 I say after all these years our feed prices always do follow our corn prices I know you guys love to raise barley up here to and we eat and everything else But you know you get further south corn is king and it's just alfalfa's queen the corn's king and You know our feed prices follow the corn price everything else is based off the corn price You'll see one of the examples in here that it sets the corn price corn price does it and right now Corn prices are pretty soft. Let's take a trip back through memory lane. Okay. This is October 2012 Those are corn price just four years ago. We had six and a half dollar corn Wow, so you put together feed meetings like this and talk about feeding cattle and you're going six and a half dollar corn Does this work? Well calf prices are high, too So it's a margin business right inputs if it all works at the end that it kind of works with that back Then we had six and a half dollar corn alfalfa was a hundred and forty bucks a ton grass say it was 80 wheat Meds are 250 really wow the stills grains is 250 a Year later it's down to four bucks and of course alfalfa. Hey went down wheat meds are 145 distiller grains 165 Market keeps tumbling corn follows the lead. Let's go to Yeah, 2016 and wait a minute. Yeah, October 2014 and Corn price is 268 a bushel and I'm going okay wheat meds are 92 distiller grains I didn't remember that two years ago our corn our feed prices are that low It just didn't kind of seem right. That's because our cattle prices are so extremely high We forgot how cheap feed was but that's where it was so you look two years later, and you go wow We got wheat meds at 115 had a ninety three dollars a ton distiller grains at a hundred dollars a ton at the plants Corns to 90. Well, that's if you're buying it if you're selling it what I Don't know guys. I'm not my location, but down around Carrington two and a half could probably Yeah, you'd be thankful to get that so all of a sudden it's pretty recent applies feed to put through your cow I had a call about two weeks ago from a grain farmer and It just shells a different perspective that you have young guy probably late 20s Yeah, young guy late 20s got a neighbor who's got a feed yard with a thousand head that's empty And he's going I got a half million bushels of corn Can I add some value to my corn by feeding it through cattle? Well, just roughly you say if you got a five weight calf you're gonna feed them up to eight weight You might use 30 bushels of corn to do that with If you make $30 ahead And gave all the profit to the calf. I mean to the corn he could make a bush of buck a bushel And I'm going he's just happier and crap because of that. I'm looking at going 30 bucks ahead really You want to do all that work for 30 bucks? He's looking to add in value to his corn. It's a different perspective, but we'd have cheap feed prices That just kind of kills me Now we're way up here in this area, right? I think that's where I am tonight I'm from this area and as you keep going down through here. We got a whole bunch of co-product feeds in our area It's available. There's lots of it. It's freight to get it up here So I'm not sure if you want to add 10 15 $20 a ton to everything that I have up there For your type of freight cost to have feed up here But we got a lot of different feeds available in North Dakota There is a sheet in the back of the room that has selected co-products and prices It's from all those feed meals that I just showed earlier on the previous slide And it's got prices and phone numbers and the phone numbers change So if you're looking for feed and you want to buy semi loads You can call these people up and see what type of a deal they can give you now the spot prices I have are outdated as soon as I hang up the phone So realize you might get a better deal and they're quote me or maybe worse whatever the case is. Good luck Let's do some quick Quick nutrition here seven weight calf eats around three percent of body weight Of course, maybe it's only 2.6 or 2.7, but 20 pounds of feed to a seven weight calf That's about right of course of that 20 pounds of feed if you dry it completely So it's totally dry. It's around 17.8 pounds of dry matter. We'll probably need That amount of energy to get into the calves. That's TDM. This is mega cals The ration should be around a 13% protein ration if you're gonna have three pounds a day gain or or better Now what I'm trying to say here is that the most expensive ingredient in your ration is going to be the energy content So if you do the math for energy, we need 14 pounds of TDM That's total digestible nutrients and we do the math calculation for corn the energy content of corn It's about a nickel a pound So the TDM value comes over here around 70 cents ahead a day just for energy content to keep them going Now protein if we had to figure the protein all that 13% They'd need 40 cents of protein, but there's a fallacy here and that is This number right here contains some protein in it when you buy corn. It's 9% protein. There's You paid for the energy now the proteins for free So if you do the math down here you take the total amount of protein Pounds minus what was in the corn that you bought for the energy You got to buy an extra six tenths of a pound of protein to make the ration balance Well times 18 cents a pound gives you only 10 cents. So the feed cost The energy cost of the feed was 70 cents. The protein cost was 10 cents energy drives it So if you can buy feeds that are cheaper in cost corn because it's higher TDM distill those grains because it's higher in TDM as well plus protein That's where you got to focus on sometimes. I hear people talk about protein. We need more protein ration No, she got to remember is look at the energy content. That's your cost. That's where you get the gain from water is important to It's actually really cheap if you don't have it's a bad deal, but even row waters cheap in our area where we're at Two cents a day isn't bad. Okay? Now I got a slide here to talk about Different feedstuffs and cost per pound of TDM or cost per pound of crude protein canola mill The top line is as fed bottom line is 90% dry matter Excuse me. This is a dry basis right here and canola mill is 90% dry matter when you buy it So it's a 38% crude protein feed on an as-fed basis TDN is 62% Cost per ton is 178 bucks if you want to get it from Velva Cost per pound is around 9 cents cost per pound of crude protein is 22 Cost per pound of energy is a dollar 43. Well, let's look at wheat mids go across to your hundred bucks a ton Huh cost around a protein. It's not a protein source, but when you buy wheat mids You got 18% protein in the feed so you kind of get that for free Look at the energy cost of that if you take all those dollars and just divide the energy out It comes up to about seven cents. Do the same thing with corn, huh? corn sets the price Wheat mids you got a whole home. This is going to be 290 corn so if you got your corn at home at 250 you don't have to haul it anywhere You know you get to decrease that price even more, but you kind of see the relationships going on distillers grains That's a sleeper out there because of the energy kind of distillers grains is pretty high It actually and they're only asking a hundred bucks a ton right now be for freight and that's a blue flint We're at about six cents a pound So energy wise these are cheap things. Okay now if you look at protein if you got a support give protein in the ration What's your cheapest source of protein here? Now you know why distillers grains always talked about in our cattle rations just It's a very competitive source of energy and protein so and it works really well with all the rest of our feeds So we have and we produce so much of it in North Dakota if I remember right I think we could feed 18 pounds of distillers grains to every cow for every day of the year We'd still have more feed to ship out of state We have that much distillers grains. Oh, we got some unique things going on this year For 2016 17 there's some wheat and barley up here That's got a really high level of Amatox and I understand and it's really discount We did research at Carrington about 15 years ago on high levels of Amatox and barley we fed it Background and calves finishing calves pregnant cows lactating cows bread heifers Didn't see any issue with feeding any vomatox and any of those now It's really tough to feed calves 100% barley diet right so you always blend it off with some hay So when you come up with 28 parts a million blend off the hay It's probably down around 18 20 parts a million. We fed those levels didn't see any problems matter of fact in one group The bread heifer group we actually had more bread heifers in the group Those give them vomatox and contaminated barley than the ones that weren't I Don't believe it, but it just goes to reaffirm that it's not that big of a deal guys For feeding cattle you can do it to horses poultry Bison sheep but not pigs. That's why it's called vomit makes them puke So don't down and humans it's limited to how much we can have an a ration It kills the head and beer in the malt so you know Yeah, we don't do vomit toxin for ourselves, but for cattle if you can feed it through them Boy, that's a cheap source of feed. They had a lot of rain in my area sorrow Falfa haze just kind of washed out rain washes the sugars out the protein can stay there But your sugar content really goes down So be careful how much antigers there we've got a lot of people that had held had hail damaged annual crops and They took it for hay we had a lot of regrowth to the people are trying to take for hay right now Or maybe they did a couple weeks ago still waiting for it to dry down our crop product feeds are abundant Nobody out of states trying to take them. So Well, they do take them but We could use them here too. It's a nice thing. You know, you get away from North Dakota you go to like Montana or Mid others locations. They don't have as many coparotic feeds as we have Available us to North Dakota Not every state has a couple of wheat mid mills or four like we do and their state mill and elevators a huge huge consumer That's our own state elevator, you know anyway In 2014 we had the same issues plus we had sprouted wheat and high moisture corn this year It seems like the corn's kind of dry, but oh Mycotoxins Quick little lesson on mycotoxins They can be in fee if you see mold you might have mycotoxins Not all the times doesn't do you have it? And we fed a lot of moldy feed to our cows and they seem to keep moving But we also have mycotic abortions that can be documented You can have animals that just don't do as well and usually when you have mold you have some type of Heating going on in the bale, which means there's some respiration going on which means there's some Nutrients being metabolized by the molds that are growing so there's less feed value in the hay if it's moldy Little less well, you can have a test it go to our end issue veterinary diagnostic lab and the cost you $150 They test for a lot of different things and these are probably the worst ones if you're down in the southern part of the nation Like Louisiana there they have some aphelotoxins showing up So there's a big concern on how what the level there is we nearly see now aphelotoxins up here rarely never almost Almost never but we do see things like Zeraunon. I just talked about Pomatoxin, you know the Raugrow implants the active ingredient Raugrow implants is this product right here It has estrogenic activity. So Get some old and you're worried about your heifers or your heifers didn't breed Maybe it's all right to go ahead and check out the feed to see just what the levels are and I've taken some stuff That's black and moldy and say we shouldn't feed this come back with absolutely no toxins. It's obviously moldy But there were no toxins anybody blue cheese Isn't that right cheese that's got the mold in it yet some molds aren't bad. How about corn smut? Can we eat corn smut? And if you're down south Mexico, it's like a delicacy. I I probably wouldn't eat it the name sounds bad, but you know If you want to vomit toxin test it's 50 bucks and there's numerous things you can test for You dilute it out in the ration. That's usually a solution if it's too bad I hate the idea of taking mold counts because that all that tells me is that's moldy if you're doing dairy cows You want to have a target for your mold counts to be down so like increase or you feed and take and eat more That's a good thing for dairy cows before a beef cows What are you going to do with your moldy? Hey, you're going to feed it, aren't you? probably So the mold counts don't really tell you anything this will tell you if there's a problem with the molds that are up there so I Got to talk about individual differences here a little bit. We have a Lot of variability in our type of calves we have out here go to the cell barn I look through the calves or or what I do a project at Carrington where we feed calves out to finish and it's part of the Dakota feeder calf show and We just started our what 18th year here October 15th We got a couple hundred head of calves on feed Everybody brings in three or four head of calves are placed on feed and we feed them out to finish slaughter in May and Bring you back the carcass dead and how they perform during the feeding period and all that We took the top five pens of calves So that's we average to the top five pens Then I average the bottom five pens and this is what the top five cans did they did average to three point two eight per Pounds a gain per day of age and feedlot average day of the gain was only three point five six They made well was bad year last year for buying expensive calves and sell them We don't lost five bucks ahead on on the top calves on the bottom calves And this is like 40 different group 50 different groups of calves They gained three point zero nine pounds per day of age and the feedlot average age they gained was only three point Seven but look at the loss In just a half a pound to gain difference in how these calves can perform Led up to a huge loss at the end of the feeding period when everybody's killed in the same day that just kind of a Lot of variability So if you got the type of calves are like this, I'm kind of saying why aren't you feeding them? You got the calves that are like this They got to be managed different maybe grown whatever You got to find it another way to try to pull them out and get more value out of them rather than how you treat these calves Okay, weight gains affected by a lot of different things size and age the animal young animals usually gain really well old animals, you know They might put on a lot of gain for a short period of time Like yearlings coming off of grass, but then they're kind of done calves keep growing if they're green or fleshy or stunted those never grow Sickness infects a calf throughout the whole feeding period. They just They get sick once they don't perform as well as if they'd never have a bad day We see that our research extension center in these calves We usually bound back and they look like you expect some compents story gain But if you look at it, they're always dogging it a little bit as time goes on Maybe it'll maybe won't see it in the game, but you might see it in the marbling and that might be the difference between select and choice So yeah, it shows up Implants work. There's a lot of different implants had the question asked last time or implants really worth it Yeah, one implants worth 25 pounds of weight another implant could be worth 50 75 depending upon what you're doing in the feeding program We have feed additives you can put in the feed op to flex those are all put in at the end of the feeding period for 25 days They do substantially put more weight on cattle if you're finishing cattle us backgrounding people don't even think about that because it's not available to us Or we shouldn't use it Wind will kill calf performance snow will hurt them not as bad as mud will walking through six inches of mud really kills your performance The calves bedding always helps where there's been some research done at Carrington that if you Put down bedding you'll see calves are just a little more They gain a little bit better and have higher quality grades when they go to market So you ask how much bedding is bedding? No kidding five pounds a day Double it would be generous really generous bedding But if you do your math you like to see calves bed down You like to go ahead and lay down in the bedding at the same time just you know That's kind of my thumb rule if you're gonna bed down calves if I don't want to lay in it After I got done I didn't do a good enough job And that takes on the average five pounds go figure it out someday Be surprised if it's less than that let me know if it's more than that Let me know just kind of interesting. Okay affected by feed energy density You know grain gives you more gain because there's more energy in it than hey There's additives we can add manansin. Oh, that's room ensign and what Sal said that's boba tech they improve feed conversion for five to seven percent Processing mixing always helps to and of course try to avoid feed losses now go through some rations on their costs Okay, we're going to deal with 700 pound steers and we've got about 12 different rations. I'll show you and Top is going to be rations gain feed to gain TDN that energy for gain feed cost to gain Here's a ration. It's got 10 pounds of grass a 10 pounds of barley malt sprouts The spouts give some protein to the ration as well as the energy we're going to only get to put two pounds a day gain on these seven weight calves given that and 45 cent cost to gain given the prices I showed earlier tonight if you do a mix of Grass hay, I'll fell for hay and wheat meds. That's basically two bit No, let's see. How is that three bills of grass hay to two bills of alfalfa Something like that and your grain in the pile then you add wheat meds mix it together and feed them You get 2.6 average daily gain if you let them eat as much as they want to eat and the feed costs around 31 cents Lot cheaper than this as you increase the gain you increase the you decrease the cost again Let's look at grass hay wheat meds Well, you know if you feed 12 pounds of wheat meds and no alfalfa hay because alfalfa's got calcium in it You're going to have to provide calcium from another source wheat meds are high in Phosphorus and when you have high in phosphorus you got to add extra calcium So your calcium to phosphorus ratio is one to one or better than that to prevent urinary Calculate have a dead cat because of kidney stones and you'll realize that limestone is is a cheap thing Okay, if you're going to give 12 pounds wheat meds, you got to put in the limestone 2.8 pounds a day gain 30 cents is your cost to gain over here. Okay. Well, let's look at some more rations Those are used some co-products here. We're using corn and co-products So six pounds of hay four pounds of alfalfa two pounds of corn grain a lot of wheat meds 2.6 pounds a day gain you go over here feed costs is 32 cents kind of like that number 30 some cents Alfalfa hay and corn salad if you put up a bunch of corn salad this year and you want to feed it Well alfalfa hay provides the protein corn salad provides the energy two pounds a day gain of that particular mix And you're up to 40 cents Now we could add in some corn we could add in some distillers grains that whole thing and cheapen up the ration I don't have an example of that tonight, but I Can do rations John can do rations page can do rations So if you have any questions you can go ahead and go through some iterations. I use the call program called cow bites It's out of Alberta, Canada. It costs $50. You can order it over the internet works really well It's a ration analyzer program So you put in numbers like loops you put in numbers like that and say does that meet what the animal needs and you can quickly do the math, okay Grass hay four pounds alfalfa four pounds wheat med six pounds corn grain six pounds. That's cheap as a 30 cents three pounds a day gain 6.71 feet conversion Yeah, not a bad ration That's if you have access to cheap wheat meds to go along with it. Okay. Here's some alfalfa hay and corn grain 13 and 7 38 cents is the cost again the alfalfa hay is kind of expensive here We got alfalfa at 7 pounds corn grain 11 and a half pounds you got to put in a protein something so go Let's go ahead and buy a commercial mix. I got both a tecromancin in it 38% crude protein feed a pound and a half per head today in order to get enough protein the ration they gain 3.1 pounds a day it's up to 40 cents though and now if we want to go down here to the Do one with even more corn to pick up the grain gain to 3.4 now we're up to 33 cents so I got another slide coming up later on that'll kind of prove the point See our feed efficiencies really improved when we increased our gain our cost of feed Increased improved as well. Yes You know I Have to divert to this we did a blog at the Carrington Research Extension Center. It's on the internet Today yesterday today Monday days Tuesday Shandingle wrote up the report that said looked at the research they did on you revisit these topics all the time and this one Was revisited they did the project and backgrounding and finishing cattle and the end result was I guess we don't need to process our grain Our corn for our calves Okay, I used to always say if it's more than 80% grain in the diet It can be fed as whole because it because if you grind it and feed that much grain you're gonna have some acidosis in the calves So by leaving it whole you reduce the amount of acidosis and the calves perform well I always figured in our background in calves. We should be more like our dairy industry They pulverize the crap out of there of their corn they make it into flour So every bit of that corn is utilized well, but they're fighting against acidosis We are in the dairy industry. They add enough to that ration There's a third corn salad to third grain a third alfalfa. Hey probably put in some buffers as well and some other Beet pulp you name it everything to make a really good ration. So you never have an upset stomach They want those cows to always milk. So if we'd have that type of ration for calves Let's say we probably need to but usually we're feeding enough grain Where who might even be bunk feeding? I Guess feeding it whole works still bugs a crap on him. You want to see whole kernels in the manure? It always will but you look at the data and it'll support that maybe we don't have to I'll still crack my own. I'm sorry. I can't I got to see some more data Finishing cattle though. That's a whole different story. If you're feeding 80% 75% of the ration is whole grain I mean as whole grain feed it whole no need to process it if you want to tweak it a little more wet corn Probably doesn't need processing compared to really dry corn like 10% moisture corn. It's been dried too hard That'll take a while for that to go ahead and sop up in the room in a credit. Yeah And answer the question You guess you can go home and feed it whole Sometimes there's research. I don't want to believe but you know it was done. Well, what can I say? Oh Yeah, yeah, South Dakota the South Dakota's on on a high 80% grain ration and yeah, they They did see some differences when you put animals in digestion crates and collect all their manure and their urine To see how much they digest. Yeah, they found a difference then you put it out in the feed yard We actually feed them no difference Just Yeah, anyway, here's another one grass hay and distillers grains So you don't have corn but you're looking for feed you need some protein go at the grass say you need some distillers grains not much But that'll give you a pound point seven average daily gain kind of like what a heifer would need or if you're going to be doing Grass calves your cost gains pretty high, but you're trying to limit their gains so later on you can You know work it out Usually in this deal you got a lot of days on feed So, you know, it's a whole feeding period that you're looking at to grass hay for 10 pounds corner for distillers at six 32 and yeah Again, there's a lot of different ways to feed these cattle for different rates of gain Everything kind of works. You just got to remember you got to have energy. You got a protein And you got to have a little bit of rough. He just keep that room and healthy and then move on Low rates of gain work great for grass calves medium rates of gains probably grow calves wealth out putting too much flesh on I'm guilty of putting too much fresh on my calves. It seems like after 80 days, they're okay But I got to feed them for 120 and those last 30 days. That's when they start porking out on me About a half pounds to sell but on the other hand, you know Sometimes those calves aren't you need to dispose to grow that well without losing some performance So know how your calves do and who you're selling to you may get paid for those extra pounds that you put on and greater than three Pounds a day or you may not so that happens Yeah, that's where I like our if you know the history of your cattle that really shows a lot right there I think John might talk about this too. We have a website called calf web. It's a break-even calculator And I use that for some of these rations coming up here. We got four rations We're feeding calves from 575 to 750. We got 1.7 average daily gain and this is a ration 15 pounds of grass a 5 pounds to skills grains average daily gain at 2 pounds So we got 8 pounds of alfalfa 31 pounds of corn salad got another example of 2.8 and then 3.2 and you just see what the rations are They just change a little bit. They're not balanced for trace minerals vitamins on for those can all be added to them I don't care how you want to do that whether it be a liquid supplement or a dry supplement or a Loose mineral in the feeder or a lick tub which whichever works for you, but This would be the overall average between these two dates of how much these calves would be feeding obviously at 570 They're going to get less of everything and at 750 they're going to get more of everything That'd be the average per day now if you look across the top You got the cut first ration at 1.7 second ration to third ration at 2.8 and the next ration at 3.2 Ration cost goes from 75 Well 39 for the salad space stuff because you got a lot of water in it of course Ground hay and wheat meds is going to be 84 and the hay corn to sewage grains is going to be 90 Okay, look at the feed conversions as you increase the gain the conversions get better. Let's look down here at Let's see I went to a different month For these yeah, they came in at 570 went out to 750 but there's more days on feed since they've got 1.7 so anyway our Total cost our feed cost to gain is right across here keeps getting cheaper as you get on more gain You look at the break even okay the numbers change a little bit look at the profit per head Because you got less days on feed and the ration is a little cheaper You could buy price protection for those at 38. I believe that's for March and No January or March and 56 I believe is March and these are January and if you went to November it'd be $8 But yeah on that budget look like things can kind of work for 2016. So where do you get more by pushing more gain into them? Okay, this is what happened over four three years here 13 14 and 16 you can see where Yeah, they average just turn out the same way Push them and there's extra weight now I always have to throw in this one because I updated the slide in 2015 and went okay We brought to give the same example. Okay, we said we were going to go ahead and Make $13 a head profit 45 75 while the market all changed and look what happened actually so, you know a good plan can always go go awry, but Look where they lost less Maybe that's a way to look at it. Anyway, okay Here's another set of rations for you six hundred pound calf This one's implanted using out of four two point six average daily gain 15 pounds of dry matter intake around 18 pounds of feed Here's a ration rolled corn or I suppose that should be whole corn now You should process barley because it's got a husk on it that needs to be broken open and Yeah, cost the game 37 cents. Let's use the corn salvage one that one's a 28 cents Corn salvage and distillers grains. That's 27 you go over here and use the corn the barley because that's so cheap I'll fell for hay mixed and some distillers to brush up the protein and There's so many different ways to feed these calves It's just a matter you decide which one's the cheapest once you have available till it these are my numbers that I put together and You know if you got two and a half dollar corn that change all the numbers because I use 290 and If you got a haul freight to have distillers in all of a sudden your distillers is going to be higher than what I had So you got to do math in each one of these performance can easily be done in all those But I'll just summarize then my my little back Issue here that feed costs this year relatively low cost gains to 25 to 60 cents depending upon the rates of gain as you increase the gain Your feed cost usually goes down All feeds follow the corn price and always remember it's a margin business So you always got to do your math and make a little bit We do have a lot of co-products available. So with that Lots of different feeds if you want to do rations contact page John myself or your local county extension agent or agriculturalist whichever the case is and We can always help you do some rations and what might work for you with that unless you have any questions I'll turn it over to next speaker. Yes, sir. Yes, please Different feet don't well One way companies have a few vendors so it gives them over you if you want to pay for that technology It comes at a good price. Yeah, it works very well, but it comes at a price I've got a good friend of mine who used it over years and said, you know Good exact what I wanted to offer at least what I did But other guys that say, you know, they got fine cheaper way When you talk about that one way is you got to put them up. You got to work them up on feet because I've never seen a cell for you before that first Introduction to cell theater is almost like a death wish unless you got something to keep them from over eating Okay, so you crank down the feet so it doesn't come out. Sorry. You got to work hard at it. Yeah, good luck Might work, you know My deal would be to pump break them feeling the feet bump until they're up on a full feed and then Change the rational to self here. That's my view. Not everybody has a time to do it So you want to add some things to the reaction put in like 1% sodium bicarbonate and use the acidosis that in case they do over-consume But it'll both a type of ransom remensin to try to decrease their brain and intakes. They don't eat quite as much Bring in some straw so there's a little extra buffer so that they can't just sit down and pig out Never let your wreck your creek theater go empty Because that's That's what I always say, you know, I think it was empty. Can I just fill up with this? Like seriously Haven't you had enough dead cabs learn less than you can't ever do that let usually what yeah, so Some things maybe I'm gonna got mad in his fingers. No the water freezes so they quit eating for a day Oh, yeah, I heard you get the water going again. What happens to the cat? They go big out. Yeah Really big storm. They don't go out a little old barn shelter Well, it's the sides after they have they're really hungry now. They overeat. There's some management that has to be pretty strict attention to No way to fill them up before after on his bed with some hay or fresh bedding or something And we've got projects of you self-eaters over the past years and And it'll show it's an easy way to feed cattle, but I'll just put it this way. Just figure in a higher death box All right, are there any other questions for Carl? That's right So the yellow sheet has most of the byproduct needs in an hour or two of this area So certainly take with it though the money talk a little bit about Next on the agenda is gonna be John do better. He's right here in my not have here how is here at the RAC so Thanks page Well Carl did a pretty good extensive job talking about feed and got into the budgeting But I'm gonna expand on it in just a little bit and share a few more thoughts on maybe what how I see the economics playing out this year Every year is a little different scenario of the fundamentals feed costs market trend cattle prices We have people who feed through them no matter what every year they just background That's their marketing plan. We have people who try to never ever own their calves past the cow They have commitments lack of facilities like a feed base And then we have others that try to look at the situation and figure the best alternative for for the given year in this year