloped nations as well as Islamic nations over western nations which is contradictory to western sensibilities another study in 2016 found that women who were mothers had a higher life satisfaction overall than non-mothers um so pretty much women naturally on average want to be mothers an Australian study as well found that it's good for women's health 74% of them still wanted to be mothers despite Australia being a highly liberal society um and there's a not that same study found that proposed part of mothers had the highest rate of life satisfaction so it intrinsically showed that women feel the most fulfilled by giving birth there's numerous studies that conclude essentially this the answer for what is just and leads to a better society is Islam it is not the what the west likes to support so the data is clear on this it choruses both men and women to seek the same seek the same thing that liberalism wants to do but instead liberalism choruses women to be girl bosses which has long term horrible effects for society and women themselves so no one is saying women can't work or that they need but essentially it's not needed so because the man has a duty to make it so a woman doesn't need to work so liberalism is the opposite of justice actually it destroys the family destroys women and men's relations and tears at the fabric of society so Islam is not a unjust in that way there's a 2018 study found that 85% of women in the west do not feel supported in being a mother so this just goes to show the trend that liberalism doesn't actually support being a mother and that's why they have this societal pressure versus in Islamic countries it's a main standpoint of being a woman the irony here is again that liberalism is essentially making the trope of single cat moms drinking wine and high on SSRIs so again the data shows that women are the number one users of SSRIs and that it's specifically harsh for older women unfortunately I actually feel very bad for them in the sense that they're born into this system that's raising them to not know any better so however they still want to say that Islam's oppressive a psychology and behavior science study in 2019 found that while both housewives and career women had the same level of stress as working women working women were actually more depressed so clearly liberals and leftists are missing something about women fundamentally and they are harming women in society at large women have the highest levels of depression and SSR use usage compared to women in the past and there's no other nothing other than the happiness paradox that you can read so in conclusion Islam has the rules but these rules are not impressive because they actually lead to a better outcomes for women in society at large just like a speed limit and then I just wanted to end with a quote from an actual feminist remain Greer she actually wrote in her book the whole woman I mourn for my unborn children and this is a leader of the feminist movement who told women not to have children and that it was inherently oppressive you got it thank you very much for that opening as well we are going to get into the open discussion but want to say first folks we are very excited if you have been living in a cave on mars with your fingers in your ears and you didn't know that modern day debate has a podcast we gotta let you know we absolutely do if you look at the bottom right of your screen I'm pulling it up right now modern day debate is available on every podcast app out there we encourage you to find us on your favorite podcast app right now as all of our debates are uploaded to the modern day debate podcast available on apple apple podcast Spotify you name it within 24 hours of the debate being live so check out modern day debate on your favorite podcast right now subscribe and follow and maybe you'd like it with that we're going to kick it into the open dialogue thank you very much Muhammad Hussein mark and stardust the floor is all yours though I'd like to push back on this happiness paradox one second pardon my interruption I noticed it earlier stardust but it was bearable it wasn't a problem but now I noticed a little bit lower if you if you could turn up your volume just a little bit more it looks like it might have maybe my obs is funky but it looks like it's just a little bit lower relative to when we did the test at the start okay how's it now I can see you go a little bit higher yet yeah uh check there you go check very good perfect thank you all right uh so the happiness gap comes from a paper in 2008 um but more recent data has actually shown that women are now on par or exceeding men in happiness um and this is from a recent 2015 Gallup happiness survey um so I would say that um yes uh for a while women's happiness uh seemed to be decreasing but it's actually uh it actually has recovered and is now on par with men's um secondly I would say that this idea that feminism's anti-family is a complete myth the earliest um the earliest versions of feminism were very pro-family advocated for family rights advocated for parental leave for not just women but for men too right um feminism initially was a very pro-family movement um uh it also advocated for equal parenting um which is beneficial for children um and it advocated for men to be more involved in their children um feminism overall um uh you know was one of the first movements that was pushing for uh social safety nets especially for women who encountered uh unfortunate situations where they would lose a partner they would lose a you know a source of income things like that and women had to go out and work right because you never know what's going to happen to a partner you never know if they're going to become disabled if they're going to get sick if they're going to uh die right a little bit give you a maybe 30 seconds and then we got to kick it over to the other side yeah yeah uh and then um what i would say is that um uh this idea that um that uh women um have never another another myth is like that women have never had to work outside the home right this is a myth um globally women have always worked right they just worked in different uh different um uh female designated um professions right now this uh i wanted to touch on something that Muhammad said earlier um which was let me pull it up here um that authoritative does not equal oppressive if authoritative doesn't mean oppressive what does it mean when men are just to be sure that we don't have too long of uh we don't want to go back into the speeches so we just to be sure that it's short and pithy responses i've gotta let's start with those points we'll come to this next point that you were about to bring up but just to hear from the other side quick yeah yes uh just sorry cool question when you're saying that yes by theory and they might write it down that you know feminism is pro family okay but let's just look at the reality how is it pro family when the woman has to spend more her more of her time in her life in a corporate structure or a work environment to provide and to serve the job that she's at rather than serving her family so how's that pro pro family yes historically will the man contributes to the family yeah historically women globally historically men women have always worked this idea of women not working is a is just a blip within the grand span of of the history of the world right on average women have the on average no the average on average women worked they worked in specific industries and oftentimes you'll look at women in other countries um like um 75 percent of the agricultural labor is made up of women um globally you can look at men right okay so let's look at the farms those farms are people's daughters wives and aunts and uncles that are working on that farm so they're still part of the family doing family work they're not going out to a corporate business and and just to answer that other point that you made what does that matter here because they're working with their family it's a part of a family unit yeah it's strengthening the family they're not going to a corporate life not necessarily a lot of a lot of these uh farmers would go off to other people's farms where they would work they would take their wives with them and guess what that wives labor wouldn't be counted under that wife it would be counted under the husband's labor correct so so after taking care of the family after taking care of the family after taking care of the children the women would go with the men to the farm work with the men and then all of their labor was counted under the man stardust you said it again they went with their family which is their man at their husband which is their family and the way they went and worked so the family is getting paid as you said for the longest time in history the man is the centerpiece of the household so when it's under the man it's the man and his kid isn't all the people around him but also to answer another point to you now here's a question if if if the ceo is at a certain position in a company and the cefo is in a different position in a company right because the ceo has more authority therefore the ceo is oppressive to the ceo because the ceo doesn't have the the the ability to to to kind of trump in certain decisions it doesn't mean that's not even that's not even analogous secondly your first your first criticism with me was that how can feminism be pro women when you're taking women out of the household but you're women have always been women have always been outside of the household they've always been outside of the household yeah they're out of the family they've always been outside and work there is no reason to compare a structure of paid employees to the inherent rights of men and women no no what we're talking about no no no hold on hold on hold on what we're talking about is the equality between men and women you're basically making the argument that it is necessary to oppress women and i find it particularly disturbing that mohammed in your opening you compared women to a door and who's saying in your opening you see this is where you're not listening hey hey hey hey be quiet you don't know you're like compared to a car then stop and compare women to have some respect no no i haven't this is one of the first things i've said thank you do this once in a while so i'm gonna turn it over to where once i allow our students to unmute themselves so okay so if i have to mute anybody you won't be able to unmute yourself for this debate usually we do that but in this case i don't i don't trust you guys so what we're gonna do is let's let mark finish his point i promise we'll come right back to you mohammed and yeah saying so you can see that the attitudes that if you're you're basically saying hey a woman is a door it's convenient to do these things to her that she's an object and again her saying comparing a woman to an object it's a car you can't let it go too fast this is the kind of restrictions that islam is putting on women because they do see them as possessions you own a door you own a car and and they are so baked into islam that these guys they don't see it's like a water fish not seeing water they are so deep within that culture that a woman is subservient and lesser to a man they don't even realize it and that's what i wanted to point out okay so one i never compared a woman to a car i said there's rules for driving a car just like there's rules for men and women in islam so apparently your brain's too small to understand what i'm talking about two um start us i'm talking about uh second wave feminism which is like the the most um popular branch of feminism now so for example like svawon de vevoire uh betty for dan germain greer like all these people specifically said that being a mother is bad essentially and they actually preached that and then you can see the rate of motherhood actually falling within western society so if the trend continues there will be less and less mothers that's why uh you can even look like fertility rates in quote unquote uncivilized cultures is actually higher because they have traditional values versus western cultures so if you're like a utilitarian atheist mark for example there's tons of data you can look at where you would want a religious society actually so okay so i have to reply to a couple of these things right the idea that being a mother was only negative in in the idea that um that society in itself did not make space for mothers did not was not accommodating to mothers and while you claim that being a mother is the most important um important job in the world there was um there was little to no support for women women who were stay-at-home moms were often on barbiturates who were often were on often on drugs right um and uh you can look at that um and uh you know nobody's saying that being a mother is a useless thing that being a mother is bad obviously these are good things right and feminism again was one of the first movements that really advocated for mothers advocated for um for women who were uh childbearing um but um what i would say also in response to um there was a second point that you had uh who's saying that i wanted to respond to but i can't remember what it was now um anybody remember what the second point was women are cars they're people no i mean no no um no um i don't remember what the second point was i don't remember what i was going to say but um i will say that um again even women who worked in tailoring who worked in um childcare who worked in women specific industries were leaving their families to go and work so it's not new women leaving their families to go out and work and help contribute to their family um is not anything new so do you guys do you think that like islam just says women can't work and that's why it's oppressive like what exactly no okay no but islamic cultures have instituted things that have put the man in control of the woman working so um i believe in uh i ran i think it was they for 70 of the population was men while women were found it very very hard to get so and in most businesses that employed women you needed the permission of your husband to work and so what it sounds like to me and you know sort of what you're saying with this this car this speeding analogy and this this you're placing restrictions on women and sort of calling them uh just and you said it was just to do so but our understanding of justice is is an equality one so you seem to think that because you restrict women you're being oppressive but that oppression is a necessary oppression it's something that you um are forced to do because of what you said was the inherent nature of women and if women were not meant to go out and pursue other things beyond family why do we spend a third of our lives past our reproductive years it makes no sense if you spend a you know a third of your reproductive years are past the age of which you can bear children um obviously women are meant for just more more than just that i think you guys have like a very skewed view of like islamic societies no one is saying like you can go to arab countries and women are doing community service in fact they're told by the prophet peace be upon him to do community service it's just the fact of the matter that it's it's on average better for women while their child bearing years to be at home so there's an economic efficiency argument so for example in the europe uh excuse me in the europe in europe uh it's about 50k just for women and uh any family to send their kids off um and the average salary in europe is only 33k so women are actually losing and they're making their family lose money by going into the workplace so if they just stayed home it'd be better for the family overall and then again there's also stats on how children are raised better when there's two parent households for example as well as a person in the home so there's a bunch of there's okay so then there's statistics that show it's but these are all better ways to operate the society so why why would it be impressive by coercing society to act that see my response was not to to say this was not a me accusing islam of of preventing women from working this was a response to mohammad saying that um that liberal feminism or feminism in the west is taking women out of the family uh to go work when in reality women have always been leaving their families to go work throughout history throughout the history of time and history of humans so islam is just saying in a just world the women wouldn't have to work that's essentially what the goal is trying to strive for why not men don't have to work men men worked throughout society like they've always worked no no no you're saying you have always worked through society too yeah so why why is it women that you're saying in a just society you know in a sort of ideal society women wouldn't have to work why not in an ideal society men wouldn't have to work so women are going to be doing firefighters and all these jobs they don't want to do they can i mean i'm i mean there's like biological like there's biological like things happen the idea that is why the idea that women can't do most of the jobs men can and i grant you men are generally bigger and stronger so there are some jobs more suited to to men but the the idea that a woman can't drive a truck or operate mining equipment we don't use like sheer brute strength anymore we use machines the days of being big and strong to be able to work are over i'm really sorry it's dead it's over we have machinery automation now that does all of that and plus most jobs now are actually in the the sort of service fields and things like that so there's no so why not in an ideal society on the men staying home why is it the women's fundamental nature that you're appealing to and i would also say that on mark's point the one thing that liberal feminism has advocated for has been parental leave especially during the you know around the time of pregnancy for both women and for men and i do want to push back against this idea that that sort of just just to be sure it's not i would do what you what you're doing mark i i just keep going or i should say i would try to make a point but i want to be sure mohammed and who's saying you had a point just because i know that sometimes debaters are sometimes more mellow and they're just kind of like they're waiting for a really clear and obvious opening but feel free to interject because both mark and start us have made a point uh mohammed we can't hear you you might be on mute uh you have to unmute yourself right well let me i don't uh oh yeah i think what's happened is since you guys can't mute um you can't unmute yourselves because i deselected that because it got rowdy at the start once you guys mute yourselves then i have to actually manually go in and unmute you so just so you i'll unmute everybody right now just to be sure and i think uh you know so go ahead though mohammed it looks like you had a point yeah well no it's just to come back to the earlier point mark made that when i was comparing women to doors that was not the case i was comparing the veil to the door is that the veil is giving securities not comparing women to objects but when it comes to objectifying women i feel like in the west uh driving down the street and looking at the billboards i don't see people putting uh like i don't see people putting niqabs and and hijabi women on the posters but they're rather putting women that are half naked and sex sells that's the marketing so when it comes to objectifying women that's something that's done in the west from modern like everywhere you go you know let me put a very good-looking secretary because that's good for business let me put uh the sexy woman on the posters because that's good for marketing and business so i don't understand where you think that we're objectifying and oppressing women when they're used as sex objects in the west literally i'm mohammed whenever you guys sorry you pause there i yeah sorry i because i just wanted to add something i would like to take some opportunities to go over some of the verses that you guys pointed out because there are some inconsistencies with what you said but let's just discuss this point yeah you point up point um could you tell me what taharash um taharash jamai is he accidentally muted himself i think again yeah no problem well in the meantime do want to remind you folks if you have not yet hit like we do appreciate that support and i just clicked unmute on mohammed sorry i didn't i didn't i didn't think you were gonna keep that feature uh mark sorry what was your question because i didn't understand what's uh taharash jamai jamai i'm understanding jamai which is like the jamai like the group but i don't know what the first one taharash yeah so it's basically a coordinated attack by muslim men on non-muslim women not wearing a hijab um a reporter called Lara Logan suffered this attack in egypt in 2011 where the entire crowd of muslim men will um surround the the woman and basically sexually assault her and it's seen as a game in islam because the the woman not wearing a hijab is considered an enemy and therefore completely accessible by the muslim men so my sister this has been reported by by many people in in islamic countries as being a sort of practice that the muslim men participate in mark i would love to see the sources of what you're saying because i personally have cousins and sisters that don't have that don't wear the hijab that literally went to egypt last year and nobody did whatever you said because i haven't even heard that term taharash jamai like that what you're saying there is just a little bit of propaganda and maybe like one story that went viral that this is this is all of islam this is an islam plus you need to understand there's a difference between islam and islam's law and what erud and societies are doing there's there's a separation between religion and what society is doing nowadays there is nothing in islam there's no islam about what was happening in the west so why don't we get point out what's happening in the arab world because we're discussing islam islam is international it's not just erud that that that correlation between erud and islam but you're sort of saying hey women are put up on billboards in the west you're sort of saying well islam would you know that doesn't happen in islam correct but horrendous things do happen in islam and you're not bringing up any of those you're specifically picking on the things in the west while ignoring all of the stuff that happens in in in in egypt and and this was in egypt you know this is a comparison between this is a comparison you brought up the secular world the secular society where certain things happen with women right so i think it's fair that we bring up like islamic societies that exist that where certain things happen okay but these islamic societies are not adhering to proper islamic laws because the same billboards that i see here in the west now that there is a lot of western influences i'm seeing the same billboards in egypt and i'm seeing the same billboards all over the world the end but the west doesn't have this problem this particular problem of this practice and i've put in a news article from word of buzz a word of buzz news article that says a practice where women are openly raped i've never heard or seen this live nor if that's a problem and by the way in our country in syria and other countries if there is a rape not even like this to the extreme where there's a lot of people that person is done there's not even jail or that person is done there is no rape or open rape and where we're coming from that's from a culture point of view but in a religion there is no rape and in like here you know uh you guys uh for example mark you put um verse 411 about the inheritance so you're saying that the women inherit double the man but then you didn't finish the no no no i'm saying the men inherit double the women sorry sorry the women the man is inheriting double the women but you didn't finish the verse writing it and i seen it get off when it says if the guy doesn't have a son nor any brothers and his parents inherit him the mother it's double the dad so that's the women getting double the dad at that point that's one it's sorry and other point i wanted to talk about yes so the mother is getting double the dad if the guy doesn't have a son or he doesn't have brothers or sisters so there is situations where the mother is getting double or the women is getting doubled in the meal her meal counterpart and one other thing her meal to the dad so she's saying the father right yeah oh i apologize and and then the other one when you're saying the testimony so there's a study by the harvard health publishing the harvard medical school in by 2050 13.8 million people in the u.s will likely have alzheimer's alzheimer's disease and two-third will be women so that thing is not about the intellect of the women but rather the memory of the women because it's trying to remember the testimony and what happened during them signing uh the debt agreement between two parties alzheimer's doesn't kick in until much later in life but the point that i'm making is that menopause menopause causes memory loss for women okay doesn't say anything about the age of the woman there it just says women in general do you think the memory of women is worse than men i think that there is an age when they come to a point where the women loses her memory faster than a man after menopause and these contracts that we're writing in debt some of them can go to 20 30 years it's not like a five-minute contract yeah i i don't think i don't think you know much about how the neurological systems of women versus men work and just because there is a higher prevalence of Alzheimer's doesn't mean that women inherently get worse memories i think that's just sort of an assertion mark let me finish this point and i'll let hussein and you like talk about it but it even even in even in that same article they're saying menopause is a leading cause of memory laws for women not only alzheimer's like alzheimer's is prevalent in women but it's also menopause causes is that there's a direct correlation between memory and menopause so that's why the verse is stated in that way because god knows god created us he knows that so but see the verse does not the verse does not specify menopausal women the verse does not specify women with alzheimer's the verse specifies women women just women in general because women in general and when we look at when no when we look at women in uh in general and look at women uh you know at the average age you know where they'll be making these types of decisions they have not reached the the age of alzheimer's onset yet start us i'm talking about the age of menopause okay after menopause her memory goes down if they're going into contracts and witnessing contracts within the age of 30 to 40 and some of these contracts are going to be for 20 to 30 years they're going to have the ability to uh that you know there's a there's a precaution just because of that biological issue but the contract is being made for the extended period of time it's not if that contract is made we're not worrying about the memory of the people uh you know making that contract because the contract exists i do just want to ask how this ties back to whether or not islam is oppressive to women i understand that you're kind of making a case if i understand it mohammed and who's saying you were kind of making a case for islam as being good to women relative to the alternatives like western liberalism stuff like that but this is it's getting to the point where i'm like it's so peripheral that i'm it's it's hard to make that case i'm i'm it's more difficult to see how you're making that case with this specific example can you explain how this specific example james uh stardust she said that women are oppressive are oppressed in the quran since the testimony of a woman or you need two women as of the testimony of a man i'm just saying that because of things of menopause and alzheimer's that affect women more more like more uh predominantly that's why it has been put in the okay thank you okay so i think how well if i could just say something sorry stardust i'm just gonna say something real quick i think that the problem is that that there might be some men that aren't don't have a good as memory as some women but the verse doesn't consider any of this it doesn't say judge them on you know how their memory is it's saying that all women testimony is worse less than all men even though a man might be you know sort of joe biden and completely you know off the rails and a woman might be very young acute and sharp and a way better witness the whole idea that doesn't factor this in is the problem actually makes blanket statements sorry it's about men and women in general it speaks about men and women in general and again menopause let me remind you happens in the last third of a woman's life right okay but it's saying when it came to marx point uh it's the people that you accept as witnesses so i'm not going to accept joe biden with his memory problems as a witness but it's also making stipulations general general statements on the course of humankind our mankind and it's very clear scientifically that women suffer more problems with memory loss than men it doesn't mean that men doesn't have memory loss but it's more prevalent in women because it says that if you want to hang on hang on hang on now i want to address that if you're vetoing men to make sure their memory is fine why aren't you vetoing women to make sure their memory is fine what's with the double standard muhammad no no no that also works with women i can veto women if i don't think her memory or that she's not a suitable witness still i'm not gonna be honest why the two women per one man as i can as i said it there's more memory loss for valiant women but you've already been trying that last only in the in the late stages of life though only in the late stages of life which you'll see the same thing with men okay but it's not just i'm telling you menopause it's not the late stage of life she's 40 50 years old when she hits menopause she's not 67 how bad is that memory loss how bad is the memory loss on menopause is it comparable to Alzheimer's absolutely not we're talking about truth we're talking about truth there's memory laws but you're talking about memory loss in comparison menopause is memory loss versus Alzheimer's is completely incomparable i was giving you in the statistics where that women end up having more Alzheimer's and i'm showing you another statistics that women suffer memory loss through menopause so it's it's a stage that just keeps getting worse but the menopause is unrelated to Alzheimer's it is unrelated to Alzheimer's Alzheimer's is a disease of its own unrelated to i'm making two points about the same topic yeah it's not about the relation neurology and the connection between them there's no connection between menopause and old time is except for no as you advance in age they begin to affect you so you've said hey old time is affects you later in life menopause affects you later in life they must be connected no they're not like and the whole idea that just because some women have a memory degradation past menopause that we should blanket sort of treat all women as half as much as men is just a complete misunderstanding of what those studies are saying mark for the third time i'm not correlating okay that menopause with Alzheimer's that's not what the correlation that i made but you're right there is a statement there's a blanket statement that women suffer with more memory loss than men so that stipulation and look or and protects us from yeah that's it yeah so it makes women lesser no matter what so the whole idea of of equality and i can't believe i have to explain this is that we take people on the traits that they have not saying hey you're part of this demographic therefore we're going to treat you as lesser because of the traits that i i judge all of your demographic has what we want to do is say hey is this woman intelligent concise has a good memory then yes her her testimony should be equal to a man's that that's the whole idea and i'm not doing that puts them in a lower social class that sort of says hey no matter how good you are you might be a have a photographic memory your testimony is only worth half of that as a man's on the simple basis that you're a woman that is oppression well mark it's not oppression because it's what the reality is it's not a it's not in regards that me being oppressive to women but men and women who are both humans have the same rights as humans so they're equally humans but when it comes to male and female they're not equal to think that they're equal that goes against just basic observation that's like saying like you know an suv and a hatchback they're both cars so they're both equally cars but an suv and a hatchback are not equal in their features and their and their packages and what comes with them one has a little bit of a degree over the other one and that's it so the total package of male is not equal to the total package of females and a male has a little bit more favorite than a female just biologically mentally and spiritually part of the reason sorry just really quick part of the reason why you'll see all simers much more prevalent with women than men is because women live longer than men and all simers is directly correlated with age right so it's dementia right if women live longer than men you will see twice as many women you know or you'll see more significantly more women suffering from dementia and all simers because they live longer than men men die before they reach that no we don't agree we don't agree it's not a word she said i did i did hear what she said she said that men live longer therefore women women live longer women live longer women live longer and therefore that because that's their living longer they suffer more of a memory loss because men are not alive to suffer it but that's not true because i'm talking about the menopause menopause menopause menopause memory loss for menopause is not comparable to dementia or all simers it's not is that memory loss yes or no as the science says it's there's a story there's memory loss as you get older male or female but men postmenopausal women again we spend a third of our lives postmenopause and postmenopausal women are going out and achieving things every day no it's not saying that women it's just it's literally just a headache that says when getting alone there should be a second woman who can remind the other woman because as women get older they have they have less yeah excuse me sir they have less memory like it's not but that's not it doesn't say that it doesn't say about women specifically being older it only says women in general but god is considering that god is speaking the truth how do you know that how do you know that's what i've actually read the Quran you understand god is god is in the Quran does it specifically say about dementia or all simers no but god is clearly that god is clearly stating that women are more likely to suffer forgetting than men that's what the statement is so it's a stereotype statement yes there are edge cases that god created and put as tests for people and people who have more favor than other people so obviously not all women are equal there's women that are higher satchel people have more ability and more intellect than others but as a general statement women suffer with more memory issues than men that's the bottom line that's what god said we can't change that so so what if god wanted to say it was because of menopause or the Alzheimer's why didn't he put that in in the book because i'm giving you an apology like a reason why it does fit with the narrative but god has more than one reason yeah so god is a narrative i agree but but god in the Quran always gives general statements he's not going into the specific of each edge case and any other possibility that could could occur but he's saying it's a general statement yes he's a god he's god he should be able to do that yes he he did do that so that statement covers multiple cases yes it does there's no specificity within it like a god could have been specific and said hey if if a woman reaches this age and a mental faculty seem to be in decline then we don't we'll only allow them half as witness while those of acute you know intelligence can still bear witness just as much as a man but they didn't and that's not what he did like you're basically saying that god was somehow restricted from doing this and had to make blanket sweeping sort of you know misogynistic statements that there's no there's no reason why an all-powerful god would have had to do that no actually there's a lot of reasons why god chose to give us the enough the enough information that we need to live our lives because if he wanted he could give us the 600 books on just writing contracts but he gave us the enough information for us to handle ourselves as societies but for you to ask him for guys more detail on all that you're the one who's deluded in the first place so even yeah yeah but it's an oppressive society it's an oppressive society because they value women okay you're making rules for women based on a a small group of women who do not reflect the majority of women yes actually memory loss affects the majority of women as i said for multiple times because the majority of women goes through menopause it again the memory loss for menopause it is something scientifically proven it's it's first off not even comparable to dementia or Alzheimer's and secondly and secondly women post menopausal women are still in the workplace still functioning in a high level positions in the workplace are still um are still functioning society if anything it shows that menopause the memory loss associated with menopause still is not significant enough to interfere with their daily life and interfere with their daily work and a lot of these women are working in high powerful positions but the verse didn't say that star does that verse didn't say that women can't work and gain function if a woman can function past menopause and and be incredibly effective and this memory loss only affects her for a little bit then um for a little bit right so you said it her memory loss is affected even for x amount a little bit it's affected that's the yeah but again it's not the majority for life i do want to say we've been on this particular topic for a while yet so are there any other last topics that came up earlier in the debate that you guys would like to discuss before we go into the q and a because the q and a normally we would go into in about five to ten minutes yeah um i'd like to sort of uh Muhammad said sort of veiling about veiling of women it's safeguarding women from wanting and desiring this world and then he went on to say women should not want or desire this world um could you explain why women should not want or desire this world right because us as Muslims and people who believed in God in his message we believe that there's a better world and just like how all other religions that believe in the hereafter and we're God fearing people that consider the day of judgment part of that is not accepting this world or wanting to be part of this world because we're looking forward to the next world and me like you know my wife should know that my life purpose what are you part of this world i'm in this world as the christians even preach i'm in this world i'm not part of this world i'm here to make it better but i'm not here to collect material things or sit there for a corporate structure or to serve a government i'm here to serve God and make the world a better place in the name of God and i expect my wife to be on the same mission my wife isn't serving me my wife is serving God because i serve God and she herself is serving God and when she's raising her kids she's serving God so she wants to save protected so save herself and me help her save herself from all the temptations of life and all the things that the devil uses which is most likely or sorry which is premonitly or like primarily sexual deviance i'm going to protect her from that if she wants to be a sexual deviant she's out of my house and she can go do whatever she wants but at that point she turned away from her religion and left that's how it works we're here to show so why why not say people should not want or desire this world instead of women should not want or desire this world because that's what the client said the people the people don't want it so my wife is expecting me to do that so why not veil the men if you should not want or desire do have clothing requirements but you don't know those clothing and requirements are not anywhere extensive as because a woman's hair is essentially different view differently than a man's hair that like that's the argument why because women don't sexualize your hair but men's men are attracted to women you think yeah are you attracted to a are you attracted to a bald woman you've you've not yes actually i have been Natalie Pullman did an amazing job in David Vendetta okay attractive actually no she's an attractive woman but it doesn't you're not specifically she's better with hair now that's the point the average person i'm not sure that's for market look i would argue that women sexualize hair too and uh and if that is the if that is the case then maybe men should be veiled too um the the requirements on women for dress code are are far more than there are any requirements on men for dress code okay so dress codes are oppression is what you're saying i think there's a disparity i'm not saying oppression but i think there is a disparity a vast disparity in the standards that women are given within islam and the standards that men are given well that's true but it's the same thing in western society how come i can go shirtless but you can't go shirtless i don't support that i think everyone should be so everyone should just be a nudist why have any rules right well i actually don't like to see men shirtless so you know i'm of the opposite yeah i'm i mean i'm not i'm not a huge fan either but i mean if you have a rule for one have a rule for other you know this this whole thing about you know society going crazy if we see these things it's just not true there's been many civilizations throughout the years that haven't broken down just because there is a display of flesh if you will on on display that hasn't happened this is just men exercising control and i've noticed the same while i'm looking at you've got very nice hair i'm sure you don't do it to be attractive to women or anything right because they don't think about hair at all um but yeah this whole idea is yeah i believe in equality for men and for women completely like why don't we treat why are men not treated the same as women is is the main question but there's guys scientifically scientifically here we go religiously yeah i'm sure there's lots of science here yeah yeah there's science science proof religiously what proof and in reality that men and women are not equal in gender roles okay so if i can if i can reply to this wait you can you can look up saloon to obar she literally talks about this she says that women are different than men and she literally has misogynist saying where the i will literally i will literally say i am the first person to say that men and women are different and that's okay men and women are biologically different that is fine but that should not restrict the ability of men or women to seek uh what they want in society and seek what they want for their lives um we shouldn't like these they're obviously common sense things right men are going to be on average stronger than women right they're going to be more capable of doing these hard labor jobs but that doesn't mean that we restrict the women from ever going into that job that doesn't mean that we um uh you know restrict um men from uh being more nurturing right um uh again and then i would say that um that women um you know may be sexualized based on their hair but men are too men are sexualized too we've seen it and and um and you know if we're going to hold one standard to to women we should hold the same standard to men no that's not true you can't why would you hold the same standard to men when the women are the ones who get abused when it comes to certain sex things yeah it's the rate is more against the women than the way the civilization works and is is uh done throughout societies is different like when the fact of the matter is women and men are just different and you guys admit that but you're just mad that there's more clothing required for women in a workplace i'm not even mad i'm not even mad right but women women and men they're different yes 100 but that doesn't mean that we create unfair requirements for one group and not for the other we we want to make sure that these requirements are fair right um we want to make sure we have protections in place for the for the weaker people in society the more vulnerable people in society right but those protections but those protections should not be ones that limit the autonomy of somebody else but the bill is protection yes exactly and many women talk about that many women talk about how the bill prevents them there's literally no women in western cultures and they say oh i'm treated better by western men so not just muslim men by western men is when i wear a ski mask that only shows my eyes and let me tell you guys i used to do this i used to wear a ski mask at night when i used to work at a really late night job i would when i would leave my job i put on a ski mask and it only showed my eyes right part of that was that i wanted to make sure everybody around me was scared of me so they didn't mess with me right um so i mean you know yeah i want to say something he's saying no one's saying that women can't wear this if they want to like you're saying oh well they some you know these women they want to wear that's fine if they want to wear it that's fine that's that's fine but what you're talking about and that you're rapidly galloping away from is you are prescribing what they wear whether they like it or not which is a different situation and we've seen the effect of some of these really oppressive systems of control in iran where they're currently having a full-scale revolt because of islam prescribing these these garments for them islam like any system says what you ought to do so it's saying it's best right just like stardust when she she realizes oh it's unsafe for women to walk home at night maybe i should dress a certain way she's making a proactive choice to dress and behave a certain way that would scare off people that's what exactly islam's saying they're saying oh if you want to be taken seriously as a person an individual and not a sexual object you should not dress here's the difference here's the difference right men and women both wear ski masks right but there is a gender difference in the way that that you will see women dressing you know based on these standards and islam and that in itself makes you a target if you if you only if you know that only women dress this way that makes you a target wait what like i can i can distinguish a women walking down the street whether she's dressed in an abaya or not like you it's easy to tell right yes but you know that how's that making people a target you know you know that only women wear a bias but it's very it's a proven fact that women that are wearing a bias and he dropped they get cat called a lot less than the people that don't so there's a little bit less deviance i'm not saying why is that why is that because they because they look well no it's because islam supports that women not wearing the prescribed dress are women that i'm talking about the west moral i'm talking about the west and to answer your point about iran okay like i come in the west i will say women in the west sorry i finished my point sorry go ahead so you about your point in iran okay so the only reason why these protests are happening is because iran is having a very difficult time with the states especially with what's going on in russia it's a politically driven protest the same way happened in libya in the same way it happened in syria and it's the same way happened in egypt these are political issues that has nothing to do with islam or the prescribed rule of islam but you want to go ahead and jump onto islamic phobia wagon that's happening i would like to share my screen and i could show you a picture uh just give me one second i want to show you a picture of exactly what's going on uh at a different time here so share a screen so masa amenie doesn't doesn't exist or no i'm masa amenie exists but she didn't die because of someone beating her so if you could see this is they're making the islam the the the person holding the quran smaller than the women they're showing the hair of the woman she they're showing her in heels that she's liberated from this man and what's she holding lenin so during the communist times and socialist time they targeted the women and they wanted to liberate the women of what she needed to do to safeguard herself because if you can corrupt the women you've corrupted the whole neighborhood and that's how it worked and this is why we try to protect our women from this type of mentality but now instead of communism and lenin being the devil it's actually the states and liberalism and westernism is the devil so it's the same mentality is just a different package because we already beat the first one we're gonna be liberalism i will say the difference between liberalism and a liberal society and an islamic society is that under a liberal society you can practice islam you can dress the way that you want part of one of the wait what before you laugh at me and before you laugh it off right the fundamental values of liberalism are individual liberty the ability to choose right and that gives you the ability if you would like to dress the way that you would like to dress go ahead and dress that way but under a religious society you do not get the ability to choose for yourself like this you have to follow specific things right and some of those are dress codes and those and why are we requiring women to dress a certain way because men are being predatory why are we punishing women for that it's because i do i give you a really good response that we do have to go to the q&a well and i'm sorry last point but in quebec they banned the hijab in government places so it's very liberal but not for the hijab well i think that you know they shouldn't have they shouldn't ban the hijab i will say that right but um at the same time i can see that if it's a if it's seen as a religious um uh you know piece of clothing right in kebec or in other countries where they're very anti-religion uh specifically and that this let me tell you anti-religion is different from secularism right if they're very anti-religion then um within government jobs they don't require they don't they don't allow people to wear crosses or star of davids either right they shouldn't if that's the case right but i'm talking secular liberal society allows for individual liberty so i got a question on that to you guys both then because it sounds like you're saying like oh you want the choice right so our drug laws like oppression because i don't have the choice to go do like heroin even though it's bad for me i want the choice though if not i'm being oppressed like because that's that's kind of what you're arguing you're saying that yeah like if the hijab protects if the hijab like the ski mask protected you then why are you finding it so much why is it because i know instagram that's hang on hang on hang on i want to address that i want to address that that's that's a false analogy because what we're saying is that if heroin is legal or illegal it should be illegal or legal for both men and women right that would be a better analogy whereas your sort of saying oh i want to go do her and i should be allowed to that no our example is a rule or a law or a prescription that only applies to women and not men and just to touch on something about what happened in iran um the the government actually signed a decree ibrahim ricey signed a decree restricting women's clothing and setting up sort of facial recognition for those not wearing the prescribed clothing so that's absolutely false i mean he he prescribed it himself he he he did an announcement on it i don't know where you get your information from muhammad i'll give you the last word muhammad and then we got to go to the qna right like i would have loved to touch the topic of polygamy like you're saying that men are allowed to have four wives but women aren't allowed to have four men's because like you know god is saying that a woman who was married she should after she gets divorced she should wait for three periods like three uh menstrual cycles and obviously it's not just to see if she's pregnant or not but those three menstrual cycles is to clean her uterus so that she doesn't have sexual diseases so if you want to have four men going into one lady that's how sexual diseases happen we are going to jump into the qna but do want to say a couple of quick housekeeping type things in particular first very important if you happen to be a muslim whether you be male or female and you would like to debate email us at moderndaydebateatgmail.com i'll put that in the live chat there's also a link in the description box if you happen to be a muslim and you'd like to debate on modern day debate we want to give everybody a fair shot so i'm going to put my email like i said which is really easy to remember modern day debate no hyphens at gmail.com i'll pin that to the top of the chat and like i said in the description box there's a link with kind of the vetting process that we use for having on new guests also very very important second housekeeping thing is in the live chat i put a poll this is would you cat call mark if you saw him walking down the sidewalk the majority or i should say plurality 36% said no sorry mark 33% did say yes though 24% said i'm a diluted soy boy and 5% voted i'm unsure so we also had to say we are in the works of setting up a debate with stardust youtube's favorite daughter my little sister the queen of controversy with daniel hakikachu on whether or not veiling is good for muslim women that's in the works we're still pending down the date but do want to let you know if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button you don't want to miss that one and last but not least we're going to jump into the q&a but then i do want to give tonight we're going to give a special thank you to the mods i'm going to name them in the post credit scene because we don't give them enough credit so we do appreciate our chat mods for keeping things you could say controlled chaos in the live chat but first want to say last but not least before we go into the q&a our guests are linked in the description actually as of right now our guests don't have to have a link like that's not a requirement some guests come on and they just love to debate they don't have a youtube channel at the moment but those of our guests who do namely mark and stardust are linked in the description box that includes at the podcast as we link our guests there as well and thank you very much for your patience we're going to jump into the q&a thanks for your questions folks this one coming in from bitter truth says hussein muhammad had slave girls which is the worst law that has been abolished but why was muhammad never a why did muhammad never abolish the slavery law against humanity let me know a better truth if i understood that right um so he's saying why did muhammad it sounds like he's asking why muhammad didn't just outlaw slavery i think that's it yep yeah there's so that's kind of like a debate like people argue that islam was on the path or you know a progressive progressively going to be outlawing slavery because there's actually a bunch of things about how it's actually rewarding to free slaves and that people should free slaves so um it was kind of just a process like at the time that you know we should go away also by the way there i have a feeling this is probably someone who's western so they're thinking like shadow slavery it's not the same thing like islamic slavery there was islamic slaves like in high government positions it's not the same as like shadow slavery where you're owned and working on a field in cotton like it's not american slavery at all so it's good slavery yeah it's just like for the time period yes yes it's the same mentality it's the same yeah this one coming in from do appreciate your question coffee mom i think this is for you muhammad and hussein said would you be happy if you were a muslim woman why or why would you not be happy or why or why not would you be happy do you want to go first muhammad well i thank god that he created me a man because that's a show me favor i'm blessing so that i maybe hopefully have a better chance of making the world a better place but uh but as long as i'm a muslim i don't care if i was a dog i'll be happy so a dog a woman a man a giraffe a bug a bee as long as i'm in the grace of my god and and his uh and his and his bountiful like his plentiful and his and his merciful giving i'm happy but it's why better to be a man right it's more favor of being a man that's usually how they go in this film i'm glad we can agree that that you know women are secondary to men it's not secondary i didn't say they're secondary when you're saying you're devaluing is you're taking the value of something and putting it lower but if the women's value is at a certain spot it doesn't mean i devalued her that's her spot in her position in society and in the family and the head of the household is a man and the head of the household i mean the head of the community is a man and that and that's how it goes if there are women that cut the job and are doing a good job then they have absolutely every right to do what they they must so that the makes the which makes the community a better place i can give you queen shiba as an example but you know you could see that how many kings have passed in the stories of the bible and in quran and how many queens have come it's just a small portion and those women had major favor from god but it doesn't mean that we're devaluing women we just know the value of women who's saying the chance to respond i think i think should go on about how you know i mean away i do want to i do want to just sorry we have so many questions we have to move quickly it's like you guys are fighting against reality it's just like on average that a man usually is in a higher position unfortunately right or no matter regardless what you want to do even sweeten they talk about this there's like women go to stem less despite all the work they want to make women go into stem they just don't so anyways um as a if i was a islamic woman i think like the best thing um especially in the west uh would be the like lack of being sexualized so um being actually the irony here is like actually being viewed as a human being which is a you know something unfortunately uh in the west i feel like you're just viewed as a sex object so i will say that regardless of what you wear when men will men will sexualize you there's uh there's something if it if it exists there is somebody who's made some perverted version of it on the internet so let's see we're so clear women will sexualize men as well just not the women don't do it is smoke it start they don't do it the same way that men do oh yeah really this one i think it's you're not in touch with reality mate this one coming in from thunder storms as i don't like sand it's coarse rough and irritating and it gets everywhere not like here here everything is soft and smooth quoting anakin skywalker yeah sure that's very nice copy mom thank you very much says globally women perform uh greater than 10 trillion a year in unpaid labor any thoughts well apparently that's equality to to my uh well that unpaid labor is stay at home moms you are not getting a compensated and also stay at home moms um just so you guys know there are studies that show stay at home moms are more likely to be depressed isolated and economically vulnerable but there's studies that i showed you that that the women that are unmarried in religious couples are more satisfied that's that's that shows that they're more depressed right well i don't know about i don't know about religious couples but stay at home moms are more likely to be depressed isolated and economically vulnerable that is what it says i mean you're desiring this world no wait even then mohammed that's not true there's tons of studies that show that women are happier at home and you know god bless them you know they're doing a great job they're gonna raise kids and you know their kids will turn out better statistically yeah but the disparity of um unpaid labor is more to do with our social um sort of the social implementation of women to be stay at home moms and women to be obligated to do cleaning and things that a man can do as well but it's just the woman socially has been had that obligation thrust upon mark it's not a social construct the biology came first there's literal data that shows that men men prefer not being a homemaker 86 percent of men who is the study is like would prefer being not a homemaker well more women they think it was like 70 something considered being a homemaker so like they wanted to be a homemaker biologically the drive for a woman was to be a homemaker and men don't want to do that so they chose yes okay but i gotta respond to that because that in no way says that it's not a social construct you've just basically said hey men don't want to be a homemaker more there's no nothing saying that's not a social construct of how we think about our society you've just basically said it said biology first he said yeah i said biology there's tons of data that show it neatly again it goes back to the i hate to do this but why why don't why don't i laid it out in my opening that there was so many questions we've got to move forward you know that women women want motherhood but stay at home women want motherhood stay at home motherhood enjoy doing this start us all right i hadn't even muted you yet but i appreciate you collaborate better true thank you very much says why islam present women's women as weaker don't have capability on decisions but some place women but some places women are smarter mohammed i think they're saying why does islam present women as weaker and that they don't have the capability to make decisions but some places women are smarter i don't know if they mean some places like in some abilities like their verbal abilities or if they mean some places like geographical places like it has to be the former so i think they're saying in some things like women have a small like there's a small difference where women are they have average higher than average scores than men and vice versa uh is that what you guys think that means that question i'm just gonna answer from what i understood um so when he's saying weaker i would like to understand more so and what he means by weaker or dates understand uh they mean by weaker because if it comes to physical things i'd rather have a bunch of men fight a war fighting to defend a country than a bunch of women okay i'm sorry because it's like you know scientifically men are more physically capable on the bell curve i'm not saying that not not all women are not physically capable but there are some women that are physically capable and then there's some jobs that are more tailored towards uh that a woman would do a better job than a man at that point yeah i would like to have my uh like the women in our community to take those jobs and to excel at them because it's needed for society and it's needed for community community so of course there's places where the woman shines and and devaluing a woman is taking her away from that position any responses this one coming in from do you appreciate your question mic mc says Muhammad where are any sources other than the Quran i follow the Quran that's the word of god so why would i need any other sources other than the source of god telling me who created this world how i should live brian w says answer this question instead of sidestepping or dismissing is why my question is why do you would not assimilate into our in all capitals culture instead of hanging archaic belief systems that denigrate women they're saying why don't you assimilate to be a western or at least non-muslim rather than these belief systems that denigrate women saying you want to go first or do you want to answer that um you can go first okay so i can from my own personal subjective experience because that's a subjective question i can see the degradation of the western community or the western society where the nucleus family is something of the past people are caring about only themselves and when then family breaks down the community breaks down the street breaks down the state breaks down and then eventually the whole country breaks down so adhering to the things that i learned in my traditions in my in my country is safeguarding me from whatever pain america is about to endure because of their own actions and deciding to go against what god has said which things that come with things that are pertaining like to a homosexuality empowering women and impressing the world for material gains so those are all things that are against things that we uh subscribe to as muslims um okay so as far as um what he's trying to say i don't think uh muslims actually they are throwing away um you know western values in a way i feel like they're actually living up to uh western values like the west used to operate in this exact same way so you know women were allowed to work like the people have this weird narrative that in the fifties women were all like changed their basement like cooking and cleaning when in reality 30 percent of women still worked it's just the majority of them chose not to work because they didn't need to and that's exactly how islamic countries want to operate as well because having a family is more important um you have western countries have declining birth rates while islam is actually thriving so i don't see how like the west throwing away their traditions ironically um is good when islam is actually living up to the same values they used to hold i mean the west just throws away their grandparents now into into is it uh homes it's like an abomination they don't even care for family if i can if i can uh the reason why birth rates are declining you will see this across the globe as a country gets more economically prosperous people have less children um so uh so as industrialization happens as people get more prosperous you can look throughout history people just have less children this is something that's happening not just in the west it's happening all over the globe as these countries get more prosperous um uh so yeah that's it really short and pithy mohammed no no no never mind it is it is a little in depth so this one from brian w says this losing their memory thing i think he's talking about women uh past menopause as you discuss mohammed is they say it's absurd older women tend to be sharper than men actually they say don't you find this hyper masculine viewpoint from islam out of step with society today please answer the question well i don't like care what you think because the science is saying something else so you're feeling in your emotions and this whole gearing towards what you feel is irrelevant when it comes to reality you got it this one coming in from jew appreciated troll nerds says quote unquote forgetfulness happens during the menopause transition but data shows that this goes away after the transition concludes women have better memory overall actually that's not what the report saying this thing that menopause after menopause is when the memory starts it's not during the time of menopause it's after menopause right there is a brief period post menopause where women suffer certain things they um on top of memory loss there's also mood swings you know um how about you show me like that i will tell you i let me just tell you you don't want me to show you the where i know this knowledge because it's embarrassing for you okay so secondly secondly yes a lot of these um things that happen um to women when they're going through menopause and post menopausal they go away after a while this one coming in from do appreciate it bitter truth says why does god compare women with donkeys muhammad where in the grand does god ever compare women to donkeys this is the problem with islamic folks they just make up a lot of things this one from thunderstorms says chat and panel what is the best brand of bacon i would say applegate do you even know do any of you guys know bacon brands i don't know bacon brands um i don't i tried like vegan bacon one time and i didn't really like it so i don't know bacon smells bad to me yeah it is really it's hangs in the air for so long bitter truth says scientifically no science in the quran but just discrimination of women's of women and incorrect science we'll give you a chance to respond to that muhammad and who's saying there's plenty of sciences that support the quran the quran is actually a fourth forerunner in whatever sciences discoveries you find because a lot of them do do adhere to the quran which increases in the miracle but the quran isn't supposed to be a book of science in the first place it's a way of thinking in a way of understanding the world and it doesn't impress women it gives women the rights that they deserve that they did not have before the quran and whatever additions you're adding is not is going to destroy your society not help it it might look like it's helping it but give it a long time like you know five ten years and then you can realize that your women are not having kids this one coming in from common cure says if god created all of nature why would he make it so that women lose their memory faster wouldn't that just contribute to stifling the synergy of the family household i have to answer that first of all yeah sure okay um so god god created the world in truth so everything is touching and connecting in ways and it's all proven by like repetitiveness and and and by sciences and logic so because of the way the program the god programmed the world the result is women at a certain age are gonna suffer memory loss and that's how it is so that everything else is in adherence it's not it's it's something that god knows when he created the world and he told us about it and he also gives uh the women the benefit of the doubt because he knows that it's happening so their judgment is a little easier than men because they have differences between men and male uh men and women this one coming in from samiel bass am i saying right by the way some here i don't i googled the word just to be sure it's not a bad word i don't think i don't think this is a swear word they say question to the suna followers am i saying that right suna suna is right thank you says would you wadri buhana i think this means like take the right hand to your wife before divorcing her if you fear rebellion according to koran 4 verse 34 okay yeah okay so this topic is a little there's a little bit more to it then you don't go right away in physically discipline of women that's oppressive at that point but there is something that people like to skip over in a verse a lot is when you're uh when you don't go to her in bed so you're you kind of like the first thing that you're cutting well the first thing you do is warn her the second thing you do is you start to uh desert her in bed and that speaks volumes on the differences between islamic civilization and islamic men and western men where the western men are there now there's like the simp and incel theories where they're begging the women like i'll do anything you want for you just so you know what like i can have maybe a little taste maybe you can like tease me that i'm gonna have sex but at the end of the day the woman is deciding like you know what i'm just gonna be nice to you for a little bit i'm gonna get what i want and then you get nothing from me but in islamic society is the opposite is when the man is refusing sex you could see the girl going into certain and moods and environments it's like hey no i need this i'm sorry please help me you see so that's where my skin masculinity is important and where masculinity and the way of life is supposed to be because that's how god created it so when the women is begging for the man that's a good community but when the man is chasing the women and he's begging the women's for sexual attention at that point the woman does whatever she wants and things go haywire so yeah personally i wouldn't go right away and hit my women uh sometimes you need to like hold her you need to like hold but i've never touched a women physically if there are legal conditions that where it is permissible it's not something that we do and and i haven't heard of anyone in my direct family or around us actually physically abusing women so and and the prophet would you eventually a little stick in that was the question would you eventually if that was you know no i would divorce i would divorce her i would be very harsh with her and i know a lot of people think that i'm angry in debates we guys haven't seen muhammad angry juicy to say the least yeah i wouldn't hit her i just divorced i'm in the west too so this one coming in from bitter truth says is the Quran a book of god or a book of muhammad i think they mean like the prophet muhammad not you muhammad they say muhammad are you willing to debate with me i think they're saying whether it was written by a man named muhammad who is not a prophet or was it truly inspired by god i don't know who the person is he can try to get in touch with me for a debate but let me answer this very quickly so god even calls the Torah which is the word of god the book of moses okay so this is how moses what was revealed to moses and how god chose to to guide the people during moses his time and with moses his book but it's still the word of god and it's still the book of god the Quran is the same thing it's the testimony of what prophet muhammad and that's why we their god says and that's why we brought the down the book to you o muhammad so you could judge between the people what god showed you so yes this is the testimony of prophet muhammad but it's the direct word of god prophet muhammad could not add or remove or change whatever was being revealed to him he said it but yeah so it's it's definitely the word of god and when you adhere to it you have such a better and fulfilling life so this one coming in from samiel base or bass this is question of followers of rasul ibn sharmut isn't to hourish a form of commanding the right and forbid the wrong unveiling equals fitna on the streets can one of you guys translate that for me i don't know what that means muhammad and who's saying i'm guessing you guys might be familiar i don't even rest unrest oh so he's saying unveiling is promoting fit unrest that's i'm i guess let me check on what fitna i'll google that means test like a religious test like a confusion in test oh okay but i don't even know the guy he's talking about right and and people don't consider that even before prophet muhammad girls were putting headscars in arabia daniel i think he should have a good debate on it really so yeah he did a really good debate on it juicy to say the least also want to give a quick shout out before we go to this next question i'm pinning it at the top of the chat if you have discord folks we don't talk about it very much i do want to give a direct plug for the discord it is linked at the top of the description box we encourage you to check it out let me jump into this next question this one is for you mark wow mark you've been waiting this whole time i know thinking is there going to be one for me well this is going to be a joke question isn't it i'm afraid so bubble goes on says oh bubbles says mark where is my million dollars that you owe me oh so this this was funny um he he bet a million dollars on the origin of dogs and says that i got it wrong so i am a million and then i bet him that um dogs were domesticated from wolves so he lost a million on that one so as far as i'm concerned we're square wow so bubbles doesn't think that we domesticated wolves to make dogs i don't know where he gets his information from but it's one of those really wacky ideas there's a long history of sort of wolf domestication through the human species and we've got clear records of it as well as they can breed i mean there's that as well you know you can breed a dog with a wolf so i i don't know where he gets information from but yeah you know juicy to say the least folks can you tell let me know in the chat can you tell i'm sick but want to say our guests are they're linked in the description box that's right Muhammad and Hussein don't currently have a link however if they do happen to have a link in the future i'll put it in there and mark and stardust are currently linked in the description box and then the clues at the at the podcast want to say a huge thank you to all of our guests it's been a true pleasure to have you Muhammad Hussein mark and stardust thanks for being with us tonight thank you for having us thank you thank you you guys juicy i really enjoyed this thank you so much i was very fun yeah i had a lot of fun too that was awesome with that i'm going to be back for a quick post credit scene and then i got to get to sleep so i want to say stick around we're going to give a huge thank you to our moderators we're going to let our guests go first but want to say thanks so much for hanging with us folks i will be back in about 10 to 12 seconds thanks very much and stick around ladies and gentlemen thanks so much for being with us let me load the new zoom window in the meantime i do want to say first want to give a huge thank you to our chat moderators they do a fantastic job for real they basically make sure that we're following terms of service we really can't no joke i think some people don't know this if our chat is so unruly if it's bad enough youtube actually can nail us for that i read that the other day in the terms of service from youtube we actually do have to keep our chat reasonable so if there was i don't need to name how bad it has to be but i gotta tell you we're thankful for our mods because they keep us within youtube terms of service and we're very open about the fact that we're like yeah we do follow youtube terms of service because youtube is the branch that we're kind of sitting on so to speak in other words if we all of a sudden violated youtube terms of service and they wanted to get rid of us we'd be in big trouble because youtube does so i mean youtube is a well oiled marketing machine they suggest our videos to people so much so let's go back to our mods i'm going to read out for the first time ever want to say thank you to our moderators this is the list that we have right here perfect one thanks so much dj batman thanks for being a mod perpetually annoyed thank you for being a mod a local another wisconsinite like me hannah anderson thanks for your support as a mod riley s thank you for your support as a mod as well as adam albilya we haven't seen adam in a while but we hope you're doing well adam thank you heat shield thanks for being a mod amanda thanks for being a mod as well as being a scout in the dallas fort worth area so we can find where we can do our conferences it's been super helpful general balls act thanks for your support as a mod frustrated atheist as well as let's farm side show nav brian sievens left amy newman randolph richardson sweet pea invisible ninja bruce wane luis barnett surgeon general mr p and lili aja we are very thankful for all of our mods so i want to say we do appreciate you guys but you're the unsung heroes for real you never really get very many things so we do really want to say we appreciate you thanks for doing all you do and in addition want to say thanks for being a channel member appreciate your support you guys thanks for doing that we have i see a lot of members in chat right now and we have so many people to thank for real the debaters are the life blood of the channel so one last thank you to our guests we really do appreciate them they make this channel fun they make it fun and lively and different you know if it's just me on here every night you're very sad channel want to say we also appreciate you in the live chat and you might be thinking jay is why well for one thing we appreciate all your support through things like hitting the like button it does help so thank you very much for hitting like we do appreciate that that helps our video rank more highly so let's say if someone goes on youtube here's what ranking means if someone goes on youtube and they type in islam debate well this debate will at least temporarily youtube kind of tests to see how a new video will do it will temporarily show for people and it'll rank pretty highly in terms of the search results it'll be one of the first things that people see in fact so it's not usually going to be number one it'll usually be like number four or five or something like that but whether it is number four or five or number ten is influenced by how many likes you give so we appreciate it when you hit like that does help us get more exposure on youtube as we are not ashamed we want to be real about the fact that we are on a mission i'm very serious about this our vision is to provide a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field whether they be muslim christian atheist you name it at modern day debate we believe that youtube deserves a better class of debate channel and we're going to give it to them in particular a neutral debate channel we take no stances we have no videos that are let's say an after show this is like oh man that atheist use these bad arguments or oh that muslim use these bad arguments we don't do that we want you to be able to say what you want in the comments at the end of a video in terms of who you thought was most persuasive or you could say whose arguments were strongest but we as a channel are saying hey we're just saying hey we want to get everybody a fair shot we aren't even going to put out any sort of you know pro christian or pro muslim or pro atheist videos like we're just hosting debates on this channel want to say my dear friends we have a couple of values we want to share with you because you might be wondering well what what exactly like tell me more we believe in freedom that people can say what they want we believe that our guests were free from their first breath and that's the way it should be that they should be able to make their case for islam or atheism or christianity and get a fair shot while doing it and that we're not going to turn them down and say oh that's too that's too controversial we're going to say hey we are willing to take the risk we will host the controversial ideas and that leads to our next value we believe in competition because a lot of people say jay is it's kind of dangerous if you host these controversial ideas or people it might be dangerous because maybe those people will bring some people over to their dangerous position but we would say we know very well that if you let a thousand flowers bloom if you let the arguments duke it out the best arguments will win the scientific literature actually does support this idea a lot of people they get preachy and whiny and they're like james uh james uh it's dangerous to host these controversial ideas mister these are the kinds of people that they wear their bike helmet all the time not just while they're riding their bike even when they're not even riding their bike these are the people that they just worry about everything very neurotic and very fun to be with you as you can imagine is we would say hey the research is very clear that from a consequentialist perspective i could say for example right off the top of my head i could name peer-reviewed research petty and cassiapo in 1986 the elaboration likelihood model would suggest the best arguments win out it's called the central road of persuasion it's the most logical or you can say it's the logical type of arguments that win out and i see people when they whine and complain in the live chat so for example i see like gg right now is you know you insult people you are not ethical is that they make these claims and then when i press them i say great well well you know you say that this is bad and modern day debate is you know bad because it's got these controversial people on and i press them sometimes i'll say hey well where's your where's your scientific research for your claims and so for example gg is a perfect example right now he goes okay we'll check it out and it's like okay well dude before making your claims in live chat about me being unethical for posting modern day debate why didn't you already check the peer-reviewed research like you're just admitting when you say like okay i'll check it out you're just admitting that you were just basically making these assertions that had no evidence behind them it's just you getting off basically doing this mental masturbation thinking that you're on the moral high horse and trying to judge people when you're that preachy it's like well you know hey just being preachy doesn't actually persuade people it lowers your credibility you need to have evidence when you come forward and make these claims so i mean gg no offense love you gg but i've got to tell you when you just come out and make assertions like that it's not persuasive it just blue it just lowers your credibility because i'm exposing you right now saying you have zero empirical evidence for this it's just you making bald-faced assertions to feel better about yourself in social psychology it's called downward social comparisons when people try to take the moral high horse position and try to say oh you know they're doing bad they're doing this dangerous thing and you're so predictable but want to say my dear friends the idea of competition the value there is that the cream will rise to the top there will be a natural selection of ideas if you will namely the best arguments will win out that's what the empirical evidence says because a lot of people say well james but what about what if one of the speakers maybe they have these dangerous ideas but you know they don't have the the most logical arguments but they're charismatic maybe they're funny or they're good-looking or whatever it is and that you know people are kind of duped into believing them based on these superficial things and say hey the research the empirical research that i just cited earlier shows that actually their arguments persuasive effect will be less intense and less long lasting compared to the logical arguments so the idea here is like i said we let a thousand flowers bloom we let the chips fall where they may the cream will rise to the top we believe in having a strong case rather than just making moral assertions so my dear friends we hope you feel welcome we want to say thanks for all of your support i am overwhelmed there is so much positive support of modern data bait so i know that i i like addressing the critics because it's fun because i i just am amazed that they're just assertions and i'm just so sad that i'm like wow i was like you know it's great to have evidence rather than just make assertions and then you know if i point that out then they're like oh okay well then i'll go get some evidence so that's what like gg in the chat right now is doing he just he went to go to google to try to quick find something that you can come up with after the fact after i already told him like hey bring some evidence like i can name peer reviewed sources off the top of my head off the top of my head but want to say this my dear friends we have so many positive people that support us so much and we are super grateful so many positive people are like hey james like we're pumped about the conference we're so pumped about the upcoming debates we are so grateful for you we are happy that you are here we want to say thank you for being so positive thank you for being a moderator for doing a great job thank you for being a channel member thank you for in addition one way of supporting the channel is just old school grassroots if you hit share and you share this video with somebody on let's say in a discord group in a twitter group maybe it's a facebook page that helps us big time because if i go when i share a modern day debate and then they say well james like james you're aren't you the person that started modern day debate like of course you'd say it's cool but if you as a third party share it with somebody it has a lot more credibility your testimony is weighted more heavily because they're like kind of like yeah it's kind of like a third party they're more objective so if they say it's good like yeah all right tell me more so you want to say thank you for all of your support and then we are excited though as i said we are we don't want to put out the links for like where you can buy tickets and stuff yet because this conference is on the cusp of being finalized but we're not you could say we're finalized on the date april 22nd and i'm going to show you let me find this right now i take the housekeeping page off debate con 3.1 you might be seeing well why is it called 3.1 this is a tremendous idea huge credit to bob 3.1 is for this purpose we normally have our debate conference where religion and political debates are the two topics we host and we've done it where we have one on a saturday and one on a sunday we've done it where we have both of them on the same day and they're interweaved so it's like one religion debate to start then one political debate and so on but in this case we said hey you know what let's you know we're trying out different things we're trying to figure out which model works best we said why don't we do a religion debates conference all religion debates in one day on april 22nd and then we will still have our political debates day but instead of it being immediately after we're going to do it maybe a month or two out so probably in june we'll do a day of nothing but political debates it'll be tremendous we're very excited about that it's going to be huge this first one we are absolutely excited about it is a huge star lineup i think that we're getting better at this because we're learning like kind of like who works best with what topics stuff like that so that's really cool in addition our tech is going to be significantly improved so in other words we have for example video and audio that are going to be so on point you're going to be able to see much better during the q and a because we're going to have a split screen that shows both the speakers and then another screen that shows the person asking the question and more importantly if you saw the last conference because our audio will admit there are things we've made mistakes on last time our audio was not good during the q and a we are going to have additional microphones we finally figured out the interface it's been a huge it's been a huge work task to figure out this audio interface i have you're going to be able to hear the speakers as well as the question asker who will have their own mic loosely speaking it's going to be a mic held by me or chris or bob and then we'll be basically holding it in front of the mouth of the person asking the question so that you can hear the question very clearly so we're really excited about that but i want to show you this one of the debates that's going to be there muslim versus christian daniel hooky gitchu versus mike jones these are two of the best debaters i think that modern day debate has on regularly it's going to be ginormous we are absolutely thrilled super excited so my dear friends i gotta say you don't want to miss this it's going to be gigantic we are going to have a crowdfund for this event more news on that as i get around to actually putting it together it's just been super busy so a little bit behind we'll have that out at least 30 days before the conference hopefully more like i don't know 40 trying to think of the date yeah so if i had one another eight days to do it that's very doable i could do that we just have to finalize the debate card that's the hard thing all but actually tonight during this debate i actually had an email come in so that one of the debates uh there were only two remaining that weren't fully booked one of those two is basically booked so that's good and then the last one has to be booked so but yeah we were very excited about that iron horse cracking dirty jokes in the live chat some things never change nasty guy all right you're going to jail iron horse but want to say thank you guys for being here want to say gg thanks for being here i know i give you a hard time but we love you that's why gg i'll tell you because gg you you hound me i see you oftentimes in the chat of like james this is dangerous sorry come on i'm just messing around with the voice but we don't block you though you know what i mean like we have people we have critics who are like james like this is dangerous oh the humanity for hosting someone we don't block them though even though it's like well it's like but james you disagree with them like they're against the vision it's like yeah but like if we're gonna be consistent at modern day debate like we said we're gonna give everybody their fair shot like we don't want to block people just because they disagree with us so i do want to say gg we hope you feel welcome even if you are constantly disagreeing thanks for being here and mon says james you're a good moderator because you're yourself and don't let others change that just because they don't like it keep up the good work thanks for that i appreciate that gg says thanks james no hate agreed gg no hate i love you thanks for being with us and uh it's important that we never block you and i don't think the mods whatever i don't think you're gonna have a mod go rogue and block you so uh i don't i don't say that with any worry that one would but yeah i just appreciate you you all being here surgeon or all thanks for being here says we love you buddy bro we're so close to a hundred thousand subscribers it is so crazy it really is each yield good to see you thank you guys for being here i appreciate you guys i love you guys you guys make this fun i got a rest i'm getting pooped out it's getting late and i'm uh i am a little bit ill so you know what the thing is i've got this like sickness where it's worse in the morning but it gets up it's bad at night it gets worse like it gets bad in the late evening i'm not bad i'm not even bad like not not too bad at all but then like oh man like i don't know i woke up last night what was it like two in the morning it was pretty bad my throat hurt it was just yeah i was like really just pretty painful to swallow and then the cough and then when i woke up at like uh seven this morning i think it was eight i it was still like that where it was like it was like man it's like i don't know what it is the symptoms like get uh worse depending on it on the time let's see birdie numbness as i like you james i and i also like Amy Newman thank you very much for your support and i also like Amy Newman we're grateful for all the guest mods you guys see ryan on the other night he's a new guest mod too we're training in new people because we do want to host more debates because we've got so many opportunities so many people are coming to us and they're saying hey can you host us and i'm like i don't i don't have the time to host everybody like i got i'm pretty behind myself on a lot of stuff but we are grateful that new guest mods have been stepping forward saying hey i would love to moderate so we're grateful for that we're excited about the future thanks for all of your support thanks for all your love we're excited to see you at the next one keep zipping off the reasonable from the unreasonable my dear friends we hope you have a great rest of your night and we will see you at the next debate if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button and as i mentioned if you haven't already find us on your favorite podcast app and follow us or subscribe to us there as well and that way you might be thinking like i don't know if i'd really enjoy listening to these debates on my podcast app you might actually it's worth a shot because if that were the case it's like well maybe you get a reminder or like a notification sent to you that says hey moderate debate just release a debate if you follow us or subscribe on your favorite podcast app right maybe you like it so want to say thanks for all your support love you guys keep zipping off the reasonable from the unreasonable and we'll see you at the next one