 Hello and let's talk about the controversy inside the all India football federation. The body which runs football in the country had approached the court last month asking that its present executive committee be allowed to be in place till fresh elections are held and these elections would be held after new constitution is formulated. The move by the AIFF has not been appreciated by many of the state bodies which are in fact demanded that the upcoming general body of the AIFF discuss the delay and if possible fix the date for the elections. Clearly a lot is going on inside the organization. Leslie Xavier talks to sports journalist Jayadip Basu who wrote an article for NewsClick on this issue. Hello Jayadip, welcome. Welcome, welcome. Thank you. That's quite a stirring story that you gave NewsClick. A lot of churn happening in the AIFF in Indian football in general and related to the election and the running of the sport rather than the actual game which is how ideal it should be but sadly that's not the case. Newsmakers are the administrators and not the players. But yeah, so before we get into the chat and discussion on these things I'll just give out a gist of what exactly has happened. So the all India football federation which runs the sport in the country, its election was due this December for the executive committee which is led by Prahul Patel who is the president. So the AIFF has convened the AGM on the 21st which traditionally that's when the elections happened but at the same time they also have appealed to the Supreme Court to let the current executive committee continue its tenure because there is no constitution for the AIFF yet. And this constitution story has happened because the Supreme Court had appointed a committee to formulate a constitution which is in accordance with the National Sports Court. Earlier the AIFF running was not in accordance with the court. So there is a lot of backstory attached to it and larger implications as well. So your story which we brought out via news click is that 21 state associations have raised their voice against this and they want the election date to be fixed. So they want the elections to be an agenda for the AGM that is happening on the 21st and possibly they want the executive committee to decide on a date when the elections could be held. So that creates a tricky question for the AIFF because they are trying to stall the election. So can you just shed more light into this entire episode? Yeah, because first of all as it is very suspicious. The AIFF is saying that since the new new constitution has not come which is due from 2017 onwards the court couldn't give it. So let us wait for the then we'll hold the election but it is very suspicious that AIFF has suddenly woken up one month before the elections. And it is also very suspicious that AIFF instead of they have the way they have ordered the plea to the prayer to the court where they have said in that case please allow the present committee to extend their mandate. AIFF could have easily said as some people has pointed out that please allow us to hold the election on the strength of the previous constitution on which the current body is standing and then we will see what will happen. And at the same time. There is a slight problem to that right? Yeah, that is a slight problem to that. So it has it has been and why didn't they go six months before why they have come now. This is a lot of people are asking that. And secondly, the most important thing is that if the elections are held, then Mr Patel is ineligible to contest for any post in the AIFF for the next four years, because as per the National Sports Court 2011, he has completed his three terms and 12 years as the president. So under no circumstances, he can continue as the president. And only way he can continue as the president, if the court allows this current current committee to continue for some more time. So there is this justification which is doing the rounds via the mechanism by which PR is managed by the AIFF. And one of this is is the spin that FIFA might ban the Indian body if it doesn't have an executive committee. The option is to either hold the election, which they don't want to, like you mentioned, or let them continue so that the ban can be prevented. And things can run the way it is still, but then there is a question of what happened to the committee and what happened to the Constitution that they were supposed to. I understand that the Supreme Court had appointed a two-member committee to form the Constitution, which can be followed by the AIFF, and the election should have been held now. Of course, pandemic situation, lockdown, all these things can be cited, but there is a larger story to it, I believe, because in the media, it has come out that the committee had, which was from a chief election commissioner of India, S. Sai Kureshi, he has said that he had already submitted a report to the Supreme Court in February of this year, and till now the court has not taken it up. So there is some kind of a missing link over here. Missing link in this court, they say the court has the Mr. Kureshi, who is the head of the committee, along with Bhaskar Ganguly, former India captain. He has categorically said I have submitted the report, so if you have submitted the report and it is with the court, see, court can be told to hurry up. The court can be requested to hurry up so that they can hold their election. You go to court and say please allow us to extend it. That itself is a, and I will say two things. One thing is that the FIFA ban might come. It is nothing but a hoax, H-O-A-X hoax, nothing else. This is a kind of threat which every national federation gives whenever they are in trouble. You go to I-O-A, I will say oh if you don't do that then IOC will come down heavily on us. It is the same thing. Why should, and first of all you tell me if you don't the election, why shouldn't they hold the election? If the FIFA man comes without holding election, there are more reasons the elections should be held, isn't it? Another thing, they are saying COVID-19 situation. COVID-19 situation is happening for COVID-19. Everything is happening. Everything is happening. What not is happening. ISL is happening. ILIG is happening, which is which is credit to all India Football Federation. They are doing some master's course that is happening. Only the elections cannot be held. And all other federations are holding elections. Only few days back we know that Athletic Federation held their election in Gurgaon where Adil Sumari Wala was elected the president. So because of COVID-19 situation and what is the Delhi government rule? I think 50 people, isn't it? 50 or 100 people or something like that. I don't remember. I think 200 people or whatever. And how many members they have? They have 36 members. I know each member association brings two to three people. Even it brings it's 100 people. And 100 people it add another 50 with it. Can't you get 150 people together? So to say that because of the pandemic and because of the COVID-19 situation, it gives you a feeling there is something wrong behind it. So that's the same thing that has been cited by the state. Some of the officials that you spoke to, I believe that they were very upset with how things have been working at the Federation. Can you just elaborate a little on what exactly is the feeling from the state association officials who have stood up now, decided to call for the election. They talk on pretty big people in the football cabinet that way. See, I will break it down like this. I have spoken to quite a few associations and I have asked them only one question, why you have to write this letter? Are you feeling so cornered? They said not exactly, but there are a couple of things which is really, really putting us off. That is, when the letter came that we have moved court, wasn't it the responsibility of the Federation to inform the associations before moving court? Or at least they could have called an executive committee meeting and should have asked their opinion before moving court. Moving court, you have to pay the lawyer. Moving court is expensive. It doesn't come cheap. It comes expensive and I am sure AFF is spending heavily on its lawyers and its legal team and everything, which is costly. I am not blaming AFF. So they said they could have asked us. Secondly, as if, see, in this COVID situation, they say that COVID-19 situation when FIFA grant has come, you make so much of, I won't say first. But you make so many rules and regulations for distributing the FIFA grant. You ask the state association to give undertaking, to give proof, and so and so and so and so and so, like CRS activities and all. But when it comes to spending on the legal teams, then there is no bar on it. And every day you say there is no money, no money because of the situation, which is of course accepted. You couldn't hold under 16 national championship, under 19 national championship, senior national championship, women under 16, women under 19, women senior national championship. Nothing could be held. But while on the point of extending the mandate of the present committee, then you can spend very freely on it. So that's a question they are asking. Yeah, they're feeling left out of, I mean, they're feeling that things are not democratic anymore. That's what I believe. But the sad reality is that in the sport, most of the federations, these things happen. So there is a backstory again with the thing Rahul Mehra, the lawyer who had filed the original PIL, which led to the FF situation, which is right now when he filed the PIL in Delhi Accord and Delhi Accord decided to pull up the FF official saying that things should be run as per the sports code. That's where it all began. Rahul Mehra is again the person behind the PIL that has led to the suspension of 54 national sports federation, taking away of the recognition of 54 national sports federation by the Sports Ministry, which was again directed by the Delhi Accord, post the PIL. And these federations are run as chiefdom of the people who are, personal chiefdom of the people who are running the show for ages. And the Indian Olympic Association is party to it in many ways because it's again a political electoral game that happens because the more the federation officials that they have under their control, the better for them to run the show as far as the Olympic Association is concerned. So it's kind of like a huge mess. And if you look at individual federations, you mentioned that the federation elections that are happening. Of course, the same person won. That's, that's Sumari Valava has been at the helm for a while now. And if you look at, say, for instance, archery federation, it is split. There are two factions that are fighting and archery federation has lost its recognition with the international body. So this situation, the football situation is just reflective of what is happening in general in Indian sports. So what is your opinion on that? Because, I mean, you would have come across many more in your experience, many more officials, many more federations who are run. I mean, who are not exactly run. Forget the sports code. It doesn't follow any code at all. That is true. It doesn't follow any code. And as I, as I feel the, in the last two, two things I feel, one is in the last two, last few, after 2011, when the National Sports Court came into being, which, which looked very apolitical. There was a, there was a feeling that things are improving, because all the 56 federations signed the, were signed, signed the court and they accepted the court and agreed to abide by the court. But in the last two, three years, we are seeing there is an increasing tendency to defy the court by not only the, and they are being encouraged by several associations, several sports federations. And they are, what is most surprising and side part of the whole story is, they are somehow being encouraged by the Indian Olympic Association. I'm sorry to say this. It looks apparently, not openly, but and also the sports ministry, which is supposed to, supposed to implement and see the sports code is implemented. Sometimes it doesn't look serious. And sometimes they look, they have got a pick and choose policy that they will favor someone, but will punish someone else for the same, same thing, doing same thing. This is one. The second, second thing I feel, which is the, which is the most worrying part in today's, in our today's discussion that whatever has happened in archery or in boxing or wrestling or so many other, so many other things. It has been such they have been suspended, come back, we have seen whatever all these things have happened, but it had never happened in football before. Football Federation was, was, was known in the circle, especially in the sports ministry circle, one of the best run federations, because they were, they were, they were amiding by the rule, they were, they were there, everything was in order. But the what has happened now, I think, all India Football Federation, just because to, to, to, because of, because of some people's eagerness to be there, I would say, instead of saying, to continue in power, I would say to be there, have reduced Football Federation to the, to the, to the line of, say archery association, or for that matter, wrestling or what happened to boxing, we know, and karate and taekwondo and so many things, which you know, Leslie. So that is the most worrying part. That's the larger problem here is that when we discuss, I mean, firstly, the correlation is pretty simple, why Sports Ministry or the IOS is party to this, or encouraging this, I mean, not following the National Sports Court attitude. It is got to do with who is at the helm of the, of this federation. It's always invariably, it's not, it's not a former footballer, which heads the effort. It's not a former athlete, which has any, any, it's not a boxer, which has the boxing federation. It's a simple idea that everything is headed by, on the top, it's a politician, and they have their own political leanings, they have their own party connections, and it's all party. Ultimately, it boils down to that. It's party politics that is happening, even in sport. Getting back into the mess that is Indian sport, it's affecting the athletes badly. That is something that nobody discusses when they discuss these elections and lack of elections or lack of clarity or infighting and all that. When archery federation was suspended by the international body, the archers were left in the lurch because they were in the middle of trying to qualify for the Tokyo game, and they had a lot of competitions that they would have loved to attend, and there was no clarity who was going to take them out. And also at the same time, the funds that the sports ministry releases for these athletes, it's released via these federations for their foreign trips, for their exposures as such, salaries for the foreign coaches that the federations employ. So, all these things, I mean, it ultimately boils down to the fact that Indian sport is getting affected and it's getting destroyed by these things. And this happens not just at the elite national level or the international level, it happens right in the state level or the district level, because at the top, if there is a faction, of course, that faction is fueled by the votes that comes from the state body. So there is that kind of hierarchy that goes down right in the district level. I personally, if I can mention an anecdote, since I used to wrestle and in 2002 there was a huge election that happened, a very hotly contested national federation election that happened, and one faction won, another faction lost, and so what happened, the faction that won, they targeted the state body which didn't support them during the election. So Kerala was one of the state bodies which didn't support. And so they fueled the formation of a rebel or a parallel state as written in Kerala. And then, so we were caught in the crossfire, so I was wrestling at that point. I didn't know which association should I stand with. I competed for one body. I couldn't compete in the nationals since then. And for the last three, four years of my competing career because I had injuries, so I left the sport altogether. From 2001 to 2005, I competed in Judo Nationals. I was a wrestler because I couldn't, I was a diva. So this is just an individual story of me, whatever the level that I competed at which is much lower than the international athletes for sure. But it affected a lot of athletes at the time, a lot of wrestlers at the time. And the same thing continues in, that makes me angry because I have experienced that pain. I have experienced the difficulties that an athlete faces. So with the churn happening in AFF, I feel that it's positive also for Indian sporting everywhere because the state associations, whatever the reason may be, there might be power politics also involved in this move. But it's showing a sign that we could take on the powers. We could get things straightened out within our federation if the effort is together. And you yourself have seen these letters that were written. So I believe there is a concerted effort towards achieving something good or is it something else? That is the thing. If it is to, if 21 letters and come in a span of say four or five or six days, then it is a concerted effort to achieve something good, then there is nothing like that. Which is I would say the golden week for Indian Indian sports. But there are a lot of ifs and buts written in it and skeptics are there. They feel there could be some bigger game being played from behind, which is hotting up and which is brewing. And finally it will come to come to light. But so far, all the associations I have spoken to, I have not spoken to all 21, but I have spoken to quite a few of them. They all are vehemently denying that there is someone behind it. They all are saying that they have written it on their own because they want the election to be held in time. That's what they claim. And on the face value at the moment, since we have no other evidence, we have to accept it. And though it's slightly disturbing that at this juncture of where we are as a country, people still have to fight for elections to be held. But that's the truth. That's the reality. But at least that fight is a positive sign, I feel, because then more federations can understand how things can be, how things can be needed out for the larger good of Indian sports, larger good of athletes, and larger good of the people involved. Thanks, Jairi, for the time. And it was as usual great talking to you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Leslie. Great talking to you. In our next segment, we bring you part of a conversation between Dr. Ajay Gudavarthi of Jawaharlal Nehru University and News Clicks Prabheer Purkhaistha. They're talking about the enduring relevance of Marxist thinker and activist Frederick Engels. November 28th marked the 200th birthday anniversary of Engels, a man of many talents and interests, whose writings continue to have an influence on political thought and action to this day. Thank you so much, both of you, for joining us. So Dr. Ajay, I wanted to start with you first on this theme of Engels not being really seen as an original thinker in his own right. And you've talked about this as well, because he's, in fact, long before Capital came out, long before some of Marxist other works came out, Engels was also someone who was carrying out a lot of studies from a very Marxist perspective. So could you talk a bit about this? Yeah, thanks Prashant. Yeah, you know, you go back to history, Engels, in fact, wrote his first volume, The Conditions of the Working Class in England, much before he met Marx, and he wrote it being himself, belonging to kind of a bourgeois family. He was looking into the working classes. And if you read that book on English, that working class, it gives extremely detailed sociological firsthand experiential account of what the working class went through. I think this brings that, and that was actually the basis for the friendship with Marx later on. They met in a cafe and that's how they started and Marx said that repeatedly Marx mentions that in a couple of places that Engels arrived at a similar conclusion, independent of Marx. So in that sense, I think Engels was also in a very original sense, inaugurated the materialist, historical materialist, or what they referred to as new materialism. And this we need to see in the context of the 19th century, where there was Egelian idealism, not all pervasive, Engels took the first step to bringing it to a kind of a materialist. And it's interesting you mentioned materialism and Prabir, I'm going to come to you on this because you just recently wrote an article about reading Engels today. And one of his enduring contributions has been in how we understand science or the philosophy of science. And this is not again, not just a theoretical or an academic perspective, but something that is very much rooted in struggles in perspectives by scientists as well. So could you maybe take us to how some of his writings actually shaped how we understand science today? Before I do that, there are two aspects of Engels that I think we should really register. One is that he was a polymath. He did dabble with various things. He read vast amounts. He knew 20 languages. So he is one of the minds who was quick, who had a very wide-ranging interest, like Marx. Marx also has a huge wide-ranging interest. They were not limited to looking at philosophy, history or economics. They really did a very large list of things that they were interested in and they worked on. Both Engels and Marx are important. Their importance is also that they looked at how production technology was changing society and to that extent there was a kind of division of labor. So both knew what each other was doing and reading. That Engels would focus more on science and Marx would look at more on history of technology as it was changing and both of them put together and look at the development of productive forces in England as it applied to the textile industry. If you look at Capital Volume 1, you will see Marx is a brilliant historian of technology. If you see somebody who could have founded the discipline, then Capital Volume 1 according to me is the best description of his historical view of how technology changes society. Engels looked at far beyond the immediate issues as well. He was interested in looking at chemistry. He was interested in looking at physics and also in his dialectics of nature there is this role of labor in human evolution where he talks about how the hand evolves because of labor. It is not only that it produces labor but it is also the product of labor and this vision of how the evolutionary process takes place in nature is something which is quite original at that point of time. People claim that he was Lamarckian, he was not good and so on and so forth, they forget. Even Darwin was a Lamarckian at the time in his theory of evolution. One of the arguments he gives apart from natural selection, one of the driving forces he considers is Lamarckian inheritance. So that was not something which is not mainstream at the time. It was very much a mainstream view and cutting edge biological view at the time. It changes only when Mendelian genetics becomes more widely known. So that's really the mark of time. But the interesting part is of course both Marx and Engels. Engels was asked by Marx to write on people like During who were spreading a lot of confusion regarding science, regarding socialism to be derived from absolute principles which is why Engels calls during metaphysical that it is not changing. It's to be derived from some fundamental principles which are developed through logic and that logic does not consider change in itself. And that's I think the major contribution when you look at anti-during that it is a view of nature. It's a view of nature in change and it's a principles of philosophy being enunciated which puts at the heart of it what is change that you are not talking of absolute categories that from which you derive everything else but you are considering motion in nature and therefore also motion in society. If I put it in today's terms it would be you consider that change is something which is constant that there is nothing which is static which does not change and this is what in physics would be called matter in motion. There is nothing called matter which is completely steady. It is always in motion and always in the state of change. And this is the dialectics versus metaphysics which is what I think at that time philosophy really was referring to. Today when we look at it we don't know what we really mean by metaphysics at that time and we don't know therefore what is the dialectics being talked about but that is the problem of reading something 200 years later and then trying to understand what was the framing at that point of time but even if we look at it today this is something which is even today we need to look at the consideration that are we trying to develop from absolute principles something which is say justice or are you trying to talk about it in the context of societal change and I think that's central to both the sciences and it is also true for society. I think that's where Engels major contribution lies both as a polymesist both the task that he was given by Marx to polymerizing as people like Engels but also original views on how science was shaping philosophy how science was shaping other things and of course as I said both of them put together how science and technology shaped society itself That's all your time for today We'll be back tomorrow with more news from around the country Until then keep watching NewsClick