 Hello, hello. Welcome back. This is Steelwind the morning. Thank you for staying with us. We have arrived to that conversation. I was telling you about the Resilient Woman. This is an organization founded by an incredible woman who has joined us today, who goes by the name Lucy Karambu. She will be taking us through the journey of the Resilient Woman. The Resilient Woman, they basically help women who are in prison to transition into the society and their children of course. So Lucy Karibusaina. Thank you so much for having me, Stephanie. Glad to have you with us. Thank you. So talk to us. Tell us first who you are and then you can introduce Resilient Woman. My name is Lucy Karambu. I'm born and brought up in Meru. I am a Christian. I love the Lord. Very passionate about social healing, restorative justice and trauma management because I think that we are living in a time where there are a lot of mental issues that are affecting people and we need healing, not just the healing of the body but the healing of the mind and the soul. So I believe in that. Right. So tell us about Resilient Woman and your role there and what it is about. So Resilient Woman is an organization that is mandated as a mandate of supporting women that are transitioning in prison through trauma management, through mentorship and then to complete the support to these women that are transitioning in prison. We also support children, their children with education. That's children that are affected by imprisonment, whose parents have been to prison. And then also children who are affected by, who are living in difficult circumstances. And Resilient Woman therefore does the work of easing the burden of transitioning or entry of the women when they are getting back to the community because there's a lot of stigma. There's a lot of discrimination. There's a lot of isolation. So we do, we receive them. We accept them. We want to love them. We want to be practical in demonstrating the love of Christ to these women so that it becomes easy for them to go back to the community. Okay. Doing great stuff. Thank you. So tell us why the name Resilient Woman? Why Woman? And why is Resilient again? Resilient because our all intention in supporting this woman, you know, because our focus is we want to ensure that we have supported this woman. Our total, our head game is to ensure that they are resilient. They are able to bounce back in the face of the experiences that they have had. They are able to develop social networks. They are able to resettle back. They are able to to get back and begin their life. So our aim is to build somebody that is resilient as we journey with them through trauma management training, through mentorship, through supporting their children. So this is all that we want to see with this woman that we are supporting. All right. Yes. And why did you decide you are supporting women? Did you see a gap or why women, why not men or why not in both of them? Well, both men and women are supported, but are affected by imprisonment. And we think that women have a bigger burden. Both men and women are affected, but women have a bigger burden. And many times when women leave prison, they are, they are getting back and getting settled is actually more difficult than for the, for the, for the men. How so? Because many times a woman will get into prison when they come back, their husband has gotten married. Whatever they had is taken away, you know. And so, but for a man, it's easier for them to settle back when they come out as much as they are dealing with their emotional issues, you know, that stigma and all. But for the, for getting back and getting settled and reconnecting with the, with the community and the families, it's easier for them and more difficult for the ladies, for the women. Yes. All right. Before we get into what you do, we want to know the story behind Resilient Woman. How did you come up with it? What, what inspired you to Resilient Woman? I would say that, that understanding of restorative justice, which for me is such a practical way of demonstrating the love of Christ. I would say learning about restorative justice met my passion, my, my belief as a person. It really resonated with my experience as a person in the journey of life. And so it was like now, getting to learn about restorative justice really triggered everything or just brought me to saying, this is exactly what it, what it is I would want to do. Because restorative justice is, is so, it's a relational approach. It brings two people, one in parties, parties together. It rebuilds relationships. It, it says, let's talk, you know, yeah, let's not, let's not, let's not create war as much as there is, there is, I've committed an offense against you, Stephanie. And probably let's say it's a rape case or a murder case. And there are options of, you know, the person going to prison. We're saying after all this is done, relationships are important because we want to break the cycle of, of, of violence. We want, we don't want our children, the children of the two parties that we're dealing with to continue this cycle, to continue eating each other and wanting to, to, to be violent against each other. We want to break that by saying, let's, let's say, how can we mend this? Is there anything that I can do as a person that offended you to correct this? And sometimes it's difficult, but it is possible. And so for me, that was really, I just thought this is a practical way of really demonstrating the love of Christ as opposed to retributive justice. Because retributive justice does nothing about relationships. When people come out of prison, they want to take revenge. And what happens is the cycle continues to replay. Yes. And you've said that it resonated with, you know, your experiences. So do you have a particular experience or maybe your life journey that particularly resonated with, you know, restoration justice? Understanding the effect that, that imprisonment asked on children for me. And having grown up with the grandmother, because my parents separated when I was very, very young, actually before I went to school. And the impact that that has on the children, you know, it is, it is. We cannot, we cannot even, what, we cannot even quantify the impact, the separation, separation of children from their parents as in, especially when the parents go to prison. For me, that was something that I, that really came really close home. Because being away from my, my, my mom and my dad and growing up because my mom went to a different marriage and I was left with a migrant mother and good. It was good that my uncle take responsibility, took responsibility for our education. But then being away from my mom and experiencing that, you know, separation and lack of just being with my mom and my dad. As I may not have faced the kind of stigma that children were, were affected by incarceration phase. But for me, that, that is something that I, I just said it's something that needs attention so that when parents are supported through their journey of integration, their, their, their parent, their children are taken care of. Yes. Because children will just get scattered. They, they have no one to really to be accountable to. Some go to the street, some, you know, some refuse to go to school because, you know, my mom is in prison. So there's no sense in going to school. So the impact on children is great. And that, for me, really, really touched me. Yes. So can you say maybe some of the experiences, the difficult experiences that people, you know, experience in their lives actually, you know, lead to something maybe like in your case, it led to, you know, you finding your purpose, maybe if I call this your purpose. Yes. So it's at the end of the day, it's, it will make sense, whatever someone is going through. Yeah. So you would want me to name an exam, an experience that would lead to a purpose? Yes, you can. I think there are many experiences. For me, it was that childhood experience that was very traumatizing. Others would be lost. Yeah. And for me, it was actually also a loss of relationship with my parents. But they are that those others who would be have loss of parents that would lead them to just being able to. I think the journey of life gets them to discover something about themselves, but also loss of a child, you know, even loss of a marriage, you know, those are examples of things of experiences that would have and at a point they get us to discover the bigger purpose. And at the time that we are really going through it, it doesn't make sense. It's painful. Yes. All right. So now tell us how you started resilient woman. Which year did it start? How did it start? Where it is now? Take us with that journey. Yeah. So I did a course in conflict resolution in peace studies. And that was my first encounter with restorative justice. This approach that I'm so, so passionate about. And that was around actually more than 10 years ago. And when I learned about it, I actually it was so clear I would want to do something about I would want to do something with restorative justice. And so in 2013, I started writing down what it is that I wanted to do. So you put down your vision. Yes. I started writing down and actually I shared with one of the women leaders in Nairobi, it's not important to name, because I thought this person can actually guide me to navigate the process, you know, this is what I'm thinking, you know, I'm feeling so excited about it. And immediately when I wrote the email, they came back to me asking, yeah, so how can can you tell me more so that I can help? Then I gave more information and they disappeared. Wow. But anyway, so after that, I now got the opportunity in 2014, 2013 late 2014, I got the opportunity to visit prison and started with Langata Women's Prison. And for me, I wanted to understand the issues. And like I mentioned a little earlier in our conversation, what I thought was the need was, I thought I can give what I have. I have a background in Becom. So business skills maybe for the women, but then visiting prison, attending discharge boards, attending stakeholder meetings at the prison, you know, having meetings with the women, when they have meetings with their children, it just got so clear to me that what they need is actually not business skills. What did they need? They needed emotional stability. Yes, because through their journeys of, you know, going to prison and being in prison, they were exposed to potentially traumatizing experiences. The experiences were potentially traumatizing. And so even getting to hear about their stories just made it clear that what we need is actually trauma management training. And so I did a number on a number of visits, assessment, you know, just getting to talk to the women when the opportunity was there, hearing what the officers are saying, you know? And we now, I now got to speak to the, to like mind and people in my circle. Most of them are my schoolmates, others we volunteered with them. And I told them this is what is going through my mind. I would want to do this. And to be honest, they were not very clear what it is I'm talking about. But with time, they were able to understand that. And in 2014, we formed the organization Resilient Woman that got registered in 2016. 2016. Yes, 2016. Okay, but you started in 2014. We started in 2014, yes. In 2016, the process of registration went through. So you said that, you know, when you go to hear the stories, you realize that this women, it was trauma that led to them getting into prison. So what sort of trauma? Is it a case for many women inside there or, you know, a minor, you know, not the majority, just the minority? And what sort of trauma do they go through that lead them to do, you know, atrocities? So I mentioned that it was, we realized that women had been exposed to potentially traumatizing experiences. And some of the experiences, even after having our very initial training with the women in prison, is some women would say, I grew up without my mother. And so I joined some, you know, bad company, others and experiences of wanting to go abroad, looking for a passport, getting a fake, a not honest agent that is not honest, and getting a passport that is that is fake. And, you know, just realizing at the airport that I actually don't have the passport is not is not genuine and getting into prison. But out of actually, maybe 75% or to say they had experiences in childhood, they had experiences in childhood as much as we have others who had committed crimes of Omaeda, others they had done drugs, but there was a linkage between their experiences, the experiences that led them to prison in childhood experiences or trauma. So the training that you did back then, I understand that now you don't do the training in prison, you do it after that from prison. So the training you did in prison, how did you go about it? And what did you, what came out of the training? Well, we have done trainings in prison, we've done trainings in Meru, we've done trainings in Kericho, we have done trainings in Langata maximum prison for the women. And what came out of the pre of the training is it is an understanding or an understanding of the issues that women go through. Not just during, during imprisonment, but before imprisonment and the kind of impact that has. And for us, it was also an opportunity having carrying out the training in prison, it was an opportunity to also get to see the need of having a supportive staff in the prison, so that women are not getting another, an additional layer of trauma. By the way, they are being handled, you know, the experiences they have inside prison. And even the handling of their children with them in the prison. And so trauma-informed care for us is something that came very, very clear that there is need for trauma-informed care support for the support staff in prison. Because sometimes it is maybe how they interact with them without knowing the experiences that they have had, you know, the kind, the language so that it is a healing process, even their rehabilitation, but it's also a healing process. Yes. So do you talk with the supportive staff in prison to know how to communicate with the prisoners? Yes, we have done one training. We've done one training in Meru, trauma-informed care training actually, but this is really not a one-off thing. It's, it is need for continuous, continuous awareness and education, you know, around relationship between staff and the prisoners. Yes. So that there is, there is healing that is happening in the process as, as they interact, you know, as they get out, the rehabilitation, there is rehabilitation, but there is also healing. Yes. Tell us the entities or the programs that resilient women has. Yes. So our core program is trauma management training and mentorship for the women. And the mentorship happens or is supported by women that have been trained and identified from the churches. So we train them to be empathetic, to not be judgmental, to be supportive of the women when they leave prison, to just support them without stigmatizing or discriminating them. And then the other program is understanding the needs of the women that are coming from prison. And one of the major needs emotional stability, but the second one is income but also yes, the other one is income. And income helps them to be able to support all their needs, including the needs for their children. And so we came in to support their children through education. And right now we have around 25 children who are sponsored in the program, both in primary and secondary school. Yes. And then we have a teens program. The teens program was born as a result of a relationship we have with one of the mentees or one of the women that are in the mentorship program and who left prison in 2016. And in the mentorship program for the teenagers, we do different life skills programs. We have done creating positive relationships to help them handle relationships well, sex education, appropriate age, appropriate education. And then we have done a book club to enhance their skills. We have done a program called Singing to the Lions to help them face their fears and to also help them to go out to seek support when they need and to just understand what the resources are in the community in terms of can I speak to a pastor, can I speak to a chief? Yes. But we also have a program for children who are in prison with their mothers. And that one we provide materials for the children, like clothes, toiletries, soap, oil, you know. All right. So we'll get into those instances, but you know, about the mentorship for the women that are in prison. So you did the training when you started initially, you know, with the organization. And then currently you don't do the training. So inside prison, we don't do. You only do it after, after they're from prison. Yes. So take us through that journey. So now how do you get them after they're from prison until, you know. Yeah. So we work in partnership with the church because we are not just meeting the emotional parts of the needs for the women, but also the spiritual part. But we also think that it is in the church that we can get people who are, who have an understanding of the love of Christ and other people are still, you know, would love them. But we think that in the church we can, we have people who are more empathetic and, you know, although like I mentioned a little earlier, there's need for training because the suspicion still remains there because of, you know, because of the fear of not understanding, you know, these women, but, you know, these are our brothers and sisters. And it could be you. It could be me. Why do you think, before you continue, why should, you know, people coming from prison be embraced and supported when they come back to the society? Because they are human. Someone would argue, they did wrong, they murdered someone. They did, they did wrong. But what do we do when wrong happens? Is it a wrong and a wrong? And what is the most sustainable thing to do? It is to embrace them. It is to love them. It is to help them settle back. And they are remorseful. Some of them have accepted Christ. And people do not believe, they just want, they are in, at that point, they are like, you know, I am telling you, I have changed. Why don't you give me a chance? Why don't you believe that I have actually changed? So they have, they have changed and some of them have not. But the thing is, what is our role? Especially as a church. What do we do? We've been called to restore. For those that need help, we do not want to live with people who do not, I mean, to go to people who do not need help. Our, our mission is to reach out and to embrace them. So they are human beings. They are our brothers and sisters. They need support. And it is with that support that they will actually not go back to prison again, because some will, will even commit crimes again and go back to prison because it's easier for them in prison. That's the only place where they are embraced. Yeah, they are embraced by one of their own. Yeah. Okay. Yes. So I was explaining about how we get the women to, you know, to get to the trainings outside prison. And so working in partnership with the church, we are taking care of the emotional and the spiritual. But the church also, we partner with them to do missions in the church to reach out to the women and to the children who are in prison with their mothers. And at that time, we are telling them, this is who we are. This is resilient woman. When you come out, please don't be alone. Get in touch with us through the administration, the prison administration, they get in touch with the church and they are linked to the mentors with the, with the leave. And so they become part of the mentorship program in that way. Yes. So that's how they, we get them to be part of the trainings and the mentorship program. So now the mentorship program, you know, after the come out of prison, what exactly do you do? During the mentorship program, we link them up with the women that have been trained who have regular meetings with them. And first of all, what they do is they visit their families, the mentors, visit the families of the mentees, just to understand their needs, because first of all, they come to the locality, like we have a mentorship program in Kericho. So they come, when they come to the locality where the mentorship program is, they are aware that we run the program there, they reach out. The mentors then visit their families to just understand what their needs are and how the mentorship program can be supportive of them. And to identify what are the needs of the children? Do we have children that were left when the mom went to prison? What are they doing? Where are they? Are they going to school? Is there anything that this woman can do to get back on their feet in terms of income? Are there social networks that they can join, groups of women? So all this is done during the mentorship program and by the mentor. So that's the kind of thing that happens in the mentorship. So what sort of results do you see? What impact do you see, after you've trained them? And how long is the mentorship? And tell us the impact of the mentorship and also in their children, those that are with them in prison and come out after? The impact is huge. Right now we have 26 women and men. I mentioned that we started with the women. But along the way as mentors interact with the community, they came across men and they have been coming from the mentorship program. And so we have around 26 in total in the mentorship program. And the change is the confidence that the women and the men are getting, even as they reintegrate, because they have been accepted. They have been showed love. Somebody is interested in them. We are not isolating them because that is a really big need for them because of the stigma, because of the discrimination. So getting them, accepting them, reaching out to them and telling them you can be part of the program, that is one, it's a stabilizing factor for them. But we also have seen them begin to join groups because the mentorship program also does education in the community. And so they join groups and become, you know, they have a social network. They are not alone, you know. It's not just a mentor in the mentee. They are getting a network of support through groups, through the church. And the desire to really want to be alone or even want to commit a crime to go back to prison, it diminishes. So there is that confidence. And the fact that they can also just begin want to do something and support their children, because that is a really, it's a real need. You know, when your child is not stable, when they are not taken, when they are suffering, you also do not, you're emotionally affected, you're psychologically affected. Yes. Okay. I read somewhere you say intimacy with the inmates frees me. Yeah, it's just to say that loving them and accepting them, it's only by reading for me because that's a practical love of Christ. Yes, it is just getting to understand their needs. You know, it is getting to know this is a human being, just like me. It could be my sister, it could be my brother, because getting into prison, sometimes you are caught up in circumstances. Just getting to understand this person and helping them through their journey and reconnect with the community, reconnect with the families, begin their life back, you know, after prison. For me, it's a success. Yes. What fuels your, you speak with so much passion, you know, what, what keeps you going, even when, you know, in the amidst difficulty when they are hardship, because I know that it's not old Rosie doing this. So what are some of the challenges and what keeps you going? What fuels your passion? Yeah, I think that some of the challenges, you know, you can't save the worlds because resources are not there. Sometimes, you know, people will, you have, you know, because one of the things that we have our course program, like I said, is trauma management training and mentorship and support to take care of the emotional stability. But we have not been able to take care of the income aspect as much as we need. And that is a very, a major part of the life of the women. And so women will want to start businesses, you know, but we've not been able to do that as much as we would because of the limitations in resources. But we also have many women that have children that need support. We can't get all the children right now in the program, in the sponsorship program, because again, we are not as resources we should be. So those are some of the challenges. Yeah, but I mean, you do what you have, what you can with what you have. Yes, so you can't wait to have all the resources in the world. Yeah. So the fact that you can't do everything sometimes is stressing. It feels like I wish I had all the resources in the world to be able to do this. What gives keeps me going? I think I think I love, I love people. I love to see people thrive. I like to see people, you know, exert relationships. I love to see people just being in terms with each other. Yeah. And for me, growing, getting the women to grow and to be happy, even when we meet, it's such an exciting thing that they are not stressed about where they are coming from. They are happy and they are getting back to their feet. So it's exciting for me to just see them get back to their feet. Right. You're doing great stuff. We celebrate you too. Thank you so much. As we come to a close, welcome. As we come to a close, tell us, tell people, you can talk to the camera, tell us how we can support your mission. You can support your organization. I know there's an upcoming, you know, event you're doing on menstrual hygiene. Tell us how we can support you and how we can get you on your social platforms. That's your camera. Yes. So you can support by creating awareness and indicating the people about the needs of people affected by imprisonment. That is a main, main and important thing that you can help us with because there is a lot of stigma. There is a lot of discrimination. There is a lot of lack of support for the women and men when they are getting back to the community after prison. And so you can educate people. Let people know that this person could be your brother, it could be your sister, it could be anyone. And what would you do to your brother or your sister? Would you do the same to somebody else outside the circle of your family? Then number two, you can also help us by volunteering your skills. Volunteering your skills in our program. We have programs in mentorship for the teenagers. There are different activities that we do, so you can support that. You can also support by, we have an upcoming event on 28th of May. It is menstrual hygiene day. And the theme is making menstruation a normal fact of facts of life by 2030. That is the theme. And in this, it is not just giving sanitary pads, which you can give, but it is bringing on board boys and other people because we want to create allies. We don't want to create, to have people who shame the girls when they are in awkward situations. We want to create allies. We want to educate people around girls to be able to support them during their menstruation times. So you can support with providing the sanitary pads by giving. You can visit our website, www.resilientwomanofafrica.org. Resilient Woman of Africa on Facebook. Yes, and you can also write to us, resilientwomanthriveatmail.com. And that way you will be able to reach us. Thank you very much, Lucy. We are glad to have you. We support you. Keep doing what you do. Thank you so much. Really, really appreciate it. Welcome. That has been Lucy Carambo, founding director of Resilient Woman. You have had it all. We celebrate such women. Let's take a short break. We'll be back with the next interview.