 Welcome, thanks for joining us today if you join us for the green room chat or you heard me call today money a and I'm really excited to do that because Friday, ie Friday, it all the fun, but Maria is going to be a lot of fun Maria Brian is here with Maria Brian creative to talk to us about creating your nonprofit with purpose so Maria we're excited to have you here and looking forward to diving into this conversation, but before we do we want to make sure that all of our guests that are listening live or listening to our 500 plus episodes know who we are Julia Patrick is here she's the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. I'm Jared ransom her nonprofit nerd but also yours because I like to say there's plenty of me to go around CEO of the Raven group. We of course are supported and sponsored by so many amazing companies. Thank you so very much to blooming American nonprofit Academy fundraising Academy nonprofit nerd your part time controller nonprofit Atlas nonprofit thought leader as well as staffing boutique. Please do check these companies out not now but at about 29 and a half minutes would be the best time to check them out. We of course want to let you know as I said earlier, if you miss today's show you want to go back and listen, or any of our other 500 plus episodes you can find us on Roku YouTube fire TV and Vimeo. If you have a smart TV, just say the nonprofit show and we will pull up. I'm still joking that we will pull up one day in hologram form, but we might really be working on that so we can be sitting with you on the couch. And just like the sham wow and the infomercials, but wait, there's more. So please do pull us up on the nonprofit show in your, in your queue for podcasts because we are on your podcasting platform thanks to our executive producer, Kevin for making that happen. Maria time for you. I'm thrilled and welcome. Thank you so much and like hologram on the couch is probably like in our near future. Yeah, we're working on it. In fact, my 11 year old is like coding camp right now working on that. Oh, put her on it. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. What a great way to spend Monday morning. You know, Jared and I talk about this so much Maria on air and off air. And that is, we see nonprofits that do really well because they are beautifully marketed. And I don't know why it's so hard for our sector to embrace this. I mean, I have been in board meetings I've heard from many many nonprofit leader who will say, and I have witnessed this, where the board will be like well what the heck do we need dollars for you know that's a waste of money. I mean it's just such a horrible conundrum. And so we're really excited to have you here to talk about this because it really is an investment that needs to be made. And you maintain and I can't wait to hear your thoughts that marketing is foundational to any nonprofit success so talk to us about that. It really is. And what I love about the nonprofit space and what is so special about the nonprofit space is they really do put their services and programs first. When someone starts a nonprofit, they're putting their whole heart and soul into developing the most amazing impactful program or service or messaging it as far as if you just want people to you know, go get checked out for cancer or whatever it is that is their focus. And what's important to them is that they're delivering the most high quality thing out there. And so marketing is on the back burner. And what I want to evangelize is that your brand must reflect the level of your services. So if you have high quality services you have to have a high quality brand. And that is what people are going it's your front, especially now in 2022. It's how people perceive you it's how you're building trust with people, and not just donors, but partners getting trust from journalists getting clients and beneficiaries. If you have a need, no matter what the problem your nonprofit solving, people are going to make those decisions and whether they're going to take partner services based on your brand, based on how well your website looks or how your social media is really it is makes such a huge difference for buy in, not just for people who could potentially be your supporters but even your current supporters. They will, you know, they'll be it'll be their best kept secret until you have this phenomenal brand and then they want to be like yes that that this is the nonprofit I've been supporting for 10 years. So people don't want to invest in marketing be in it goes with the same overhead myth if it's not directly going to the people they serve. It feels like it's wasted money, it's wasted dollars but it's absolutely not it. We knew make sure that your messaging resonates with people that you have a brand that is exciting and energizing and motivational to people if you're telling stories in a quality way. People are just going to want to buy in and they're just going to want to shout it out from the rooftops. One of the things we've said here quite often is people want to be on a winning team and when our marketing is winning and we have that halo effect of attracting other. I love so much that you said, you know, this isn't just for our donors this is for our partners are collaborators are clients you know our can see all all all individuals. And I love that you also hit the nail on the head because too many, and I'm going to say founders I'm going to call it out that they'll say, I cannot put X amount of money towards X, Y and Z. X amount of meals I could purchase or X amount of dogs I can save and I'm thinking. And when you invest in these transformational opportunities to elevate your mission, your brand your awareness, think just then how many more you can you can provide. I love that you, how do you talk to how do you talk to you know the nonprofit leaders like that you know in the space of no no no you're you're still thinking too small. Yeah, and it's so tough because what I was just going to say is, again when you're a founder. It's likely because because you've been impacted so greatly about the issue. And there's a panic right like we just have to focus on on it right now and it is about. Pushing your vision a little bit and dreaming a little bit about what you can do and when I tell people is to press pause. And it's so hard, whether you are a founder of a small organization or you're the marketing manager of a humongous organization that's been around for 60 years. So I'm going to pause on what kinds of marketing you're doing now or maybe other activities to focus on maybe it's writing those grants that will directly fund your marketing activities, or just being strategic about how you're going to use your most precious time and resources to focus on marketing. And here's the thing, even if you do invest in it. It's not going to have. Because that might not come to fruition overnight marketing is a long game right we all know marketing is a long game it's so hard when clients come to me and they're like, I invested in this influencer or, you know, and I spent so much on my website and where are all my new donors and so it is a balance between making sure that you feel a lot of it is mindset right so you need to just have the confidence that you are are building towards something so sometimes it might just be a matter of first. I'm really letting people know that that this works. When you invested marketing it does improve your brand and what happens when you improve your brand you're going to be able to amplify your message. Get those loyal ambassadors that are going to want to, you know, be a rabid fans and get more donors and, and what people are going to want to be monthly donors instead of just one time donors but once you kind of create that dream, setting expectations on well this is what you can expect the first year really focusing on marketing and then in five years and then in 10 years and having those expectations set are so important because then you're not feeling so left down that you just throw it out the door. Let me ask you a question and this is a really tough question because you know I don't know I have an answer in my mind but what is the percent to total that an organization should spend on marketing. When it comes to their total annual budget do you have an umbrella amount. I mean I know it's a super hard question. I love that question. I do not have an answer. And it's not. Yeah, and I know that this isn't what you're saying because it's not just about add dollars because it is it's about like hiring someone is still like it all matters. Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't know I really don't know. I'm going to take that question though I'm going to I'm going to see what I can because those numbers I know are meaningful. Yeah, my answer is always seven to 11%. People are like that's a lot but the reality is that would be an umbrella amount for your website, you know for your digital marketing that bleeds over into fundraising because of, you know, the different components of staffing. Yeah, it's a big number but it should be a big number. Yeah, do you have a sense of that. I don't but you know now is is the time for many organizations that are looking at their fiscal year July one start that we're looking at budgeting so I'm going to say you know let's at least shoot for that seven. Although Maria if you get an updated amount please please let us know. And I'm curious Julia like does that seven to 11% come when you have a laser focus plan. You know like how does that impacted and Maria can you talk to us about, you know, as we said your marketing is never done it's your website is never done your house if you are privileged enough to own one is never done. Right so like, is it possible to really have a laser focus plan or is it is it expected for us to meander and have these squirrel moments right. Yeah, yeah. Let's say before I jump into laser focused marketing plans which is, which is my biggest passion. When it does come to numbers so Julia I will say people are surprised by conversion rates. So to know that really only between like one to 3% will convert meaning if you're emailing, you know, 100 people to come to an event. Maybe one will come. And so that's a number that that really on one side will set a fire to we really need to focus on this we really need to be getting more people following us on social media or visiting our website or joining our email list. But also I actually was talking to someone the other day, who was doing her own personal fundraising for an issue she cared about and then she was volunteering for a nonprofit and was given a list of thousands of people. And no context on conversion rates and she got like 12 people to start their own fundraisers and she was just depressed she was just so beside herself that she wasn't able to. I don't know what she has thought it with thousands of people hundreds of people are going to do this and then when I told her I was like oh my gosh that's amazing. And so yeah so that's the other side again it's just about expectations and knowing that some of it is just a matter of a numbers game and how many people you're reaching and it has to be just the absolute right time for someone to be able and willing to donate able and willing to come to an event, whatever your ask may be so that's something that that's the data that I usually share with people when they're when they need to visualize what it's going to take for their marketing to take off. That's good and you know when you first said 12 I was like wow thinking that is great. But when you talk about having a plan. Are you saying that we should be putting these metrics in so that we understand what is a good. Absolutely absolutely so I'm a really simple framework for having a laser focused marketing plan one is to have a deep understanding of your audience and we all like we kind of mentioned before. It's not just donors and it's not just people we serve based on the bigger organizational goals we have whether we just focusing on improving our services, or we're trying to get the word out there or maybe we've got the word out there but we're really, you know honing in on one particular ask like becoming a monthly donor, or a capital campaign. So having a very deep audience of those people that you are trying to reach is crucial. So that's step number one step number two is creating those goals, and having those objectives and tactics and I really want the people my students and my clients to choose a very few right because a lot of times not probably we don't have this huge team. We're doing it all on our own so just one maybe two goals and maybe a few tactics under that. And so that's when we talk about what we call KPIs keep performance indicators what we are tracking. And I tell people that there are two kinds of things that that you want to be tracking your lead and your lag metrics I don't know if if you've heard about this. So your, your lag metrics are those numbers that you really want to reach, but you never have complete control over it. So maybe that's you have 100 people on your email list and you want to hit 1000 by the end of your year. And that's really ambitious right but it's great to have like that metric in mind because then you've done the math of what your conversions are. And the, the lead metrics are those metrics that you do have control over. So we're going to create a lead magnet. We're going to make that ask twice a month for social media followers we're going to do a webinar that's going to, you know, whatever that is, they can be very much project based and not necessarily like broader based. So that does a few things one, it's keeping you accountable to move towards that goal. And two, again, I keep saying this it's all about your confidence in marketing a lot of times. If you don't hit if your only goal is that 1000, 1000 people subscribing, and you don't hit it or thousand dollars let's let's talk about fundraising, you know, and you haven't hit that fundraising goal. If you put that campaign into the world or you put all those things out to the world that will help you reach that goal so a lot of people talk about lean lag, like losing weight. So your, your lag goal might be that you want to lose 10 pounds and your, your lead metrics would be the, you know, the change in your diet and the kinds of exercises you're doing how much more water that you're drinking. So having a combination of different kinds of metrics to keep you on track is is really important. And then the last thing is content planning, and not just kind of going, you know, as you go, just to get something out there. Once you know who you're trying to reach and you know how you're going to do it. It's time to actually put all that messaging in place so that this serves a couple of things. And then make sure that the content that you're putting on. I'm not just talking social media. It can podcast, it can be keynote, you know, speeches that you're giving. It can be webinars that can be your press releases. It can be coming on the nonprofit show. Absolutely. I really think you're going to talk about like what are you what are you being authority on what what is it that you want to bring to the table when you're coming on. You know, the nonprofit show. So when you and I know what some people are thinking but like things change so quickly how can you create all of this content and advanced it's to me it's never wasted because when you plan it all in advance is going to give you space to make those changes as you go. So let's just say with the campaign you've so much goes into planning and campaign might be tempted to like let's just recreate the social media and emails as we go because right now we've got to do all the logistics for the campaign. If you're doing that there is going to be so many missed opportunities to do those direct outreach pick up the phone and make those calls encourage those peer to peer campaigns, get the board a little bit more involved, get the staff a little bit more involved. And all of that at once, right so once you have your game plan it's time to. And then when I talk about pressing pause this is a space to press pause and create content leave room for things to happen in the world, culturally or whatever a pandemic, whatever it may be. But it's never wasted to to have that content it's going to be diverse, it's going to be purposeful and we talked about purpose driven marketing. It's going to feel like you're talking right to them because you've taken the time to be thoughtful about it. Do you find, because I know a few of my clients are struggling with this that many of their social media content is very prescribed and it's not very organic and so they feel that the audience may feel disconnected, you know, like it's just very robotic and we are pushing this out. Yeah, and it's like how, how do we find that that comfortable blend. I love that you know some people do a really great job, just plain content at hand doesn't mean that it's just here's the image and here's the copy and I've created all and it's putting it on. Maybe it's speaking points for one of your staff to come on and do an Instagram live, you know, and just to kind of give them direction on what to talk about but I love that Jarrett because you do have to put in space to show up, you know, and that's another thing about content planning is it gives you space to be creative about maybe doing some fun behind the scenes, you know, really bringing, you know, your human side of your nonprofit, you know, highlighting featuring your volunteers and your clients if it makes sense to do that. Really art creativity is is it's not infinite, it's finite. And if you're planning content as you go I feel like it that will make it feel more prescribed because you're in what I call this marketing manic of like you just have to get something out there. Yes. Yeah, three out of five content things a month. And then maybe two of them will be really organic fluid, whatever is like trending, you know, but if you're doing it every day that's going to be tough. Things I most adored and still adore when it happens but I feel like so many companies, nonprofits included really humanized their, their mission, their staff that you know like, we got to meet their dogs we got to see their home we got to see, you know, their family members now I know not all people are really, you know, into that because it might seem like oh that's not professional you know, but I love it because it's like look at the look at the person behind this mission look at the people that make up this amazing team. And that's what I love and now we're seeing a lot of these companies that are starting to meet their colleagues for the very first time in person, while they've been working, you know, together but in separate location over the last couple of years. And again that humanizing story. Do you think that will continue. I hope so what a magical moment. Yes, I mean there's like a toddler or cat in every zoom meeting. And I just, I can't get enough of it so in the for profit world we say that people will buy from people they know like and trust, and I think that's absolutely applicable in the nonprofits face. I agree. Donate to nonprofits they know, so you have to get in front of them, and then they have to like you, and then they have to trust you. Humanizing your not not just throwing numbers at them like impact numbers at them but being likeable is as simple as letting your hair down and telling your story so I'm actually in addition to teaching nonprofit marketing planning and the marketing director of an incredible nonprofit organization called City and Girls, and like many founders are founder free wrestle who's an incredible leader wants to put her programs front and center not herself, but she had a beautiful baby. At the end of the year, and let me tell you the top post for all of 2021 was that her birth announcement her holding her little baby. Absolutely I mean people like, of course we want to see what's going on in your program but really people want to know about people and what's going on, you know, well speaking of our of our mission and unfortunately our time is flying by. Let's take the next couple of minutes to talk about storytelling and storytellers and the impact this makes on our nonprofit. Yeah, I mean I think it just kind of it's continued from what I said, when you are now I learned this in journalism right numbers can go really over people's heads like the context is high C Julia just understanding being in media for so long. Stories that are the catalyst for changing hearts and minds and getting people to act. So you might have served 1000 people or maybe there's a really alarming stat that your nonprofit wants people to know to get you to act. But when you hear the story of one person or one family that was impacted by this nonprofit. It really can totally change your trajectory and make you become a huge advocate for this issue that you hadn't even heard about yesterday and now you are just absolutely invested. So the storytelling is everything. It's everything really getting to know the people that are being served. It develops that like and that trust, and then know we'll start with the story so you tell a story and then those three things start kind of snowballing Before, before the episode before I joined us live today I was just on a call, working with a digital marketing, or sorry, a direct mail campaign provider we were looking at digital marketing we're looking at the direct mail piece so the written copy. We're talking about the story and how important that is to be so relatable, you know, like we want everyone to open that mail, hear a story of our mission see a person that is relatable. The community need and how that resonates with us individually right and so how much of that goes into the content and the entire plan. You know because that's just an element of direct mail but we've touched on social media we've touched on phone calls and relationship building. So what you know let's just dive a little deeper like how how important is that to to doing it so well. This much as possible. Yeah, I mean like the last thing that I did the campaign that they did before was we raise this much will serve this many people and that was the whole campaign like all the numbers. Yes, next campaign. We didn't, and none of our mess every message was a story was a coach that whose life was a change was a student whose life was changed. A parent whose life was changed, and it was like, donate to this campaign because look, look what it will do. Yeah, it was, it was 100% story based all stories. Well, I think you can take up a point, a data point, and I think you can weave that into the story. But I think you're right if you're just pushing those numbers. I think as a society right now we're overloaded with data. It kind of loses its magic, but everybody can remember a story remembering a number, not so much. It's a little tough. Yeah, and it can be misinterpreted or can be misspoke, right. You know, and, but a story. It holds into our psyche somehow. Yeah, add to what you're saying Julia and it absolutely doesn't mean just stories alone. Like if a post is, we're going to tell a story today and then talk about the data tomorrow but you can do both at the same time. You can lead with the story and then say, you know this. This is not unique. This affects this many women in our country, or this many students or this many pets. Yes, absolutely. I mean they go hand in hand. That's a big practice that I teach in grant writing is really blending those two data the statistics and the, you know, as we say the the tug and cry kind of moments, because you never know who's reviewing the proposals, and how they're making those decisions and so I really do think having that that beautiful blend of data, you know that research that is local, it directly impacts the community in which you're serving, and then that story in which you know the person going back to humanize is it right makes it so relatable. It's been, it's been amazing to see the change the shift on so many nonprofit leaders, Maria you have driven so much of the importance of this home and we're so grateful that you're here. We wish that time could stop and we could just continue hurting out with you, but Maria Brian CEO of Maria Brian creative which I love your logo that's Thank you. It's beautiful. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much for having me my favorite thing to talk about marketing. We love this. We love this conversation. I think that we don't talk about this enough across the sector, and we certainly don't invest in it enough so thank you so much for shining a light on how this really can be. It should be a central way we approach, you know, the business of our nonprofits so thank you Maria. Check out her website it's really beautifully done it has some great information, and you can learn about the different things that that Maria is doing it's been really a pleasure to have you. Again, I'm Julia Patrick I've been joined today by the nonprofit nerd yourself Jarrett ransom CEO Raven group. Again, we want to make sure that we thank all of our presenting sponsors and hint hint Jarrett. I think we're going to have some new logos up there and then you will soon absolutely. So we're very excited and we're very, very blessed. Again, we want to thank Bloomerang, the American nonprofit Academy your part time the nonprofit nerd fundraising Academy, the nonprofit Atlas nonprofit thought leader and stuff in boutique. Again, these are the folks that have been with us day in and day out that allow us to have these amazing conversations and connect with people really all over the globe right Jarrett I mean, it's it's not just here in our in the in North America it really is an amazing thing that we've been able to bring a lot of different viewers from around the world and again these sponsors make it possible. As we end every episode we want to remind ourselves and each other. Stay well so you can do well we'll see you back here tomorrow everyone.