 I'm seeing so many people sending in their comments as we continue. I'm seeing here at Kevin and as I'm watching you live from Kaka Mega County enjoying the show. I'm seeing a comment here by, this is Patricia saying she's enjoying the show live in the discussion. Very candid with Honrabolo Court. Thank you very much for your comments. You don't have to give us your thoughts even as we continue with this conversation tonight. The hashtag is the stand K.E. at Y254 channel at Ramagoko at E.O. Court. Remember to also give us your take in regards to what we are asking today. What is the Kenya we need? What is the Kenya that you need? Give us your take. Remember, I'm with Honrabolo Court tonight right here on Y254 Meshimiwa. We need to change the language here. When you keep on calling people honorable, that thing goes into people's minds. This is why leadership in this country is failing. We need to revoke that name. We need to call people even by their own names and by their titles. I've seen this title Honrabolo really creating big-headed leadership that actually does not serve the people. Because I can see people being preoccupied with the title Honrabolo. Looking for that title. Meshimiwa. And yet you can actually try to find out what Honrabolo think of these people done. As long as you vowed for a political seat you're called Honrabolo. In the issue of parliamentary democracy, you can only be addressed as Honrabolo actually on the floor of parliament. Okay. And outside the floor? We call you by your name. Dr. Wukot. That's what I struggled for. That's what you struggled for. People will not be elected. I don't know why people will call me Honrabolo when I'm not elected. A professor. I'm not a professor yet. Maybe one day, one time. You should have said a man. It will happen. I'm a very optimistic person. Let me quote Meshimiwa. You put that thing in my head Meshimiwa. Let me quote Prof. Piolo Lumumba. A good man. A good man. Very intelligent. He taught me law. It is a criminal procedure. I met him once. He inspired me. He said that I have seen it in the first BBI report. That there are plans to expand the executive to create space for ethnic representation. That should not guide our discussion. The constitutional change should only be for the benefit of our posterity. Absolutely. I couldn't agree no more with my good friend Lumumba. First of all, remember Prof. Lumumba was actually the secretary of the CKRC. The Constitution of Kenya Review Commission. That led us to a referendum in 2005. He participated actively in the constitution making process. I know he speaks a lot about governance in many parts of Africa and internationally. He means what he is saying. I concur with him absolutely. The constitutional change should not be about benefiting individuals. It is about the prosperity of a country and its people. How best can you ensure representation under this constitution? Let me tell you Ramya. If your program is about being brutally honest, we are over-represented in this country. Let me give you an example. Do you think today a Kuruakot can actually go to Siaya or Kisumu, run for governor and be elected as governor? Why not? It is the ideal situation. We have soon a East member parliament. It is the ideal situation. But chances are very high Alua will be elected. Aturkana will be elected in Turkana. Asomali will be elected in Mandera, in Wajiri, in Garisa. I am Taita, I am Taita Taveta will be elected in Taita Taveta. You know the story. Anandi will be elected in Nandi County or in Bombay. Kipsiges will be elected in Bombay, in Kericho. I would like to give you an example. That is how. Forget about that. I know you want to talk about Junete, but we will talk about that. Even in Kisumu East? Yes. But you see they have to suck up to a certain leader to be elected. That's the reality. Junete even said he is in Ngombay. I am somebody's cow. He sits actually to be a representative of the people of Suna. Is it Suna West? Suna East. He said it himself. When we are here, we are cows. So because he is owned, he is imposed on people. He is not elected because he stands for something. But when a leader comes and says he is a cow, I follow so and so, whichever way they tell me, then you wonder whether that is... The basic question there stands. Exactly. But what I am telling you is this. Kenya today is over-represented. We don't need ethnic representation in amending the constitution of Kenya. Because look at the 47 counties of Kenya. Predominantly, in Kiambu, it will be a miracle not to elect a kikuyu. In Muranga, in Kirinyaga, in Nyeri. It will be a miracle not to elect a Meru in Meru County. I mean, I am optimistic. I wish there will be a time in Kenya when the character of our politics will be such that you can actually elect Aturukana as a governor in Kirinyaga. Such that a man from Cape Do can vie. Exactly. And people can listen to me and say, I think he has good ideas. Let's elect him. But the real politic is that this is not the situation in Kenya. It's different. So to that extent, we are ethnically represented. Let's go to the members of parliament. Again, there is an ethnic representation there. Let's go to senators. Again, an ethnic representation. Members of the county assembly. Again, ethnic representation. As a matter of fact, we need to reduce this narrative, talk about ethnicity and gravitate ourselves towards talking how to build a nation state. Today in Kenya Ram, we are actually not even a nation. What are we? We are a conglomeration of ethnic identities. We tend to be a nation. We are an assembly of tribes. And that's why you can see our politics is so ethnic, is so tribal. Why are you downgrading the opposition? Which opposition? A conglomeration of ethnic identities. That's what we are. We are just an assembly of tribes. And look, predominant in our discussion today, is the idea mutuetu, our tribe, that our person has to be in state house. Let's be brutally honest. Okay. 2017. Let's talk about the real politic in Kenya. Uru Kenyatta. Rai laudinga. Okay. You were there? Yes, I was there. But in terms of the people who spoke, I mean, galvanist, their tribal regions and their tribes, you can clearly say, and I'm a realist here, that Uru Kenyatta went to the Kikui people. And what did he say? He told them that kimondomugoroki in Kikui meaning that mad person. And he told them, you know, udama kini wito, dama kini shiao. That leadership is ours. But the fish is theirs. But now that was... That narrative was changed. No, it never changed. Wait. And that's what they pretend I want to tell you about. Rai laudinga, on the other hand, was a busy muuru. Saying, oh, the river Mulevi. Conduct amazing. That's what he was saying. But what happened in 2018, they came together. So the people... Coming together there by changing the narrative. Their base are now disillusioned. That's what I'm saying. Politics of ethnicity in this country does not help the common monangi. It only helps an elite political class who weep the emotions of their tribes or the regions they come from for them to occupy certain positions for their own common interest. I can also give you another example. Look at the choreography around 2022. It's not about Kenya. It's not about the people of Kenya. It's about the preservation of personal interests of certain individuals. It's not about Kenya. It's not about you and I. There is no single Kenyan today that will feed on tribal politics. If honestly you are not able to make a living and unless even learned from the example of COVID-19. Today in COVID-19, how come we don't run to a tribe and say because in 2017 I was crazy fighting for my tribe or my tribal person to occupy a certain position let my person now help me out with COVID-19. Because right now the virus doesn't know tribe. Doesn't know tribe. If we don't have a medical cover, infact even now having a medical cover is almost useless because medical insurances have conspired to say that COVID-19 is not covered. Tribal politics is actually idiocy at its very best. And let's be honest about it. There is a level of mediocrity in this country that you think that if our own that if our own occupies a certain public position then I also benefit. Today how many kikuis can say they are benefiting because Urumwege Kenyatta from the kikui community is the president. How many Luos today benefit because Raela Amolo Dinga finally shook hands with Urumwege Kenyatta and therefore we also benefit. How many Turkana people today will benefit because a Kurao court is occupying a certain position. This nonsense has to stop. And I think Kenyans we really need to have a candid conversation about ourselves. And this is for me the Kenya that I really want. The Kenya where tribe is not the defining you know the defining denominator of any political leader why for any seat. Yes. It is thank God I wish we could actually celebrate our identity because the way I see tribe many tribes in Kenya positively. I ask myself knowing Kenya right now is Kenya Kenya without kikuius, Turkanas, Boni, Malakote, Sengwera. We all make Kenya. Nandi, Kalengin, Luya. Would you say that is Kenya without any of those tribes? No. My Kenya that I want is one where I celebrate diversity. Now. Now. And if we can celebrate our different cultures and that unity, that for me is how we can say we have a nation state where we are all proud to belong to. In last month's years we are talking about these issues of constitution. Shun do you also be addressing integrity of elections even though we address at the same time how to change the constitution to accommodate. Absolutely. And what is your issue about integrity of elections? The debate has been there in regards to election integrity. The IBC has been put into question. Your party to put IBC into question. Let me tell you first of all for the avoidance of doubt. Yes. I will defend IBC as currently constituted. Because I've looked at the history of electoral management bodies in this country since 1997. At every election election year Ram 1997 2002, 2007 2013, 2017 now going towards 2022 we have always had a different IBC Why? Because there are individuals in this country who have a sense, a false sense of entitlement that if they don't have the kind of IBC that favors them then the election lacks integrity. And I say let me give you an example. And that narrative is always advanced by people who failed to capture the presidency. That is the common denominator. Or by people who have captured the presidency but do not now want trust this referee. How come then Ram that the integrity of IBC is not questioned by those people who are declared as winners by IBC? For example You've given that narrative. Let's be brutally honest here. How come we are not seeing a mass resignation of those senators, MPs, governors, MCA's women rep who were declared as winners by IBC? But because a certain group did not capture the presidency or form the government they want to change IBC. The youth are also crying that they are not getting political seats. This is hypocrisy. Forget it. We will come to the youth. This is hypocrisy of the highest order. For example you want us to be honest We will come to the youth. There are people who have called for the disbandment of IBC. But today as we speak they are actually in bed with the government that was declared as a winner by IBC. Why then will you legitimize a government declared or formed by a person who was declared a winner by IBC? We have double standards when it comes to these issues. Absolutely. We have double standards. We are selfish leaders who that if it is not them who drive a certain political narrative in this country then that narrative is not worth it. What about the youth? How can we also ensure that the youth also have a piece of the cake? Let me tell you the youth in this country should stop lamenting and being curious saying that we are being marginalized. I have challenged many youth groups that I speak to. Please spare me this talk about we are the majority we want the cake. If you are the majority, use your numbers. What has stopped you with your majority from forming the next government? From even electing the kind of president that you want. From even electing a youthful president what has stopped you? The same question can be asked of women that youth and women are the majority in Kenya. But yet we are the ones who line up in political rallies throw stones at each other because of gray haired fellows. You were even against the women representative seat. Why? In your proposal? Actually I wasn't against. I was first of all from 2010 I was in a team that actually fought so hard to create those positions because we wanted to give the women of Kenya a political voice to champion certain aspects common to them or of interest to them. For example, even an issue to do with reproductive health right I would have expected women the 47 voices of women can be elected together with the nominated to stand on one particular issue. But over time we've seen that those women representatives have actually failed even the gender debate. They have not seen them stand up in parliament and say Mr. President of Kenya you brought us a list of cabinet secretaries, PSS, ambassadors that has not met the third gender rule as prescribed in the constitution. I would have expected that protest. And when we went to Kenyans and Kenyans told us it's time for us to punguza mizigo they said one of the mizigo we have to punguza is this women's rep because we don't see the value of it. Was it in your document as punguza mizigo? That's why for me I modified it to say we cannot ignore the voices of women in reducing representation which Kenyans agreed less elect one man and one woman. I was actually helping the gender discourse actually advancing it further by saying now we want representation between men and women to be at 50-50 women of Kenya don't have to beg and I also do not want them to wear the tag women representative I wanted them to come from the counties as elected members of parliament and that's why we said one man, one woman and that is the equality the equity we are looking for so I wasn't undermining women representative we are just saying the current women representative are not doing their job as envisioned by the authors of this question or by the people of Kenya but instead I wanted to put them at power with men in national assembly and in senate now let's over to the senate that you've mentioned there one of the major roles of the senate is to protect the interests of counties of counties do you think that they have managed this to fulfill this mandate so far? actually senate is a failed institution as we speak even right now the settlement with regard to the revenue the formula is a failure I don't understand why 12 people whose mandate in the constitution is to protect the interests of the counties cannot agree to actually on a formula that will benefit the counties their first client is the county but look at what's happening to the senate of Kenya today it is apparently clear that they are being controlled by the executive and that's why before this formula became an issue you saw parliamentary group meetings organized by the two main two main or the former two main protagonists by now brothers in politics to bring changes to the political leadership they actually, I mean to the senate they actually just they've lacked independence of thought I've seen some of the members of parliament but I also have hope because I've seen some fairly young senators like Nasakaja and the rest standing up and saying we cannot right this wrong whereas there are good elements within the constitution I mean the senate there but overall senate in my view has actually failed and which is why when we went to the people of Kenya in terms through at cult 257 the popular initiative and we asked them what changes would you expect so that to make this constitution more effective you know what they told us in one voice I read your report abolish the senate because Kenyans now are asking hard question what is the value of representation they still want representation but qualitative representation in your initial Pungusamizigo right now you have Pungusamizigo Kenya in the initial document we had you are saying that the senate should be made the upper house and be given veto powers but right now it is that the senate should reduced reduced in terms of representation the numbers but right now you are saying that the senate should be abolished what is the difference what made the change from the initial to the current so initially I am a strong believer strong believer of checks and balances checks and balances can be acquired in various aspects for example since we have adopted the idea of a bicameral house two houses in our current constitution it is not clear whether one house is up above the other and therefore it is not able to check on the exigences of another house in the initial proposal I pushed for the proposal that let's have senate but with reduced membership of just only only 47 no nomination no nothing but let it be a upper house as it is in many democracies of the world actually ours is a laugh about democracy because we gave ourselves this constitution I mean these two houses but we never distinguish which one can actually veto the powers of the other which again takes us back to the discussion constitutional amendment so our initial proposal which for me I favor is to maintain a bicameral house but give it veto power and let it be a upper house that can actually check the exceses of the lower house but that's not the current position that's not the current position so when I took the Pungusamizigo bill or when we took the Pungusamizigo bill to at least 29 county assemblies that we visited and presented the views they gave us feedback as two democrats we said ok this is useful feedback and of course we balanced interest it's not necessarily about what a kuru are caught once it's also about what majority of Kenyans want majority of Kenyans told us to be honest if you look at the old amit of representation we don't see this senate as representing as it was envision in the 2010 constitution so that's why they propose abolish it that's why we put that recommendation so again it's up to Kenyans ok now even as you continue because time is not also on our side here I'd like it to give us a take Governor Wycliffe Oparanya said this and I quote we express our discontent with senate's failure to build consensus on the third generation formula which has consequently delayed the approval of the county allocation of Revenue Act 2020 now what is your stand about the move by the county council of governors when they announce that counties will be shut down if there will be no solution by September 17 people like Oparanya are hypocrites they pretend they speak for the counties but again they are subservient to political manipulation last year when we were proposing Punguza Mizigo and actually bringing more money to the county through a constitutional amendment and not leaving it to the decisions of the senators it is Oparanya and others who led came up with something called Uga Tusi initiative and Uga Tusi initiative was meant to undermine Punguza Mizigo Kenya that was actually bringing more money to the counties through a concrete amendment and entrenched amendment to the constitution so that we do not have today to be discussing about this third generation formula at the mercy of senators it is Oparanya who proposed that was coming to benefit the counties so why is he playing double speak now he is playing double speak because that time he was playing politics but the counties are experiencing a struggle at the moment closure of counties by September 17 it is unfortunate that if we accept ourselves to go that route Senators to that extent agree with Senators Oparanya that yes governor Senators are failing because their first client should be the counties should be the counties but I also want him to be absolutely honest with himself not to play double speak not to play politics of experience 80 party leader of ODM the party leader of ODM as control over is the members in senate and national assembly instead of crying this crocodile tears that he is showing why can't he actually talk to his party leader who can then talk to his political brother who now control senate and national assembly to make sure that this decision is arrived at how come it was so easy Ram when they wanted to change the political leadership in senate it was a matter of hours and changes took place when they wanted to change the leadership in national assembly it was a matter of hours what has become so difficult now in the senate let's head over to twitter and find out and just sample a few tweets here I'm seeing Simon and Nesema daughter court is so focused we have Joseph Okome he is saying tuning from McQuinney county doctor court is a man of vision I trust in him we have Don King should it be the Kenya we want I said the Kenya we need which is which which one is most strong I think for me need is almost like a basic and I think well it could be a question of semantic but I think we are talking about the difference between need and want but I think it's also about I think the desire for a Kenya that everybody is comfortable and everybody is enjoying certain benefits people have said someone is saying here I love the discussion but as much as we want to make it enticing using some some examples is not good doctor court please there are some words someone is saying that there are some words that you used in reference to a few things that he is not agreeing with you okay I don't know which words I wish he was very categorical which was I can defend myself but I take the you take it huh I'm seeing here we have one one was saying what's the stand on the changing the time limits for governor is BBI is coming with this that is at Alfred Lagat remains a rumor to me until we see the report it remains a rumor to you and by the way we are all waiting to see what people will be saying even as you continue waiting we have but how come people are not comparing the Punguza Mizigo proposal which are concrete and out there you know it will be useful if you can actually make Kenyans understand no but at least if there are proposals about amending the constitution at least help Kenyans understand okay this is what third way alliance Kenya is saying this is what other people are saying infact I suspect if you are to compare the two proposals you probably see third way alliance Kenya all the ten areas of proposal how BBI will be zero zero Doctoria I want us to wrap it up final question before we leave studio 2022 is coming are you vying for presidency you vying for it in 2017 I find the discussion around 2022 a little bit premature at this stage and I say this because like I started this show by saying that what is my stand about the Kenya that I want or the Kenya that I need I would learn a number of issues to do with for example the healthcare infrastructure in this country education employment opportunities the fact that people are now being foreclosed by banks by creditors I wish you could actually focus on the issues that impact on Kenyans today 2022 if it comes and I pray for life 2022 if 2022 comes we will make that decision then but for now really it is for me not about 2022 it is right now about how do we even reopen this economy how do we address the question of unemployment the challenges that the youth of this country are going through the reason I share away from discussing about 2022 is because we keep on pushing Kenyans into just a discussion around elections without necessarily saying what has been the outcome of an election in addressing the problems of Kenyans I wish you could focus on those issues like now Ram schools are opening there is a big challenge many parents today as we speak are not able to afford school fees right now the country is on survival mode everybody is on survival mode but I think I am on survival mode like many other Kenyans we are actually beginning to wonder are we able to afford all our bills and for how long those are the kind of discussion that I wish we can actually have right now 2022 I would like you to know that is fair enough in fact that is progressive now speaking of progressive let's speak to the youths who also need to see that progress youths organize yourself this country belongs to you in equal measure to those other people who have used you for the longest time the youth of this country needs to organize themselves and actually be on the dining table not be on the dining table as dinner but as diners I had to keep on hearing that we are the leaders of tomorrow this lamentation about that we are being marginalized the youth of Kenya need to stop that discussion and mobilize themselves and say ok what is our interest even if we go by the narrative that the politics about interest then the youth of Kenya must also now say what is our interest in this country if this country is going to be destroyed by corruption looking at for example how people are stealing even covid money it's the youth of Kenya who are going to suffer they will not have a future for someone like me at my age the only thing standing between me and life is death and can happen anytime and I think the youth of this country need to jealously guard this country and take care of their daily life daily struggles which happens today not tomorrow thank you very much doctor that is doctor Ekuru giving us his stand right here on why to fight for it it has been a pleasure wishing you the best keep doing what you are doing thanks for inviting me to the show look forward to coming back again thank you very much and as always it has also been a pleasure having you this brings us to the end of the stand today see you again next week God bless you have a good night my name is Ram Aguco this is the stand