 Hi everyone and thank you very much for joining this webinar with us today. This is a fourth webinar in a series and I'll talk a little bit more about that series shortly, but my name's Amanda Lake and I leading our Climate Smite Utilities subgroup on greenhouse gas monitoring and I'm also a Process engineer with Jacobs based in Edinburgh in Scotland and so it's great to be here We've got a really nice panel today of presentations From process emissions to planetary boundaries, so just a few administrative notes first this webinar will be recorded and on demand and the materials and other other solar responsibility of speakers and don't reflect the opinion of Iowa and During the webinar if you'd like to raise questions, please use a Q&A box and Please use a chat box for general questions for For issues with if you've got any issues, but please use the Q&A box for questions and all of microphones will be muted And we can't we're not going to have hands raised But yeah, please raise your questions at any point and we're going to come back to those after each presentation So I'm going to give it just a very brief overview of the series that has led to this fourth webinar And then we're going to hear from Owen on on life cycle assessment in wastewater treatment and then we're going to hear another case study from Maria and Final case study from from Yucca and Inga and so a really great Practical some theory but also really great practical examples of applying going beyond greenhouse gas accounting and Life cycle carbon to wider use of life cycle frameworks in supporting decision-making in water resource recovery facilities and then I'm going to give a brief overview to the to recent white paper that we published as a climate smart utilities subgroup and After each speaker will take five minutes of Q&A and then we'll have a little bit of time at the end for discussion as well So it should be a great Approximately hour and a half we we may finish a little a little earlier, but we've a we've got an hour and a half slot So I'm sure it would be a great a great Discussion so these are our speakers today and each of them will introduce themselves as their turn comes and I just want to thank all of our speakers again It's great to have you here and just as an overview for people who aren't aware. This is the fourth webinar in a series that we've had Which has really focused on bringing the Nordic experience to on both greenhouse gas accounting, but also wider Life cycle assessment and wider decision-making approaches because it started from the World Congress last year in Copenhagen where we had a great climate smart utilities workshop and there were just so many fantastic examples and particularly the this road towards a Nordic climate neutral water sector that we thought Which was a document that was published and Jacob and Anna Katrina had a great a large role in producing this We thought that it would be very useful to share this document as well as experience specifically on a really key topic In greenhouse gas accounting, which is process submissions of nitrous oxide and methane So these are the three webinars we've had so far. So the first one was the Nordic experience which really gave an overview of that Document on greenhouse gas accounting by Nordic countries that you can see to the left That's the document and that's available online We could post a link in the chat and then we had a first webinar which really shared that a second webinar which was focusing on monitoring and mitigating methane and Again drawing on Danish lessons for global action and then the third webinar which we had Last month was monitoring mitigating nitrous oxide again sharing sharing the lessons from Denmark and then here what we're really doing is showing how in particular process emissions, but wider greenhouse gas accounting and in fact wider life cycle assessment beyond carbon can be used in decision-making and in water resource recovery facilities and again withdrawing on experience from in particular from Denmark and Then just a final that the document on the far right there is in the slide is is a recent white paper that our working group have released And this really tries to summarize provide links to a lot of this information as well and really summarize So what we hope is really interesting information and useful practical guidelines for utilities both on greenhouse gas accounting but also on these kind of wider frameworks and Decision-making processes that we so desperately need as we as we try to take climate action But also action on wider biodiversity and social social crises as well So with that I think I will pass across to our first speaker and it's my pleasure to hand across to Owen who will introduce himself and Thanks very much Owen Thanks very much Manda So my name is Owen Clifford and I work in the University of Galway Which is on the west coast of Ireland. I'm actually based at the moment in the Netherlands in 2023 but would normally be working from there and Yes, okay So basically just a little bit of my background So I'm the head of civil engineering in University of Galway and in today's talk. I'm also presenting On behalf of spinel company from our research group called water vortex solutions So this is a this case studies a project by my research group and university and our spinel company My background is in process engineering in water and wastewater Both an academic and industrial background and I suppose in in that my group in the university We cover everything from fundamental research up to almost full-scale research So we do do quite a lot of them large-scale Product development technology development as well So I'm just going to give a little bit of a background on Life-cycle assessment but literally two slides and I'm sure a lot of people maybe in the audience know about it But just in case just to set the scene for that. So and basically I ISO 14 040 has what I think is a pretty good definition of life cycle assessment So it's a compilation and evaluation of the inputs and outputs and the potential Environmental impacts of a product system throughout its life cycle and what do we mean by its life cycle? Well, it starts with resource and raw material extraction goes through processing manufacturing Distribution use and then end of life and ideally a full life cycle assessment would look at all these elements of a product or a system on it and So kind of breaking that down a little bit when you're actually trying to model Produce a life cycle assessment model of a particular process or a product You're going to have input such as raw materials for example water You might have manufacturing facilities electricity heat and you might have land use chemicals and there are many other things They go into making the product and process that you're trying to model and the outputs from that can be things like emissions to the To the air emissions to water such as wastewater There can be chemical and solid waste emissions, but you can also have things like heaf recovery from your process and a lot of your Waste material may not indeed be wasted. Maybe recyclable and material as well I'm just going to put on the pointer. Sorry and One of the key aspects when you look then at life cycle assessment model is what is the actual model boundary going to be? So as I said before ideally, we're trying to look at the entire product life cycle But this may not be possible and so in some cases you may look at what's called cradle to gate So this is looking at raw materials to the manufacturing facility gate There might be cradle to consumer which is I guess taking it a step further looking at the Distribution processes and then you have cradle to grave, which will be the entire life cycle and one of the key things to remember in life cycle assessment is the the functional unit choice and What you're trying to do is model the impacts per some functional unit and that might be 1500 millilitre water bottle for example Delivered to the consumer it could be per kilometer driven if you're looking at car transport or in this case We're going to see later on it could be per kilogram oxygen entrained in a wastewater treatment system Sorry just moving on Okay So some of the drivers for life cycle assessment from academic point of view I suppose it allows it's an opportunity to really holistically look at an overall measurement of the system impacts and product impacts on the environment it can drive innovation and mitigation and it's also very useful in trying to develop policy Particularly policy that will help us towards net zero in the future for industry Again for in for some industry It's going to be increasingly required at tendering stage and that's one of the case studies I'm going to give you today in the wastewater sector Again, it can drive like in academia can drive innovation and efficiency both technology innovation but also process efficiency and Would be also from a marketing and business point of view important for it could can be important for environmental credentials And for utilities Can be part of the requirement for carbon reporting it can be part of the modeling processes then it can help drive re-intendering processes within utilities and can be used to model assets to try and reduce the overall life cycle costs and impacts and There will be some examples of that today So but there are obviously some challenges with life cycle assessment if there weren't which It will be widely applied and I guess it's not particularly widely applied at this stage It's messy and complex to begin with it's not easy to do in many cases a really accurate life cycle model Another challenge is kind of trying to fairly compare to products for example or two systems because as I said before the Boundaries that you've modeled might be different. Are you comparing the same functional unit, etc a Key challenge and perhaps the biggest challenge is the data that you can use so to what degree do you have accurate data available and Unfortunately with life cycle assessment like with any model the outputs the model are obviously highly dependent on the accuracy of What you put into the model itself and then the expertise is there the available expertise in the organization to actually accurately Do the model develop the model, but also assess that the model is correct So that's just a little background into the process of life cycle assessment Obviously, there's a lot of Detail behind all this but moving on to the particular case study that I'm going to talk about today apologies the slides are just Moving a little bit slowly Okay So this case study is going to focus on aeration And so aeration as we all know probably here is a key component in wasteboard treatment in in that it underpins a lot of the Biochemical process that occur in a treatment plant. It's key for process control For example control of not just aerobic, but also anaerobic or anoxic process as well In this case the lack of variation being one of the key things It's a major energy energy consumer Generally the biggest energy consumer in a wastewater treatment facility And it has the ability to impact wider wastewater treatment plant emissions such as nitrous oxide So in this particular study case study, I'm going to show you we developed a life cycle assessment model for an aeration product installed at a large wastewater treatment plant and the idea was to measure the entire life cycle impacts of This aeration system as installed and operated over a 40-year period in The wastewater treatment plant as far as we know is to first such specific study like this Although I stand to be corrected on that if there are other examples So the wastewater treatment plant in question was a retrofit of actually a hundred thousand Excuse me. I made a type of their population equivalent wastewater treatment plant and Utility the requirement was that utility wanted an embodied carbon statement from the supplier And so the supplier came to us in the University That supplier being vortig to actually develop this life cycle assessment model So the life cycle assessment was carried out over the full product life cycle with some parts left out as I talk about in a minute using eco-invent Database version 3.9 and Simacro and just below I'm not going to go through the model But kind of shows you a non exhaustive list of the various product stages that were modeled and some of the inputs that were modeled So as part of the actual model itself the parts that I've outlined here in green were included in the embodied Carbon element which was required by the utility the parts that are in red which was Installation and maintenance and the actual equipment replacement during operation For example if the pump had to be replaced every 10 years or 15 years were left out Although at the end of the the model we found they would likely be negligible anyway And the parts in orange I am presenting today, but they weren't included as part of the what the utility required But we did run a life cycle assessment model for the actual operation part of the Erasion system So to give you an idea of some of the inputs we used infantry data So this is data from the actual Eco-invade database itself where we didn't have bespoke data We used infantry data and also things like the great carbon intensity of the country the area where we want to install this We use bespoke data around a bill of materials So what exactly went into manufacturing the product itself? In fact, we managed to pretty much model every single washer Bold seal etc that went into the product and very importantly data from Equivalent sites relating to the oxygen transfer efficiency of this product and also we use data from mixed sources for things like transport, etc We had two functional units one which is which is per kilo oxygen and trained in wastewater for system operating for 40 years and the second was Per aeration product installed. So two different units and for the purposes of the results I'm going to show you today that it doesn't really impact the graphs, but just for information We use two different functional units And so to quickly go through some of the results as you can imagine from the model there will be a lot of different types of results, but one of the Powerful things about life cycle assessment as opposed to carbon modeling is that we're able to look at the impacts across a whole wide range of different areas So what I'm showing here are two graphs one which takes a 40 year view of the product and during that 40 year Period parts of the product may might have to be upgraded, etc And the other one takes a one-year Operational view of the product where it includes the embodied carbon plus one year of operation and you can see that over Boat time periods that almost all the impacts relate to climate change Which is greenhouse gas emissions and resource use Due to as including fossil fuels and that as we see later on mainly comes from Electricity which is used in the manufacturer to product and also operating to product Other key impacts will be things like acidification and equitoxicity. I should Mention here as well that we we are only looking at the Manufacturing operation of the product and we didn't we're not estimating here the actual off gases from the wastewater treatment plant itself So you can see that when it comes to this particular aeration system that most of the impacts will be around climate change and Resource usage regardless of whether it's operated for one year or 40 years and there's a particular reason for that that I cover in a second So for the embodied carbon and this is a key interest both to this was of interest utility, but also to Company itself we supply the product because it enables them maybe to target areas that they need to They can innovate on to maybe reduce the embodied carbon inter-products. We see that most of the Impacts for climate change resource use at ecotoxicity, etc occur during the manufacturer stage And the fabrication stage and also during the manufacturer of the actual material manufacturer stage So that's not raw material extraction. It's actually the stage that brings it from what raw material extraction to produce in this case steel that was used in making the product or in the Conversion of recycled steel into steel. It's useful in it for this particular product. So they are the two key headings transport was insignificant for example and Steel production and as I said fabrication were key contributors However, I think the key result from the Analysis itself was that when we looked at the overall impacts and the different product stages that these impacts occurred for You can see that almost all in fact 99.9 percent occur at operation and maintenance stage And given that our estimate was that the actual maintenance the product will be negligible This is that operation stage and that's electricity usage So virtually in operating an aeration system, and it doesn't really matter what type of product it is Almost all of the impacts are going to be at operational stage the embodied Impacts are negligible now for the product supplier. They are very important But for the utility they will be negligible. So things like electricity mix is a key input variable and Very important to do it's oxygen requirements and transfer efficiency are key The other thing we looked at is the level of data accuracy and the importance of that data to the model itself and In that we could see that for future models We would try and improve for example future modeling of the carbon intensity of the electricity grid will be one area We'd look at because as we can see that's highly relevant and also trying to improve the modeling around the manufacturing Fabrication which will probably actually mean that the impacts were lower than expected I think we probably overestimated at that in both of those stages So some of the conclusions from the model itself From the the case study itself is that for utilities, for example Technology selection when it comes to aeration systems must favor technologies that are efficient and allow flexible operation If you are to reduce emissions because almost all of the emissions occur at operation stage And a key thing is that when you are modeling and doing life cycle assessment modeling for aeration systems That they need to be the model needs to be based on equivalent data from reported from other Waste water sites and not on clean water data. So a lot of a modeling occurs using Oxygen transfer efficiencies for through clean water, which to be honest is irrelevant when you're looking at the life cycle assessment Modeling because it vastly overestimates the efficiency on site For industry key I suppose take-homes from this will be a full impact analysis will be necessary of products in the future and already in the construction sector that's going on to a pretty good extent and It can ensure drive efficiency I know the company the product supplier already looking at the model outputs and see how can they they can improve their Model efficiency, and I guess that's why just the last slide here It's just our last part is that there are I guess some challenges with this these approach and using life cycle assessment A tender and design stage. How does the utility for example ensure like-by-like comparison? Do the companies have the in-house skills to do life cycle assessment? And how can we be sure of quality control to ensure that the models and data that the utilities receive are accurate? So that's it for me. Just to thank the project team and the funders. Thank you Thanks very much Owen Really interesting and yeah, I've never seen this never seen this for for aeration plant specifically. So I think it's fascinating Is it the first time you've presented it or? Yes, first time we presented you like we will in the future present more detailed figures and more details inside itself But it's kind of literally Installation commission stage so nice very nice Right, we have a few we do have a few minutes for questions I'm gonna take the initiative because I have questions if anyone does I can't see anyone Post have been posted any but if you've you've got a few minutes to do that or else we'll pick up at the end as well but on one question I had is around the assumed that assumed deterioration or diffuser replacement over over the life cycle of the diffusers I guess the replace from what you've said the replacement itself the materials and the diffusers probably not the issue But that reject that you know the drop-off in efficiency and also Yeah, I just wondered did you factor in that? Throughout those 40 years and what assumptions I guess you know what assumptions you made and then also I guess around the grid energy I assume you assume some sort of decarbonization trajectory for the grid emission factor or yeah Just if you could give us a little bit of context there. Sorry two questions. Yeah, I know that's that's okay And actually you've asked me something that I should have I meant to make clear at the beginning. So first of all, this this particular system is not a diffuser based system Yeah, yeah And because I'm not there's more details at the company's website. It's listed there But I I'm presenting on parts of the university. So I'm not trying to to sell the technology. I think so and because of the nature of this technology maintenance issues will be Absolutely certainly negligible if you're looking at a diffuser based system a what you have said is very true You would need to look at diffuser fouling and try and estimate how that impacts oxygen transfer efficiency because that is by far That and the electricity grid efficiency are the two key inputs to this model That's what we've seen and that won't matter That would be the same for all erasure systems and you would also have to look for a diffuser based systems You'd have to probably include maintenance As well simply because the maintenance of those systems tend to be a little more complex when they do file completely In terms of grid efficiency, that was the difficult one to model What we did was we used the residual energy mix for the country for their latest data We try to it is possible to model what they are projecting any countries projecting their Energy grid might look like in 2030 2040 2050 etc, but there's a lot of uncertainty around that data and We for the purposes of this presentation. I just presented the the latest residual energy mix for that particular country I would say that in terms of the what it will do is reduce the actual Impacts that we calculated assuming that the grid does get more efficient over time Because the operational part is so Outweighs all the other parts by orders of magnitude. It still means operation is going to be the key part of iteration systems Yeah, brilliant and I think Edward it we've got yeah Eduardo says what what becomes the predominant element with a fully decarbonized grid and then Emily's asking And how many of the challenges you've cited would be addressed by requiring that vendors provide EPD So two quick ones and I think we've got time for those if that's all right Yeah, I think it would be helpful. Okay, I start with EPD's I think that's going to be very helpful I do I do worry a little bit about it at this stage because Life-cycle assessment modeling is challenging and the data and you know, you need to be sure that the Companies are providing accurate models because if you're going to use it as part of the tendering decision, then it needs to be You need to have a certain level of quality control, but yes, ultimately, I think it should be and I think hopefully it will be and Sorry, the second question was the predominant element. I still think actually operation is still a predominant element because even if your grid is completely Carbon-neutral you're still paying for electricity. Anyway, so operational control flexibility and duration system is key but let's say in terms of impacts and I still think it's up. It's still key for other reasons I might be going to Jay, but if you if we ignore the operation element, then we're talking about Indicative duration technology defabrication and The steam manufacturer to key parts transport. I think Almost in almost all circumstances is going to be a very small component of the technologies Outputs and total impacts not just current Brilliant. Thanks so much. Oh, and that was fantastic and with that I we will pass across to Maria. Thanks Yes Hello everyone My name is Maria and LCA and Sustainability Specialist at Campbell today. I'm going to present this study Entitled LCA in energy and resource recovery upgrades the Varga project And this study was actually part of my PhD project that I did that I carried out during my PhD studies at DTU and Varga stands for Actually water research recovery facility and it's an acronym for the Danish word of water research recovery facility So a little bit about myself. So just briefly so I'm departmental engineer I have a double master basically one for from the Polytechnic team Lano and another one from the Technical University of Denmark after my studies I have been a research assistant for two years at the Technical University of Denmark and then I carried out a PhD This PhD was actually industrially funded by these three Danish water and wastewater utilities or it was a then transit as well and by of us Basically the PhD focused on life cycle assessment and social economic assessment of water Wastewater treatment and research recovery facilities and in addressing whether we are moving towards more sustainable plans and It's been almost a year so I've been also working full-time as a LCA specialist at family so The reason why I talked about LCA and I actually use and apply LCA in the wastewater treatment Plans is because we are transitioning to this concept of water research recovery facilities So basically our ways with the treatment is not anything more only to Clean the effluent but also we aim to recover resources for example resources in terms of energy like biogas electricity heat but also nutrients and also we are trying Water research recovery facilities to minimize greenhouse gas emissions as much as possible So we tend to Think that circular plans are actually sustainable Although it's very good to be circular. We also need to pay to pay attention on Basically transitioning to circular plans by not increasing for example energy consumption or chemicals and we need therefore decision support tools that are able to catch this trade-offs and One of these methodologies, of course life cycle assessment So now I'm very lucky because before me Owen has explained about life cycle assessment But briefly I can tell you also a little bit about it So with the life cycle assessment we perform an environmental assessment and typically we tend to use an approach There is a cradle to grave approach with this approach We invent or I all material consumption and the missions along with the life cycle of the system from material generation construction operation and final disposal and dismantling and Also is very important that we also take into account all the impacts that are coming from the transportation for example And as I told you all the emissions to diet diet emissions to the environment Especially for example very relevant relevant for a treatment plans the emissions to water When we move towards water resource recovery facilities, basically we are also Generating by-products or co-products For example, we are producing energy or we are Recovered as large as a fertilizer and therefore it's also important that we take into account the co-products in our LCA That means for example by taking into account of the avoided Conventional production of the co-products for example avoided convention and energy heat and electricity production. So this also is Is taken into account in the LCA So what we do with the LCA and what I try to do in this study is basically to move from Only carbon footprint to a broader range of environmental indicators And as you can see here, this is just an example Basically LCA can provide a range of around 16 to 18 Environmental impact categories. So it's quite a broad environmental footprint. We are looking at And why is that well, we need to avoid what we call carbon-time nutrition Because indeed we might have some trade-offs or benefits that we cannot see only in the carbon footprint But we need a more holistic assessment and This holistic assessment has to also include for example the resource consumptions as consumption for example of metals and minerals or Fossil resources, but also the land use or the eutrophication So this is why I like LCA is because we can actually Provide a very holistic assessment and when we move and when we assess what the resource recovery facilities We can really answer the question. Is this alternative better or more sustainable than another alternative technology? And I mentioned the PhD. I also wanted to tell you that All that I'm talking about today is actually published I've published also other paper papers. The first one was focused on carbon footprint. The second one that I'm talking today is about life cycle assessment and economic economic assessment of water resource recovery facilities and I also focused on sludge paralysis where we combine the LCA cost and cost-benefit analysis And then finally because sustainability is not only environmental sustainability We also try to include social technical aspects In the evaluation of water resource recovery facilities The reason why I mentioned this is because most of this work is open source And I hope that you will download the articles and read it and then maybe get back to me if you have any questions Also, another reason is because today, unfortunately, I cannot go through all the results of this paper too So I just chose the most relevant ones, but if you have any questions, please get back to me So the question that I'm trying to answer today is really how can life cycle assessment support decision makers in selecting waste water treatment and resource recovery technologies And I try to answer this question by showing this example the retrofitting of an existing waste water treatment plant to a water resource recovery facility specifically I'm focusing on a treatment plant in Copenhagen, which is operated by the biophos This plant has a capacity of 400,000 Personal development and is a radial energy recovery plant That means that they are already exporting biogas or biomethane and heat But in 2025 the plan is that this plant becomes even more Basically it will be transitioned to a research recovery facility completely And by completely, I mean that the operator is going to act on the water line by installing real-time measurement and control of Nitrous oxide emission They will also have pre-filtration technologies in order to increase the production of the Yeah, the production of primary sludge and therefore enhance the virus production and then also anamox In order to reduce the nitrogen load to the aeration And in the sludge line instead what it was evaluated It was basically evaluated the combination of upgrading the biogas with biomethamnation plus Hydrogen production that means that we can generate more biomethane And in the waste management part Instead the idea is to recover phosphorus sand and other metals from sludge ashes because biophos Currently is incinerated in the sludge and therefore it could be nice to valorize The phosphorus that is contained in the ash As you can see this system is very complex So we are moving towards very complex facilities and is not enough to say we want to recover These resources we also need to evaluate if we are doing it in a sustainable way So I'm trying to answer this question are these technologies sustainable by applying life cycle assistance And today I want to show you just Two graphs So basically I want to show you the carbon footprint results and then The results of the depletion of resources the minerals and metals It's because here we can really see the trade-offs So I have to explain you a little bit the graphs so the positive numbers mean Mean a burden for the environment I mean that it's not good for the environment while the negative impacts mean avoided impacts So if we Look at this line here You can see that if we start from the base on treatment plant and we increase The number of research recovery technologies in the plant then you can see that more or less we are Decreasing the carbon footprint Of course, there are some variation and also you can see that the most contributing parameters here in red is nitrogen oxide Which is basically Decreased as soon as we implement more monitoring and control of nitrogen oxide with the sensors But what I want you to show is to focus on this alternative. For example, alternative number three In this alternative we are also producing hydrogen And combining it with co2 from an aerobic digestion In order to produce more biomethane So as you can see here in the carbon footprint graph, we can see that we are actually decreasing the carbon footprint with an additional 20 percent But when you look at the depletion of resources Instead we see an opposite result. That means that we are the increasing the impacts of Minerals and and metals depletion by 93 percent That is due to the fact that The assumption is that hydrogen production is based on wind meaning the electricity required for the hydrogen production is based on Wind therefore renewable energy Which has a positive effect on the carbon footprint, but on the other side has a negative effect on the minerals and metals So in order to counter counterbalance this negative impacts in the From the hydrogen production then in the next alternative. We have evaluated the phosphorus recovery from ash In this case in the carbon footprint here You cannot really see an improvement or they small so not significant significant But when we look at the other graph So the graph of the minerals and metals then you can see that you are actually avoiding quite a lot of Impacts because conventional production of phosphorus is based on phosphate rocks So here you are able to see what is actually Decreased in carbon footprint and what is increasing the impacts of the minerals and metals and what are the technologies that work best Overall, I have to see that when we Implement all the technology all together then we are actually in general decreasing the impacts compared to our based on funds So these are just two examples from the results But I have many more for example the graph on the freshwater retrophication, which I do not show it here But it's in the paper But beyond the Beyond the environmental impact assessment. We also have done an economic assessment And there is also a difference. First of all, I want to Show you that as soon as we implement more research recovery technologies, we are also making Making our plant more extensive in a way meaning that Implementing research recovery is not cheap, but there are some technologies which are More cost-effective than others. For example the sensors for nitrous oxide measurement and control Here we have calculated an abatement cost of two euro per tonne CO2 equivalent avoided So which is which is a great number So it's not very expensive, but it's also very cost-effective And then we have other technologies such as the production of hydrogen coupled with the biomechanation Which is actually quite expensive per tonne CO2 equivalent avoided as well as the perpetration So if really if what the utilities have to move towards what the research recovery facility is probably they also need subsidies And yeah, because if this is also a quite expensive So I just want to give you some conclusions So in general from the lifecycle assessment that we carried out here We could see that retrofitting abadement treatment plan to a research recovery facility in general decreased in decreased impacts There are of course exceptions. That's mostly due for example to the addition of chemical consumption that we Generated and that impacted for example freshwater electrification But in general most of the impact categories show an improvement And what really worked in this case? It was not really the single technology But the interplay of the different types of technologies So for example, if the hydrogen with the biomechanation decreased the climate change At the same time increased the demand of mineral resources and therefore by coupling the phosphorus recovery technology We could offset the increase of the of impacts in Depletion the depletion of our biotic resources categories Then the economic value as I told you the economic value decreased Compared to the baseline So it is expensive But at the same time there are some technologies like the real-time monitoring monitoring of control which Which did not significantly increase the belt the decreased economic value and they were cost effective Especially if we compare it by how many tons of CO2 equivalent they were reducing So This was my last slide and I want to thank you for your attention And I also want to thank all the project partners You can see here in the slides and also my workplace from book for funding the time that's been here at the webinar Yes, thanks. Thanks a lot Thanks. Thanks so much maria. Um, and we have a few questions also A few minutes for questions too. Um, there's one here and I think you've perhaps answered it already but the the um That increase from the materials use it was the was it the um Minerals and metals for wind turbine production. Emily's asking Yes, it was yes It's exactly that. Yeah Thanks, and there was a short answer, but yes, the what's called it Yeah, and um, one other one other question. I had is the um the choice Oh, you you mentioned some of those ranges and I guess with regards to uncertainty and also, um Oh and touched on this too is you know, these these these analyses are complex and challenging What is the um in your in your view? What is the best way to address like how do you address uncertainty? I guess from a utility perspective or a practical who aren't perhaps, you know, doing a phd on this What what would be your recommendations there? And what's the best way to try to um make keep this science-based? Um With the tools that are available That's a very good question because indeed uncertainty is uh is high in some of these studies So from my perspective if I look at this study What I did is to really uh have quite a lot of discussion with the water utilities and also with the project partners here involved So I tried to validate the data by asking directly What is your experience? Can you provide some data from another similar case study? For example So that's a way of addressing um And trying to validate the data that that you use in a way Actually, most of the data I used in this case are I would say well validated still there are some uncertainties. For example, the methane potential is Yeah, I was a little bit. Yeah theoretical estimate Uh, but in general I feel that by asking, um You you can get actually quite a lot. Um And then uh typically you have to make several iterations Um, you I think I can't remember how many iterations of this study are done but there is always Something new that comes up after After you discuss the results with the with the collaborators in the project. Yeah Thanks very much Maria and just to be clear then so the data the inputs They were piloting all of these they were piloting all of these resource recovery Yeah treatment trains, weren't they or most of them? Is that right? For example the Real-time measurements and control. They are based on real data, so the real measurements and I talked a lot with nickels and unisons and I got data from him So they were actually real data And also I was lucky enough because at the same time they published The study on the monitoring and the control strategies, which I could refer in the in the in the article So, yeah, I was real data And the biomethane the other resource recovery they were piloting some of these as well So some of this is based on actual they were all part of the lighthouse project bar go I think weren't they for example the biomethanation they had a pilot We did a trip here. I think now I don't want to mention Very companies, but yeah, yeah, brilliant That's what happened and I got results from reports which were published. Yeah Fantastic. Look, thank you so much. Um, very much great another great presentation and with that, um We will pass across to Jacob. Thanks very much and Inga. Thank you very much both Thank you so much Amanda. Um, my name is Jacob. I'm working The consultant company called in bedain Who's doing work within the entire water circle and primarily In the scandinavian countries I'm also here on behalf of Inga healthcare Jensen who's working at or who's when who's Which is the second largest utility company in danmark And she's the project director for all whose reward, uh, which is the Very exciting and groundbreaking project. Um, I will be talking about today And I will especially focus on On sustainability as a driver for all whose reward and tell about how sustainability has been a part of the project from the from the very beginning Yeah, and it actually goes back around six years where The utility made this reward of prospectus and they actually invited the entire water sector from danmark and and beyond into To come and have a talk to see what they were doing and and to hear about the The aims the ideas the dreams of this all whose reward And the idea is that they are to build a new wastewater treatment plant or a waste resource recovery facility by 2028 with a capacity of 480,000 pe And with the possibility of increasing that capacity to 600,000 pe And three of their old wastewater treatment plants have to be decommissioned in this in this project also There was a huge focus on resource recovery sustainability and innovation and you can see some of the the pictures here that One of the aims were to make this this project um Rewarded to to be one of the most resort all the world's most resource efficient wastewater treatment plant and they want To make something that everybody could look at and be inspired by yeah, and They did a the utility made this tender where they wanted to create this process consortium Who could work together with the utility and together with the contractor to to reach these? these goals and aims of the project and we in Vidane went together with Royal Haskell and dhv and kwr from the netherlands as a process consortium working together with oswen And together with the contractor called oslif if you can change to the next slide, please yeah, so we together Are working right now to to try to to make these these promises and to create the most resource efficient wastewater treatment plant in the world um from the very beginning we were looking a lot into To not only creating a wastewater treatment plan for 2028 or for 2040 But also for 2050 2060, how could we look into a future? Where would we where would we be in in? not only A near future, but also looking a little bit more ahead And and we did a lot of work on this and looking into what should we Try to embrace already now For us to be able to be to be ready for the for the future Problems or challenges that would come and these are three of the things three scenarios or guiding stars for the entire project that we developed The first one was a scenario called stay cool where we looked a lot into the the whole Yeah, greenhouse gas emission trying to to reduce greenhouse gases But also see if we could do carbon capture in order to really embrace this this theme also as I already mentioned resources We created this scenario called resourceful in order to look at wastewater treatment plans not only as a place for reducing nutrients to the receiving water bodies, but also to see if we could make some valuable products that could be used in society And then also very importantly the last scenario talking about valuing water We're looking into a future future where water could be a resource that that is not Yeah, that we that we have less of at least the clean the clean water We should look more into reuse of water. Maybe we could use the Treated wastewater for for something better than just discharging into the environment It also looks into How we can reduce the emissions to the receiving water bodies and and make biodiversity and stuff like that so there was also very Very interesting part of the the beginning of the project to to try and look a little bit more holistic on it and Look at the perspectives within the The the whole water circle We also worked a lot on on the sustainable development goals Used that as a starting point for introducing sustainability into the project And it was also used as a as a common language for all the partners in the project Always van has been working with The stgs for quite some time and they actually certified in in four of the stgs And we look further into Specifically for this project for always rewater could we could we do more here and we actually added Four more stgs that we are working actively with within the projects Yeah, next slide, please We also looked into Something called innovation challenges and this was actually something that always van already Was working on from the very beginning of the project in the prospectus They were looking in how can we Solve different challenges that we have in society and some of that could be non technology specific It could be about how do we integrate the wastewater treatment plant in the In the city, how do we get the citizens to come and visit and and learn from this This facility and it could be from the technological side With how to reduce nutrients into the receiving water bodies how to Reduce you to emissions energy consumption and stuff like that And we worked a lot with these innovation challenges and actually tried to take them from challenges into Specific project goals that we could set up and then all the time try to evaluate whether we actually Yeah, could reach these these goals and thereby Yeah, live up to these innovation challenges One of the tools that we have used in this And that in that part of the project was this Model called sustained which you see in the in the left-hand side. It's a iterative process Where we start out by By mapping the issue if we're talking about environmental sustainability, for example Then we're looking into what are all the consumptions at the at the wastewater treatment plants? What are all the emissions? Then we we evaluate all these emissions prioritized and based on the prioritization we then Set specific goals and one of the goals I showed at the top-hand right-hand corner setting a goal especially for CO2 reduction, so This one says how do we achieve energy and CO2 neutrality in the water cycle throughout Mercedes-Bau catchment? So trying to be much more specific on what we actually want to receive and when we have that Goal set then we can start to implement or put on different technologies To see if we then can live up to these Live up to these goals And that's an as I said an iterative process because you might not always get what you want By implementing certain technologies. Maybe you need to go back and rethink or see if you can Implement something else or do some optimizations in the systems Yeah, so what we did for this specific project in in all whose re-order we were looking into this Big bat we call that catalog the best available technologies Which actually both includes bad technologies, but also includes more newer technologies, which are not Which doesn't have a very high technology readiness level, but could be something interesting for A near future. We looked into this catalog with more than 100 technologies And then through a series of workshops Trying to narrow down and try to put technologies together To build these technological concepts that you see in the in the bottom right-hand corner here We actually ended up with four different technological concepts And these four technological concepts we then had to look into a broader evaluation method in order to see Which of these concepts were actually performing better for this? Yeah, for what we want for the rewater plant in 2028 and one of the One of the tools evaluation tools that we used is Life-cycle assessment, which you see on the next hand slide next slide Um, and I'm not going to talk about that because you and and maria has has done a great job Introducing you to this just to say that we did a full lca on these four different technological concepts in order to see What was the environmental performance of these different concepts? We also Apart from the life cycle assessment. We look even broader in the next slide. You can see At table with uh, this is a multi criteria analysis that we used as a evaluation method As you can see we both looked into the environmental sustainability where we used to use the lca as an evaluation tool We looked into economical sustainability look both at opex capex also did some net present value models to calculate Uh, and then we also looked a little bit into social sustainability and some technical criteria And for the technical criteria You can see them here in the bottom of the the table complexity Adaptability modularization and flexibility Here we we used an expert evaluation group To to look into that because it's very difficult to to quantify. So here's more like a qualitative assessment of these criteria This was actually what we we've done a lot of work on in the beginning to do look at these technical Things to choose the technologies for the rewarder project Um in the next phase of the project we will focus more on or just if you can go one slide back, please Uh, we'll look a lot more into uh landscaping green areas wetlands covered plants Biodiversity but also a bit more into to health and uh and safety So when we're not we're not done with all these things and and this iterative process where we want to all the time optimize Optimize everything within sustainability Yeah, and the next slides show something that we have also done on the on the side of this entire work that I've already presented We've been looking into a Bream certification. So a certification scheme within the environmental sustainability Where you look at eight different categories Um Which contains around 250 criteria that has to be evaluated and and this is is quite some work but it really it's uh, it's a very good process because it It gets you to think it gets you to uh, make sure that you don't miss anything You need to go through all of these criteria But it's not just a checklist you also really get to think and see if you can actually Do things better and that's also of course one of the The the things that you want from this that you can all the time improve The project within sustainability also it acts like documentation for for the project that you have actually done what you could In terms of sustainability. So it's it's something that could be of interest Especially on on these quite large projects Yeah, next slide please Yeah, just a few pictures here and on on some of the work that is it's ongoing But we have to be a little bit more specific on this right now There's also an architect which is uh in the project now. There's Henning Larsen architects And they're working a lot on this the landscaping the the areas on the wastewater treatment facility. How can we Um, how can we make it a green lush? How can we make people to interact? How can we leave areas for biodiversity? So that's also a large part of the of the project Um, as I said, we've been going on for The ideas or the ideas go even much more back than than six years ago, but that was where it actually really took Took speed. If you take the next slide, please Yeah, so we've learned a lot now. We still have a few more years before we We are we are building But we have to to be ready by around 2028 some of the conclusions you can say that We want to tell with this story is that it's very important that you Build sustainability into the projects. I mean from day one And it's not something that you start thinking about when when you have to to build something It's really much something that you use in the planning phase um You really need to work systematic and holistic During the entire project as an execution Uh, you could consider this as I said the premium or some other certification scheme that could actually be a good process for the Implementing sustainability and also a good documentation tool. Um I didn't mention a lot about resource recovery We've been working a lot of this on this in the the project looking at many different possible Resources to to take out from the wastewater from the wastewater or the sludge We've developed different models But we look into resource maturity index Look into resource recovery potential How does this look now? How does it look in the in the near future and and and what could be interesting for this specific wastewater treatment plan to to go for? um Yeah, and now we are moving into the more specific design phases and and the focus is still on sustainability innovation so So these uh, yeah this about sustainability really it's it's going to be with the project All the time also when the plant is is implemented and and being operated Um, so really, uh, yeah ground breaking project from in in the Danish wastewater sector Yeah, and thank you very much. Thank you to the to the partners and and thank you also to uh to inge The the project director Thank you. Thanks very much Jacob. Yeah, thank you. Um, and that was yeah really fascinating practical example of as you say a really innovative project that's trying to do the best absolutely the best by sustainability. Um, what's I guess, um Yeah, if anyone has questions, please raise them in the q&a box but um when I one um, I had and then we'll go to perhaps a general discussion and reflections, but um when when we look at the um the sort of You know that the lca's that have been presented also by Owen and um, Maria, which have obviously been founded on academic, you know Studies and um in Maria's case, you know a very substantive phd What do you see as the main challenges like you're a um, you know, you're a practitioner in uh for nvm and um, This is a really nice example of how as practitioners we can apply lca But you know, it's not going to be in in the same way as a for your phd So I just wondered what what are your reflections on that or um, what what did you learn along the way or how did you engage? I mean, maybe actually there was academics involved in this. I'm not really sure. So yeah be interested Interested on what how it happened in practice to inspire other utilities Yeah, good. Uh, good question. Um, I know Maria's work and I know that I mean it can it can take years to do A good lca and look into the really look into the data maybe make some new data sometimes it can take A very long time and of course you need to on a project like this you need to to Be pragmatic and and and and look into what is what is the what is the aim of what you're doing? and of course we sometimes have to to to do um More quick and dirty work compared to what maria has been presenting today But all the time look at what what are we actually looking at for this? specific purpose we were looking into Comparing different concepts So sometimes we could say that okay this part of the the plant or this part of the plant they actually More or less the same so all the time and then we didn't have to to model that part so all the time look into do we need to go into Very much of detail for this all the time balancing and and and trying to to figure out what is the most significant processes And then go about it like that so so Maybe sometimes cutting corners Because you cannot I mean You cannot spend three years in a project like this And when you have smaller projects, I mean you you need to do some much more assumptions and and And maybe make the system a little bit more simple Yeah, I hope that uh somewhat answered your question Yeah, no, I think this is great and I guess in time I mean this is very much still ongoing so in time you got there will be some Published information as well that I think will be really nice of people to draw upon Yeah, yeah, yeah, no brilliant. Thank you. All right Well, there's there's a few final slides that I just wanted to To talk through where really we've tried to actually summarize the the Or bring in a lot of the a lot of what we've talked about today But also provide a bit of a utility specific greenhouse gas Assessment or a document a white paper that explains what greenhouse gases we should be considering But then also going beyond just considering carbon and what else Should we be thinking about and in particular providing some signposts to exactly these life cycle assessment approaches That we've heard about today. So this is a this is a document that was prepared by it's available online and it was I guess prepared by a working group within the climate smart utilities greenhouse gas monitoring subgroup Which I have the pleasure to lead and so a small group of us from From that subgroup got together and very much inspired by what we've heard today and by the Nordic principles That we started off the webinar series with But in particular the Diving into process emissions given how relevant we know they are but also how we're using Carbon in in wider decision-making. We've we've developed this A publication so it's a a fairly short white paper Although it's probably and the idea is it's aimed at utilities to really try to provide some practical Examples the sort of best evidence we we have as a group of practitioners And just if next slide, please So that's available online and Owen who we've heard from today Has that was was a lead contributor to this and we very much reference the work of of Maria of of Jacob and the Many other projects as well as the best available research around for example process emissions, but actually all scope one two and three emissions for greenhouse gas accounting specifically in water resource recovery facilities So I just wanted to say thanks to the contributors who were in the Working group that we spun out of our subgroup. This is an open subgroup and the working group was also open So anyone who wanted to be part of it Currently we're preparing another white paper around nitrous oxide monitoring. So if anyone is interested to be part of this also I think It's open to yeah, I think I were members, but I think also we very much welcome contacts with With other global organizations. So I'd say we would always find a way of getting you involved But thanks to the contributors, uh, Owen Connell, uh, Alexi Daniel Martin, Corinne and Liu and um, very much. Thank you to To benedetta brander and Charles from the eyewear team who helped us bring this document to life Thanks very much. Next slide, please And I just wanted to very briefly Talk through just give people a little bit of an overview of it and really it's designed to provide some information but also signpost to a lot of the the good case studies and The best available information that that we see So that's the idea of that was to bring that together into a document And so we we talk about the emissions of greenhouse gas emissions. Sorry the emissions of greenhouse gases from wastewater management or water resource recovery facilities There's a few detailed considerations there around Components of those and in particular a section on the importance of scope one process emissions We heard a lot in this series. We've had a specific webinar on nitrous oxide and one on methane And in the past we've also run some master classes on these but I think again we heard today from Well from Owen on the importance of aeration and we know aeration has a very significant link to to nitrous oxide production and then we heard also from Maria we saw that that very significant green bar, which was the impact of The or the benefit of introducing advanced control to minimize nitrous oxide production Which was so important relative to all of the all the other wonderful resource recovery Options that were explored actually that is so fundamental So it's really important that we apply the best science as we can As practitioners there, so we've tried to focus on that in this guide And then we go on to the topic of life cycle assessment and Owen's really written and Contributed to a really good section on that and referencing very much referencing Maria's workers as well and then we Yeah, we reflect a little bit on What this all means So just next slide, please. So this is this is the table of contents and we produced a really I think what is a very nice diagram and thanks to the Iowa team for For supporting this Because it's it's one of the more comprehensive one of the most comprehensive ones. I think that That I've seen around scope one two and three emissions specifically to Water resource recovery facilities. So we focus this on wastewater And it really lists lists off the key emissions there And in a similar format to the greenhouse gas protocol diagram for folks who are who are familiar with this And next slide, please So just another few highlights. There's also some other example in this case carbon footprints and system boundaries for Drinking water wastewater distribution collection systems and Biogas production that so we focus. We highlight two utilities Bergen water and also Husband, so there's some this is just a link it within the white paper. There's a link to the Iowa climate smart utilities Landing page and there you can also find some specific information some more information and case studies in this case from the folks at Bergen water who were very Very much involved in supporting the workshop last year in Copenhagen and really presented some of these diagrams, which I think we thought were just really worth sharing because that's an example of a really progressive utility Who are really trying to take account for In this case, the full carbon impacts of their various Water water cycles. Next slide, please and then We also have what I think is a nice diagram and a big thanks to our husband and Morton in particular for For helping helping well sharing this with us, but um, and this you know, we think shows a nice progressive example of greenhouse gas accounting by a Water utility so we see that division of scope one two and three emissions And then we see, you know, I think the key word is potential avoided emissions And the need to keep these separate and to be clear that We yeah, we really need to work on of Really minimizing those emissions as everyone needs to get to to zero emissions and of course trying to maximize the avoided emissions, but the focus very much should be on on minimizing The our scope on two and three emissions and when we look at that gray bar there Maybe we should come up with the similar the same color for nitrous oxide in all of this work But um that gray bar is nitrous oxide. Um, the orange is methane. So this is This is based on some measurement A quite extensive measurement work that our husband who we just heard from of course with Jacob and Inga Have done. So I think this is a nice again a reiteration of how important those nitrous oxide emissions are When we think about our greenhouse gas emissions. So that's also in the guide You'll find this and next slide, please And then Maria alluded to this and we've um, there was actually a really nice graphic that was developed by that I think a few people will have seen on the web somewhere And we've actually adapted this and and we've added if you compare the two you'll see what we've added But I think we've added some nice things in there And I guess it's just a reminder that um as as Maria alluded alluded to and as all the speakers have referred to today We we need to think beyond carbon emissions. Of course this You know, it is absolutely critical that we act on um on climate But when we think about the the co the other factors and the co benefits and The other yeah, all of the other sustainability indicators We really, you know, we really need to be thinking holistically and tools like life cycle assessment that we've heard about today Allow us to try to do this, you know that it's not we can't perfectly apply them each time But at least we can start to have the conversations We need to that really help will help us make the decisions that are required Next slide, please And then just to just to finish up on I mean we called this webinar From process emissions to planetary boundaries. I mean, I think um, I don't if people are familiar with the planetary boundaries Concept it was developed by the Stockholm Resilience Institute and a number of really eminent earth sites um Leaders global leaders including um, Johann Rockstrom And it has been I think it was developed in 2009 and it really seeks to I think Well, it seeks to define a safe operating space for humanity within the biosphere that we have and I think it's quite striking when we look at the um The nine planetary boundaries of which we are Transgressing six of them and this update was just released a few weeks ago the 2023 update But when we when we look at the life cycle impact categories that we've heard Quite a bit about today And I know we haven't dived into the the detail of exactly the definitions of these impact categories But um, they align really really nicely, you know, not unexpectedly with this planetary boundaries framework where we we have Climate change we have novel entities which are things like PFAS and microplastics human created Uh things that that that stay that are persistent in the environment. We have Biodiversity biosphere integrity. We have land use System change we have water planetary boundaries are both fresh water use and green water That's water that's available for for plants We've heard quite a bit about nutrients today And we see we're really in the red when it comes to nitrogen and phosphorus And of course there's a link with things like nitrogen recovery and nitrous oxide production there And then we've also got the the ones that we haven't yet transgressed ocean acidification aerosol loading and and the only positive story which I think is the stratospheric ozone depletion where we have actually um stopped using the um the the pollutants that are causing this That that caused this so we yeah, we need to think very similarly about this in terms of fossil fuels I think so I guess I just wanted to yeah, we've we've mentioned this in the white paper and I think it's quite a also quite a complex Concept, but I think it aligns nicely with the what we've been discussing today and it's um, it's something that's worth Reading up on and there's been an interesting paper Which we will we can circulate in the minutes in the in the follow-up for this webinar which Actually tries to take it down to a bioregional scale and I think that's a really interesting thought Along with what we've heard today. So with that I think just the final one just as a reminder we There's we'll also share the links to these documents But um, we've got the the Nordic principles document, which we mentioned at the beginning the white paper, which I've just discussed When it comes to these really important emissions of nitrous oxide and methane, there's a much more detailed book that was published by Iowa also and And a number of the global leaders contributed to this that's also available open source That quantification of modeling a future greenhouse gas emissions And then there was a series as well as a series that we've just finished now with this final webinar on the really Nordic lessons around greenhouse gas accounting and wider Life cycle life cycle considerations. We also have a webinar series that was last year That was a masterclass on the back of the the book publication and that was much more of a deep dive into nitrous oxide And methane emissions, but all of these are available online and we will share the links as we post the recording for this webinar Uh, so I think that was all um, I think that was all I wanted to say. Um, I think the next slide is Probably what's coming up, but I guess just um, yeah Maybe if all of the panelists were happy to come back on briefly we've we've got um, just under 10 minutes left and I just wondered We don't have any questions. I think that's because We've had lots of put lots of people on the call But I think um, there's there's probably lots of questions everyone has but I I always find this is quite a lot to digest And these new approaches aren't you know, aren't the ones that we're working with every day in our day to day roles Um, so I guess maybe what I will do is ask each of the panelists to just reflect a little bit on what we've discussed today and where you see, um, you know, what should we uh Yeah, as a sector as a water sector and as climate, you know, climate smart utilities or supporting climate smart utilities What do we really need to take? What are the sort of take-home messages from this? Um, if that's a reasonable ask and I'm going to start with Um, I guess we could go in order of presentations. Sorry. So sorry. I want you're up Okay, no problem Yeah, I think one of the kind of questions are You know teams that came up was you know, how how can it be? How can what we talked about today be applied and used by utilities and practitioners? I think all three presentations gave examples of that But I think maybe the question In a way should be how will it be applied by practitioners and utilities because I think it it will have to be so in the case of the one I talked about the we were required to give Uh an embodied carbon statement now Um, we went down the life cycle analysis approach because from from the company's point of view They also want to be able to look at all the other impacts and Be able to use the the outcomes in the model to actually improve Both their design process to look at where they can reduce material usage and also contact suppliers, etc To maybe influence them to improve where they can in terms of efficiency. So Uh, so I guess my take home message is that while and I think Jacob might have mentioned this that My life cycle assessment might be used in every single solitary case And while the depth into which you go into this will vary between, you know, smaller and larger projects I think it's kind of inevitable that it will have these types of approaches will have to be used And so I guess, um, whether you're an industry academia or in utilities you are going to have to Um give resources to upscaling people. Um, who can do this type of work Brilliant. Thanks maria Yes, and so I actually, um signed with what oh and I said um, so I think we will do more and more of these analysis because Uh, I don't think we we can afford anymore to just think In terms of economy in terms of financial values So in the future, I think the clients if I can say like that Let's say the water utilities will be asking for these analysis and we need to provide this type of analysis for them And also I'm thinking in terms of a future for example co2 tax If such a tax will be enforced then we will be Oblige to do this and therefore we need to be prepared for it. So I don't think actually um We are so far away from from from from it meaning that it will happen and And then I'm thinking that it is true that these analysis like lca Are complex And they require a level of Knowledge I would say but I also agree with you Amanda that it's not that each time We need a phd. Uh, you know, otherwise we cannot do these types of of analysis and provide value for for what the utilities But I think that what yagab was saying about About cutting the corners So it's it's exactly true because we need to cut the corners in certain situations Especially when we do not know the performance of a specific technologies But in order to do that we also need to be able to at least once Do this very specific analysis and understand what is important. For example, you know, uh, one, sorry Has made this analysis on the aviation And now we know what is important. Um, so in order to kind of Yeah Remove from the analysis some parameters. We also need specific analysis And experience with with lca So and then a third thing I would say that in order to make it more Um, digestible what is important for me is not much about the results. Of course, it is important But it's also how you use the results and how you are transparent about the assumptions that you may So you can cut the corner, but then you also have to write. Okay here I've made a big assumption and in the next iteration And there is more budget and time than me to put more focus and emphasis on this parameter Yeah, I'm actually very optimistic. I think we will get there Brilliant. Thanks and Jacob Yeah, thanks now, yeah, I'm also I'm working in the in the Danish water sector and I can see that that it's actually It's starting now to to be more and more common to For the utilities but also for the consultants to use life cycle assessment and also multi-criteria analysis and it's It's very positive I think it's quite difficult at the moment because it's there's so many ways of of doing it and it's very hard Sometimes to to describe How you did a study and and what are you actually reading out from the study? but I can see already now that that the more people than work and work that The more people that work with this and the most studies out there It's getting easier and easier So I think it's it's it's here to stay these kind of evaluation tools because it's tools that I mean to help you form a basis for decisions And that that's we we need to use more of these types of tools I think and then as I said already I think we need to to think in sustainability from from the very beginning as early as as possible And sometimes maybe also think whether Whether we need to build Or whether we can postpone investments Because I mean that that could really save a lot of emissions if if we Maintained some wastewater treatment plants if we can do that instead of building a new plant So that's really in the planning stage What what can we do to to to do make sustainable decisions? yeah Thanks, brilliant. I think this is a really nice place to yeah to leave it and um I think it's a challenge for all of us and I think we've had some Yeah, really progressive experience in this series and the opportunity for all of those listening in and all of those Who will listen in on the recording is to Inform I think inform ourselves and learn and and really do our best to try to bring at least these discussion to the table As we as we work in our day jobs. So thank you huge. Thanks to to Jacob Maria and Owen and And Inga and Anna Katrina who's helped organize this with myself and Jacob and all of the Iowa team Just a few closing slides here on upcoming events as two webinar Or there's one webinar and one meeting there that you are very welcome to Be part of and the link is is there And then a super interesting phd opportunity anyone's feeling like Working in the field of finance in climate resilient water utilities, which is looks fascinating Application deadline is there and there's more information there as well Great great university as well and then a final one. Please join our network of water professionals here's your 20% discount and if you join you can You can always listen to these webinars because they're free, but you can be part of much more as well. So Please think about that and thank you. Yeah, thanks to everyone and and to everyone behind the scenes as well and with that Have a lovely morning or afternoon or evening and um, yeah, we we wish you a Best wishes and thanks for joining