 In a direct challenge to the directive of President Mohammad Abu Hari, the governor of Khadruna State, Nasir El-Rufai, has asked residents of the state to accept the old 500 and 1000 Naira nodes as legal tender. Mr El-Rufai gave the directive and a broadcast to residents of the state. During the interview, he described the Naira redesign policy as a weapon by members of the ruling party and close allies of Mr President, bent on stopping the presidential candidates of the ruling all-progressive Congress, APC, Bola Ahmed Tunibu, from winning the 25th February elections. He described the policy as and said that he had cost on talled hardship for the ordinary people of the state, who he said are victims of this same policy. Meanwhile, the vice presidential candidates of the Labour Party, Datty Baba Ahmed, said comments made by governor of Khadruna State, Nasir El-Rufai on the Naira redesign policy following the nationwide broadcast of Mr President Abu Hari are treasonable. El-Rufai also said the old 1500 Naira are still legal tenders in his state and stated that the aim of the Naira redesign is to scuttle the general elections and put an interim government led by a retired army general. Joining us to discuss this is Jimmy D'Souhi, he is a public affairs analyst and he is also a veteran journalist. It's so good to have you join us. Good evening. How are you? Thank you. It's interesting that this has, El-Rufai has been waxing very lyrical lately about not just the Naira redesign, but a lot of things. In fact, he started with the line that there are people or elements within Mr President's government that seem to be walking against the presidential candidates of the APC and today he has ordered people in his state to still recognize the 500 and 1000 Naira note as legal tender. The first presidential candidate of the Labour Party is calling it treasonable. Do you stand by that or do you have other thoughts on this particular one? Of course, there's hardly any educated, enlightened and reasonable person that would not call it treasonable. Indeed, if El-Rufai didn't have immunity as a government, certainly he should have been at the very least being waxing for questioning. Because there are two things that have happened. The first is that you claim that you know that the government is planning some kind of intelligent government to be headed by a retired general. I mean that in itself, that kind of accusation in public space is in itself treasonable. And then you've gone further to say that, oh, to give directives of account to the president's directives on this money policy. I think El-Rufai has to be very careful. Let me say that this is part of what we talk about in this country. If it had been a governor from the east who said this, for example, he'll be accused of treasonable things, the tying, IPOR, all kinds of things that have been wrapped up to it. I think the government needs to make an example of El-Rufai. Nobody has a monopoly on these things. The government has issued directives as to the new money policy. The new have been redesigned as the government has said specifically, it's not an economic matter, it's a security matter. They are doing this to forestall those who have piled up our own money. People need to know that this money is that the president is claiming that people have piled up his own money. Just today, a video made around one of the state governors, I think he said it also, had been doing salary for six months, he brought up all the cash on him. I mean, I don't understand these things. People have better open up their eyes to make sure they're not carried away by this wrong sentiment that, oh, the president wants to make the people suffer. We stand with our president. All the phone calls we've gotten on most of the radio shows in the social media. People are standing by the president by his resolve to say that this country will not be held hostage by any group of people. It will not. And he looks at it, he's calling for a fight. I don't know whether that is the philosophy of his group, but we are even waiting to see how the government responds to this. Clearly we want to see how the government would respond to this reasonable act. Okay. Those who are making, those who are in support of Governor El Rufi and the likes are saying that this government has been in the habit of flagrantly disregarding, you know, the laws or, you know, judgments from the Supreme Court or whatever. But then they're saying that this particular move, especially for the likes of the governor of Kaduna State, he's fighting for the interests of the people. I mean, I want to quote him directly. He said that the sad fact is that the victims of these mindless policies are the people that elected us. And he's saying that these people are suffering. And so whatever stands he's taking is in the best interests of the people in his state who are not able to eat, to transact businesses because of these mindless policies he calls them. And I'm sure that you know that many have accused the Buhari administration of disregarding certain laws or court judgments. So is this not a ground for the likes of El Rufi to say, well, we cannot stand for this? Two wrongs don't make a right. El Rufi is an educated person. He's somebody I ordinarily would have had without the lack of respect for. And he should know that two wrongs don't make a right. In any case, we are not convinced about his argument that his fight is for the masses. Where was El Rufi when all the universities were shot? Where was El Rufi in the past all along where people had been suffering? His own principal claimed ownership. He said, and I quote him that, this exercise, this directive by the president was aimed at him. He took ownership of it in the first instance. And since then, the understate governor has said the same. So it's difficult for him to not come to say, oh, he is fighting for the masses. Has he ever fought for the masses? Has he ever fought for the masses? Go ask the masses who are in Abuja at the time when he was in charge of the exit and ask them if the name fights for the masses. The truth is that to make an omelette, you have to break an egg. In this instance, I also believe that the president's plan was sabotaged. But he made it clearly. And that's what I like about the president. If he hide under anything, he made it clearly. He said that he knows that there are some politicians who have stockpiled money to use during elections. And there is no other time they could have done it there now. If they had done it earlier, they'd have enough time to adjust. I think rather than look at the legalese of all these things, which in any case, I seem to align myself with the argument of professor Adikandu, who believes and is a professor of law, who believes that the Supreme Court had in so kind of a way no jurisdiction in this matter. But let's sort of leave the legal angles out and let's look at the survival of the nation. Stop talking about survival here. Because you see, just as El Rufai is saying it's in the best interest of his people, you're talking about the survival of the people. Several people are unable to transact. They have monies. They can see the monies in their account. They're unable to transact any business. I mean, I think Lagos and Abuja might be receiving some form of ease in doing business. But when you go to other cities, and I'm talking about the likes of Potakat, Inugu, Aba, these transactions have been hanging mid-air. And the average person does not take a chance far to maybe eat, let's say, Aba Sierra for 500 Naira. So really, again, are we not the ones suffering? And how long can people continue suffering like this before the bar breaks? I haven't said that people are not suffering at all. I mean, all of us know that when you want to go into a struggle, when you want to gain freedom, it's going to be a big fight. A man like Nelson Mandela, who went to jail for 27 years, you can't say he didn't know what he was doing. The people need to be emancipated. The larger problem they will have is if this country is hijacked by money bags, in most cases, our own money that has been stolen. I didn't say in all cases, in most cases, our money that has been stolen. So we need to look at the larger picture. Look, part of the problem is that this policy would affect some of the people that the president himself would need to carry out this exercise. Because we all know what a public service is like. Only God knows how many public servants are caught in bags and bags and bags of money in their homes and various places in cemeteries, in Sokewi. We can't continue to live like this, Marian. And I am sure that by this time next week, if that is the case, because I believe this directive has been sabotaged. The president is working at it. He has said, OK, you can use 200 naira, you can use 0200 naira side by side to be new to April. And guess what? As of today, this afternoon at about 3 or 4, at a place where you and I know, people are rushing to the bank and getting this 200 naira loss over the counter. But it's not as if everything has been stagnated. You have your cash to use. You have what you call it now. You can do... Transferred. Sorry? Online transfer. You can do transfer. Yes, it has never been perfect and it never will be because of where we are infrastructurally. But surely it is not doomsday. Even in Lagos now, daffodil transporters are taking transfers. The LLA is going in my neighborhood has an account number pinned on her post. So I am not saying that it is not bad to totally know, but we need to look at the larger picture. And we need to make a sacrifice. And I am saying if you have gone through what the South Africans went through during apartheid, you will know what a struggle will be like. There is no struggle that is easy. In most cases, the people who are watching strong on these problems that we have will be freeing these things at you. Where was Erufai when her children could go to university for eight months? Where was he? His co-governor in the North. Who didn't pay his staff for about six months? Why did he suddenly bring up the cash? Where did he keep it? Where was it? There is a respected politician in the North. I think it is Aladdin Gekalajima who says that, look, intelligence reports say that one governor has taxed close to 22 billion in a house, you know, outside the state house. What does he want to do with it? Merriam, unless we want to be hypocrites, we saw what happened at the primary. And this is what it is, Merriam. Most of these politicians and most, maybe the Erufai people, I don't know, they have taxes of 1,000 Naira. In volumes that will frighten you. Let me tell you, there is a story that says that during this election campaign, at a place where money was dropped, you know, we call it where money was dropped, where they took money for sensitivities and all these things. The robber on that money was the robber of a banker that had been closed down for close to seven years, meaning that money had been kept for that long. So at what time people do not get confused, do not get convinced that anybody is doing this on your behalf. They never did things on your behalf in the past anyway. So why now? What I like about all this is that the president has claimed ownership. He has given the reason. Why not believe the president or you don't? Okay, let's look at the after effect of this because you see there's a lot of frustration. You and I have also seen videos, pictures. I mean, I won't be shocked if somebody has walked up to you to ask for some money to at least be able to eat for that day and explains to you that he does have money but he doesn't have access to his money. Now we've seen what's happened in Benin. We've seen what's happened in Ibadon. I've also seen pictures of a bank that was destroyed totally in Uyul. That's a crime of state. And also in Lagos here this morning, there were calls of mile 12. We saw some in Ekbe. I mean, they look like, you know, pockets of violence here and there. Now there are those who are also skeptical about how these things are happening but this is also a result of this, you know, policy. How do we deal with this? Because of course if this continues, then we might not be able to handle it. No, I think that now that you have 200 Naira that can go side by side, I assume that by Monday people, all the ATM machines, people will have access to notes in 200 Naira. Anyway, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Something to stop me here. Okay, so I feel that by that time we will have more than enough currency to grow. Because the truth is what you need in cash really has small amounts. If you have to do transaction over 2,000, 3,000, surely you can use either your card or you can use your... You can do a transfer, you know, to the person. I think we just need to be a bit... I think we need to be a bit patient. And then how come there's no riots in the north? You somehow, I believe something tells me that some of these riots and demonstrations might be state-sponsored. They might be space-sponsored. These are happening. How come... Your guess is as good as mine. How come these are happening in states where you have people of influence in this party and that is what is happening? The adopted government, for example, had accused the former government of being responsible for what they have done. But I don't want to get into the mismatch. We want to be focused. The concern of most of us, and I'm sure you, if I ask you of air, is that you have free and fair elections that is not induced in any manner. It's going to be a call order. I know these guys will find a way around it. And therefore, if we're looking at this issue, why are we not looking at the implication of whatever you find himself has done? The example that he is setting, at the time when we have security issues, I think he is setting a very wrong example. You know, I think that he is setting a very wrong example and a very wrong precedent. Someday, it's okay because it's from... We will say the truth. It's okay because it's from Kaduna. If it had been a governor in the east, or a governor in the southwest, who went to broadcast to the fact, would the reaction have been the same? This is what happens when things like this, these are the issues that are not common. It's reasonable. It's reasonable. Let me push you forward. Now, the CBN and Mr. President are of the opinion that this is going to fight stockpiling of Naira and of Kos, but then the CBN governor also has come out to say that politicians are responsible for the scarcity of the new Naira nodes. So if you were putting out a policy to stop these people from stockpiling monies and then they succeed to take the same new monies that you're trying to float back into the system, is that not a failure already? Well, I think the first attack in this exercise is to make sure that what they have stashed were close to three, four, five, six, some of them almost 10 years. What they have rained in from the public cost becomes useless. I think that is the first form of a time. And I am not surprised that they are cornering all the money. A lot of the money coming out now because they have the means to do it. And don't forget, don't every public servant will be with the president on this. Not every banker, you know, will be with the president on this. So you are bound to have pockets of sabotage. It prevails on the president and the CBN governor to make examples of those who are involved in this exercise. Instead of a messiah lay coming to tell us that this is what politicians are doing, name and shame them. Work with the DSS and deal with them severely. But it looks as if the government itself is reluctant to access the law. In this case, why did you wait for so long? You have records of these people stockpiling monies. Why do you need to go after those monies in the first instance? But I think the president thinks it would be that if you go after them too early, they will always find the way around it. He's concerned. And I like the fact that he claimed it is that this election is free and fair. And that is where my focus is because for a lot of people, this election is a turnaround, Marianne. A lot of people are saying we cannot continue on this along the same path. When it's time for elections, both money and violence, are used to determine the future of the country. You encourage people in the first instance, now you want to buy them with money. Where are we going to get out of this second slavery? We had independence in 1960. In 1923, we are still not independent. Let's talk about, because you mentioned the issue of free, fair and credible elections, which for some people, it might seem as a mirage for, you know, this country. But many were happy at first when this idea came up. But now, just as I said in the last question, a lot of people also have the opinion that this whole idea might be working in favour of vote buying because you see now everybody is crazy about getting cash. And elections are just a few days away. What am I saying? In a few days, next week Saturday, we're going to be lining up at our different polling units. If you show somebody some cash, flash the new amount of money, the new denominations, 1,500 and the new 200, I'm guessing that people will be more open to taking that money. So, again, I ask... Yes, but people are no longer stupid. If you did the... You know, all day, you know, I walk on radio, all day, we've been on radio, and people have been calling in. And they have a clear understanding of what is going on. Sometimes we find somebody can bear it. Okay? But they have a clear understanding of the need for us to have an opportunity to turn this country around and not continue with this nonsense business that we are doing. I mean, for God's sake, when are we going to move? We got independent in 1960. What are we talking about? We got to move. We took so many years fighting the military. When we finally got democracy, now we have to fight the politicians. I think it's a... I would plead with my people, bear this, I am sure, I am almost sure that once the presidential elections are done, which is just next week, things will... As this afternoon, they've been easing up on some parts of the island anyway. Banks were paying money across the counter to people. And remember, it's not as if your money is held down. If you really have to... I mean, I did about four transfers today for things that are hard to do. You know, like, you know, fairly good sums of money that are hard to do. I didn't have any problem with it. In fact, I did it on my phone. You know, and even I transferred money to my household everything. I did everything on my phone. But what is the percentage of people who are in your category who have smartphones, who are able to do these transfers? Don't forget, there are people who don't trust banks. But then there are people who don't also trust banks. The U.S.S.D. courts have not been working. And now they've put their monies in the banks, but they can't have access to it. So again, they might just retreat to the former way of keeping their monies. There is nothing in this world that is perfect. We always talk about the majority. Even in the Western world, sometimes you do have problems. You have problems with the Internet. You have problems with all kinds of things. There is no system that is completely foolproof. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm not saying that people are not affected. I sympathise with them. You know, but there are so many options that you have. You can do transfers, you can do a kind of thing. But you can even do transfers at the POS. You can do transfers at the POS. I mean, so, to be honest with you, yes, you can pick holes and say, what about this and what about that? What about that and what about this? But we need to look at the majority. What about the majority of Westerns to be enslaved forever? Who impoverishes people in the first instance? These are the people that want to use the money to buy them. They are the ones who have impoverished them to the point that some of them cannot even get these muscles that they are talking about. And we say we've got to put an end to it. And like I said, you cannot make a goblet without breaking an egg. We know how long it took South Africans before they were able to flee themselves from the shackles of apartheid. What we have in Nigeria, what we always told me that what we have in Nigeria is what's the apartheid. It is ten times worse than apartheid. So yes, people can, of course, they are the ones engineering all this and what about this and what about that? What about that and what about this? Try to pitch people a case into another. The bottom line is this thing is easy enough and I assume that in another two, three, four days it will have eased up. And like I said, maintain you have other forms of... Don't forget that we are not talking... We are not saying you can't spend your money. The problem is you can't get cash easily. That's why the problem lies. Okay. And with this $200 directive I think that in a day or two, maximum by Monday or Tuesday next week we will help smoothly. In any case, I am sure the president... And what happens now is that it is the one one thousand... Nairan knows that these people have stockpiled that the president wants to let that completely useless. And you can see what... Look at what the speaker also said that he believes his principle was a target. The UNOSM governor said this policy was to demarcate their candidate. Can you come and explain to me what he means by demarcating their candidate? I don't understand. I'd be glad to... He's my friend. I'd be glad for him to explain to me. I would understand. But what I do know, we know the modus operandi of this gentleman in the past. How money extends his hands, combined with violence. And the president has said the issue of money and violence if it is the last thing he will leave this country with, he will conduct an election that is free, well as much as possible of those money influence and also of violence. Okay. Well, thank you so much. Jimmy D'Sou is a public affairs analyst and a veteran journalist. Always a pleasure to have you here on the show. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you very much. All right. See you. Have a good evening. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We will take a quick break. And when we return, we will be discussing the northern perspective on the 2023 elections and of course the choice of the NEF for presidents. Stay with us. We'll be right back.