 Further ado, thanks for joining us for another amazing episode of the nonprofit show today we are bringing you fundraising Academy, which is cause selling education, and it looks quite different I hope you're all acknowledging and loving just as I am this purple. That is a new color for us, although it's not new on our backdrop so thank you for being a wonderful. Thanks for joining sponsors. We are so grateful and we really like to start every episode by extending our sincerest gratitude and appreciation to all of our sponsors and I like to say these organizations these sponsors they're not only here for the nonprofit show they're here for you. They're here in your community they're here to support you lift you up lean in and to elevate your mission and your cause so go find them, give them some like some love, follow them and just you know, say thank you just as we want to say thank you to them. And I want to say thank you just because every morning Julia Patrick shows up she's the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. Because of you Julia. We have this amazing episode and series of episodes so Julia is the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. This is wonderful that you had this crazy idea. I'm to start this show and we're about 250 episodes strong. I'm honored to serve alongside as your co host and Jared ransom CEO of the Raven group, also known as the nonprofit nerd. And today drum roll please. Thank you. We have Tony Beall and Tony is the Senior Director Office of Program Administration with the National University. Welcome Tony. Thank you so much. You did that so beautifully I get tongue tied every time I try to say my title or you know and who I who I'm serving in this space so kudos to you early in the morning for not not being tongue tied at all. It was such an honor. I mean you, you both just add so much value to the nonprofit sector and the work that you're doing. And I talked to folks a lot about, you know, partnerships and team members, and those partners and team members that you have to work with, and those partner and team members that you want to work with, and the two of you are clearly in that space of individuals that I just really want to work with, and enjoy every single encounter with with the two of you. No pressure. You know, we feel the same way about you because, as we were saying, you know in the Judy chat chat and we, we say this a lot fundraising is one of those big pain points that everyone in the nonprofit sector has and I think one of those things that you have a passion for the mission and the finding solutions, and then you get so stymied by the fundraising, and it becomes a really tough thing to wrap your head around. And so what's really exciting about where we're going with fundraising is we're really launching this special series really dedicated to the concept of cause selling and Tony you and your team have come up with this brilliant process. It's natural. It flows. It's a three phase process with very specific action items that will help you learn how to do cause selling. We're going to be doing this live now through June, twice a month. The episodes are going to be a little bit longer they're going to be about 45 minutes. And they're going to be housed together so if you miss something at let's say phase one, you know, second section or whatever, you can jump back in because the archive will be complete. I think what you'll find as I have found learning about your system. It's very natural and it's very logical. And so we really want to highlight this process because we believe across this country, really across this world with all of our viewers, that this is that point with which you can move forward and achieve mission success, or you cannot. Absolutely enjoy I'm glad that you brought that up. Because one of the things that I'm really I'm a proud about many, many things related to our curriculum, but one of those really is how these steps in terms of professional development are really relevant as stand alone so to your point is, you do have to experience professional development and steps one through four. And, you know, you don't have to have experienced those and you will still get some value out of step five, because they all are just so powerful as stand alone. So I'm really glad that you mentioned that. Yeah, and you know sometimes we forget where we're falling down, or we, we put more effort and energy into the things where we feel successful for with and so then we, you know, let's other things slide. So I think you're going to be here with us. We're going to be in the series to really help refine those points with that what we need to do. So this might be a good series to attend with a team your team, get your team together on one of the rebroadcast and our archive. I'm certainly joining us live. I think it's just going to be something that you can jump in. Maybe you've had a situation that didn't go so well with a donor and maybe it's a great way to do a debrief to figure out what you could have done and what steps could have been so without further ado. Okay. Whoo, we are at phase one step one diving in to process diving right in with with prospecting. So, so we're very intentional about the terminology of cause selling I just kind of wanted to share that with our audience today, and really challenging fundraisers to rethink about the work that you do, and to really embrace the fact that you are selling what you're selling is probably one of the most important items in the marketplace that you can sell right and that is a solution and idea that meets a community need. We lean in very heavily to the terminology of cause selling, and in fact our curriculum, and these eight steps really were created, looking at the best of the best, in terms of what's working in the for profit sector around sales and sales strategies. We're just taking again that best of the best of what's happening in the for profit sector, and, and just slightly modifying it it's really just, you know, changing some terminology, so that it works really well in the nonprofit sector. And, and this strategy is very specific. I'm not surprised that you got, you know, tremendous feedback in your survey around fundraising right fundraising training, because there's so many different strategies and different lanes that you can go through as you're looking to raise funds for your organization. Our lane at the fundraising Academy, very specific. It's about relationship driven fundraising. It's that one on one interaction with your donor, and that starts with phase one and step one of prospecting and taking time to develop your, your list of potential donors right you have to start somewhere. And so you just start creating a list. Right, give yourself the freedom don't really think about it too much initially, just start creating a list. And there are many, many different ways that you can go about that but really, you know the prospecting it really is the process of looking for and searching for your prospective donors. And understanding what makes a qualified prospect. I'm interested in that because I think sometimes we just look around and we think okay who's the wealthiest, you know, family in our community, who's the biggest corporation, you know, XYZ nonprofit will they got a bunch of money from them we need to get that I mean, I'm thinking all the time, hear that all the time. Yeah. All the time. And, and, you know, so when when I was actively boots on the ground fundraising, you know, it's not uncommon. Yeah. So, you know, to go to another nonprofits website that might have a similar mission and see who's supporting them. I mean, people give to more than one cause, when there's a cause that they're passionate about right and very rarely does one organization tackle all of the needs of a specific community right. So if you go to the, if your nonprofit is serving you. Right and you go to the website of another nonprofit that's serving youth chances are you're not serving them in the same way, but because those donors are passionate about serving youth. They're more likely to want to hear your story and engage with you at least, you know, initially to understand how they might expand their passion to to your mission as well. I call that data mining and that nonprofit nerd that when I go to any institution and there's a donor wall, you better believe I'm reading to see whose name is up there. Some other of those tools. Yeah, take a picture of it. And then you zoom in right. Yeah, I'm not the only one that data mines you know on my off time weekends, you know whatever. But you had mentioned their website Tony, I think that's a great point. You know their social media channels when they give a shout out their annual reports even their 990s might mention some of this information. All of this is public data, all of this is public data so it's really not that hard to find. It's just knowing where to find it. Right, absolutely and I'm so glad that you gave those examples because a lot of times we think about the term data mining. We think about our own data, like you know our own data, you know looking at our donor data where our laps donors, you know how do we re engage them but there is that external data mining that takes place and a lot of folks I think you know when they hear data mining they think of just their own kind of, you know, in their own mind. We have, but when you bring in some of these external, what I like to do Tony is then present that to the board and the leadership to say on this list who do you know, right. Absolutely. How do we now get a conversation with them because we saw them, you know, listed in this piece or with this organization. Typically they love the mission of youth or they love the mission of X, Y and Z. Right. We think they too might be interested in what we do so that could be a qualified prospect. Absolutely, absolutely. So, so typically you know within our curriculum we talk about a qualified prospect is someone that has the means to give the ability to give an interest in giving and a passion, you know for your organization. So, you may not, you know, again we're prospecting we're creating a list of individuals that we're then going to spend even more time, kind of researching and getting to know, you know, getting to know them before we even really get to know that right before we go to the, to the next step So once we created that list, however we've accumulated that you know brainstorming with with board members data mining internally externally. There's a great process that that we use called the Madden test. So once we have this great list of prospects. How do we now categorize them into, you know, tier a tier B tier C right because I don't know about you guys I don't have the bandwidth to invest in all hundred or 1000 people that are on my prospect list right so I have to have a mechanism to help me prioritize where I'm going to invest my energy. Right and where I feel like we're going to get the, you know, the boulder in the pond versus the pebble in the pond for our nonprofit. One of the ways that we suggest doing that is this very easy Madden test, where you take a look at your, your prospect and and think, do they have the financial means to give. Are they approachable. Do they have a desire. Are they the decision maker. Will they be emotional around what we are doing, and what need of theirs, can you fulfill in this partnership. So it's a really simple test that really proves to be worth the time investing and I think that that's part of the challenge to for a lot of development professionals is the pressure from the board. The pressure from the community need that prevents us sometimes from stepping back and really doing the analysis that we should, we should be doing on potential donors. So that our outcome at the end when we finally make the ask is so much better, because we're asking so much so many more of the right people. This makes all the sense in the world and I'm going to go out on a limb and tell you what I think when I see this qualifying prospects can be maddening. You make this test this Madden test, not so maddening right so then you're like, this makes perfect sense to say okay, yes this is frustrating I know you want me to work all these qualified prospects, but let's take it through the test and then are they still qualified prospect, which of these do they fit and where don't they so that we know how we might be able to engage them further. Absolutely because if you go through that process and you have some donors that where you've checked the box on all of these. Well clearly those are the ones that you want to put your efforts towards first right and then just on down and the ones that that reach for three or two so I'm sure you were talking about absolutely again super simple huge results. Brilliant and you know I think the thing of it is is that these are aspects of what build sustainability and build relationships and you started this off by saying this is a relationship oriented approach to fundraising. I get all this because these are the things that if you have these at different aspects, you're binding yourself with a donor who's going to follow you along the journey. Absolutely. Amazing. I love this. Okay, so now we need to talk about that we're still in phase one. Yes, and we're moving to step to the pre approach just because you've got great information. You've done the Madden test doesn't mean you're just going to be like okay, where's the check right I mean the reality is you're still in phase one you're still in. If you will a discovery. Yeah, absolutely and and and again because this is all about building relationships. Rarely, very, very rarely. Are you going to ask for a gift in your first meeting with the potential donor right and so the pre approach is the work that you're doing before you even have that first face to face encounter with the donor so it's, you know, it's the planning and the preparation that's being done before you even contact the individual that's on your your prospecting list. So this is this is a great slide you know you you want to research, they're giving history. You want to do research on their passions on their interests on their connections and Jared that's where you were so brilliant right you create this prospecting list, you share this with your board members you share it with other team members, who say, Oh, I know that person we're connected on LinkedIn. Let me take a look on their LinkedIn, you know profile and see if I can help, you know, get you any additional information. So there's just so many ways that we can learn more about the potential donor before we ever even meet them face to face, and things like engaging your board members other team members, other staff, I mean that just underscores the fact to that fundraising is a team sport. Yes, and I want to make a note that the giving history is not always as we said your internal data. This could be giving history of where someone has given to another organization or institution, and you might see that gift in progress. So that gives you a lot of insight into their capacity. Very much so. I think that's brilliant. And I think to, you know, it's, I love that you reflect on the aspect of relationship, and how armed with this information, you're going to become more successful in building a champion of your organization, versus just somebody who's like, here's a, here's a token amount, get off my back. Part of part of what cause selling does is that it again allows you and encourages you to spend the bulk of your time up front, really working towards identifying and cultivating relationships with the folks that are going to be around for a long time right. It's not transactional fundraising, where you're hoping for one gift, you know, one and done. This is relationship driven fundraising. So if we look at kind of the, if we compare the two, when we look at the traditional way of fundraising maybe the way you know again the way that I did it before, you know, I learned better. You know, very little time getting to know an individual and all of my time just running around asking people for money. Here you spend all of your time up front, less time asking folks for a gift because you're asking more of the right people. Wow. Now one of those things that you talked about is, you know, doing the heavy lifting figuring out what it is, what information we need to have, and you give us some really interesting ideas about how we go about that and with several of these online resources. And I'm wondering if you could spend some time kind of sharing with us how you would use these and what you think the value is. Sure. So, so first I would encourage folks to get over any feeling any ickiness right because some, some, you know, fundraisers especially new in the space are like, Oh, that's so icky that I went to the property appraisers website and and looked wrong to see what the value of their home might be but but this is all of the due diligence you know that that you're doing again to make sure that the time that you're investing in developing relationships gives you the type of return that you're looking for again that you're investing the time in the right folks so the Google searches is pretty is pretty simple right I mean I I'll confess. I will Google folks all the time if if somebody sets up a meeting and I haven't had a chance to meet them. I Google them because I want to learn about them prior to the meeting. You know if they're a subject matter expert in a certain area that I'm not aware of or they've won awards and I'm not aware of. I want to be able to bring that up in the conversation and congratulate them on their successes and all other great work but Google's Google's kind of a, you know, an obvious one. The FEC is it's interesting you know around political contributions that can tell you a lot about an individual. So, you know so going there to see you know what candidates they may or may not have been supporting financially can tell you a lot about an individual. Candid.org Candid is a great, great resource. It will it will help you identify folks that may be serving on boards. So you can learn a lot from Candid. LinkedIn Facebook I mean I've I mentioned LinkedIn already my recommendation with LinkedIn though is that you, you consider investing in the premiere status of LinkedIn right because that that allows you more functionality, and it also allows you to kind of anonymously go in and look at folks. LinkedIn profiles if you don't have that that higher level of membership there then, like if you look at my LinkedIn profile I'll get a notification that you looked at my profile right. So, so thinking about things like that Facebook Twitter and then and then Zillow which is very similar to what I said about using the property appraisers website. You can go on to Zillow just to get some understanding of, and it doesn't tell you the whole story I don't want to mislead anyone right folks have multiple layers. You know these are just going to give you some insight to an individual. They are certainly not going to tell you that individuals entire story. Now some, some organizations might have the ability and you know the privilege if I dare say that to have wealth screening type donor database. So I think that's great when you do have that you know additional wealth screening, but all of these are free that you've listed here, they are, you know, easily accessible online, and anyone can look this up. So I think this is worth that mention that it doesn't have to be, you know, a sincere investment monetary wise right it takes a little bit of time to do your due diligence and to really get to know. Who are we talking to right where are they involved. What awards as you said like it really helps to build depth into a conversation so that you can really build on to that relationship. Absolutely. Tony, what's your experience. I mean, I love that you used the word the ickiness and what's your experience about communicating to the powers be that be that this is a good investment, whether you're using, you know, subscription wealth discovery tools that you pay for or that your spending this time. What are some of the things that you can suggest that we communicate to the board or even just to the C suite of why we need to be doing this. Yeah, so I think I think first we need to make sure that our C suite and our board members all understand why many of our fundraisers titles are director of development. Right, because we have to develop these relationships, and that takes time. Now I get that a lot of a lot of organizations are constantly in financial crisis mode. I totally understand that. So if you step back, and you invest your time, like we're saying in this kind of research. Again, your outcomes are going to be much greater than if you're just having the pavement and that's the other thing. A lot of CEOs and executive directors will say, if my fundraiser sitting at their desk, they're not doing their job. Right. So, but they are right. They are if in fact, the time at their desk is invested in this type of prospecting and research. And then they go in and you know using totally old school terminology then they go pound the pavement so to speak, because they are armed with this robust list of potential donors that have met these qualifications. So I think it's a it's a lot around changing the culture of some of the nonprofit organizations, so that you know the C suite and the board members really lean into these strategies and lean into the fact that if a fundraiser spending time at their desk, it's valuable time at their desk and documenting the data. Yes, exactly. It's a whole nother a whole nother show right the documentation of the data right, but but but so critical the documentation of the data so critical we know what the turnover rate is in the sector for fundraisers, and you don't want your, your fundraisers are walking away with all of that, you know intellectual property about your donors. We have heard time after time after time that, like you, you whoever as the development person may not get the big gift but 10 years down the road, all of the work that you've done and the previous people in this position through that relationship building is all for the mission, it's for the cause, it's not for you as the person, it's for the institution. And so this bears fruitful and proven time over time with some really large gifts, it could be playing giving it could be during a capital campaign. And yes, I could just sit on my high horse and preach on the set box about this data documentation because it is so important to leave that institutional knowledge with the institution. Absolutely. So true. Well, and you know that's something that we probably need to spend some time on and we'll get back to that. But yeah, I appreciate that you brought that up I think it's AFP who gives the Association of Fundraising Professionals gives the statistics that the statistic that most nonprofit development directors last no more than 18 months at their job. It's brutal for everyone from them for the organization. And I've got to believe that if they have a stronger process that cause that your cause selling series has that, you know, there wouldn't be as much frustration and, and even if you didn't get the check in you can still demonstrate that you're you're navigating towards a relationship that's going to be much stronger than a single check in the mail. Right. Absolutely. You know, so interesting. Now, we've kind of done the prospecting and again, as we go through the series, there's a lot of information there's a lot of depth. We're able to come back to us on the fundraising Academy website has even more information, more in depth processes and we're kind of trying to give you the highlights to give you the bigger picture of how this works. Ultimately now, we're going to be moving into the process of the face to face meeting and face to face has changed right we're face to face on zoom. We're not face to face socially distanced, we're not face to face and all the gallows and the events space that we had very interesting so talk to us about that. You know so setting up a face to face meeting and you you queued up perfectly Julia because as we lean more into technology is you know we're we're face timing or zooming. And in some communities folks are or meeting face to face at their favorite coffee shop right. I mean, face to face is, is, is never going to go away, the mode in which we do it may vary right, but it's never going to go away. So if you think about setting up a face to face meeting, it's think you know think about the timing right of the face to face meeting. You know again think about choosing your your location wisely, lean into the technology. You don't have to drive an hour anymore to meet with a donor potential donor for coffee or tea right so lean into the to the technology. The most important element of setting up the face to face meeting and my experience has been become a friend of the gatekeeper. So whatever that might look like be friend, the gatekeeper, it will serve you so well throughout the relationship with the potential donor right so do that and always be clear and genuine about who you are and what your intentions are right. And that's that's the real beauty I think about working in the nonprofit sector is the ability to be transparent at all times and be who you are and lean into passions. When you are anything other than you folks sense that right. So, you know, so always being clear about, you know, about who you are, what you want to meet with them about. You know, it is all all really valuable as you look to set up that that face to face meeting. And sorry, Tony, I said in my career sitting in the seat as a development director. You know, I'm not going to ask you for a gift. I want to meet with you, you know, or I will say I would love to talk to you about ways to invest that I think you might be interested in so I'm very transparent and I have always kind of that way because I want to be, you know, I want someone to be just as transparent to me, don't do the bait and switch and so I love that you say like, just be who you are be authentic be passionate and let that carry through. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, it seems to me, Tony, over the really the last 10 years, the role of the gatekeeper has changed, because it's no longer that literally that person sitting outside the office door, and that you have to get past and I'm wondering if you're starting to see this it seems like, you know, more people on the on the executive level and even older donors, they're answering your own email, they're looking at their own things they're setting their own calendars. They might share it with, you know, admin, but they're more. There seems to be a change and I'm just wondering if you could talk about that. Yeah, no, I mean, I've noticed that too. So, so yeah, so again, these, you know, these are strategies that, you know, some folks like you're saying we'll have a gatekeeper, some, you know, some won't. The gatekeeper, you know, for some individuals might be that you know they block your, your phone number. So now you got to figure out how to get around that gate right and and determine other avenues or, you know, so they're, you know, so the gatekeeper and some instances, instances may not be an individual. It may be a technology and you have to figure out how to how to get around that particular gate. I love that you said that I never, I've never heard anyone articulate that that it might not be an individual but it could be a technology. Yeah, and I was going to say there's no pay phones to call from anymore right like everything has a number associated with it but that's really where some of the other systems that you mentioned Tony like LinkedIn like another connection could be the best entry point into that relationship. You know, absolutely. And I, Jared, you said something else too that I wanted to, to kind of expand on, you know, when you're, when you're meeting with, with the potential donors, you know, hopefully again you have learned a little something, you know, about them before you set up a meeting. So a lot of times you, you know, you could, you could say, you know, I saw in the society section of the local newspaper that you support the humane society, you know, or again I should probably say XYZ you support XYZ organization. We have a very similar mission. I'd love to meet with you and get your opinion on some new programs that were starting in our organization, knowing that you're passionate about the space. Absolutely. Folks, folks love to give their opinion. And they, and they love to share their experiences. They love to tell their story. So giving them those opportunities right out of the gate immediately starts to build that relationship and immediately starts to starts allowing the potential donor to feel like they're adding value before they've ever really done anything. I love that example. I love that. I think that's a really good idea. You know, we don't have a lot of time left, but I wanted to kind of get your assessment on this process. And again, everybody, this is going to be a journey that we take together. It's going to be really exciting. So to have a little bit of patience and know that we're not going to get to everything in, you know, 30 to 45 minutes. So this is really a retrain of the brain and mindset, which I think we could all agree we're due for. But, you know, one of those things I'd love for you to kind of maybe frame this up as we end our first series of cause selling with fundraising Academy is, what does this look like in terms of time you mentioned as we were chatting that this is really something that you want to invest in up front and spend a little bit more time. But what do you think is a good idea for how to plan this out. Yeah, that's a that's a really great question. And so, you know, we, of course, we we we stay in touch with a lot of the folks that that, you know, have earned their cause selling certificate through our programs to kind of see how the process is working for them. And, and I think like anything else, there isn't a one size fits all answer for that. I mean, I would love to tell you, oh, it takes six to eight, you know, months to get to cycle, you know, to step six or whatever. But it really it really varies on the individual. And that's what we're stressing around cause selling is the individual, right, and not saying, Oh, in six months with this person, I should be here, because every individual is different. And that's that's really the core of what we're we're trying to deliver in our curriculum, individuals relationships, getting to know that person. So it's a it's a really great question. I don't have a standard answer, only because it really does vary. You could have, again, you know, you're spending the bulk of your time doing the research. So maybe, you know, maybe you're spending two months on research, you know, on the prospecting the pre approach before you actually make that initial contact to set up the first meeting. Maybe that's 60 to 90 days. But then after that first meeting, depending on their level of engagement and their passion, you might fast track through those other steps. Right. Interesting. Okay, I love that you you framed it that way, because that makes a lot of sense and especially, you know, as we are looking at the changing nature of how we engage with potential donors, people that might have known about us left come back, I mean, for a myriad of reasons people that don't know anything about us. It's just such a moving target and I think another thing too that as we go through the series. I think there's such an interesting discussion about multi generational giving, you know that that piece that's like the grandparents gave the parents gave and now they're millennial children. But that has to figure into this as well because we have layers of families and relationships that we've had that change or morph, and we can't discount that. No, not at all. And again, it's, you know, I'm going to sound like a broken record again, but it's the relationship relationship relationship I've seen plenty of scenarios where like, like you were saying the grandparents gave. Right. Now the parents are giving. And now hopefully the children will give. But if you haven't, especially with today's, you know, youth, if you haven't developed or, you know, started developing a relationship with them, don't count on it. Right. And that's where knowing your donor right so when the parents, when, when, you know, when it's the birthday of the son or the daughter or whomever they're taking care of. You're recognizing that to your donor. You're sending them a little note. Oh, I realized, you know, today's your daughter's birthday. You know, please give her our regards and happy birthday to her. Right. So now that's getting shared with their children. Now their children are starting to see your organization and feel recognized within your organization. So just so many opportunities. So that's a big deal. And I, I've gone through this with a client of mine. And, you know, really big donor, almost one of those blank check donors you could ask this gentleman for anything and here's your check, you know, but then how do you engage that next layer of generation and one of the ways that she did this was, you know, inviting his extended family, inviting his children, inviting his grandchildren to come to the event, you know, asking them to be her guest because she wanted to honor the fact that he has been such a loyal and dedicated donor. And so really making opportunities to bring in the extended family so that you don't lose the relationship when you lose that person. Right. Absolutely. Couldn't have said it better. Absolutely. It's so interesting. Well, we have had a lot of comments already that have come in. And one of them that says, and again, I'm just reading these, as they come in, excellent information for an op for an operations perspective to expand and help the organization expand our fundraising efforts and ideas. I will be engaged in this series. Thank you. Wonderful. So that's really interesting because that kind of harkens back to the notion that we as a fundraising team or development team might need to communicate back out just exactly what you said, Tony, if you're not sitting in your seat you're fundraising, right. And to kind of like maybe share the same concept with your board with other team members so that they know it is about building a relationship and that everybody matters. Absolutely. That's such an interesting thing. I don't think we do that enough. I don't think we go back to, you know, our operations team or our facilities management folks or whatever and say yeah you are a part of this fundraising effort, whether you realize that or not. Everybody's on the fundraising team. Yep, exactly. We have another comment great episode looking forward to the other episodes. So absolutely this is a series we just went through part of phase one. And so, Julia if you will pull up the amazing circle because that is such a great icon graph that I think is really important and I'm going to ask Julia maybe if you'll see the concept right of these episodes I put you on on the hot seat for all of this. But Tiffany comes to us with a series of information with the fundraising Academy cause selling. I was listening to a podcast the other day Tony and it really struck me. It was about venture philanthropy. And so that was that was a topic for this podcast that I was listening to on my walk. And now here we are talking about cause selling. This is that beautiful three phase approach. I think you said there's eight. I'm not going to count real quick but yes eight steps I see the eight right there. So this is a series and as you'll see exclusive through March so yes great episode thank you so much Tony Beal. And there will be others if you didn't join live that's a okay you can definitely see this recorded all of them will be recorded and archived on our multiple channels. Exactly so as we meet again we're going to talk on the next time about moving into phase two what that looks like and you'll see us even learning more how to naturally I'm going to use the sort of naturally move through cause selling and I think we need to really be sharing with our teams and with our organizations and ourselves that we have a shift in mindset here cause selling it's not that we're just asking for money and that selling is another word for communication I think that's my personal opinion. Absolutely. I mean again we sell all the time every day. And what you said and I think that was just so perfect Tony you're selling a solution to a community problem. Absolutely. We just want to be a part of that solution. Everybody wants to be a part of a solution. Everybody. Absolutely. Well Tony you're a total gem we've learned so much. I think maybe you've also confirmed some things today for me about why we need to take these steps, and maybe to reduce some of the pressure that we feel about oh my God we got to get the check we got to get the check we got to be out. So we need to recenter change our mindsets and understand that this is a longer term relationship. I'm super thrilled. Here's Tony's information Tony bill is coming to us from Florida. So we're excited about that. The National University is based in San Diego but serves students of learning at all different levels throughout the globe really. And so check out that National University fundraising academies website, really, really great. And we'll see that the fundraising academy method is available at other institutions educational institutions around the country. And so there's a great opportunity to even get into this further. Tony you are very closely aligned to CFRE studies and testing correct. That's correct so a lot of our professional development is approved by CFRE for continuing education credits so that's really important to us I mean, one of the things around our curriculum is we really look at it as an added value to the sector, not a competition to any of the other great, you know professional development and learning opportunities that are out there so we value very much our relationship with AFP and CFRE. Okay, awesome. That's good to know because I think that so many of us in the sector, we are searching for knowledge we're searching for additional training and sometimes it can be fraught with a little bit of, you know competition or you know redirection so really, really exciting and just learned like I said so much. Looking forward to this. Make sure that you find time to invest in this with us if you went out into the marketplace and had to write the check for actually sitting down in these it would be quite a different experience and and expense. So we're really excited that we were able to snag you in for this special series Tony. I'm so honored so honored to be with you both thank you. Thank you. I am buzzing this is the stuff that I love to nerd out on it's like you just. It's like I just had a you know, four shots of espresso because I could just keep talking about this stuff. I understand completely. Oh my gosh well again we want to thank our sponsors because without them, we would not be here. Really taking this bold step for us. And we want to appreciate everyone's time. These segments do run a little bit longer. But again, thank you to our sponsors that have afforded us this. Hey, it's been another great day for us at the nonprofit show. And we're really really excited to remind everyone to join us back so we can keep following this amazing mindset and learning opportunity, and we end every day with our mantra. Stay well, so you can do well.