 This is an OGM call Thursday call today, July 22nd, 27th, 2023, Jerry is in Geneva doing some facilitation. So we're on a different zoom. And maybe not everybody will find us. Put it in the right place. Not everybody will look. I have to leave after an hour. Just in case I disappear. Well, not such as well. So I just want to follow up Stacy on your little comment about you're happy I'm taking care of myself. The one thing that's really happened which I was surprised. I basically got on a diet of just reading as many women philosophers, political theorists, poets. I just basically have stopped reading all this expository material from men. Not that it's bad. But my experience is different. And I'm actually really enjoying the, the tone and the kind of different perspective on. You know, some of the same issues and, you know, and some of the, I'm meeting a woman Martha Nisbaum who's a philosopher, who's written about emotions, among other things. You know, so she's pretty much a heavyweight in the philosophy world. It's like super just, you know, so I'm like, yay, yay, yay me. That's really more of that. Can you rattle off a couple more folks we should check out. So I just came across Wendy Brown, who has just published her book that she wrote based on some lecture she gave a couple of years ago, called nihilistic times I'll put some references in the chat. Basically, she has been teaching for, you know, a couple of decades, but she talks about in her understanding how to make sense, use philosophy and stuff is to read with people so that apparently there are a couple of lectures that she never gave presented his life about science as a vocation and I can't remember the other offhand. And she's been reading these with herself and students. And there's a couple of lectures on how actually to read older, you know, more stylish writers read with them. And be able to make use of their thinking, currently without, you know, getting sidetracked. She was interviewed in a little podcast about this book. And it was interesting, you know, because she said no labor was quite conservative he didn't really care about public education he wasn't interested in any of that. On the other hand, yes I'm interested in things generative things to say that are worth, you know, thinking about. And then something that Carmichael, I found in his garden world book was Margaret Shabas, shabas, shabas and economist who wrote a very, very interesting book that I got second hand that talks about how this idea we have of the economy. Oh, there's, let's talk about the economy. Well, you know, when the beginnings after the Enlightenment when people are trying to understand natural philosophy. There wasn't any kind of an idea. There wasn't a thing called the economy. So it's very interesting about what concepts and categories we've invented. And, you know, so that's some of what I'm getting from the reading son. It's a little bit of a critical and well for me a lot of fun, also educational and, you know, unhook some of those other neuronal, you know, pathways. Don't think like that anymore bill. Think like this. I love that bill. What I love the most is what you mentioned about reading together, because I think one of the most important aspects of that is when an idea comes out. It doesn't get stopped in one direction by one person because anybody that's there hears it and can take the piece of what they need. You know, that's the way that idea with them. So in a way, like the problem that we have with time and everybody being at a different point in time or having, you know, their history is altered by time. It's sort of corrects for that a little bit. I don't know if I'm making the idea clear, but in reading together it's like hearing a song. They hear something different and know for themselves which part they need to develop their thoughts. Does that make any sense? Yes, and I'd like to be in situations where one can like kind of bounce those associations off one another. Right. Because sometimes I think pretty, you know, I go off on tangents and my wife is kind enough to point out, well, that doesn't make any sense. So it's like, yeah, you're right about that. You know, so, but so it's nice actually to, I'm really kind of a fan of a little bit of free association. Like what is the first thing that comes into your mind, my mind. Sometimes I write it down and sometimes it, you know, seems to be of value to pursue it. Sometimes it's just like, well, you know, that's a good one to just let just let that idea go. Right. So I would, but there's this Wendy Brown book about learning how to read with an already established, you know, like she's reading Max Weber because she thought these lectures just happened to be about his time but also can be about our time. So, so yes, I guess it's a yes, I mean, yes. Well, I'm glad it's making you feel good. At the very least. Yeah. Welcome folks, you're catching the tail end of discussion that Stacy and bill had bill was saying how he's enjoyed taking a break from expository material from men, not that it's bad and going on a diet of reading women philosophers and political theorists. Thanks for all that said, I appreciate that. Yeah, I'll try and put a couple of the, I don't want to run away to my desk and my head sort of old, you know, I'll have to kill a Bluetooth programmer so I don't really want to do that. I'll try and put those stuff in the chat. My plan was not to facilitate or moderate I can facilitate a tiny bit but I'm going to kind of rely on the room to facilitate y'all self. So, I've been thinking about how as climate issues become more public and there's more anxious public discussion. And that will actually get used a lot more by people to figure out what the heck is going on in their neighborhood or in the world. The result is a shift of the public realm from physical objects in the nation state to a worldwide network, which raises all sorts of interesting possibilities of new forms of governance and the thought. Tangent. I read something in the media this morning, that if the Republicans gain control, it will dismantle all efforts about climate change. You can't make it. I couldn't. What was that. I said, I just read something or media this morning that Republicans regain power of Congress and the presidency they will dismantle all climate change efforts. I've kind of seen they're doing a little bit. I didn't read it but I saw a headline, Republicans want to plant one trillion trees. I think. I don't know the whole thing is weird. I stood I think you might be on the wrong mic. It sounds like you're booming and distant a little. Thank you, I will check. Doug, I really like your, your thought and it feels like something that's kind of been happening for a while I think, you know, physicalness and things like the economy and and political spheres and stuff like that they're going to continue to have a lot of strength. But, but a thing that you said that we're getting digit, you know, digital. The way I kind of ended up hearing it was we have a digital public sphere or something like that. And I was reflecting this morning I was on blue sky not everybody's on blue sky yet because it's still invite only, but there are more and more artists, visual artists, kind of trickling over from, from Twitter and it was, it was something that I could kind of reflect on. There was a post. I like, I'm not a visual artist, but I love seeing visual art so I follow a lot of, I have followed a lot of some Twitter, and now I'm not really on Twitter and now I'm on blue sky master fun. The, the whole Twitter thing and musk and acts and all that it's hit artists really hard. A lot of them have built their, their business for 10 years, you know, 510 years. And everything they do their whole professional life is based around Twitter, and some of them are now leaving and they're fed up with it and don't want to do the Twitter thing anymore with Mr musk. And it's, it's difficult it's, it's a real, you know, it's like getting kicked out of your, your, your office in your home all at once. It's amazing. I haven't been to the normal GM and months. Good to see you. Not that this is a normal GM. It's just in a different Jerry list. I was thinking about what, what Doug was saying, and, and I think he told you followed it, talking about public sphere. And the kind of obviating of nation states toward a sort of horizontal governance does seem like hesitate to use the word market, you know, sort of a force that will that will. I mean, there's some, there's some momentum there that I don't think people will really identify for a while. But building tools to facilitate it, I think is going to be tough because I don't think it's going to happen and, you know, it necessitates. There being things that are not walled gardens, because, you know, just as governance has sort of has sort of pressed against the borders of nation states. Public governance will press against the borders of, of platforms and, and, you know, groupings. And how do we permeate those involves, you know, common standards, and maybe their activity pubs, but, but, but something, you know, in the way that that email doesn't have. So, you know, we have to have appropriately bordered. Well, borders. I'm going to travel past borders. So, figuring out how to do that with digital spaces. I think is the question. Solve it. Are we just saying what's on our minds is I'm not clear what our protocol is today. Dude sees the power. Well, it's 101 degrees Fahrenheit off the coast of Florida in the ocean. And I don't know if people saw yesterday, you know, nature put out a paper saying the Gulf Stream current, which is part of the entire ocean conveyor current could collapse anytime between 2025 and 2095 with an estimate of 2050. And that I've really severe repercussions around the world because it will dramatically change all the climate. There will be no climate stability anywhere. We could have, you know, all kinds of wild shit happening. So, I'm just finding the climate news, which has been in the background for a long time is now foreground in a way that's really frightening. And, you know, I'm seeing some headlines, but I'm not hearing a lot of people talk about it. And I'm just, it's that's just what's present for me right now is, is how to be. How to sit here and enjoy my life, which is really good, you know, I'm personally I'm doing well, I'm okay, but I look at what's happening on the planet with increasing horror and I don't want to act out of just sense of urgency, you know, we need to be thoughtful about this but I'm not seeing. I'm looking at the politics and leadership that's occurring. And I'm just not seeing what, what I would expect humanity to come up with in order to survive. So, I'm having a moment where the horizon is closing in and rapidly in a very dark and dangerous way. And that's what's up with me. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll pick up briefly on that and I hope my mic is adjusted now. That's better. And it's amazing that few if any quote leaders are responding to that scientific news. And so, you know, I have the same reaction and, you know, underneath, you know, having been aware for such a long time. And I guess, maybe even a little guilt for not taking more of an activist role. You know, in, in, in all of this. This is a governmental response. I mean, it's just so congruent with the notion that they're not doing anything that that, you know, that there's no political will there to take action. Yeah, I just wanted to kind of validate that I laugh sometimes, because it's almost easier to do that than to cry. I don't have any plan for what we would want leadership to actually do, say shift from will to action, but what action, there's nothing they can think of to do that makes any sense. I just got back from a couple of months in the Balkans, talking to people there. And what struck me was not quite a consensus but in that direction that people are saying, look, it's all going to fall apart, but don't try and change it now because you'll make it fall apart faster. And Doug, is there any sense of quote planning, or when things do fall apart. No. And part of it is of course that one can't put a time on when things fall apart. So it's hard to do a plan. It's hard in my own personal life. You know, where I go is to wonder, am I going to be still alive and and tilting at windows, you know, when things fall apart or not. You know, and sometimes I wish, well, perhaps I'll die first. And sometimes I wish I'm here ready to serve. When things do break down. I have to jump ahead a little. My emotional reaction to all this was to paint a painting, which made me feel good. But the painting is terrible. It shows a big red brick building with a large entranceway and a long line of people lined up to go in that entrance. And there's a sign outside that says waiting 15 minutes. There's a big bronze plaque, which says what the building is federal suicide center. Well, I came in late but I get the mood. I came in the middle of Ken or late in Ken share I didn't know we were talking about climate or fascism or what but there are certain certainly plenty that shoes from. I don't know if people follow Tom Hartman. But he had a post this morning, weaving together the stories of the, the, the possible collapse of the MOC. And then connecting that with the class rate hypothesis, it's been called the class rate gun, which is a speculation about the rapid release of methane stores from the sea floor. Which then, you know, this, what I got from it on a very quick scan this morning is a reminder that climate destabilization is not a linear process. And there can be a cascade of things that moves extremely quickly. You know, not at the scale of geologic time but political time or personal time. And my immediate reaction of Stuart, kind of with reference what you said, I, you know, I've been, I have been an activist on this for a long time. And, and have not been a prepper. You know, it's certainly not a, not an extinction. It's, it's all doing, let's give up and prep, but, and I've had some of the sentiment that you talked about of, you know, why my camera is not working but anyway, you know, I'm not going to be alive to see the worst of it. But I have people I love who are young, you know, and who will. But my reaction this morning was very personal of, you know, my wife and I may not be alive to see the worst but we may be alive to see some of it and we're not prepared. Whether it's, you know, I mean the fires we've been living with whether it's water availability or food supplies, or financial collapse all those other measures and so, you know, I woke up this morning into in addition to the activism which I will not stop until they carry me out of your feet first. It's time for some personal care and some personal planning. That said, I want to, I want to comment Doug on the city on what you said. You and I have batted back and forth about this a few times but what I'm, what I'm observing today. Is that you're, you may be asking the wrong question, or not the most powerful or interesting questions. You, you often say that nobody's planning that there are no plans. And from my perspective, there are a lot of people planning and there are a lot of plants. I mean, I'm relevant has been issuing plans for 50 years. Some of them have been taken up some of them have not. They're watched in plans what we are not a watching is effective implementation of those plans or the power to compel those plans to be implemented and, you know, if the political landscape turns wrong, even less possibility there so I think the question is not, what are the plans, but how do we the plans moved into action. We are in the grips of a fossil industry that is committed to writing, you know, to profiting as much as possible as we ride the slide down to destruction. You know, so the plans that we need are not just energy transition and industrial transformation and perhaps you know economic and societal transformation and so forth. How do we get those into motion. How do we effectively organize the political and cultural forces to move plans forward. I think it's a very different question and to my perspective a more fruitful one right now. You know, we, we, in addition to all the climate planning, we sure as hell better with the next election in this country. You know, what are the plans to do that are they good enough are the effective rather likely to work what are we doing to do that are we mobilize somebody posted a pie diagram yesterday that basically was like, I think the numbers exactly that was like, you know, 81 million votes for Biden and 79 million votes for Trump, and 111 million votes that nobody voted. So I'm interested in a plan for getting, you know, 10 or 20 million of those people voting and voting Democrat, so that we don't flip into a fascist United States in 17 months or whatever the count is. Anyway, I'm done for the moment. This might turn out to be my most uncomfortable moment ever in these zoom calls but I'm going to go for it, especially because of how Bill started out talking about how he was reading all these female voices. In. Gil, did you want to. Okay, in being on a lot of these calls and in particular some other calls. One of the things that I want to point out is that when I see a lot of men who are getting together with solutions. The one thing that I notice is when there's a disagreement. And trying to take the person's idea and assess whether or not it would stop other people's progress. In which case I could see pushing back on it. They usually fight and try to really it's sort of like the person has to defend their ideas in a way that's not necessarily constructive. That's not designed to help it make to help make it fit into other people's plans so that there can be coordination. It's usually done in a way to shut down that person's ideas. And I think that the reason I'm saying it even though this is really uncomfortable I don't know if you could see my voice, you know hear my voice shaking. It will be so important for many of you to start listening to some of these people that are working on ideas that you like their ideas. But there's something you don't like and what I suggest is, if you have a way that you think you can make them better. Go for it and say it, say maybe that would work. If we do this, and that's a new way to explore thought, but to just shut the person down and keep telling them why it won't work when you don't have an alternative is really not helpful. And I hope some of you will hear that. And thank you might go ahead. There's no moderator. I don't know if we're still doing the 20 seconds of contemplation so that we all let it sink in. I think you said about five different things that I wanted to sink in, particularly about hearing different voices not just non male voices but non upper middle class upper class American viewpoints. I went to MIT for grad school, and when people from other universities came to give presentations, often because they were being considered for a job at MIT. It was like gladiatorial combat, you know, people came in and, you know, almost from the first three minutes after they presented their overall thesis and their technique. People were jumping on them and attacking it. And I think, I think that can be very healthy. If you have colliding ideas, both of which are somewhat wrong that leads to a third idea that might be more right. But the original costs of doing that are often pretty high and not not acknowledged. A friend of mine, John Wolpert, W O L P E R T, who I worked with when I was at IBM is coming out with a book in a few weeks called the two but rule. The basic thesis is that most conversations are but conversations, B U T. Somebody says something. And someone says, but but you know of course that won't work. And his thesis is that you do have to say that you have to say, but that's not the best way to do it or but that's not going to work. And then you immediately follow it with what you said. But let's explore why you want to do that and how we can do it better. So I wholly endorse what you're saying there. I worry more right now though that we're all in the no but rule we're not even debating solutions to global warming where we're just, oh my God it's terrible. Oh my God I'm depressed. Oh my God the political systems frozen. And, and we're just not, we're not moving forward as fast as we need to and it is it is clearly, clearly crisis mode now. Oh, just, just one last comment. I was late because we were having our Carnegie endowment senior staff meeting we have a whole world of researchers who come together for an hour and 15 minutes every month. And our special one of our special featured researchers who just joined us is named Jamie Huang, kwong. And she's just done fascinating work on how climate change will affect our nuclear deterrence. So she actually combined two of the overarching themes that people here at Carnegie are working on. And I think it's going to wake up a lot of people who worry about military issues, because the flooding that's going to make some of our naval stations and our naval submarine bases in our operable. The problems that we might have with some of our our land based missiles which are in floodplains that are being flooded a lot more. And it really was a fascinating conversation. So that that is my hope is that we're going to start getting everybody to understand how this impacts them and not just having a lot of stories about people and Somalia who are already living on the edge. My favorite story is how all the wealthy CEOs and the fossil fuel business who live in Texas and go skiing in Colorado are discovering that they're going to need oxygen to get up to the snow because you're not going to have you're going to ski resorts at 11,000 feet because that's the only place you'll be able to have snow long enough to go skiing. So that leads to mind about that, sadly, is that, you know, for the, for the excellent skiers. It'll be, oh great, you know, we have to have expensive equipment now, and we'll, you know, all banter about what the best one is, but it'll be expensive and it'll keep all the riff off, wrap off the steep slopes. Yeah, we'll have it all to ourselves. Sad, in fact, that's the mind. Sadly, true. I posted a piece of the day about the Hollywood strike. And, you know, there's, I posted with you a gem list if you want to find it, but one of the things the industry is saying is we want to have them come in for one day, pay them scale. And then we're going to scan them and have access to that scan for the in perpetuity and they will get no residuals will be nothing. And the actress like screw you man that's that's going to screw us over that's totally bullshit. There's a studio executive who in 2021 was paid $227 million in compensation for the year, telling the people, we can't afford at the industries and a downturn. So you have to suck it up and eat, you know, just tough. And some accounting firm did an estimate that said the demands of the actors would amount to about $650 million per year, which is what this man has earned in compensation for the last five years. And he's telling people we can't afford it. We can't afford you we can only afford V. So I'm wondering if we might starting to be get close to a tipping point where people are going to say, I'm not going to eat cake, get your Marie if you're in the Marie Antoinette costume expect to lose your head here. We're tired of billionaires telling us what to do we cannot afford billionaires when people when the whole planet's burning. It's no time for billionaires. I just wanted to say but that's what came up when you talked about that. What I actually wanted to say was, I hear this thing that's been hearing I've been hearing for a long time going back to when Reagan was in office as you know, we're going to bomb Russia it starts in 10 seconds or whatever right this idea that if there was a an existential threat from outside of humanity like aliens, you know, or a meteor that that we would actually come together and and make the changes and I don't honestly believe that anymore. I used to believe that, but COVID pretty much disabused me that notion, you know, this was an existential threat and there was a an industry ready to mobilize people to say no it's all bullshit. And the same thing with climate we have, we have trillion dollar industries who are vested in we're not going to acknowledge the challenge of climate change the GOP platform for 2024 calls for rolling back all of the money that that was in the inflation reduction act and yeah don't look up go and, you know, it's like they want more fossil fuel burning so I have a question maybe some of the somebody in this in this room is smart enough to answer and help us think it through of what do you do when when there's all of this misinformation disinformation that serves those who are benefiting and screws over everybody else which is 99.99.99% of the planet. You know, how do you counter that what's the key to move, you know, I don't want to make others and enemies, when I look at large corporations I've worked in large corporations, they're not monolithic there's lots of good people inside of them, but they're inside of an ideology that is actually destroying the basis for our life, you know, it's converting ecosystems into dollars with the terrible results. And so, what's the answer how do we, you know, how do we work with those people to awaken them and lighten them and if they refuse. What's the alternative, you know, they're the ones with their, their hands on the levers of power. How do we get that back how do you rest the power back so that the people waiting to be born. We'll have a chance to say we're coming in here and we appreciate the what you're doing as opposed to we're going to curse your name for generations to come. I did post earlier. There's Marjorie Kelly, the democracy called collaborative and first book I had seen of hers was divine right of capital which mean, which need to move from the political addressing a political aristocracy which is what our framers tried to do. I mean people talk about some of the stuff I mean, they try to impose modernism on the founders and stuff they were trying to break away from the divine right of kings they wanted to have us. We could have a stable form of government that would would not it could. We could have a peaceful transfer of power or something what happened January 6 is about the most fundamental a front you could have to the framers of the Constitution. There's some amazing other books and she's got one that's just going to be coming out on wealth supremacy and stuff so I'll be curious to take a look at that. I mean, with some of the other stuff I've been, I brought it up several times and I've been. I had it pop up on a Facebook memory like from 2011 I think it was about. There's a guy Peter elbow who wrote a book or an essay about the believing game. And so I mean it's the kind of gets to some of the things Stacy was talking about. And the group that Stacy and Doug be is then I tried to bring that up as a topic and was looking to connect it to Edward to bonus six thinking hats, thinking that one make a connection that this believing game is kind of the yellow hat thinking. And so can we. The science, the hegemony of the science is the black hat and talk about critical thinking it's just tearing things apart. Some of Peter elbows things he talks about careful and we're missing the doubting game we're missing half. I mean, I'd like to be able to see. I've been trying to see if I can find a group of people who are certified and and and facilitating the six thinking hats method and can we can get could we look to engage that because the believing games about seeking validity and things you don't agree with. And so, I guess, to your friend might, I would volume volume to is from but square to. Yes, I guess I'll leave it there for now. It's blurry gal we couldn't say it. It's for Carl it's the album for six thinking hats. Yeah, happy to give to anybody who'd like it. Yeah. So I wanted to punctuate what what's Stacy said. And it's interesting that I'm, I, I often find myself, the only male in a group of females and the conversations are very, very different. There's much more natural collaboration and concern for relationships. Just historically, you know, how we've tended to resolve conflict, you know, I think, you know, cavemen, you know, would whack each other over the head with a with a with a tree trunk or whatever at least have that's how it's depicted but it's not a bad metaphor. And then, and then there was justing when people went to court, which was the nobleman's prerogative and the local nobleman. Save things. And then, you know, that moved into civil courts which are not civil at all for dealing with disputes. And then we had this movement called alternative dispute resolution. I had a laugh once when somebody was advocating for how to be a good mediation advocate, which is an oxymoron, because if you're an advocate you're trying to win as opposed to, you know, listen to ideas and come up with useful solutions. In 1993, I published an article in the San Francisco bar journal called I'm silver foxes in the art of resolution. And in some ways it articulated my ideal of some wise lawyers that I saw that we're really where in some ways we all need to be right now, in terms of educating and shifting internal mindsets and systems about how we've been dealing to think by the context we live in. And a lot of that is the argument that we see in the media all the time. It's oppositional. It's not a wise discussion, trying to get to the bottom line of some form of a resolution and some agreement about action into the future that we might take. And therein lies the great challenge and how to change our thinking. In some ways it very much ties into what Ken was talking about good people working in large systems. Systems drive things. Culture drives things my dear friend Alan brisken is working on a book about fields and how sometimes people are not even doing their own thinking but they're just a product of the. The, the field that we're in. And so how do you do it it's it's one of the things that I've been kind of noodling with, and we have more, more solutions than we could possibly look at I mean a lot of those have been raised here you know the bonus thinking is a great great, you know, is a is a is a great piece. Some of the other consultants that have been talked about. I saw. Barbenheimer last weekend. I got to both. Order. I saw Barbie, I saw Barbie first. Okay. Okay. And the next night I saw I had already gotten tickets to Oppenheimer. It was a last minute decision. And, and one of the things that that really struck me was that the incredible incredible power of the media. When you talk about creating, you know, levels of mass transformation. I mean in some ways you know Barbie was a beautiful pink thing, but it wasn't a kids movie, because it really talked about. You know the role models that we have been forced into. And the idea in some ways, you know, Barbie being the metaphor of being dead, and not kind of waking up as as tears poured down the idea of dining dying, but it was a beautiful picture in terms of transformative capacity in the message that it delivered. Oppenheimer was just an incredible tour de force in terms of a movie, and the messages that that that it delivered, you know, my favorite piece was the little dialogue between Oppenheimer and Einstein about whether or not that they've unleashed the, you know, the end of the world, where the beginning of the end of the world. Just some random musings. I appreciate the tone and quality of the conversation. I think we actually are really listening to each other. So thank you. Maybe it's the 15 second rule that forces us to make what we just heard. Thank you for those musings. I had a couple musings as well and going back to Ken's incredibly good question which is, you know, what do we do when the whole of society is a drowning and disinformation, whether it's climate change, or politics, or the future of technology I've never, at least here in Washington. I've never been more dismayed and depressed about the quality of the information that is circulating. My old joke when I worked on the hill was that you have some true geniuses, particularly in the Senate, who are able to juggle 50 issues at a time and operate in a world where one third of the data they get is actually right. One third of the data they get is half right, and one third of the data and suggestions is completely bogus. And there are 40,000 registered lobbyists whose job it is to provide all that bogus information and options. So we're saying that today rather than in 1990 I think that the numbers would probably be 10% right, 10% half right, 90% 80% totally bogus. And it's, it's, it's, I don't know how we deal with it. I've seen a lot of attempts on Twitter to correct Robert F Kennedy junior. He's going on national cable news, and being interviewed by the top journalists, and just babbling. And whether it's COVID or NATO and Ukraine, or the state of the economy, I mean he just is completely wrong, verifiably wrong often three times in one sentence. It reminds me of trumpet is worst. And yet you can't correct it because every time you try to correct it you repeat his fallacy and some people think okay well it must be a real opinion because people are engaging with him. The only thing I think might help is what I put in the chat. One of the things that we have to somehow counteract the mass media, and maybe, maybe convince people to stop watching television, and to start listening to their friends. Unfortunately, some of their friends are getting their information from mass media and Shane hot Hannity and the like, or from the worst kind of websites. An impact that comes from that that one on one, and I saw it with my, my father who's 88 now. I mean he became a mega Republican, rather than a liberal Republican which is what I was raised to be in Seattle in the 50 years ago. Because he would go to this breakfast meeting every week with his friends who were all watching Fox News and listening to Rush Limbaugh and if you weren't listening to those sources then you weren't cool, or at least you weren't engaged enough in the conversation. And the fact that all of these people who we had known for 40 years were sort of validating these strange ideas and total fabrications and lies gave him permission to believe this crap. And it became very sad about 15 years ago I just could no longer have a discussion about politics and so we talked about sports or we talked about his career as an aeronautical engineer. We talked about physics, but we couldn't talk about climate change even though I worked for Al Gore for nine years on those issues and have a PhD in her science, you know, he, he heard it from Rush Limbaugh that those scientists are just in it for the money. And that's all he needed to know. So I hope somebody else has a better answer to this stuff. It's, it's not information it's not disinformation it's not propaganda. It's cognitive warfare. This is about getting in the brains of people. And here at Carnegie we have a whole team. It's not called propaganda and disinformation it's called PCIO partnership for counting, countering influence operations. And we're focusing on the influence of opinion and the influence and damage to people's ability to think. They are doing some of the best work I've seen by by building a network of the best researchers, trying to understand the impact of this stuff. Thank you. Just jump in for a quick second Doug. Anybody here know what Rush Limbaugh's four pillars of deception are. Rush Limbaugh's four pillars of deception is you can't trust anything that comes from the government, media, science or universities. And he repeated that for 25 years you can't trust government, media, science or universities and I think that's a huge part of why we have the challenge we have because there's so many who believed him that if it's coming from any one of those sources, it's not valid it's not believable it's not it's not credible. And you said all that from from a media platform. Of course. Yes, because don't look at the man behind the curtain pain no attention behind the curtain just look at the big scary face. Okay, you put your, your muted Doug to disconnect from the current tenor a little bit. There was a documentary on Netflix that I saw recently called the unknown cave of bones. I don't know whether any of you have seen it. It's a story of some archaeologists in Africa, discovering a new hominem species they called homo lady. And what they discovered in the series of caves. I don't want to ruin the story so I, I'm not going to tell you the details of the, of the series of discoveries they made, but what they discovered in short was a species of our evolutionary ancestors who were 100 pounds and had brains the size of an orange walked upright. Based on their skeletons were clearly walkers but also tree climbers, and they had enough intelligence and culture to bury their dad and to use tools and to create marks in stone in these caves on the walls. Existed give or take 250,000 years ago. Well, well, well before homo sapiens and the ender thoughts. And they also had mastered the use of fire. All three of those things were things that the field of anthropology of archaeology before these discoveries believed were impossible, because only hoping homo sapiens. They exhibited that level of sophistication in terms of what's connoted by a group bearing their dad. And I recommend it just because it was profoundly and emotionally affecting. It was not sensationalized or fictionalized it was just laying out what they found, but it made these creatures 250,000 years ago. relatable, and not them mirroring us but us descending from them. And the indigenous world today have a whole bunch of stuff over Western civilization, and they're knowing on a fully embodied basis. They're aware of the reality in the world and live on and the interconnectedness of it all, and the emotional water dimensions, the earth, grounded mess, energetic dimensions of existence of us as beings that are substantially missing from our civilized developed capitalist world. They are extremely powerful in their affect on human beings. And Einstein, you know, said you can't fix what you're experiencing the same thinking that created it. I'm sure that that we can fix what ails us as a species with thinking with solutions with plans with intellectual constructs. That's sort of what got us where we are. So the inquiry, at least for me is not appealing to the intellectual body of eight and a half billion people, but perhaps turning attention to appealing to the sensing feeling bodies of eight and a half billion people, and figuring out how to shift out of fear as a sustained global psychosis and how to shift into needs and creating safety, which is a lot simpler in certain respects and more fundamental in all of our constructions. So with that on complete. Thank you, Doug. I'm going to go back to what Mike was saying, but I will say that what I'm going to say does tie into what you're saying, because I do think to get into the sensing feeling. I don't have to shift the thinking for well anyway what I wanted to say I wanted to get back to what Mike was saying because I really have believed for a long time that the media is probably the most powerful leverage point that we have. I want to try it to my first statement where I was talking about us as individuals, and the way we look at our peers ideas. And I want to draw the next point which is that the people in the media are individuals doing the same things. And I want to use an example that most of you have probably heard about and it was a country star who through cancel culture has been elevated in the media to either a villain or a hero. So, this person is making out because he's now ultra famous media is making out because whether you hate him, or you love him, you're watching them speak about him. And I wonder what would have happened if this gentleman would have been called on to be interviewed without first attacking him to be interviewed from a true. Not a gotcha kind of thing, but interviewed and said, were you aware that this video was taped outside the building. Do you know what happened there. How do you feel about that, because we all know that people are very brave. When they're on their keyboard, you know, or they're texting on Twitter or whatever, or when they have a crowd of adoring followers. But when you're looking in somebody's eyes. You kind of soften a bit. And I think that we want people to soften a bit. And if we just could remember that the energy we put out the force that we put out, we're going to be met with that same force. And maybe if we could dial it back, the same way you would try to get a two year old from not having a tantrum. You wouldn't keep like hammering. So, again, I think that it would engage people. To hold somebody accountable once I can go to hold somebody accountable and really ask the question and give them the space to have to to know that they're going to be accountable to back up what they say might change the mindset of things and it might open the way to better conversations. So, I'm complete. Go ahead, Gil. I'm going to interrupt Stacy. I just wanted to get in queue behind you to comment. Thank you for what you just said. There's, there's an enormous power and actually being curious about other people. And what they think and how they feel and why they say what they say so very much echo what you're saying and in relation to this recent phenomenon I've noticed two things that are, I find really disturbing one is that man, so many people comment on headlines without reading the article. And I've raised that question. There's one, one case on I violated my protocol I made a comment to a about a comment. I comment that I'm something that a friend of a friend said they have a rule of not engaging with friends of friends if I don't know them. And I blew it there. And he did this thing. And I said I'm kind of fascinated this phenomenon of people commenting on articles without reading the headlines and he was pissed off at me for that so there's that on the one hand. To this, to this song. I've been baffled. I have not seen the video. I've listened to the song and for the life of me I can't find what's offensive in the song. I understand the video has got other kind of places to it. And I've, and I've asked a few people in post to tell me what they are finding racist or horrible in the song no one's answered. So it's an example of this kind of readiness. It's like flame on instantly. Before curiosity. Investigation. And, you know, again acting Stacy what you said I've been. I've been in my own conversations. Oops, can you hear me have my mic may have just shifted. Can you hear me. Yes. Everybody's got opinions right. All the time we just like opinion creators and it's really easy to respond to somebody's opinion well like what you were saying with yeah but no you're wrong I disagree or you know subtext you're an asshole have you even think that. And it's really different to say, thank you for sharing your opinion with me I'm curious what led you to that. You know, or my opinion is different. This is interesting we you know we're both good folks we both have different opinions about this thing let's explore that. It's a very different kind of conversation than the immediate, immediate lurch to fisticuffs and flame on and so forth so anyhow yeah thank you Stacy for that. I just have to jump in real quick because I also just want to say the irony to that song is that what he's he's basically saying that if you do this that's what my gun is for. So there is something to be you know it's, there is reason to be upset with the song and the video, but, and you should be just as upset when you hear a rap song. You should be at a grading women you should just as be as upset with a lot of things. So again, I just don't want to make it like this guy is getting flat for nothing. Because, you know, again, that's why I would love to have heard him have to stand up for what he's saying because I have to believe that there's good parts in him that wouldn't say that to somebody's face. You're muted. I'm going to come back to my opening comment before most of us were here, which is to say that with the increasing cascade of discussion about climate. More people are anxious and they're going to use that anxiety to turn to the internet for up to the date news as to what's happening. And the result will be to create a huge platform of discussions with all their conflicts that begin to replace the nation state as the platform for discussion, and it's creating a new culture. That's going to be really interesting. I see no hands up so I want to see if anybody else has been as excited and fascinated by the women's World Cup as I have been. It's even, I mean you guys on the West Coast have a little bit of advantage that some of the games that are one o'clock or two o'clock here at an almost reasonable time. I'm always torn between thinking that the Super Bowl and the Olympics and the World Cup are the modern equivalent of bread and circuses and the late Roman Empire. And thinking that there are platform for incredible stories and celebration of people who have dedicated 10 or 20 years of their life to something to be the very best. I lean dream dream the periods when we're watching all of this, whether it's the Tour de France or the World Cup I lean towards this is great this is wonderful. And then in between I read all the reports about the corruption and the doping by the Russians and think oh geez, we ruin a good thing. I think there is something here I, I also think unfortunately there are our politics have become some version of sports and rather than just having an election that lasts six or eight weeks, like the Brits do. We've decided we need to spend a year and a half evaluating candidates and watching their gladiatorial combat on the debate stage. And of course spending literally billions of dollars on advertising which of course feeds the media machine. But anybody else who wants to be optimistic about sports, or give other examples. You know, sports is really important. At so many levels I've been watching some of the women's World Cup there are games that are on earlier than that. So on our feed there seem to be two a night and one is coming up at around 6pm Pacific, and then another like 10pm Pacific so you might, you might be able to find an earlier one. I'm enjoying it in part because I have no attachment. I have no familiarity with the teams or the players. So I'm watching it for the pure joy of watching it to watch outstanding people perform outstandingly in teamwork. You know, I sometimes root for one team or another but mostly I just love watching the play of it and, you know, and for me the same when I watch the Olympics, I don't really care that like the coverage has evolved over the last I don't know 30 years or so to be about the games as a whole to be to being about the US team. I imagine it's similar in other countries. And I want to watch just seeing the best of humans. They have dedicated their lives to to excelling sometimes individually sometimes together. And just marvel at what's possible for us to do as outside of the nationalism thing so there's that a really interesting watch on I think it's on Apple TV is a show is a four part documentary called Super League. Oh, yes, like for football or something like that it's about the attempt to to corporatize the game of football here in the United States, the world. It's fascinating in itself fascinating how they were able to make this thing. They produced this film in the course of the drama. And one of the themes in it is in the fight for football is the fans rising up and saying we do not want you fuckers to corporatize our game because this is ours. And this is a new this is a passion rooted in community and any I'll leave it to you to see it. It's a wonderful piece of work. It's what I reinforce the jingoism cells. Yeah. And the second thing is if, if people have not watched any of it. If you can watch a replay of this morning's game between Australia and Nigeria. It was just an amazing game. And the women are better at teamwork. And the women don't do all these acting the flopping where you know you pretend you were pushed over and you roll in the ground. They do a little of it but they get up real fast. There will be, there may be something about teamwork and women. And, you know, one of the things they love about watching the Golden State Warriors play basketball is the, and this was this was there in the early Brazilian soccer team when Pele was playing as a magical kind of teamwork. He was telepathic and balletic. And for me, you know, for me, it's just the joy to see to see just to watch it itself and also to see that potential of human beings. Carl, I'm going to just jump in quickly. I just forgot to raise my hand when I thought we weren't. It's, it's the, the power and passion of presence that these athletes bring to the game. It's extremely just beautiful to watch. You know, the unfortunate pieces we've, you know, kind of devolved to where people think, you know, most important is who's winning and who's losing. And I remember the, you know, some of those old paradigms that they used to try to, you know, teach kids it's not it's not so much about who wins or loses. And yet we've devolved to where crazy parents are ending up in jail and bad with assaults and things like that about their kid not being in the game. You know, and look what we do as human beings. There's also a new documentary about Stephen Curry. I think it's on Apple, Apple TV about, you know, how he rose up from being told that you're too small. You're too little blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and push back against all that adversity as a motivator, which is, you know, a great media lesson. Okay, interrupt before Carl talks, my dad was a little league coach. And he was also the commissioner of the local church softball league. The church players were far more misbehave, they misbehaved even worse than little parents. Carl. Well, to Gil's point, Steve Kerr, the coach and his father was the president of the American University and was assassinated was that there's been some interviews with him. And then there was an award, one of the sports awards shows but they were, it was all focused on the first responders and Cincinnati, and all the good stuff that's so there's, and then I guess the stewards point. There's also the, I mean, it's the preparation to aspect of, you know, that you're really an expert in something and we got the passion. I'm talking about the commander's new quarterback and how he's been saying an hour and hour and a half later and he's won the locker room so, you know, don't care about what people are saying outside the locker room and EA sports rated him as a 66 joint the lowest rating quarterback or whatever, but just some various points but yes sports has a lot, a lot of power there. So this music so this food. And there's a lot of things that are kind of cross cultural. And for a documentary that's 10 years old has nothing to do with sports but it's called particle fever. And if you want to see collaboration at the highest levels in the world. These are the people who built the large hadron collider they come from all over the world. They are incredibly brilliant. And it's a very inspiring movie. Right now it's I don't know if she's still the head of it but there's a woman leading this who is a classically trained pianist and an off the church physicist and, you know, they get together and solve really hard problems, and they do it, you know, in with grace and kindness and compassion and curiosity and it's like everything about this movie I found inspiring. So I just throw it in the, in the chat there Wikipedia particle fever, get a chance to have a chance to watch that it's really enjoyable. She is amazing we gave her the award for innovation at the Arthur C Clark Foundation three years ago. And she's, she's just incredible Fabriola Jean out. Yeah, and she just did an interview with yo yo ma, the two of them in discussion. I'll see if I can find it. So, so what if this is normal for human beings. What if this kind of collaboration across, you know, across nationalities across differences what if this is normal what if people come in together to do remarkable things is normal. This is what we do. What if and I will assert this is true what if there are millions upon millions of examples right now of people doing stuff like this at big scale and small scale. And it's not what makes the news because it's not it bleeds it leads, and it's not a fire on the front page. And you know Paul Hawkins book some years ago blessed unrest chronicled millions of grassroots organizations working on climate and justice and environmental issues. And in the film of that there's at the end there's a credit scroll of groups and the credit scroll goes on for like. And so that's a story in the world of now as well as the clathade gun and the creeping fascism and everything else. It's not what shows up in the media that rush limbo uses the media tells to not trust. But there it is. Governor McCain used to run a thing for years called what's working which featured it was all about inspirational stories of regular human beings, sometimes against enormous odd sometimes not doing stuff together. And, you know, so we're going to want to go with this. Sometimes we argue and sometimes we fight and sometimes we invite and sometimes we inspire. You know, and, and maybe then sometimes plans are important and sometimes poetry is important. You know, and the question that's been that's been in the background for me in this whole conversation is how do we shift the background. A couple of people have referred to it steward I think you talked about the feel that somebody referenced and reminded me of Heidegger's clearing of like you know the background in which everything shows up and you know it's like not that it's not that I'm thinking thoughts it's that thoughts are arising in me out of the context of this conversation and my history and the culture that I'm living in. You can maybe persuade me to do something different by logic and argument, but maybe that's not how change actually happens. So the mystery for me is how does it happen how does the field shift how does the clearing shift. We know that it can because we know that it has, you know, we've seen in our lives we've seen social norms change in this country and in other countries. There's a pushback against social norms changing, you know, we're in a, we're in a battle for the story of the world. What's real and what matters and so for me the mystery is how, you know, how do we as heart full thoughtful compassionate creative people contribute to that. In the best ways we can in the face of all that's swirling around us, Ken and I. In the in the living between worlds calls. You lost your, your audio dropped out. Is anyone else hearing Gil. No, your audio is gone right after you're living between worlds. Maybe he can't hear us either. Yeah. I just wanted to briefly. Until Gil comes back coming out. Doug said earlier Doug Carmichael about Internet conversations of a positive nature kind of taking over governance. And I just Yes, and I just wanted to bring these conversations into the public realm and how to get, you know, more and more people listening I remember when, when the Internet first arrived, you know, the aspiration or goal was to, you know, have something go viral. And I just wanted to make that term in a long time, because there's just so much right now. And I just wanted to, you know, kind of punctuate that that. I do have a poem. We're at time. This is Maya Angelou on a bright day next week. Just before the bomb falls, just before the world ends. Just before I die. All my tears will powder black in dust like ashes, black, like Buddha's belly, black and hot and dry. Then we'll mercy tumble, falling down in God heads, falling on the children, falling from the sky. Thanks Ken. Great way to call. Can you give us the link if you can. Say that again. Could you give us the link. It's, I don't have a link it's actually from a book of poems of hers but it's called on a bright day next week. On a bright day next week and probably Google it and find it. That's my Angelou. Thank you. After this conversation and everything else in the news. I'm going to go see the Barbie movie. propaganda. Yeah. All right. Thank you everybody. Thanks everybody. Bye. I'll just capture the chat. Is there any way to do that? You can, you can save it and it'll be saved. The three dots down at the very bottom. Oh yes. Okay. Yeah, I was able to. Okay. Usually I do. Somehow it wasn't coming up before. And I'll send the recording and the chat and everything to Jerry. So let him. He'll be impressed with how well we managed without him. Maybe he'll, maybe he'll let us do it always. I hope not too. Bye. Cheers all. Yeah.