 it's really interesting and you know again it can change week to week with somebody dependent on what's actually going on for them they can come in and be you know quite adaptive one week and then quite free spirited the next week and then you know feeling completely different the week after. Yeah and if somebody is top-heavy in parent-eager state in other words what that means is they spend a lot of energy yeah coming from an internalised parent position means their child goes underground and they will appear pretty judgmental. Yeah these things in black and white terms and there is a heavy heavy emphasis on what you talked about earlier, control rather than spontaneity. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 77 of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with the wonderful Mr Bob Cook and myself Jackie Jones and in this episode we're going to be talking about using humour, joy and spontaneity in the therapy room. Sounds a wonderful topic I better be have a level of spontaneity then. Yes and joy and humour let's go for it. Yeah they're all coming once I've just come back off holiday about a week on holiday in Gran Canaria so I have a sense of I think joy as we speak even though coming back I didn't want to come back so which is really good when you're on holiday isn't it yeah you actually don't want to come back yeah yes that was good but I've come back the weather's not too bad but the sky compared to the sky yeah was before when I was in the Canary Islands it's very different yeah different type of blue but anyway now I'm rambling on yes joy, humour and spontaneity now one thing about being a therapist I really understand is that it's really important to model down to your clients the three topics we're talking about here I believe spontaneity, humour you know are really important to things to model down you know so I think spontaneity and joy and humour are part of what we need to pass down to our clients otherwise what can often happen as clients really go into these dark places quite often there's no light in the tunnel. Those things you don't necessarily expect to have in a therapy room. Oh oh right do you mean now that's an interesting sentence do you mean from your perspective or do you mean this is how the public see therapy I mean yeah I think it's how it's perceived but I also think that the client doesn't always expect those things from therapy what do you think that's a really interesting what do you think from your perspective again what do you think a client does expect then? Every session has to be deep and meaningful and do you know what I mean they don't always associate that with joy and humour it needs to be I don't know doom and gloom somehow. No you're very clear on that what you mean but you that you're saying the therapy sessions you think clients think should be intense yeah heavy yeah a sense of darkness and maybe gloom doom goes with that and they don't see therapy sessions as particularly a time where they can express any spontaneity, humour or joy. Yeah it's not the place and I think that's you know the general public as well think that. I think there's an element that's true and I like to think the clients have I think with you probably as well because I know you have great sense of humour but I was thinking the clients that have seen me over the years I hope also see times when they come to see me has some light in the process because you can only stick your head down the toilet bowl for so long. Yeah yeah 100% and I think it's important for me that the client understands my sense of humour that it's not misinterpreted in the therapy room. For what? I don't know for making light of a situation that might not necessarily be if that makes sense yeah. Yeah that might complete sense that's why I asked the question for what because I think you're correct I think sometimes clients may they don't know you very well anyway perhaps perceive maybe your humour is making light of something they shouldn't be made light of however as they get to know you they'll know your humour better understand that's not the case yeah and so the same with me and also another thing about this is that I think people can only stay suffering for so long yeah they need some light yeah that has to be modelled down otherwise they go away often in a state of sort of mini depression if you like may not allow themselves to experience the sun for at least another week perhaps yeah and you know obviously dependent on the trauma that the clients gone through you know one of the things I often say is that that doesn't define who they are you know we can go through some horrendous things but still enjoy life and still find joy. Oh perhaps you could have said more important words yeah and you know for me personally more recently you know doing things that bring me joy is really important to me you know and it should be with a client as well yeah we can go to those dark places but exactly like you said we don't need to stay there you know it is important that we do things you know self-care and all those things that we want to do outside in the therapy room. Absolutely correct and I think people who come say with depression and there's different levels of depression from moderate mild and severe so I know could be seen as a blanket term but I think to for the therapist to model down a sense of lightness if you like is important for people to understand that there's times when they could allow themselves to see some light in the tunnel yeah yeah because it makes it more bearable yeah. Now that doesn't mean a therapist that spends you know 59 minutes of the hour being cracking jokes I don't mean those sorts of things yeah or I mean things where where there's some sense of humor sometimes delivered yeah there's some sense of lightness in the darkness I think it's important yeah me too 100% yeah and it's about looking at things from a different perspective sometimes as well. Say a little bit more because I think that's important. They're not re-experiencing the trauma over and over do you know what I mean that we give them the opportunity to look at things you know yes and this might sound like it but even if we go through some horrific things what have we learned from it what can we take from it what are the positives from it that often a client can't see that there are any positives from their experiences. Quite often and I don't want the listeners to not you know confuse what both of us are saying I think both of us are saying the same thing which is therapy is a serious business yes and we need to treat the trauma the discomfort or whatever the client comes with great dignity and seriousness it's another saying that I think we're saying that in this we could also allow ourselves some time to have some relaxation if you like to take care of ourselves not in a place where we just have to incapacitate and see darkness all the time. Yeah yeah and you know sometimes I use humour or you know it may be a different conversation to grant the client do you know what I mean what once the session is coming to an end to have a different type of conversation before the client leaves the room particularly if it's been a heavy one. That's right and on another level completely quite often the client comes in there is you know like a solemn little boy if you like where they may have lost touch of all joy in their life you often find as you as you explore their history they've been programmed yeah to be joyless to be solemn little boy and you'll find out actually the parents are exactly the same yeah so it's often to do their histories doesn't have to be a trauma laden process we're talking about but they may have been programmed or been in a house or a family where not much joy was expressed yeah yeah and everything serious yeah and they then go up thinking well that's how life is so actually when people express joy or laughter around them they don't know what to do yeah or they feel uncomfortable yeah yeah which again is something that can be worked through in therapy and you know it's it's like sometimes I feel clients it's a new situation they have to be either depressed or happy they can't be both at the same time if that makes sense you know and I wear emotions and I were feeling shift literally from moment to moment it's not like you know for the whole 50 minutes you need to be just showing one emotion otherwise I'm not going to take you seriously we can dip in and out of things and in fact that's normal if it's such a thing as normality I mean you know I don't I'm living long enough now I'm not sure what normality is but I'll use that phrase with a pinch of salt if you like but I think it's normal to dip out and dip in if you like yeah to different egos days and different emotional expressions yeah and again you know the the the humour and the joy can be used sometimes as a way of deflecting things with the client you know the gallows laugh and all those sort of things you know if a client's using it excessively it can be a way of deflecting from what's actually going on for them yes absolutely and I was thinking about something I shared with you I think on one of the podcasts about groups because I was a group that was for a very long time yeah and I used to share I did share this with you yeah I used to start every group with two or three minutes of good news and it was so there's eight people in the group which is invariably there was I would say okay just go around and with your check-in I'd like you to check in some good news now you can define what good is but but I like to start this way and I started it because that way because I wanted to give people permission to at least think about the potential of some good in inverted commas event that has happened to them yeah yeah these were starting off a different frame yeah and it's an opportunity for them to show their wins and successes as well within a group which is a really nice place to be able to do it and get support from from other people yeah so I'm more worried about people who come in the therapy room and haven't got the ability to have spontaneity humor and joy then probably most clients because if a person has lost those capacities we know something they've had a traumatic history yeah we know it yeah so stay a little bit more about spontaneity in the therapy room how are you thinking about that the client is spontaneous or that were spontaneous in the therapy room okay so in normal conversation you've probably never done this Jackie and I don't do this much you know I only do I only think about I'm gonna say now clinically yeah but I'm using the word normal again very lightly understand but in general conversation if you if you say to somebody have you had a good day and they'll reply back all their response might be yes or no and things were particularly hard today because of this and you might say something back again now if you clinically talk about all we could do in general life if you wanted to but time how quickly it takes for the response to come back so if I said to you you know have you had a good day and you said yes I've had a good day it was really wonderful if you time between the difference between stimulus and response it might be what a couple of seconds yeah yeah if that if that right the more depressed the person is the more they've lost the capacity of spontaneity during humor the response will take much longer to come back right yeah so for example I remember it's so well and it's quite well with me for seven or eight years by the way but when I first saw him I would say the response I think I remember counting in my head took at least eight or nine seconds to come back that is a long time by the way yeah two three four five six seven eight now that's a long time I almost gave up the will to live at one level but clinically yeah extremely sad yeah because what actually was happening for the person on the other side by the way to take eight seconds was there their level of spontaneity had decreased unfortunately what had increased was their level of mistrust their level of adaptation their level of depression their level of paranoia and often what it happened is I say how are you so they go to the different committees in their heads to think oh well you know is this person asked me a question or what's why is he saying that or what shall I answer here so that I don't xxxx yeah there's a series of committees before the answer comes back yeah if it takes eight seconds that's a long time it is it is to be answering a question like how's your weight being yeah yeah now when the person has left that left over with me it was down to about three seconds well done eight improvement yeah their level of spontaneity of course is much higher yeah so without spontaneity a person mental health probably has decreased in terms of what we're talking about here yeah their paranoia has probably gone up their level of adaptation to you has probably gone up therefore their natural self has gone down their level of incapacitation is much higher the level of mistrust for you is usually much higher yeah these are all the indications of problems in mental health so if the capacity of spontaneity is decreased to the extent we're talking about it will even less it's a pretty good indication for poor mental health yeah because again I see a lack of spontaneity around needing to be in control of the environment you're not only what they're actually saying but also their environment like you said there's a lot of internal dialogue going on it's a really good point you just met that if they are they need to be in control heavily in control but spontaneity has certainly decreased because usually in TA terms there's a heavy controlling parent yeah for the spontaneity and the child has decreased is a sign of poor mental health usually yeah because their child capacities for freedom for laughter for humor for spontaneity has all gone out the window yeah I was taking this place usually is adaptation to the controlling parent that those have started to express this need control yeah because a lot of the time we do associate these these things with the child ego state or the carefree you know yourself kind of ourselves yeah yeah absolutely and into again I know I was speaking TA terms again but if you look at the lack of spontaneity during and humor it usually means there's a repressed child repressed younger self that can't get out yeah usually but it's because of this heavy parent there on themselves yeah it's really interesting and you know again it can change week to week with somebody dependent on what's actually going on for them they can come in and be you know quite adaptive one week and then quite free spirited the next week and then you know feeling completely different the week after yeah and if somebody is top-heavy in parent ego state in other words what that means is they spend a lot of energy yeah coming from an internalised parent position means their child goes underground and they will appear pretty judgmental yeah these things in black and white terms and there is a heavy heavy emphasis on what you talked about earlier control rather than spontaneity yeah because it makes their environment a lot safer if they feel like they're in control of it yeah which goes on to what you were saying about lack of trust yeah absolutely and you'll see it in couples therapy a lot what I'm talking about here you'll you know where one partner expresses a lot of energy from their parenting estate yeah and therefore the other partner then is coming from usually a very adapted repressed child position yeah the therapy is usually about helping people unstick their particular parts of themselves so they got freedom to go up and down different ego states yeah yeah which is enlightening if somebody doesn't know about the ego states and how we move through them all you know it is something I can remember when I was training in it that was really enlightening yeah I mean you're right a sign of health if you like is when you can move with a sense of freedom between and flexibility between different parts of the selves now in TA that's called parent-adult so you know it's a tripart model child the problems come again in TA terms but we could I could think about the cycle there was when we get stuck in one part of the self and don't have access to the different energy sources in other parts of the self yeah so there's no spot no so if there's little spontaneity or flexibility it means that usually require rigid and stuck yeah in one part of ourselves yeah so good mental health is when we can go you know with the flexibility and spontaneity from the different parts of our own self yeah and in the therapy room you know for me I always give the client permission to be whatever it is that they want to be in that room you know I can remember when I was doing my training you know I think somebody asked me how often are you in your child and I said hardly ever because I'd like to think that I'm in my adult the majority of the time but the more you look at it the more I realized actually I flip quite often you know I'm not in my adult I probably say 60 percent of the time I'm somewhere else yeah stuck in our younger self yeah or stuck in our internalized parent in T8 language again yeah and again like you were saying model in that down I think is really important that we can be light hearted and spontaneous and and do all those things it doesn't mean that we're being childish it's part of the free parts of ourselves yeah and it can be serious at the same time yeah we can do both these things yeah that's the really important part that we could we can take people seriously because take serious seriously the problems and also model some sense of spontaneity in the process yeah yeah because like you said that they might not have been brought up in a family where that was you know they were given permission to do that or you know they were allowed to yeah getting just where they're in a free child in T8 terms again now one thing we do have to be careful with when we mentioned earlier in this podcast I don't want to come back to his humor and you've touched on it where in the sense of the perception of the client in other words it's really important the child doesn't think we're laughing you know the child in client or the younger self in the client doesn't think we're laughing at them yeah or shaming them yeah yeah so humor is important in terms of modeling in terms of creating a lighter space the things we talk about the podcast and at the same time we need to check that the person on the other side doesn't think we're you know laughing at them or shaming them so we I think we have to think about this clinically yes yeah I think it's a really important one if because we'd not thinking like that I think some of the therapy ruptures might happen yeah if it's used inappropriately in the therapy room yeah I think with humor and to start off with I probably use humor with and for myself first off you know if I make a mistake or if I get something wrong being able to you know what I mean throw it off or make fun of myself in the therapy room you know is it a starting point for them to get to know me you know life doesn't always need to be serious that's why there's a sense of being able to not you know take ourselves with a pinch of salt as well yeah model that as well it's important to think about because I think that's one of the criticisms around or can be around being too bringing humor in too much if we don't think about how the other person's receiving it yeah yeah and again it's about being mindful of that and being you know aware of the responses to it in the therapy room and then maybe bringing that up yeah that's the part that is the part you know how do you feel when it would this way the therapy are you feeling that we're taking you seriously or whatever it is we check it up but I do believe modeling spontaneity is really important yeah and again like you say so that the listeners don't misunderstand it it's you know that there is there is always a long-term goal and aiming therapy therapy being spontaneous doesn't mean that we're just throwing caution to the wind and doing whatever comes up our back in every session yeah so it's a lot in it but I do think it's important these capacities because they're a monitor for positive mental health yeah yeah because we as always we are complex beings yeah absolutely I agree with you yeah I've enjoyed that Bob okay great I enjoyed talking about it and I I do think these the capacities we just talk about there are barometers for positive mental health so I think it's an important thing we think about yeah so if anybody has any questions on that they can comment on our YouTube channel where these go up if they they want to ask you any more questions about being humorous having joy and being spontaneous in the therapy room but next time we're going to be talking a little bit about understanding the importance of working with unmet renail relational needs in therapy that's a long title Bob it's a long time simply it's about how we work with the unmet parts of ourselves in terms of needs yeah so until next time Bob yeah see you soon bye bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode