 Reverend Kuka Slam's President Bahari's administration says Nigerian leaders are heartless. And could the violence in the South East be a plot to undermine the cause for equal presidency? Well, you'll find out because this is plus politics and I am Mary Annacol. Catholic Bishop of Sakuto Dias' Bishop Matthew Kuka is in the news again. This time he described Nigerian leaders as heartless and allegedly watching terrorists turn the country into a killing field. He also slammed the administration of President Mohammed of Bahari for failing to address the country's security challenges. He said, and I quote, the continuous barbaric slaughter of our people in their innocence suggests that our beautiful presidential villa, national assembly and government houses are not moving with civilization. End of quote. This conversation is Alesta Wilcox, a political analyst and Joseph Hayab, the Secretary General for the Christian Association of Nigeria, can in Kaduna. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us in this conversation. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. All right. Okay, I'm going to start with you Alesta before we go to Reverend Hayab. What do you think Bishop Kuka means when he says that those who govern us are allowing the killings of citizens because they have no blood in their hearts? Now, is our ruling class really allowing for these killings to go on, on a baited and not doing anything about it because this is what a lot of people seem to think? Kuka is coming up with this analogy. Is this a specter of the revered Bishop Kuka? Maybe before he becomes Bishop, you understand, but since he called me Bishop, I guess he has joined the class and he no longer become the real man. His statements are very, very unfortunate. And it shows a man who is political rather than being realistic. And it's quite unfortunate ever to respect Reverend Kuka, Bishop Kuka. When he was the Catholic Diocese of Exclusions for Lagos, he was a well-respected man and his world command authority. So for him to have come up with this kind of analogy and he believed that it was there for his precedent, saying that the president is careless about what happens in the land and anybody in his position cannot make such a statement because that's on their mind again. They sacrifice, and each time I talk, I talk about the sacrifice and the activity actions of our security agencies, the military, the police that are paid supreme prices in protecting this country. There is crime everywhere. What you have to do with crime has to do with ideological crime and violent crime. You cannot get it all at once. He never starts under his watch, under this watch. He has been doing all that he can to contain it. If it was easy to contain, Afghanistan would not remain a reference point to the three years after. If it was easy to contain, Iraq would not be a violent Syria and all those areas. So it's unfortunate that Bishop Kuka is coming up with this. He has his reasons. Essentially, he's most empathetic and does a lot of nice sacrifices made by our military. Those who are paying the supreme sacrifice to keep him and other Nigerians safe. That there are still gaps in successes does not mean that a president is doing nothing. I think that's unfortunate and nobody expects that from him. I don't expect from him. His supporters might expect that from him, but I think that's part of his character. You kept referring to the bishop as was, a revered, was. Is he no longer revered by people? Is that what you're insinuating? That he's no longer as intelligent as he used to think he was? That his words no longer are powerful? You also said that he sounded more like the president is not careful. You're saying that the president is careless as to what's happening in the country. Is the president careful as to what's happening? Has he shown any form of humanity towards the lives of the people that have been lost over the months and even last year? Is there any humanity coming from the presidency or except when it's very political or touches where the president is more sensitive than he is careful? Can you expand shade on that? Bishop, I still respect him as a bishop. All his activities, while he was in Lagos, where he was a fairer, a fair critic. There's really a critic, no doubt. He's really a critic of government. He tackled Bangladesh to the standstill. So he's really a critic of government. And so it's not a today's business. But what I'm saying is, so he's still a revered revered. I mean, those who share his opinion, we get him. Those who want to hear the negative thing about Nigeria, they won't get him. But I will give him a thumbs down on this issue. Now, is the president careless? Of course, this is a president who came up and carried out some far-reaching, far-reaching actions on the subject in the Northeast. First and foremost, you look at the epic center, the command center to Medugri, change service, change, I mean, change the command and control structure, and so says he came. Unfortunately, we have a proliferation, most time politically motivated, violence all over the land. It doesn't make him careless. This is a man who has got to cancel meetings with his service chiefs almost a weekly basis. How careful has the president been with this issue I asked earlier on? You're telling me that he's not careless, but how careful has he been when the issue of banditry started as a very little, little pocket of violence? How careful was the president to deal with it before he became this big, hydro-headed monster? No, no. Banditry does not start meeting as small. He inherited all these problems. How careful has the president been with this issue of his security? There's a banditry in the Northwest. Why Boko Haram was on the Northeast? There's a banditry. Now, you are fighting on various fronts. You are stretching your military, but you are fighting on various fronts. The army has been equipped daily. We see the army, we see the air force, and we see them giving new equipment on daily basis. Now, the man does not go to war front like the elite chairman and president. That does not make him careless. The food soldiers are doing the job. They may be overwhelmed, but they are doing the job. They put their hands on the lines to do the job. Now, there are social issues, there are failures. So that does not make him careless because the military is funded. There is a budget allocation. There are actions going on. The soldiers are losing their lives, but they are making him careless. We want him to go to war, to go to war front before he becomes, because we know that he is doing something. We keep doing what he has to do from the command center. And then, if the sources have come, nobody will follow him. I'm going to move to Revan Hayab now. Revan Hayab, this is not the first time that Bishop Kukka is in the news, of course, or attacking government on either not being good as they should be, or in terms of how non-empathetic or empathetic that the government has been towards the killings in the different parts of the country. He expressly talked about the lack of empathy of the federal government and the lack of value for human lives. He said that, and I said that at the beginning, that the National Assembly, the federal government, which is the executive, and everybody else in government seems not to have moved with civilization. How has the response of government been in terms of the killings in the country as opposed to what you heard Alesta say? I am happy to see Alesta, but I'm also shocked that Nigerians have people who would think like him and come publicly to speak. It is sad. I have been napped in a seminar and was killed by Bandit. Bishop Kukka's death was killed, and the 70-year-old man that they were in the same room was also killed. And Bishop Kukka is expressing concern because it's not just Bishop Kukka, every right-thinking Nigerian who knows what is going on in this country knows that people are being killed in their homes, in their churches, in their mosques, on the road, and the government not showing any serious concern. You will come out publicly to say Bishop Kukka is attacking government. Please, if you are in his shoe, you lost your son, you lost your brother, you lost your relation, what else can you say? And he simply said that they are acting as if they are heartless. So if Mr. President is heartless, please help us confirm since you seem to be speaking for him, then come in to speak to someone or to attack someone who has said something that really concerns you and concerns me. And the country I'm in can understand in the past year, year, month and years, I have buried several persons, I've buried several members, I have suffered. Whenever people talk about this government, their lack of commitment to security, they get some young men like you to come and attack them and speak harshly on them without even understanding the consequence of what is happening. We will not pray, but if it happens to one of your own, probably your tone, your language will change. You are speaking here and you said something that they are buying new equipment. Is it not the same government that I am fully aware that recently they invited the Lechif of Amistad to inquire about the equipment and they said he came and there were no equipment and there were no weapons that were purchased and he cannot account for them. Oh, I think we lost Mr. Reverend Hayab again, his connection keeps coming in and out. Let's go back to Alasda. He just made a few points there, hopefully we can get him back to, we'll probably try to get him back on the phone, but Alasda, he's saying that the same army that you are saying has been equipped, monies have been missing, we remember the House committee had summoned the former Chief of Amistad for the late one, the one that just, the Chief of Army that died in that plane crash to come and explain where these monies went. So, over and over that, never in the history of the Nigerian Army have we seen a group of people do a video to complain about the fact that the equipment are moribund and they need more sophisticated weapons to fight the enemy. And this is detailed for even our police officers where the weapons that they are using to fight are not as good as the ones that the enemies are carrying. So, how do we intend to win this war? I am happy that I saw Reverend Hyatt and and I'm happy he talks when he talks, he's a countryman and I'm not surprised if he's attacking me, I don't want for government, I mean Legos, I don't want for government, nobody pays me to speak with anybody, you invite me here you know me, your station knows me I don't live in Abuja, I don't want for government, I'm not a party member. So, I will understand how Reverend Hyatt talks because that has always been the language of Khan, in attacking people who wants to put it across. I'm not oblivious of the fact that we have a lot of challenges Are you saying that Khan is a political party that attacks people? I'm trying to understand what you mean by that's the language of Khan. I will not be categorical I'm a Christian, I will not be categorical on that and so I will not say what I don't but I know the language of Khan and so I respect him and I respect him because his most authority can always look better Yes, he has the right to be outraged when you lose somebody And nobody plays to lose anybody Nobody plays to lose anybody, there was a time in this country when on Christmas Christmas the people don't go out to go to church Most indigenous they are born with all over the place there was that time in this country there seems to have that face that's facing to a personal If you keep saying they are not doing anything, then you are not organizing the fact of how the military has been. Yeah, there are gulfs there and I said that. I never could give the president a pass mark. But if the cook and the bishop are higher, who stay in their rooms and say the government is happy, or is insensitive, or is not, is careless, I wouldn't make such assertions. There are gulfs, there are inefficiencies, there are corruptions. There are high level corruptions within the rank and file in the procurement. We also see if you watch Air Force as 56, you understand what I'm saying. The army commissions, trucks and equipment almost on a daily basis. I'm not in the military, but I can only see what I say, and I can only give benefit of doubt. That is happening, does not make ill, does not say the national assembly. You see what they do, the national assembly. Smarter than me one day, almost wept at the clock. Because that is a general problem. But when can, I understand, I respect him because I've heard of him, his countrymen in Kaduna. And I understand, you know the peoples of Kaduna, the North South dichotomy and the Muslim present dichotomy in that area. So you understand where he will come from and I respect him for his opinion. But he should not say, I'm paid. That is anti-Christian, I'm a Christian like you. That is on Christian like, to make accusations that you cannot justify. And I'm trying to hear me. So I respect you for your opinion. But the fact is what the country, we have challenges. We have failures. We have corruption within the rank and file. When the chief of families that was asked about Ampliqiyom, he said, I don't know because I'm just coming in. So you can dip, dip. When this government came in, they talked about Ampliqiyom, which last Friday was accused, last Friday was accused of investing billions of dollars. The former chief of, the former chair, that's his brother, Baisa, was accused of 5.7 billion dollars. And of course, Khan was there. You're going back to, we're talking about now, the monies that are given to the army now to fight the incidences and banditry. And you're going back to 2010 or 2009. Come on. We're talking about now. We're talking about the monies now. It's okay if you want to go back to good luck or President Abbasantra. But we're talking about the army now with all of these things hanging over the heads of, you know, the army and monies missing. How does this really help us in the fight against insecurity? That's what we're asking. This issue of block passing. How does that help us? How does that help us to deal with the insecurity that we're facing now? Yeah, we have wicked Nigerians. If Bishapuka has told us that Nigerians are wicked. Look, last time in church, when we were praying for Nigerians, I called my father and said, look, let's pray for Nigerians. We have wicked Nigerians all over the place. Wicked cities are really, very wicked cities are really. That means the President, members of the National Assembly including you are wicked people. But when you put at the doorstep of say the President is unmindful, I'm not in his mind. I'm not in his cabinet. I can only give a break from where I'm coming from. You can give the military money and they will embezzle it. I mean, we have such issues. 16 billion was spent on our underpassing job. They were totally embezzled. And Khan was there. They speak out in all these things. So they have their ending. They have their agenda. I'm a Christian. I'm a member of Khan. But at the same time, I must be optioned. I must be very unbiased. I must be very straightforward. So if he says, people like me speak for government. I don't sleep. I don't know anywhere else. I don't even know where I'm from. I'm only speaking based on what I can defend. There are challenges. I mean, we are all sitting ducks. We can get caught up in every every time we will pray for safety. And that is what we have to be higher to pray for. And not to wish anybody's family to be involved. We should pray for the safety of everybody. That's why the challenge is I pray for safety. I pray for the military. And I must pray for the military every day to give them the strength, the courage, the tactics to be able to defeat this monster. It's a monster that all of us must defeat. It doesn't need a blame game. Where leadership is failing, we call it to order. You don't do sweeping and realization. And say this is happening. When someone holds you back. You say it was paid. That's the sort of Christian life and I don't think another death is good of a man standing up to be higher to be respected. Who might not respect the loss. I'm going to come back to you Reuben. Hayab, we lost our connection for a bit but I think you are back now. Bishop Cookot also referred to the fact that our leaders know these people, they know these killers. I'd like to quote him directly, he says, we know who they are. We know who they believe in. We believe in, we know where their beliefs lie. He also says that, but government has never declared these people kidnappers. He's asking why these people have not been called terrorists, because we call them unknown government. Sometimes we call them bandits, we call them kidnappers, we call them all kinds of things. There are people who have also been of the opinion that, I mean, these are critics who have said in certain courses that the government was quick to prescribe the likes of IPOB. And of course, there's an attack on the ESN also, as to the fact that they could be people who are killing and burning down INEC offices. Even though the governor of EMOS states has come out to say those attacks were not done by EMOS and that they have videos to prove it. So the question is, why is it so difficult? Is there an ambiguity of sorts as to naming and shaming and dealing with these people who are terrorizing the country? It is sad that in this country, we are regionalizing crime. We want to give criminals the regional name or regional identity. For the entire enemy of Nigeria is the enemy of Nigeria. Anybody who crosses the road in Nigeria is an enemy. Our government keeps them in a position to empower them. I think one of the reasons why many Indians are worried is the government seems to be sticking with others with people and then speak to others with anger. But people don't begin to wonder if there are enemies in the south, enemies in the north. Speak to them with the same language. Show them that they are enemies of Nigeria. You must not treat some enemies as if they are across the inner room and then the other enemies are children of the outside room. No, an enemy of this country is an enemy of this country. So the concern of Nigeria and what is the hookup was simply saying is that these bandits are not in it. Everybody knows them. The fact about this is that recently Gumi went out to many of the countries and had talked with these bandits. So they are not in it. What is the government doing to go after these people who are causing mayhem, killing innocent people, cutting the life of very committed young men short? That's why he said, don't feel that she seems to be heartless because they don't think, they don't care. They don't feel the pain the mother of these young people feels. They don't feel the pain the community where these young people feel. They don't feel the pain of the parishioner or people who watch it in the same month of these people who are being killed are feeling. Because then she showed that she is contained. So that is what we're saying. My colleague on this program I'm not sure that I said those things yesterday and I simply wanted you to know that when people are crying because one of them is dead, understand with them, sympathize with them, then when you begin to accuse them, it's not even empathy. You don't even care. You think Puka will just come out and start speaking because his mouth is, he has nothing to do. So why we simply want my parents to know this? We are crying that something is wrong with our country. Those who have given the responsibility of leading us in Nigeria are not being what is right. The constitution empowers the government to protect lives and property. Lives are being killed, properties are being destroyed, property is not being anything here. We watch it now. Let me use the next example. What is happening in my place today? Well, Revan Hayab, yesterday, the president, he just listened to your first statement. He killed all these people in your community. The next thing is the first statement. What have they really done to stop this evil? What have they really done to stop this evil? Revan Hayab, can you hear me? We are rising up. We want to move freely. It's coming to where people are not free. We will not go economically because people cannot be. Okay, Revan Hayab, can you hear me? Because I want to ask you a question. I want to give it to you in Nigeria. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Revan Hayab, can you hear me? Let me ask you a question. I'm thinking that you're just going on and you can't hear me. People had been asking the president to show concern, to show some humanity, speak to the people, and he did. Well, yesterday, the speech of Mr. President did not go down well with the loss of people. As we could tell, his tweet was deleted by Twitter because, of course, they had said that it one way or the other violated the guidelines of the platform. And that in itself also brought another outrage of sorts. Certain people, including the federal government, is saying that Twitter is taking sides. Well, the president had spoken, and he spoke in strong terms about the people who are terrorizing the country. And in that same video, he asked what people really wanted him to do, that he's really doing his best. What do they want him to do? And he also spoke about the fact that the people who are attacking the country are trying to bring down his government. The president has spoken. What else do we expect from the president? I mean, he has spoken, and he said, he's doing a lot about it, and he's done his best. And he asked, what else do you want me to do? So what else are we expecting from the president? Revan Hayab. The president is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. The president commands, and it is done. The way the president has been commanding his troops to go to the South East, if he has done that long time ago in Katrina, long time ago in Sokoto, long time ago in Kaduna, long time ago in North East, probably wouldn't have been where we are today. Even the speech you are trying to say, thank God that Tuta came out publicly to remove him because those words were hard. You see, the president and his men believe they can use very vulgar language on Nigeria, and they feel Nigeria cannot also speak. Thank God Twitter once again showed them that there is a limit to your accession. If you want to use the words the president spoke on video, can you really say those words were from here? Nigerians are discussing those words and not from here. Those words like, jump this word, jump this word. How could Ineq visit Mr. President? And the president of Mr. President had nothing to do with Ineq. Mr. President divided to another competition altogether because that is what his mind has been programmed to see. What we are simply saying is that those around Mr. President shall allow him to be the president of Nigeria. Speak to Nigeria, not guided one. Unless Bohari speaks to Nigeria as Bohari, if he's just speaking those words that he's been guided to speak, they will sound sweet to him. Are you insinuating that the president, are you insinuating, Reverend Hayab, that the president is not in charge of the affairs of the presidency? Are you insinuating that our president is not hands-on and he's being told what to say, really? The possible is that even Nigeria knows you that in the past many months, we've been hearing more about the president from Femi and from Galba. The fact is that the president just come out of nowhere, we want after three months or two months to say something very short. Why is that happening? We want our president to speak to us. We protest with him, and he is our president. We did it in one of the areas I've always said that Nigeria is one of the most ancient countries. A country where certain things will be done and people will move away with it. In other countries, it's not going to happen. Let there be this kind of evil and killing going on for one week and the president have not upset the people, have not really spoken to the generalist life. Not some people speaking for him, only in Nigeria there are things like this happen. Okay, Alastair, I'm coming back to you. There was just a post, I think today, by one of the famous Nigerian preachers, Apostle Sulaiman, and he also was speaking about the fact that people have died. Students were kidnapped. People were raided. Homes were raided. I'd like to read exactly what he said. School children were kidnapped. No federal press conference to address it. People are killed daily. No word of stern threat to the bandits. A tweet was deleted and you had a press conference and he says, define joblessness. Alastair, help us out here, please. I've just seen this tweet for the first time and I cannot respond to Apostle Sulaiman. With due respect to him, I don't live in him so I won't respond to him. Well, it's not a matter of believing in anybody. He's a Nigerian citizen. He's seeing the things that are happening every day. He has an opinion and I'm asking you, this is a valid opinion. He's saying that this is what has happened over the weeks, people are dying in their numbers and the numbers are stacking up. There has not been any press conference. Remember, I said people have asked the president to speak, none of that has happened. But then a tweet is deleted and we have the minister of information addressing the press. So what is this government's priority when it comes to the issue of insecurity? Is it people or is it the politics or is it about the president's Twitter handle? Which is more important to this government? You understand something and that I'm not surprised that my brother Reverend Hyatt, my street boy father Reverend Hyatt will support Twitter. I'm asking you a question and I'm not asking you about Reverend Hyatt. I'm not asking you a question. I'm just seeing a positive amount of tweets. I'm just seeing it for the first time so I have not digested it. Even the president's tweets, Twitter has the right to decide what they want. But of course, the president said it's clear signal and that is where we have selective acceptance of what the president does. The president made a clear case, a clear and only political warning to those who were bent on destroying Nigeria. That he's not going to take a call with that. And Twitter and others are happy. Yet you want the president to speak. So what else? And like you asked my street boy father, what else you want the president to say? He didn't say, he didn't answer that question. Rather he was supporting Twitter in what Twitter did. Where Twitter is the right, that is their business. Although you also know what Twitter did during N-STATS, Twitter was part of the sponsor of N-STATS. So Twitter is an interesting party in this matter. So when that is there, that is their business. Now if the president said, now sorry, if the president said, if the president said, he's going to deal with those who are destroying Nigeria. You know what, he doesn't insult Nigerians. People are busy, you are saying the same thing. People are busy destroying Nigeria, killing Nigerians and the president gave them a stern warning and people Nigerians are saying he should have said that you should have given this speech for him to write now. We are always good at criticizing. So I know we are this, this is more political and people will defend where the president is at last. Now you asked a question about who is meeting the terrorists. Reven, Kukla and Bishakuka are very good friends. They were part of the team that led Artiku to go to a passenger. So they are very close friends. So the Kukla knows that Gumi is and he can make a very strong case with Gumi on this matter. Okay, all right. So it's rather than not joining the president, Gumi and Bishakuka, there is some come. There are people come. Thank you very much for being part of the conversation. Reven Hyatt, thank you very much for being part of this conversation. Time is not on our side. We thank you all. We have to take a short break. When we come back, we will be looking at the connection between the insecurity challenges in the Southeast and the call for equal precedence. Stay with us.