 Thank you for joining us for this online program sponsored by Mechanics Institute. The writer's lunch is a casual and virtual brown bag lunch activity on the third Friday of each month. Look forward to craft discussion and formal presentations on all forms of writing and excellent conversation. My name is Nico Chen and I am the program manager here at Mechanics Institute. I would also like to introduce you to Janice. Can you wave to the crowd? We also have Cheryl and we also have Matthew. We welcome you to our writer's lunch today and for those who are new to Mechanics Institute, welcome. Mechanics Institute was founded in 1854 and is one of San Francisco's most vital literary and cultural centers in the heart of the city. Mechanics Institute features a general interest library, an international chess club, ongoing author and literary programs, and a cinema-lit film series. A recent article in the San Francisco Standard describes us as the coolest library in downtown San Francisco and a remote work sanctuary. Come see this for yourself by joining us for a free tour which happens every Wednesday at noon. We also offer a plethora of free events for our Mechanics Institute members, such as the next storytelling showcase on December 20th. Join us on site in our fourth floor meeting room for an evening of laughter and storytelling. Local author and host of The Moth, Corey Rosen, will host a dynamic night of storytelling developed in his Your Story World told workshops. Come hear stories and jokes being told for the first time with some performers making their stage debut. We also have some exciting new programming coming up in 2024. For those of you who teach our facility workshops as your day jobs, join us for our inaugural Teacher T at Mechanics Institute on Saturday, January 13th. We'll start with an opening reception at 1pm, during which we will network with other educators, participate in hands-on activities, and enjoy light snacks and tea. Starting at 2pm, we'll transition into a thought-provoking book talk in Q&A with Mariah Rankin-Landers and Jessa Bre Moreno from Studio Pathways. Authors of their recently published book, Do Your Lessons Love Your Students, Creative Education for Social Change. Mariah and Jessa will be sharing their insights and experience to enhance your teaching approach. Get inspired and ready to create meaningful connections in your classroom or workshop. Find out more about our wide selection of upcoming programs at Mechanics Institute by going to mylibrary.org. Click on Events in our top menu bar to begin searching and registering for the course or events of your choice. Today's theme for our writer's lunch, and let me make sure to admit everybody into our room again, there we are, is the value of writing retreats. This discussion will include a Q&A with our audience, so remember to add your questions to the chats, and I will read them aloud, and you're welcome to ask questions when the floor opens at 12.40. Please also mark your calendars for the writer's lunch on Friday, January 19th, for the topic, How to Craft a Bio, with Joey Garcia, Jeannie Grossenbacher, and Julian Hamel. This event will be moderated by the one and only Cheryl Jebusé Boute. And I will go on to our bios. Award-winning author and Pushkart Prize nominee Cheryl Jebusé Boute is an Oakland multidisciplinary writer whose autobiographical and fictional short story collections, along with her lyrical and stunning poetry, artfully succeeds in getting across deeper meanings about the politics of race and economics without breaking out of the narrative. An inaugural Oakland poet laureate runner-up, she is also a popular teacher, literary reader, presenter, storyteller, curator, and emcee host for literary and poetry events. Let's give a warm welcome to Cheryl. Next we have Matthew Felix. Matthew Felix is an author, certified life coach, speaker, and podcaster, including former program director and host of the San Francisco Writers Conference Podcasts. Publishers Weekly's Book Life Prize, called his debut novel, A Voice Beyond Reason, a highly crafted gem. His travel collection with open arms topped Amazon's Africa category in its Morocco one four times. In his latest book, Porcelain Travels, won Reader's Favorite Award Gold for Humor and was a forward in these Book of the Year Award finalists. Matthew also edits, designs, publishes, and markets books for other authors. Let's give a warm welcome to the wonderful Matthew Felix. Thank you. Last but not least, we have Janice Cook Newman. Janice Cook Newman is the author of two novels, A Master Plan for Rescue, which was an SF Chronicle best book of the year, and Mary, which was an LA Times Book Prize finalist, as well as USA Today's historical novel of the year. She is also the author of a memoir, The Russian Word for Snow, which has been translated into several languages. Newman is the founder of Lit Camp, a non-profit dedicated to supporting writers and helping them find community. She is also the founder of Page Street, co-working spaces for writers in both San Francisco and Berkeley. In addition, she developed the online platform for writers, Creative Caffeine Daily. Let's give a warm welcome to Janice Cook Newman, and I will now pass the mic over to the wonderful Cheryl Bezebutte. Thank you so much, Nico, and thank you, Janice, and thank you, Matthew. I'm going to jump right in with my first question. And Janice, I'll pose it to you first. What do you see as the major benefits of writing retreats? I'm going to say it's getting out of your house. There is a lot to be said for changing your environment. And going away and separating yourself from the day-to-day of your life. And so a writing retreat, when you pull yourself away from your life, you can turn your attention to your work, to the story of the world you're trying to create there. So I think they're invaluable, actually. I've always done them, my entire writing career. And what about you, Matthew? What do you think the major benefits of writing retreats can be? Well, I agree with Janice that that getting out of your house, and not only getting out of your house, but, and this is implied in what Janice just said, but getting out of your day-to-day life. To me, that is unquestionably the number one benefit, just because it's, you know, it can be, I always say that the biggest challenge for me as a creative isn't inspiration. You know, a lot of people who aren't necessarily creative say, well, how do you get inspired, right? For me, it's finding the time and the space with all the responsibilities and distractions that we have in our day-to-day. That, for me, is always the biggest challenge. So when I go on a retreat, I'm able to get out of my day-to-day life, get away from those distractions and those responsibilities, whether it's for a weekend or a week or a month, and just focus on whether it's starting a new work or finishing a new work. But then I think there are other benefits that depend on the type of retreat that you're taking, right? A lot of times I'll go off by myself and do a solo retreat. Other times I go on group retreats where I might be looking for inspiration or I might be looking to make new connections. I've made so many friends and so many writing colleagues from retreats. And sometimes there's a learning component. Sometimes there are classes at the retreats, right? Sometimes it's just about getting the work done. But circling back, I think the biggest thing is, yeah, just getting out of our day-to-day lives, getting out of our homes and just focusing on the work. Well, let me continue with you, Matthew. Do you think the total isolation retreat is really possible? I mean, the world does enter in. No matter where you are in the world, the world is there. So can you really achieve that total isolation and is it desirable? Yes. I mean, I don't know if you can totally achieve it, but I've had great success in getting to 90%, you know. And, you know, I think it depends where you go. Yeah, if I, as I've done, go to a cabin in the woods and I unplug the Wi-Fi, I'm pretty isolated, you know. I mean, other than the deer and the foxes who might be, you know, coming up to the cabin window. Or what I've done a lot is go overseas to a place where not some place that I'm dying to explore, because that can become a distraction in and of itself, but some place that maybe I know, like I spent a lot of time in Spain and France. So I might go back to some place that I already know, but that I don't know a lot of people. And yeah, you're right, I'm not completely, that's like I said, maybe a 90% sort of thing. If I really want to finish my book, I was in Barcelona and I would stay up from 11 to 3 and 4 and 5 in the morning just cranking my book. I didn't even go to the beach for a month, you know, one time when I went over there because I was so in the zone. So I think a lot of this comes back to also, you know, your work style, right? Yeah. And what the stakes are, you know, for me, when I'm getting close to the end of something, I'm able to stay a lot more focused because the end is within sight. Yeah. So, so is it desirable for me? It's really desirable. But again, some people might start to feel lonely. Some people might need that inspiration and support of their fellow writers. So maybe a group thing, you know, or even two or three going away with two or three writer friends might be better for them. So I think it's what are your objectives? What's your work style? I'm a loner with good social skills. So I, especially if I've got a project to work on that really does work for me, but it's not going to work for everybody. Yeah. I see that. So, so Janice, what about you? Do you think that total isolation is possible and or desirable? I think sometimes it's very desirable and it is possible. I know one place we could all drive to. It is down in Big Sur. It is a silent monastery. And it's known as new Kamaldoli or the hermitage. No Wi-Fi, no cell phone. You don't have to think about your food because the monks make the food and leave it in the kitchen. There is no talking. I have gone there on my own and I've also brought groups there and I think it's a wonderful resource. It's also very reasonable. And every room has a view, an obstructive view of the ocean and the desk and power and that is all you need. And so I actually, I think it was enlightening the last time I was there. I didn't realize how obsessively I checked my email. Right. And then suddenly I had like all this time. Yeah, until you didn't, you didn't know how. Yeah. Exactly. So I do think it's there. I think if you were disciplined and as Matthew said, your work style. And, or you are in a final draft where you need to hold a whole book in your head at the same time. Those solo retreats in a very isolated place like that, I think are really great. Well, you do have to, yeah, go ahead. Oh, go finish your point. I was going to say you do just have to like your own company. Yeah, that's very important. So we've talked a bit about, you know, people doing retreats that Matthew you can travel. You have Janice you have a place you can go to you can drive to what about the writer who doesn't have the resources to do all of those things. I wonder how you can treat within yourself. And when you can't get out of your house, any, any tricks of the trade for that that you can advise people about Janice. I think I would have more credibility if I've ever been able to do that for myself. I'm not sure I have. I would say if I'm sure it's possible, I have not been very good at that. My house is too distracting. But I think if you thought about a house swap. If you thought about a house sitting so that you, you're not spending money but you are getting out of your, your usual environment. I still think that that would at least make it easier for you. I don't know Matthew have you ever tried it, like on your own. Well, yeah, one of the things that I've done sort of when I want to work at home not necessarily a full fledged retreat but when I was working nine to five before I went freelance, and was trying to nonetheless still progress on my creative endeavors my novel at the time. What I would do to create sort of a mini retreat each week because I knew I had to allocate that time and I'm not a morning person I'm not someone who could get up and work before work is every Sunday. I set the expectation with all of my friends and family, I am not available on Sundays. And that includes so I created a cocoon basically at home, where I would turn off the phone. So people would know, you know, you can call me but you're not going to hear from me I'm not going to respond to your texts, thereby also eliminating setting the expectation with my friends and family so they're not reaching out, but also creating that boundary, having that discipline to turn off my phone so I'm not tempted. I'm plugging the Wi Fi, I mean, unless I need to use the dictionary and stuff online because now we have all these tools online but a lot of times I will turn the Wi Fi off on my computer, maybe so the emails aren't coming in or I'll shut down the browser that has the email window. Creating that boundary within my space and then I live in the middle of San Francisco and sometimes the the noise can my neighbors that my building is made of tissue paper, I'm pretty sure. Right. And so sometimes, you know, the people above the people below. So part of also creating that cocoon for me when I can't get out, and I want to get something done is I started listening to the white noise. You know, I'll stay online I'll put YouTube on there's all these white noise recordings that we can listen to for free. And I'll do that to block out the noise. So setting the expectations, finding the peace and quiet, even when otherwise it might not be possible, turning off the distractions. And, and I'm able to be productive in that way, not to the same degree obviously as getting overseas but you know Cheryl we can't always do that we might not have the means we might not have the time that's right. So this is a nice sort of, yeah, or the desire. Yeah, because I kind of find that I, you know I have a room in my house that you know you people talk about the writer's room and that sort of thing and like you I, the family has to find the expectations when I'm writing my retreat is into my writing I retreat right into the story I'm writing. That's where I go. And so then when I finished with a day or whatever then I break out of that retreat, but my next question really is. Matthew, can you take us to one of your retreats and tell us what you did and how you felt when you were writing at that retreat. So I was finishing my novel my, my first real book. Because it's not it's the second one I published but it was it's my first book that I really worked on. And, and I was I was getting close to the end, and they started renovating the apartment above me. And, and I thought that's fine I'll work in cafes as long as there's white noise in the background I can usually work in public unless somebody gets on their cell next to me so I was trying to do that and then that wasn't working because there were just too many people it's hard to get a table sometimes the cafes in San Francisco in the middle of the day. So many people now working from home. So that wasn't working tried the library that wasn't working so I realized what am I doing you know I, I've had so much success when I have taken myself out of my day to day I need to get overseas. I had miles so I had a free ticket. So I was like I can do this you know relatively inexpensively was the off season. So I found a house on Mallorca the Spanish Island of Mallorca, and I wanted, again I wanted to be isolated so I found the smallest village on the island. I didn't get a car. It was the off season, the hotel was shut the restaurant was shut there's not an ATM there's not a bit I mean no traffic light really small surrounded by nature, because that's what fuels me. And I wanted to be able to move. And so I went and yeah I mean I would basically just get up in the morning I'm trying to remember I'm routine I get up in the morning, do some meditation, clear my head get into my body, work for a little while, have lunch, then usually go on a hike, whether down to the water because this village is on the water up into the mountains, just to move because I think that's so part of the creative process, as well as our physical well being is just keeping everything in motion. And then go back and work for another couple hours, then maybe have dinner. And then, like I mentioned earlier I work a lot at night I'm just a night owl so I would go for longer stretches really productive productive stretches in the evenings. So, and that just worked again because I didn't know anyone and I of course over time I didn't meet people, but it was just it was quiet, it was inspiring, and I just had that clear focus and I was able to stick to it, because of lack of distractions and the day to day responsibilities. It was great. Nice book. Yeah. Good. Sounds good. Janice, take us to one of your retreats. Would you like me to take you to a personal retreat, or one of the ones I lead, whichever you'd like to do your choice. No wrong answer. I'll jump into what I recently led, because I, when I do them on my own. I usually do them with friends and there's similarities, but my most recently led one at Green Gulch Farm in Marine County, we took over the guest house so there were, I think, 11 of us, all together. And the way that I like to structure these is to give people a lot of time to write, and just enough structure, so they don't feel sort of at odds and ends. So typically your morning is, is yours we all get up we, some of us walk some of us right, I usually write. We gather around 1130 before lunch, which is typically a time when, if you started writing in the morning you're tired. At that time, then I would do generally an exercise with them. I frequently teach a workshop at SLM called writing and mindfulness, and it's sort of how you can use mindfulness and meditation to feed your writing. We do a session there where we talk about getting emotion on the page or writing from the body with a little craft and some free writing. Then we have lunch and people are again are on their own in the afternoon. I agree with Matthew about some physical exercise so very often late in the day, we will around for will walk off into the pelican in for oysters, but it's a walk. There's dinner and then this I think is really important, we gather after dinner, and everyone is invited to read up to three minutes of whatever they've been working on that day. I do it all my retreats, and I even do it on the personal ones we open some wine and we read for each other. It's so motivating, and you can say to yourself like all day. Oh, if I just finished this scene I could read it tonight. And we read it only to applause. This is not about feedback critique, because we all know it's rough writing. So that in a nutshell is sort of how those retreats look. And may I may I add something to that. Please. Because I've been to three of Janice's lit camp retreats to as an attendee and one as faculty, and that that three minutes evening reading that she just mentioned does help you as a writer to get motivated because you know you have sort of a deadline. But it's also just and this is why I like the group retreats as well as the solar retreats and Janice is just fabulous at running her own. But it's not just that it motivates you to get your work done during the day, I just always come away from that that group setting and the readings and the applauding so inspired by what everybody else is doing and then it's infectious right and so that's one of the great things about doing the group retreats is you just you come away so inspired and you just want to write that much more so that's that's just a great angle on why it can be great to go away with with other other writers. Just like writing church. Just like writing church. Yeah, it's funny. That's because I have, I'm always using the analogy because you know we have these co-working spaces where we all go right silently. And my analogy is always it's it's sort of the different the same as you know when you meditate in the Zendo with all the other people. Yeah, it's so much easier than when you're sitting on the Christian by yourself in your house. And it just carries right over to your writing to be in a space with all these other people with the same intention, doing the same thing you're doing. There's an energy there it's very motivating. So what what are some of your major success stories is just a couple of major success stories of writers who've come out of your retreats or even how you felt successful at retreat Janice. So it's a timely question because a dear friend of mine, his name is Nancy Kelly was a filmmaker was on my most recent one the one I was describing to you. And she just wrote to me to say that he finished the screenplay that she had been working on there. Wow, so she pushed it to the place where she could get it done. Wow. And that was really gratifying. I personally do not think I would have ever finished any of my three books. Had I not gone on some version of a writing retreat. Well, it's interesting. Good to know. Matthew success. Success. Well I don't know that this is what you're necessarily getting at but but one of the what I feel is sort of a success. I mean first of all I finished my book right so I did mention that already so that was that was that was success. But another form of success that comes again from the group ones is just the connections I end up meeting and that's making. And that's a success just because it's just so enriching professionally and personally, and you end up carrying forward. These relationships that you make, and and it helps you be successful and it helps you help others have success. So I know that wasn't necessarily directly hitting the question but that's that what that's what comes up for me there's just. There's just that that that feeling of camaraderie and taking you and bringing your other writers along with you to the next level that can come from these these retreats a lot of the times that just feels feels so good and fulfilling. Hey, Nico. Do we have any questions from the audience. Currently we have a comment from the audience from she told she says, hearing other people's writing helps me get to know them better. It's a very intimate thing to do. Read your work allowed to other people it builds community. So I think she was just commenting on the value of being able to be in community with others and Doug also added. So I'm hearing that coming to a retreat with specific intentionality, particularly finishing a project is recommended. Would you guys agree with what both audience members have added to the chat box. Well, I definitely agree with she tell because she's been on retreats. And she's a member of our co-working space. Oh yes. Absolutely. But I think Doug has a good point. I mean I have led retreats where people come to figure out what they want to do. But, and that's fine you can do that too but if you go with some intentionality, you have that goal in front of you. And many of the other people who'll come, they're usually people who have small children. And for them, it's just, I'm going to come to this to think to just get some quiet inside my head to figure out what I want to do next. Yeah, I guess is an intention. Yeah. What do you think about that, Matthew. I think I would navigate. Yeah, I mean I think it's always good to have intentions and to have clarity on kind of what we're hoping to achieve, including with regards to retreats but I also think that there's a difference between intentions and expectations and sometimes I've ended up at a retreat thinking I was going to, you know, finish that chapter or write five chapters or whatever the intention might have been. And then been surprised by what actually happened at the retreat because again maybe I make an interesting new connection maybe there's a class, if it's a class if it's a retreat that has, you know, an educational component. Maybe I get inspired or led down a different route than I was necessarily expecting. And so, it might be okay that I didn't that I don't necessarily accomplish what I was thinking or hoping I was going to accomplish if something else came up in the moment. I would balance the intention with not having too many expectations and being open to whatever opportunities or inspiration might end up presenting themselves. So as as a coach, how do you manage that for others for the writers that work with you. I mean, how do you navigate through that to make sure that even if they come with an intention that they're not stifling their own creativity and trying to stick with that stringent line. How do you how do you coach that. Well, I think I would encourage people. I mean we create our own realities and a lot of that are realities end up being constructed by limiting beliefs. And if we get too stuck by this is what I have to do or this is what I should do or this is what I have to do and if we're talking in the context of retreat for example, then I would challenge the writer to kind of recognize okay well if we're saying should must have to, because this is what I said I was going to do. Are you potentially limiting your experience and what you can get out of it. And part of that again in this particular context would be. Often times it strikes in ways that we're not expecting, and it behooves us as creatives to not have this left brain this is how it's supposed to happen, rather open to inspiration open to that flow, and let ourselves kind of be carried by that if that's what we're feeling in the moment. Now again, I might show up to retreat saying I'm going to finish my book and I can see it and stick to that and that might be honestly organically what's supposed to happen and happens and, and in that case, don't want to distract from that. But if there's other stuff going on other opportunities other inspiration, then I think it's it's always good and this is what I would help people that I'm coaching with to question that to look at the limiting beliefs and ask. Presently, because your intention wasn't is in the past right and tended to do x y and z on this retreat, but presently. What am I feeling are those intentions and objectives still something I want to honor, or did I show up at lit camp in Belle Valley and it's like oh my God I met this amazing person who's helping me see a totally different way of approaching this story or I met this agent, who I'm really clicking with and actually it's not about me finishing the book right now it's about me nurturing this connection. So trying to again try to balance intention and expectation and be present and be honest with myself and, and if I were coaching someone help them to be honest with themselves about what do they need here and now. Exactly. And Janice what about you. I think a lot, I mean I love everything Matthew said so I echo, I would echo that I think that part of what gives people permission to write anything are those little generative sessions that I do. I think that in there, you may stumble upon something else. I also think that in the readings at night, if you've kind of gone off track there and written something else and you bring it to the group and people really love it. I think that that will move you a lot. So it really is up to the individual writer to trust their own process. And, you know, that's a hard thing to teach and a hard thing to do. And I think that from one of the one of the retreats that I was on with Janice and it was a writer who got up to do the, the three minute reading it in the evening. And she had been writing I can't remember it was nonfiction, but it wasn't humor, but during the day she wrote a humorous piece, and she got up and read it and we were all, you know we all just thought it was hilarious and she's been writing humor ever since. So she had that intention of working on the project she brought to the retreat, versus saying you know what I've got this idea for this funny story maybe I'll explore this. You know she might have missed out on a really interesting opportunity and an interesting new path forward. So, that's a wonderful example wonderful story. So, how do you figure out what writers work best in your retreats Janice. How do you, what do you have a selection process. What how do you do it. Ah, it's a good question. I don't. Let me say there's two ways to do it for the lit camp retreats and just a little background when, when the lit camp conference started. It was more traditional writers conference with workshops and a retreat. And over the past year. I believe so strongly in retreats and I also am not sure about conferences with workshop because I feel like it pits writers against each other, to some extent. So that I altered lit camp so that it is more like a writer's retreat with master classes. So, and this is one where I do. I have a selection process because we're going to typically be about 25 people, all off together. I bring up three very distinguished authors who will each do a master class but most of their time is also there for them to write. The selection process is, I'm going to say less about the writing than about who the writer is what I look what I asked people to do is to write me one page about themselves as a writer. And then I asked them to give me one page of whatever it is they're working on. I feel like since I have been doing that. The groups have had just a wonderful cohesion they've been supportive they've been community minded. I try to weed out people who are just going to be competitive with other writers, and to feel like, Oh, yeah, I'll, I'll impress this Pulitzer Prize winner by running this other writer down. These are the people I don't want there. I'm very careful about that kind of selection process when we're talking about the lit camp events and we've got like 25 people. How about you, Matthew, you, you, you're doing yourself retreat so how do you figure out who to go with. Yeah. Who to go with or where to go for you. Yeah, so no the who to go with since I'm by myself is easy. The where to go. Well, I mean, as you said, Cheryl, you know it depends on money. I'm not I can't run off overseas, you know, every time I might like to so that's part of that. Although if I do go overseas and I said this earlier one sort of caveat is that I not go someplace that I haven't yet been that I'm going to want to explore because that's just going to be a distraction so sometimes there are retreats to these wonderful exotic places. But if I'm going to go to those wonderful exotic places I haven't been I might not want to go on that particular retreat, I might want to go there to travel. Versus like I said I've lived in Paris and I've lived in Istanbul there you know certain places overseas where I already have routines and so I don't get so distracted. Closer to home. For me it's usually about getting back to nature and again finding a place that's quiet and I can have a time in the space in this in this case that you know a literal space that's quiet, and then that I can get out and have some movement and get some inspiration in nature. So wherever that might be whether it's a friend if they've got a place or. Yeah, something just any place that sort of meets those criteria. If I'm doing a solar retreat. So let me let me take the question from the other side the writers side. And what should a writer look for when they're selecting a culture retreat, particularly retreat. Matthew, for me. Okay. Well I'm so happy you were first. You can answer this one easily, you can answer this one easier than I can I think. Yeah, but I get I would I guess I would go back to my earlier comments about what are your objectives and what's your work style. Right, as you said Cheryl, a lot of people don't want to be by themselves right and I like both, you know, and so it depends. The last lip camper treat that I went on I was on the faculty but the reason I went. I was looking for I wanted to hear the agent talk and the publicist talk, and I wanted to reconnect with some people that I knew were going and then I wanted to make new connections because I was in that sort of mindset. And I had stuff I was working on but I didn't have I wasn't finishing a book. You know, so that sort of retreat was more what I was looking for so what are where are you in your project. Are you looking more to kind of make connections in the writing community and have a generative experience. You know, you probably want to go on a group one. You want to look for one that you can afford. You want to look for one that's, you know, you know, the right amount of time that you want to spend. Or if you just really want to just focus exclusively on your project you might you might want to go off by yourself. So I think it's what's your work style, and what are your objectives I just kind of come back to that. I think the place is really important. You need to look at where it is, and think to yourself will this be a place I feel like I can work. You know, I think a lot of us like a natural environment but not all is this place too busy for me, or is it too remote and I'm going to feel spooked at night. So you do want to look at that you want to see, is there any structure to the day, or is it just a free for all, you just write on your own, and maybe you see people, you know, at the meals. I kind of like a little bit of the structure, but you know, again, as Matthew said you want to see where you are in your process. You may want to look at how many people are going. Like, do you want to be like I have something coming up where I'm only taking six people to send Miguel del yende. One of whom's on this call today. And that's a really nice small group that's about the smallest group I've ever done on my own. And that's kind of nice if you're looking for that, but if you're like Matthew and you're gregarious and you want to make more contacts. You might look at the one where there's 25 people. And money. Yeah, I think you know you can't underestimate you have to figure out, because I see retreats that I think are crazy expensive. Yeah. And you wonder what people get out of them. You know, if they don't come out with the New York Times bestseller to why did they spend all that money right. Well that would be my thinking for sure. I think that's a good point I mean I know you're saying that sort of tongue in cheek but that's also a good point though again coming back to expectations, right, you know, don't and ask yourself if I spend the 5000 bucks or I'm sure this guy's the limit with regards to pricing. You know, am I going to am I really expecting you know a lot of times if there if there are agents there Janice sort of referred to their alluded to this earlier. And there was a Pulitzer prize that you know, the people signing up for the conference might be thinking I'm going to cozy up to that agent I'm going to cozy up to that author and they're going to get me connections they're going to help me get a deal. And if that's part of why they've decided to spend the money, they might be really setting themselves up for disappointment. The other thing that I'd like to just add really quick that I liked what Janice said about structure. You know, sometimes the retreats can have so much going on that if you're hoping to get some work done. You might not really be getting a lot of work done it might be more about the learning about the workshopping about connections. So kind of ask yourself that again what what am I hoping to accomplish am I going on this retreat to get a lot of writing done. Or am I do I have do I want to make connections do I want to learn do I want to learn about craft or marketing or whatever, whatever it might be. So you can have a conceivably have a writing retreat that has very little writing. Yes, or a writing retreat that has a whole lot of right. Right, or somewhere in between and everything in between. Right. So, Nico, do we have any audience questions. We do. I think our next audience question is from someone who wants to do who wants to facilitate a more learning oriented retreat. And their question is I'm planning a workshop writing retreat in Sweden city in late February, somehow more directed somewhat more directed. How could this work with prompts breaks group discussions are readings in terms of time allocation. I don't think that there's a right answer to that question. I think you need to figure out what kind of retreat you actually want to run what you know if you know some people who are going to take it. It's a mix. And I would call on she tell who was at my, my one with the master classes. Would you say it was half and half or would you say it's skewed a little more to the writing. I think it was a good balance of the two it really was because the, the talks, and I won't call them workshops because we weren't workshopping each other's were, we were writing really gave people fodder for them the free time in the afternoon. And if there were, if they were early risers, the time that they had before the classes started so I thought it was a good combination of good balance. All right. Thank you, thank you for that. Yeah, I forgot to mention that I would do these very early morning generative sessions at that particular one, the people who are willing to get up early. I think if it were, if I were running this conference which I think might have to do with the divine feminine I'm just get or the heroine's journey I'm just guessing. I would. I guess I would ask myself, what is it that I want to impart to the people who are going to be there because I happened to know a little bit about this retreat and I know that if we can just say Kate, this is Kate's retreat if I may. And I know that she has a lot of she's done workshops and mechanics that have been sold out she has a lot to say and share from her own experience about the heroine's journey and there's a big appetite for this. And so my suspicion is that in this particular case you have a lot to impart. And the people that are attending are looking to learn versus just have time for example to write. My suspicion would be in this case, just because I happen to have a little insight into this would be to maybe weigh it heavier on the side of learning. And then, and then I would also ask myself, that's what I'm thinking. I have to share whatever but then what am I thinking. I could put myself in the place of the attendees what do I think they're probably wanting to take away from this and just kind of look at it from both sides that would be sort of my, my way that I would probably approach it. Oh, thank you. Good advice. Thank you both for that. Any other questions from the audience Nico. I really have a question that emerged from your conversation and it came up with what Cheryl said about writing retreats, feeling kind of like church. So, so thinking about retreats as almost like a spiritual connection to the craft, how do you like intentionally design that into retreats to have it be a spiritual act. Oh, yeah, Matthew, did you have a thought. Well I was just going to say that to me creativity is inherently spiritual. You know, opening to the flow however whatever your version of spirituality is, but to me the creative process is inherently connecting to something greater than me. So that was just sort of my gut reaction to that versus a specific head on answer to the question for which I'll turn it over to Janice. Head on. Yeah, so I come from I approach it from maybe a slightly different point of view. I mean, I have been a writer much longer than I've been a meditator and then practitioner but I have been those latter two things now for a while. And it occurred to me how much that changed my writing, when I really developed a consistent meditation practice. And so, whenever I do a retreat, I try to find a way to tap into that. Very often the locations really lend themselves to that if we're at Greengolds farm that's part of San Francisco Zen Center. You know, the members are welcome to go into this vendor to meditate and I'll do meditation but tie it to the writing. Again, as I said before, the way that meditation and mindfulness can feed your writing. Because, you know, our job as writers is to render the world on the page, but we cannot render the world on the page if we are not actually paying attention to the world. Right. So I feel like this is this is sort of it's my way to put in the spiritual aspect. And I do think Nico's right that, you know, retreat originally is a spiritual practice. Right. So I think it makes sense to be thinking of your writing in those terms when you go away. It's a thing that you have now created a container for a separate time. And if I may add, so yes, yes, yes, agree with all of the above. And Janice also does retreats at Esalen, which I can't remember if we've already mentioned Esalen, which is another just painfully spiritually charged place in the best possible way. But I also just wanted to sort of piggyback and just sort of agree with what Janice just said about meditation. I mean, I start off every day meditating, but also before I sit down to write. I usually do a little bit of meditation, which does two things right it clears my head gets me out of the rational mind processing, you know, the monkey mind as they say in Zen, and gets me into my body. And by opening me up to to inspiration into the flow into whatever, again, spiritual sort of currents might might help us with the process. But then, if we talk about, again, this analogy or this metaphor of church of a retreat as a church, I think another aspect of that is this communion that we get if we're going on a group retreat right that's what church for me at least growing up was largely about that communion. And with that also the bearing witness that that comes into play. So I think the similarities are sort of multifaceted in that. Yeah. Yeah. So, do we have any more questions from the audience. I just added that we should have time for one more question. So if any emergent questions are popping up in your brain right now do add it to our chats. And, you know, I can follow up with another question, you know, like the, the word retreat itself, some people interpret that as almost like you're going away and like running away from something but we've been talking a lot about like communion, right and like conferencing, you know, like, is retreat the right word for what some of these retreats actually are, you know, like I wonder about that mystic choice that we have. I mean for me it goes back to, you know, I think the first question was, I can't remember how it was phrased but just Janice and I both wholeheartedly agreed that oh yeah what what are the benefits of I think it was right. And it's getting away from the day to day life getting out of our houses so for me retreat is sort of the perfect word. I have no issues with the retreat because but I would also I guess I would just add, I'm retreating from my day to day life. But there's also I'm going I'm going towards something right I'm going towards the piece I'm going towards that time and space. So it's retreating in a sense but not necessarily in a pejorative sense because I'm also going someplace and that someplace is what I need it's the time and space for my creativity for myself for communion with other like minded creatives. But retreat works for me linguistically. Yeah, but I think Nico you bring up a good point so the conference that Matthew was talking about where he was talking to agents and people like that. I never called that a retreat. I called that a conference because it was very outwardly directed. It was the business side, publishing. Whereas the retreat that that she told did that was that was more of a retreat because yet I brought authors but they just talked about the craft. We kind of purposely did not focus it on publishing. And that gave the writers the time and space to just think about. Okay, the first step, which is write the best book I can. And so that I think does work for retreat but when yeah when there's all those business components and you're more outwardly directed versus inwardly directed. I think conference is a better word than retreat. I think that's a good distinction. Yep, I agree. I have a question about being at a retreat and thinking about going to one. If you don't have any Wi Fi or phone or any of that stuff you have to rely on your memory and your feelings and all of that stuff that for some people may work just fine in a retreat setting but for others they might need a prompt they might need materials that they bring with them. Do you do will take things with you. Do you have prompts. How do you remember what it is you want to write. Let me give you an example. I'm writing historical novels. I need to look stuff up. I mean I need to do research. Do your retreats are your retreats amenable to that sort of thing. I think you bring up an interesting think shell because I've published two historical novels. And sometimes I find that I would be on retreat and I didn't have that some research I wanted. You know, that's why they developed TK, which is put it in there and go on and I think, particularly with historical fiction, you get caught up in the research. Yes, it helps you decide what happens next, but I think we have to remember that it's the fiction part that's important the storytelling. And so, sometimes being a little separated from your research or taking an extra step to get to it might do some surprising things with your storytelling. And then the other reality, so I love that I love that perspective Janice and then I would just add that the reality is even if we're at excellent which is in the middle of nowhere in Big Sur, there's still Wi-Fi, right. So, usually it's hard in 2023. You know, yes, like I mentioned there are some cabins in the woods if we go far enough out that we're not going to have Wi-Fi, but it's hard in 2023. And if you're because most of these retreat places, most of their clients want Wi-Fi and expect Wi-Fi. So usually I think the problem isn't going to be what do I do without Wi-Fi. I think the bigger problem typically is how do I cut myself off from Wi-Fi so that I don't have that distraction. And my question was kind of really how do I bring the tools with me that I need to write what I'm going to write. If I'm going on a retreat just with the isolation and the peace and quiet, I still want my material. I still want my tools. And really how do you maneuver through that when you design a retreat for people like me who need that? Except for my retreat in Mexico, most of my retreats, at least people from the Bay Area, drive to. So you're just going to fill your trunk with all that stuff that even you're not even sure you're going to need it and I will do that. You know, I think that if you are going to do a retreat where you need to fly somewhere, then I recommend uploading everything. You can find it or you'll have all the links you need so that you don't get stymied. I do think a lot of it is just that feeling of security, knowing that if you needed it, it was there. Right. So come with your storyboard, you know, the one with your storyboard. How about you, Matthew, anything to add to that? No, I mean, I have a big hard drive. So yeah, most of it's going to be on the hard drive. I don't write historical fiction, for example. So I don't have, I don't need to bring 10 books with me, you know, that I that I might be using as contributing, you know, to the research. I haven't done any intensively research. I mean, the only things that I might travel with sometimes are my handwritten journals, because, you know, my journal nonstop. So I guess that's the one maybe where I have a physical thing that I want to bring with me. But they're not, you know, so big that that's ever been a problem. Wonderful. Let me ask you both to just say anything that you want to say that I didn't ask about and also tell everyone what's coming up for you. Would you like to start Matthew? With regards to retreats, I don't know that there's anything that hasn't been discussed. So thank you for such thorough good questions. I think we covered, you know, the essentials and then some. I would just encourage people to do them. I guess that's where I would end with regards to retreats themselves. Just think about again your expectations and your objectives and find a retreat that looks like it's going to work for you. Ask people who have been on those retreats, you know, a lot of the retreats are happening yearly. So you usually, you know, get some feedback from people, but I guess the short answer is just to do them. They can be really, really helpful and really help you get to the finish line. With regards to what I have coming up tomorrow, I'm doing this is more in the life coaching vein, but it certainly applies to writers as well. Tomorrow at 10 a.m. I'm doing a holiday through revival event, which is on zoom and you can go to life coach Matthew.com slash holidays. And you know, I've just heard a lot of people talking about surviving the holidays. And so we're just going to have some conversation this same setup is here. I'm going to bring some stuff from meditation from the life coaching program that in which I'm certified and just kind of talk about ways to not just get through the holidays but enjoy them. Enjoy them despite some of the additional stress and stuff. So that's what I saw. I saw your, your, I saw your promo on Facebook. Yeah, well done, Mr. Felix. Thank you very much. Janice. Ask that you want to contribute and what you got coming up. Thanks. I'm really excited about coming up. One is this Mexico retreat in San Miguel del Yende, it's February 17 through the 23rd, which overlaps with the San Miguel writers conference, which was very, very dippinous. I only have one spot left. But if people go on the lick camp site, it's, it's a great we just took over a little tiny hotel. So I'm super happy about that. I'm coming up in June. He's me will be another of the sort of retreat with master classes will be the lick camp retreat that she told dad. I believe it's June 2nd through 7th. I will open for submissions in February. Okay, I have on board Paul Harding, who has won the Pulitzer but his most recent novel this other Eden, which is beautiful, was up for the National Book Award and the Booker this year. I have Laila Lalami, who is another Pulitzer finalists, and Lydia Kiesling, who has two novels are a recent eco novel called mobility I just think is terrific. So they'll be up along with myself doing the master classes. So those two things you can find on the lick camp writers.org site that I think will be someplace in the show notes. So those are the three things I have coming up. Great. Anything you'd like to add about retreats just in general that I didn't ask. I'm going to just come down and agree with Matthew do them. Sounds like a plan. Nico, do you have anything else. I just wanted to thank you and Janice and Matthew for joining us in this very generative conversation today. And I also wanted to just remind all of us that we do have a wonderful writers lunch coming up on Friday, January 19th on the topic how to craft a bio. I know a lot of us are thinking about writing but sometimes we completely forget that we also have to think about what we are presenting in our own personal story through our bio. So that will be with Joey Garcia, Jeannie Grossenbacher and Jillian Hamel, and it will be moderated once again by the wonderful Cheryl Bazebutte. Thank you all for being here today. Warm welcome to all of you and I hope to see you again next month in January. Okay, for the new year. And I'd like to add my thanks to Matthew Janice and to you Nico and the mechanics Institute. Thank you so much. And everyone have a happy happy weekend and happy holidays. Thank you. See you all and eat a lot.