 ready tonight we're debating God the Bible and free will and we are starting right now with our guest will who is our Christian speaker tonight giving his opening statement the floor is all yours will all right thanks a lot James so tonight I'm kind of going to talk about what what I call what I what we personally call to ourselves the the reformed the theological worldview which is also better known as is Calvinism is basically a reformed theology from about the 16th century and it's kind of based off the teachings of John Calvin but there's other Reformation era scholars as well that that helped to apply the the tenets of this particular reform theology and the basic points can be best summed up in the acronym the tulip which is TULIP and these five points basically are total depravity which means that every person is enslaved to sin that people are not by nature inclined to love God or to seek God on their own but rather to serve their own interests and to the and to reject God so therefore every human being has no moral standard as to which that they can apply their salvation the second condition is called unconditional election this means that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on anything that we've done but simply on his own grace his own choice that he makes from his mercy alone and the third one would be called limited atonement which is particularly a particular redemption which means that that there is a elect and non-elect that God has chosen people from his own by his own choice through his own mercy for those from which he would choose and that Jesus's death on the cross is powerful enough for everyone but it really only affects the elect and then there's also the next tenant is called irresistible grace also called infectious grace which asserts that the saving grace of God is affectionately applied to those whom he has chosen and that those people are unable to resist that so that means that it's not a choice that we make ourselves we're not able to say yes or no if you are part if you're one of the individuals that God has chosen you will gain that faith and you will believe in him until eternity and then that's goes into the next one which means the perseverance of the saints which means that those who God chooses he preserves so that they until their death will continue to have that faith so that's really just kind of the the short story of what my theological worldview is and I look forward to speaking with Skyler tonight on the issues and free will you got it thank you very much and want to let you know folks if it happens to be your first time here whole baby this Wednesday on the bottom right of your screen Erica gut sick Gibbon will be taking on Mr. Batman on Noah's Ark and the flood so that should be an epic one you don't want to miss it live so hit that subscribe button so you don't miss it live and be sure to hit that notification button as well so you know when we go live and with that thanks so much Skyler the floor is all yours yeah thank you everybody thank you for having me on the show again James let's just start with a couple things that will brought up about Calvinism let's talk about total depravity so basically all human born beings are born in a way that they are totally depraved immoral first I guess there'd be question to ask all kinds of questions today like I want to know why would God make us like that right why would God make us broken or malfunctioned or in a way that is opposite to his nature in a moral sense very very interesting when you talk about limited atonement are not unlimited irresistible grace it sounds like we're robots to God and that you know no we have to obey him I thought the whole point of a relationship was that we could love someone freely and we could choose to love someone back or accept them I'm not quite sure what the whole point is if we go through all the Christianity like the crucifixion all the things that had to happen what the point is if he just picks and chooses who he wants to save not based on any type of action or well anything on their own because this just decided before people are even born I so many questions about why God would even not want other people to be saved why does he not care about those people does he hate those people the problem with Calvinism is you run into all types of strange questions because the belief structure is so incoherent for a lot of levels unless you just mean God to be some type of monstrous type dictator who commands that you love him and he will make you love him make you accept his salvation if you even if you don't want it and then it will allow others just because he simply chosen for them to depending on the kind of hell most Calvinists I mean believe in eternal torment maybe you're lucky and there's an annihilation is Calvinist here but but if it's you know if it's live and suffer in hell for all eternity we're literally we're just playing out parts of the book that God writes this is you know what predestination is God is predestined all of all of humanity to do the things that they do he made us in a way that is opposite of his nature and I mean one may argue that Adam and Eve are responsible somehow in that you know that federal headship well God's the one who decided federal headship that these sins of Adam and Eve that were pre-chosen that's why it really doesn't because it's God basically create a plan in which Adam and Eve would fall and then also part of that plan was that this sinful nature that would make people worthy of death and would make him completely immoral this would come into the world now and be here for all existence of all maybe not all existence of Jesus comes and some of the people get saved there's a lot of interesting ideas with Calvinism that it seemed to have a lot of problems maybe we'll get more into the discussion part I'll leave it there but I appreciate being on the show once again in a good conversation thank you very much Skyler and we will jump into that open discussion want to let you know folks our guests are linked in the description so you can hear plenty more where that came from we really do appreciate these guys being here with that gentlemen the floor is all yours yes I mean you like to start yeah just go ahead and answer questions away and I'll do my best to answer it as best as I can well I guess my first question is what is the what is the criteria of being an elect there is zero criteria that's unconditional means right there's no condition other than God's mercy in order to be elect and why would he show mercy on some and not mercy on others so there's you have to look at the way the scripture calls it out and that there is the what you have the you have the secret will of God and then you also have so God wants everyone to love him but due to Adam and Eve sin as you mentioned before so we were created perfect we weren't created with sin mankind and then after the fall sin entered the earth and what we really I guess we have to discuss is what what is sin and if you're looking at a a tri-omni God what is sin to us in in in our theological worldview is a is dishonoring God it's a sin against God it's going against God's will right his plan for us and since Adam and Eve went against that then sin entered into the world and therefore now not because of necessarily their sin but yes there is a original sin aspect that's tied to that simply that it's their fault that sin entered into the world sure I understand like the consulate I understand all this I understand what you're saying but what I'm asking is why does he save some and not others if they're all in the same condition in the beginning anyways besides Adam and Eve there is no he has not made it known to us why he chooses to do it that way that would well okay so you don't know that's fun I'm not going to expect you to answer things that you couldn't know or if you don't believe you would know so so basically God do you believe in eternal damnation eternal suffering after you do is there a chance babies will go to eternal suffering I believe that there's there's that even in Calvinism I do believe that there is a strong theological viewpoint for an age of accountability you know Calvary Calvinists just like other older even not Protestant faiths believe in an infant baptism yeah so but why would that be so they would be because they're not guilty of something right because they haven't they they have they don't have the capacity to make a I guess you could say what we call a conscious choice it's not really so that it's not necessarily saying that that we have a free will but we believe that the in the is irresistible grace concept that the Holy Spirit graciously causes the elect to cooperate to believe and to repent and to come freely and willingly to Christ so yes a contradiction what you just said you can't force somebody to do something and say it's free you're there freely doing it right we call it consensual will you can call it whatever you want but it's a contradiction right it's not free will but the person is willingly choosing to do so because they've got made it so well you know they're like a robot to God it's not mechanic mechanicalism well you don't have to be it doesn't have to be it literally it's a robot that God's doing what he wants with his creation yes God does what he wants with his creation and so and also under Calvinism everything that's ever happened is all part of God's plan correct right so every child molestation has ever happened God planned out every detail of it he ordained it to happen he didn't call yes he didn't do it himself yes well when you ordain something you're you're the cause of it it's part of his plan what did it happen what did it happen if he had not ordained it no well and he caused it right but he didn't carry it out himself yeah I mean listen I could hire a seer I could hire someone to kill my wife I would still get charged with murder we're trying to hire someone to kill like he I didn't kill her someone did it for me but if God actually he did we're just a vessel the tool in which he he uses humankind to do it so he did do it he ordained sin to be in the world right he didn't necessarily say to you go and do that act right there's no voice saying go and do that people go against God's will no they cannot as God will people to commit sin no I don't believe he's willed people to commit sin but he he has ordained for these actions to happen there's a difference between saying this is the path in which things will happen and then actually carrying them out himself right the person who does the act is responsible for their act yeah well not if they don't have any control over it they were at the person who writes the program says hey you're gonna do this they don't have any control over it God's ordaining it God has brought it in with his decreed of will but it's going to come to fruition I mean every adult video that's ever been made God has with his decreed of will brought into existence in detail right he allows he allows the things to take place that he has ordained he's part of his common grace yet when you say he ordained then you say it allows that's a contradiction okay it's not if you ordain something you're bringing it into being you're not allowing this thing to come to being on its own you're contradicting yourself right because God is sovereign so nothing can be without God ordaining it to happen correct yes so God caused it to happen yes yes every yes well then God caused every pornographic video that's ever been on the market to in detail he caused it every child rape the Holocaust everything according to your theology he caused it and he didn't have to he literally did it because it pleasures it well he did it for his own glory yes his own glory yet what does that mean what does that mean to bring glory to himself that's that's why God created all of us was for his glory yeah but what does that mean to bring glory to him what does that mean what does it mean to bring glory to himself to show his power to show his his might to show his love to show his justice to show his mercy to show his egotistical he need to show humans all his power basically sure if you want to judge God you could say that yeah well i mean you've got to admit that it's kind of egotistical i mean if anybody else did this kind of asking you like you know what's up dude like i mean if you're saying that he had people rape children to show his glory to show how powerful he was you know when you think that sounds a little odd to the people around here but ordaining sin to exist doesn't mean that God is doing that action himself yeah but he caused it it's just like it's just like if you cause something happen if i if i pay a hit man money to kill my wife i caused that hit man to go he's got responsibility just like i do but you're in no situation where we say God has no responsibility but let's go back to the saving thing right so basically you believe that there are just people God for whatever just sends through eternal damnation for nothing they've done no it's not for nothing they've done they deserve we all are deserving of that same punishment all of us because of the way that God made us we are deserved because of our own actions because of our in us insulting God i didn't do that that was adam and eve who did that so you haven't you haven't lied no no no i could i could point to babies that haven't done those things now are mentally handicapped people but that's not the point right the point is is that you're saying that people are born in a way that makes them completely immoral so God made them this way God created a system in which that adam and eve failed which he set them up to fail so he knew they would fail and then if they fail these are the system to where all human kind would fall into this this nature that now makes them immoral the opposite of him which is very strange for somebody that wants to have a relationship with us but then only chooses very little on that imagine only a few people get elected because do you see it some of the problems there's no there's no there is no number that is in scripture that says how many will be elect there's not a few it could be however many God chose right so i mean you have to understand that it's not one person it could be one person for all we know it could be one person right yeah what a waste of human life and suffering that would be if God created all for just one person would you want to would you if let's just play the the logical mind game that there is that God right would you would you if if God did happen to exist would you want to worship a humanistic God a God that's not sovereign in control of all things not if he does the things your God does no i'm not going to worship that God a God that orders people to execute children and things like that and tells men and mutilate their genitalia and has women you treat his property and slavery in the bible absolutely not if that's how people view their God if you take a biblical position if you don't think that position you know maybe your God is a little lighter the jesus type i like that one better right so God uses God uses evil to glorify himself by causing good to his elect right it all evil works to the good of those why do you say glory is to show how powerful he is right don't you don't you think we already know how powerful he is at this point but he needs to continue to commit violence against children i mean apparently not because there's a lot of people who who deny God and and reject God and and all of those things so because he's a deadbeat father to the world he doesn't do anything the little children die every day every day little people start to death let me ask you is it absolutely immoral if you had the ability if one had the ability to feed a starving child right you had the means you had the ability but you chose not to do it would that be immoral if i would if i was a tri-omni god who authorized morality no it would not be now there's nothing god can do that's immoral no he's god he could he could rape children to be more if that if that's what he would choose to do then yes he would not be immoral because he's the author of morality but that's not what he's chosen to do my god well no he just had other people those other people really did those acts on their own and they were punished for them uh no because he ordained them they did them they did what they were only ordained to do can people go against what ordained by them to do can they go against god's ordinations no they cannot well then there's no choice right they're forced to do it god ordains so there is no choice they're literally like a vessel that has to experience what god has ordained for them to do so do you do you believe in your position and do you believe in free will i don't know if there is free will or not it's an interesting question but i'll say this the reason why i don't have such a problem with it when dealing in a secular world with this topic is one it feels like i have free will like the ability to make choices so i don't really care it doesn't bother me uh second if there is no free will there's no eternal damnation afterwards right like in the biblical version of free will not even really free will what happens in the bible is you know certain people get to go to heaven certain people get to go to hell just basically choose by god's good decision not by any sense of morality or anything because he's the clay go ahead but so far i mean so i'm asking is that like there there are many atheists that also do not believe and i don't know if you're an atheist or not correct me if i'm wrong i'm more agnostic i i definitely don't believe in the christian religion as people describe it but there are there are a lot of people that hold that worldview that also don't believe in free will and we tend to find commonality in the fact that that there is no free will right that they both believe that you're that there are causes and effects and that you know sam harris and all of that jazz right so um i i what i'm concerned with is if there's no free will in a secular worldview why is it so hard to believe that there's no free will in a in a theistic worldview no it's not that it's it's ordinarily there could be some kind of free will it's how it works with your god character right because you know in the other free will like the secular one god didn't cause a tough hitler to have the holocaust happen right in this one it's just a natural means of world that happened right but it wasn't buying an all loving all caring god who supposedly cares about us and wants a relationship with us right the way you make god sound the most Calvinist you make it sound like he doesn't like not a god who wants a relationship with people or cares about people by the way how is him ordaining things meaning he doesn't want to have a relationship with us well he ordains that you won't have a relationship with us that's the whole point of the elect yeah yeah he he he but there's some he's just like nah no thanks i made you but no i don't want to i don't want to be your friend i don't want to have the what and why is that you can go to hell you could suffer all hell because and why is that because the way that god set up the system you ordain Adam and Eve to fail fall and then after their fall they passed off this sinful nature that now makes everybody who's ever born worthy of hell and then god it's you know what it would be like it's like if i walked up to a pool and there were 10 children drowning and i had the ability to 10 throw 10 ropes out that i could catch every baby i could save every baby and then i just said one three and ten i'll save those babies that's what god does so do you think that that we are guilty because of what adam and eve did or are we guilty for our own actions you you explain that we're guilty because of our sinful nature that's what you told me right so i what i said was that because of the fall the original sin that adam and eve had right we're not guilty for their sin because they sin nature though now because they yeah because they sin sin entered into the world i understand that right and we are guilty from our own actions not from their actions no there's plenty of people who don't sin and uh who hasn't sinned the babies mentally handicapped people so mentally handicapped people can't lust they can't lie depends on how bad the mental handicap is they can't disobey god's made some real ringers in this world if you've ever taken a look at some of god's creations according to world view they can't worship other gods no have you you know this they keep saying like people are extremely mentally handicapped right right so but what i'm saying is that like i said yes they can't do all those things no they can't do things that you would be sinful how old does a child have to be before they can they lie i'm talking about mentally handicapped people can we keep talking about that for just a second sure mentally handicapped people i i i know people with down syndrome i know people that have mental handicaps and they lie they feel guilt well not i'm what i'm saying is not all mentally handicapped people are able to do that i'm saying there are people who are not physically able to commit the sins that you would think you consider sin how are they not physically able do they not think they have extreme brain damage yeah so they're not able to think yes then i i would i would assume this is i mean with the same age you honestly think these people don't exist or something like yeah actually this is kind of like a surprise like you're like really no but i'm saying people that don't like if there are people that don't have the mental capacity to commit sin um which i'm not 100 percent sure that that's accurate um okay all right because you're making you're making an assertion here that there are people who don't sin and that's not an assertion that you can empirically make are you seriously you don't think that there are people that have or have literally almost have no brain function from early ages i mean you would have to demonstrate that they don't have the capability to lie to think of a lie to not all here's what i'll tell you literally will do yourself the favor when you don't just debate just go online and look at uh like crippling diseases in mind things that people will have yet children i have a friend of mine actually can't be the name it actually the disease has a number it doesn't even have a name because it's so damn rare it's a genetic disease basically and the person's never going to have the mentality of a more than a one and a half to two year old right but what i'm saying is you you're making an assertion that they have they're not going to be able to commit their sins what sin are they going to be able to commit uh hate anger they don't have that they don't have they don't have the capacity to hate that's a complicated thing from saying you're making an assertion that you don't know you don't know the capacity i know literally you only you can only make an assertion based on the expression go check out some medical books when you're done with this well i'm not even going to debate this this is so very clear that there are people that do not have medical uh mental capacity to be able to do these type of decisions but willkins i'll i'll let it go for right now since i don't want to go through and google a bunch of stuff but i think the audience could even look that up themselves also so uh but once again you're you're still situation so if it let's let's say say you grant that or you grant children so why are children off the hook children off the hook once the before it accounted before they have the capability to do those things so there is no sinful nature to pass on just it's sin doesn't come into the children till they commit sin correct okay so they don't have a sinful nature though so i never said that they have a problem nature i said they're born into a sinful world they're born into a world where no one seeks after god that everyone seeks after their own self interest and therefore what's told the private you were told the gravity yeah explain total their gravity again so total the gravity asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin every person is enslaved to sin people are not by nature inclined to love god but rather to serve their own interests which is to reject the rule of god so they are not inclined which is a sin their very nature is to not love god which is to sin from once they're once immediately from their born you're contradicting yourself again no but you have to it's once you commit that act and everyone commits that act that's why it's total yeah right so say so you have a fetus who dies in the womb do i feel that they that god doesn't show mercy to that soul i believe that he does i think like i said earlier that there is definitely definitely a theology of the age of accountability what we don't know what does it make a difference though i mean what's it make a difference how old they are though in your opinion is he just chicks and chooses who it is it isn't by what they do what does the age have to do anything whether it's could be saved or not but you are you're judged on your on what you've done no no it isn't you it's before you're even born he chooses who's going to offer grace to he has chosen who he will choose grace to all have sinned we have all sinned one person isn't better than the analogy so he's not going to throw the lifejacket to the drowning babies you're just going to throw it to the people you decide to throw it to right you're making an emotional appeal by using babies as an example well i mean it's people i could use little girls or people it should be just as bad to you i have to use children because at least that sometimes gets through the fee why is it children worse than an adult sin is seen in the eyes of god i i know there's no emotional component to god's choice it's meritless i know you're adding things on to the theology that aren't there yeah i know it's just literally just meaning meaning minding no it's just you're using an emotional appeal to the audience in order to gain no no that's what happened he just picks you can't you've already told me you can't articulate what the criteria is there is no art criteria it's just so unconditional where does it say he just picks them it's there's several verses in the bible like it's the one i made there aren't any good ones yes the romans all romans nine the entire chapter okay no right you can even say here's the example related what give me a scripture is related okay so the example in the very beginning of romans where he talks about uh esau and isek and that even before they were born he loved one and hated the other so he hates people before they're even born yeah the predestined he predestined some destruction and he hated that baby too right so he does hate babies sometimes right but what is the difference between a baby and a grown person he does hate babies sometimes right before they even entered the womb he hated one he hated yeah and he hated other people too right he hated other babies we're all babies at one point in time wow man you've got an incredible you're making emotional attachments as babies have a higher value than an adult human why do babies hold more value than an adult human it just what's strange to me is like i can think of reasons why i might hate him i don't like to hate people generally it's not my thing right but i could like someone might have wronged me or i might can come up with a hundred justifications of why i might be okay to hate it like an adult but i can't think of one justification why i would be okay to hate a baby and the fact that you can with a straight face you can literally tell me that god hates some babies like you've got a question what you believe and what your religion is if you are a god who sees all time at one time right past present and future all at once and you've created everything that exists what is the difference between a one-second-year-old human and a human that's lived for a hundred years what is the difference there is no difference they are equal in god's eyes right your god does not show partiality they're all filthy awful sinners who all deserve to be in eternal torment unless he shows some grace to you yeah but you're you are assigning more value to an infant over another over an adult human yeah i do because i do value infants over some adult humans i'm a moral subjectivist so i mean there's gonna be different reasons for that but you know what i don't do is hate babies so why is it if you're a moral subjectivist why is it any more immoral to hate babies than to hate a ten-year-old i mean if you really want me to explain to you why and are my moral like my moral opinions why it's not it that's not why it's a moral hate babies i can i guess first i believe in usually justification of some form right okay i couldn't find of any form of justification why i'd be morally correct to hate a baby right uh it's it usually when you hate you're also going to mean the babies or you show some type of cruelty maybe you could just express the hate in your heart and never act upon it um but that hurts me to have that type of hate especially some form of irrational hate towards a baby like somehow your god has how is that irrational there's no justification for it sure he chose to do it to hate him yes so the rational justification for a baby is god chose to do it sure that's what you just said you just said that you're a moral subjectivist correct okay i'm asking yes yeah no no yeah please i am a moral subject okay so our our our cultural our culture is more moral than other cultures like not objectively no okay so then what gives you the authority to to judge someone based on their moral values well as a human being well i have this ability to make have opinions make judgments so you can make an opinion yeah yeah that's what i'm doing is i'm expressing opinions to you uh now listen uh like i'm always like said happy if if you really do believe objective morals exist you can demonstrate that they exist and my argument would fall pieces and i would probably be a christian at this point so if you have a way to demonstrate these objective rules you claim exist please feel free and how would you like me to demonstrate any way you any way you'd like to do so that would be entertaining to me in the audience since we're in a debate well the only way that the way that i justify them myself is there's three ways that i justify my belief structure okay so one is a logical one to say that if there is a triomni god and he is he is how he expressed himself to us the big what if yeah so if he is god then they'll be a real then you're okay so what if that's not it's just saying a big what if right no that's that's only the first one right so you have there's this this type of god that exists and that god has said that this is what his characters are this is what he is right and then therefore he has given me a belief right in order to hope that i am one of his elect and the evidence of that belief is the things that have happened in my life to see that every bit of suffering that i have suffered has eventually turned to benefit me because i have faith in him right so there is a rationale there's a a a cause and a justification to my belief system diversity and it's fine let me listen you could have your own subjective like experience and why you believe in god and uh which is fine but it's just not a way you're going to be able to prove objective morality that way like it just like it's just your way of hoping and believing in something so i don't i don't know but you want me to super naturally show you i just wonder i mean it'd be better but it'd be better just for you just say i can't right instead of going through all that like not did instead of just saying no i can't do that it's not possible for me to do that you made me run through that with you but what's not possible i don't understand what your standard is for me to to i know to show that objective moral facts exists sure because you demonstrated that that was the whole point of the question yeah the scripture which is god showing himself to us that's the claim that wait the bible is the claim that's not the evidence like you get the evidence the bible is true but you're gonna have to presuppose the bible is true before we get to that point i'm not i'm not presupposing i'm saying that if that god exists and that bible is true if raptor jesus exists then that then raptor jesus is real what does that do to prove but that that's an objective moral facts exists so you want me to prove that god exists never mind men that's the only way that i can i can't get me to horse the water but you can't make you drink man you don't want to do it you don't want to do it uh i i have any questions for me i'll answer some questions i've asked you about 100 this here here's a perfect question how am i supposed to prove to you that objective morality exists without proving to you that the existence of god and use it and how am i supposed to suit how am i supposed to objectively prove the existence of god if i'm not a supernatural being myself no what i'm trying to get you to do is just admit you can't right because you can't do it and that would be i can't the audience yeah god's exactly it's all i want for the audience to see is that i'm not a person i'm debating can't yeah i know but you can't explain a lot of your positions here right you're just going on how can i not explain them you may not you may not like my answer but i can explain them no no no you can explain them but you can't rationalize them why can't i rationalize it well you rationality is subjective how can i not rationalize it what are you talking about rationality you said you're a moral subjectivist rational no that rationality is rationality not subjective then don't your moral views have to be rational defying rationality how are you it means reasoned right so it has to be reasonable right rational is reasonable right you have to have justification sure reasonable by what standard well to me reasonable by god standard i'm at yours your reason how would you know how would you know god standard through scripture yeah but how would you so okay so god wrote the bible how would you verify that scripture is true you you verify the scriptures to true based on god that god existing and what he did and how he works in the world that is so circular and begging is lasting it's not circular i'm not pointing because you have to understand i'm not saying that because the book says god exists god exists i'm saying if this god exists then this scripture must be true okay i get your what ifs i can't do anything with a what if if for after jesus is real then your religion is completely but it's not circular there's nothing you could do i don't believe in god because the bible says god is exactly what you believe god exists because okay how why do you believe god exists i believe god exists because he's revealed himself to me he's called me he's given me faith to believe if i if he had not called me i could not believe right that's that's calvary people believe all kinds of things that are that are falsely you believe you i'm sure you believe people believe in islam sure not to be believing in and the true god right there's a billion of them right of those people believe that they're believing the right god just like you sure but the difference these are really good debate the evidence from well yep i can only tell you what i know right so no i know but just telling me like like you have a feeling that god talked to you or communicated to you it's just not it's just not a debate argument it's just your feelings and opinions i don't believe in this necessarily feelings and opinions right my your your your opinions are feelings and opinions as well are they not why are your feelings and opinions anymore justified than mine no because your quote no no no it depends on what we're talking about right we're talking about movies or your favorite food or something like that yeah i'm not going to say mine are better than yours but if what you're trying to do is say hey uh you don't have to demonstrate this objective moral foundation right you just believe that it's the case i wouldn't believe if god didn't let me believe right that's just reinforces there's no way to fact check that right you just it's what there's a word for it i keep it a word but it's just your self-reinforcing something without any form of validation okay and if you want to live your life like that that's fine i don't what do you mean by validate how would i know why are you holding me into a higher standard than you hold yourself because morality isn't real in the same sense that you're saying god is real right morality is opinions i'm not going to hold you accountable to your opinions most of the time all right i might raise some ruckus and certain things but when you're saying here this is a fact about our universe a fact about our universe is god exists and god has given me information and when i ask you to prove it you're just like why should i have to prove my feelings well if they're just your feelings no i did i give my reasons for my justification you just rejected them you you appeal to yourself i didn't appeal to myself i appeal to god you appeal to god talking to you right yeah god gave me in order to believe in him and to in order to to to use scripture as the as the the knowledge of that god right everything that i need to know that god wants me to know about himself he's revealed to us in scripture and he uses the holy spirit to speak to me in order to give me belief in order for me to believe that about god it's a big guy you claim you have every step of that is a claim that you've not justified literally every step of that is just what i'm saying is what you're not telling me is what is sufficient justification attempt it anything well just attempt it when you when people dodge like trying to attempt to justify the things by continuing to ask what kind of justification what kind of evidence what kind of like this is a way of talking about the debate instead of dealing with the debate it's not it's not i've given you the reason i said god is my reason is my justification god talks to you i get it god i don't i can't do if you're not going to accept that justification i'm asking what other form of just if that's not acceptable to you what other form of justification is acceptable well i i don't know i'd have to i'd have to hear a good idea from you maybe i've been i've been changed in my opinions before about the bible so it's not there's my own personal experiences yeah right and then i said but the thing is we're in a debate man like it's your goal here is to like debate me like i get if you just want to come and tell me about your personal experience i appreciate it i should do appreciate christians you do that that's fine but like we're to debate to debate these ideas and just saying well this is just how i view them this is my personal experience like okay what i'm confused on what i'm confused on is if i given you my justifications for those and you immediately reject those saying that they're not reasonable then by what authority are you claiming that my justifications are not reasonable we can't demonstrate that it actually happened right it would be just how do you want me to let me explain it'd be like you'd have to find a way it's up to me to have to sit there like the real you're asking a question that's not for me right that's up to you you're the one with the claim demonstrate what claim did i mean you claim that there is a god he gives you knowledge okay prove it i said if there is a god if that god exists does god give you knowledge well god gives me knowledge through scripture okay demonstrate it please through scripture now no it's not oh it's through scripture how do we know scripture is real well how do i know that the scripture is god's work how do you know that you don't you have hope you have belief you do you just you have faith you just hope that the book is true yes this debate's over man i mean if that's really if it's just you hope the debate the book is true and then you ride you and then it's feelings my god how why am i being held to a higher standard than you if you have no belief right and i have belief i don't know man how am i making an assertion of a of a fact i don't just believe books just to believe in them and have faith in them without any reason to believe in it like i don't do that i mean you feel free to think whatever about me but i have a reason like i don't have a god who hates children i don't believe that like i have that faith in a book to understand and believe god like i don't understand why you're stuck what what a the age of a human being has to do with whether they are an elect or not elect whether they are predestined or not predestined yeah but it's well you're appealing to emotion well there he's predestining children basically to hell we were all children once skyler yeah well i mean we could say anybody that's fine anybody he tortures anybody like i said if i can't like all you're gonna do is tell me it's moral if i say if i show you examples in the bible of god ordering men to take women as plunder you're just gonna say that's moral right i can show you instances of god condoning slavery you're just gonna say that's moral right if slavery and taking women as plunder is moral to you i don't want a part of it man it's just not if you're looking at it from a humanistic point of view correct how could i look at anything not through a humanistic because if the main if the main point of if the main point of life is just here and now the you know the 70 80 50 one year that we're here on this planet then there's weight to that but if eternity is the main point of view then what does it matter if you're if you're a slave or if you're if something bad happens to you or any of that what is that you miss you're missing the point you're missing the point that god ordains these things not the point of what does it matter to you the person the victim in the situation it's the idea that your god who is all loving and caring i guess not all loving he doesn't love some children um but i guess he's sometimes loving sometimes caring god does sometimes he's all those things all at one time right you have to understand it how can he be loving and just if there is not punishment for the action uh so in 1st Samuel 15 you remember that story with the Amalekites what was the reason for that they sinned against god what when was it was those people or the generations before them all of them they worshipped other gods yeah so but the babies didn't right the babies did how would a baby worship another god they were lived in a culture in a society that worshipped other gods you don't think that that baby five years later would have worshipped the same god i have three children okay when they were one years old could they worship god six say six months old children grow up to exactly as their parents do my god will now we switched it now you're like oh well but they'll grow up and do it is the justification there is nowhere in scripture that said that those infants before they worship that other god were sent to eternal damnation says that their life on earth was ended it's it's this life here on earth isn't important in eternity is important then could that not also be mercy well how about is it is what it let me ask you this question what did it ever be well no you're gonna say it's moral so basically god has an option right because in that story if you recall he sends Israelites into a city right to kill everybody with the swords so he commands these Israelites to cap the slice open babies right don't you slice them open or to kill them to kill them that's how you kill them with swords it tells you the story this is like are you and what is your purpose for using that particular language that's not in the text because that's what no that is it it killed them with the sword that's what it says right but doesn't say slice them open what his swords do you could stab them puncture them right you're still gonna slice their skin open if you stab them anyways but the fact that you're making a big deal there's a difference between a slice and a puncture using specific words to garner a certain amount of emotional response from the audience brother it doesn't matter if I use slicing or choking a baby to death and so why not just say what the text says well kill them by the sword sword i'll just i'll i'll use it more friendly in fact that you get upset about my wording but not about the babies that i'm not upset with your wording i just know why you're actually taking your you're taking interest with that over the content of the story but let me just let me ask you using that specific language to garner a certain emotional response from the audience as if killing babies isn't that enough my man all right what is the physical death matter in the face of eternity would it be okay have you ever served in military give it any military service yeah okay if you're if you're if you're personally in command or do you go in and execute a bunch of women and children would that be a moral it would depend on the reason why so there are situations now in our world today where it'd be if you with a gun could run into a village and it would be moral to execute women and children it would be really hard for me to do that but it would depend on the reason why jesus okay what give me a reason why it would be moral because god commanded it to happen well i what i want to ask you is why do you play so much emphasis on a physical death if eternity is the point why is there an emphasis on physical death right according to scripture to die is gain it's not even about the death necessarily too it's about the human suffering that he causes he makes human beings kill babies right i'm sure you know about how awful ptsd can be as someone that was in the military right now imagine your god went and said hey you go slice open and kill these children kill these babies right do you think that would sound like something god would tell you to do it would depend on how god told me to do of course jesus christ you are a fucking monster i'm not a monster okay so now we're going to go with ad hominem attacks i mean it's just i'll tell you the truth bro it just gets exhausting sometimes like to hear like people or calvars talk about their god in such a way that is so monstrous that i physically feel exhausted for i feel what if that god exists why is there an emphasis on this life what what importance does this physical it doesn't nothing matter it doesn't matter because if this is what importance does human suffering matter if he chooses for me to get saved i mean i can i hope that he's ironic well i mean it doesn't we won't know what criteria because you have to understand that from a calvinist's point of view there is no moral high ground for me right i'm not here to judge anyone i have no moral authority to judge anyone i am no better than any other person that walks around the face of the earth some are chosen some are not that's and it's by god's own mercy that he chooses some for glory and others for destruction that's the way that he's chosen to do things to show how powerful he is he chooses some people to suffer an eternal format that's what you just said that is what he said yes he makes some people suffer for all eternity sounds like a hitler and if an all-knowing and all powerful sounds like something hitler stowler hitler would do stuff like that right you would agree so are you using those particular characters that are again other emotional responsive to the audience well no i just want to but i want to point out something that if hitler could commit that same action he probably would right if he could have put jewish people in a place of eternal torment he probably is hitler all-knowing i don't know what the all-knowing how that fixes anything or makes it any better because if you know the reason the why something has to be done and necessarily you don't if i know the reason if i'm all-knowing all omnipotent and omnipresent and i know why this must be done and you don't then who are you to judge me i know by what why you say that's to be done because everybody needs to judge it right but man hey it's still a deserving of judgment yeah you still lollipop at ten years old fucking eternal torment for you right oh you lie eternal torment for you it's not the stealing of the it's not the stealing of the right god you raised you raised you were raised in islam you didn't know what you got to believe in you believe in a face of false paving god therefore you deserve a torn torment god you guys it's not it's not about a little monster it's not about stealing a lollipop it's about rejecting an omnipro if that god exists would that not be a extremely sourcing thing to do no check that god no god could literally first of all god creates created the system in which the repercussions exist here right so any repercussion that is an existence is because that's the way god set it up god could have made it to where people just broke their thumbs right after like as the penalty for the sin in the garden of eden he could set it up any way he wants he set it up in a way that he hates children and that he creates a world where like hitler exists off to show people how glory how powerful he is because he had done it in a different way would you would you still have rejected him if god was actually a loving god the kind of let me tell you something you count this have actually given me something i could appreciate because normal evangelical Christianity seems so much better to me now right because at least then i'm like this god isn't setting us up to fail right this god's actually cares about me he didn't set you to fail you fail we all failed no i didn't do anything you haven't lied why he's not a sin proved lying is a sin are you having born false witness you haven't you haven't proved lying is someone in your heart well wait is so can god lie god cannot lie why because he's god no that that's that's if you're omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent how are you capable of lying by not telling the truth but if you know all if you know everything knowing the future doesn't mean you can't tell a lot it's not the future it's knowing the past present and future all at one time that doesn't that doesn't stop you from being able to lie and what purpose would you have to lie if you're that god it's a goalpost move i want to point out i i handled your objection there and now we're moving you asked me if god could lie and i said no and now i've asked you how can god lie and that's not a movement it's physically it's not logically impossible you have to show me the mechanism why it's logically possible that god can't lie because he knows everything how does that stop you from lying knowing everything how does that stop you from lying and he's all powerful there is no one that he i was being all powerful stop you from being a lot why do people lie skyline well how does being all powerful stop you from lying just means that he has the power if god is capable of lying he does he have the ability to lie no because if he said something it would be the truth if your omnipotent so he can't lie no he's incapable of lying because he's omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent well then why did he say lying in the bible he says lying spirits in the bible is this another example of him not doing it and him sending somebody else to do it lying spirits would be the fallen angels right yeah he said this is he also created the mislead right and he has ordained for that those beings to exist and they work in accordance to his will yes just like everybody else yes so god ordained like these angels to come down like like the nephron but god cannot lie himself if god says the sky is purple the sky is purple you you can't articulate why you can't lie you're just saying you can't lie it's impossible if you are omniscient omnipotent you have not explained why it's a lie you can say that over and over but you have not explained why because i've knowing everything doesn't stop you from lying being all powerful doesn't stop you from lying what was the third one omnipresent everywhere i don't know how that would stop you from lying so what is it about those omnipotent and omniscient and you were to say the sky is purple what would happen the sky would become purple so therefore are you lying well i'm sorry you're saying that what i'm sure god has the ability to bring things to existence and have a physical voice like to say something if you want to say something you're saying that like whatever he says says physically has to come into know that's not how that works man yes that's exactly how that works how is that not how that works god speaks all things into existence okay like pornography yes and child porn that happens because god ordained it to happen yes i'm not going to deny the sovereignty of god hey man it's just he's got a creative mind is all said i don't know if you've been on some of these websites but the person who created i don't why would i ever even think about going there you're gonna tell me you don't beat you meet my man come on bro i don't know have i lost it yes do i do a child porn you say absolutely not no no no if if this channel is not here tomorrow folks want to know uh now you know why if modern day that's an absolutely ridiculous insinuation what i'm saying is you would believe me hold on once i go i want to give a quick reminder i'm sure you masturbate we're going to go into the q and a shortly and so thanks for your questions folks we've got a little bit yet we we do have a little time before we do that but do want to remind you have a couple things one our guests are linked in the description and that includes if you're listening via podcast so modern day debate is available via podcast and we also include our guest links in the description box for that podcast or episode and so with that we'll jump back into open conversation before going to that q and a so god's creative it's all i'm saying god has a creative mind you're making ridiculous assertions that you can't justify he ordained it he ordained it you told me that he ordained all this god ordained and i didn't deny that he didn't ordain it every but every adult video every act of child abuse god planned it out in every detail according to your world view no that is not every detail he ordained it to happen and the person who did it created it in every detail that person will be judged based on their actions for that every detail but they can't horrible sin yeah but they can't go against what was ordained if god ordained them to commit that act they can't go against it they were forced like a computer program or programs a robot they're just doing what god ordained what are they being punished if you're just doing what the neurons in your brain tell you how are you accountable for your actions well this is a great you know let's move the goalpost it's not a move the goalpost it's an analogous statement this is what is my worldview here has nothing to do with what we're dealing with with your worldview right okay so my worldview is able to have not have a certain thing but your worldview can have the exact same thing but yes because we don't have the same principles yes it's exactly right because one you're saying god plans out like he ordains right right you're saying this all loving saying god is sovereign over everything it has ordained everything and all things work in accordance to his will is what i'm saying like concentration camps he ordained concentration camps yep yes okay well you're probably going to q&a man this is i don't even want to yeah i just can i ask you why you feel it necessaries instead of to debate the the issues of the matter to go to appeal to uh uh exuberant hypotheticals that are based on emotional claims not hypothetical what's actually what you believe we better understand why we keep talking about the topic versus throwing out their lewd comments and insinuating people visiting child pornography sites well i didn't say you visit child you said you i'm sure you've visited those no i was talking about jerking off i'm saying i'm sure you jerk off still and i'm sure that was after the fact no i was not if that's what it came up i was not trying to elude that you do something like that i apologize if that's what came out that was definitely that was the sequence of your comments if you don't if you don't i'll accept your apology if that's not what you intended but that was a sequence of your comments my attention you mentioned child pornography instead i'm sure you've gone and seen some of those things man no i was talking about porno is what i was talking about anyways i was talking about i and how god is playing those things out too he's just playing it all out every snuff film everything you imagine he's planned out every child kidnapping he planned out in detail right so he ordained it your god right so how's a child kidnapping more heinous than an adult kid kidnapping i mean they're not the same in your world do you exactly so why are you placing emphasis this doesn't make you sound good like pointing out that i'm putting but you're not arguing with any you're not arguing with any logical matter you're using hyperbole look can i explain why i don't miss so one of the reasons i do these debates especially calvinists is to expose what you gotta believe and to show people in the world what you guys believe and this is why i do it so don't you never ask me what i believe oh yeah i've we've heard it we've talked about it all these times and you've melt it people will watch the show we'll get to hear you ask me pointed questions right loaded questions in order to gain a certain response that i can't deny based on my theological worldview you throw out loaded questions that that you don't allow me to answer you don't allow me to express the difference in the positive aspects of calvinism for the fact like for the fact that reform theologians were the first ones to abolish slavery they were never for human slavery they were against all kinds of atrocities carried out by the catholic church and other denominations that don't hold the sovereignty of god is as as as as sola yeah people are way better than the god that's shrugged the bible all 100 percent and you said that calvinism was so disgusting that it makes other forms of christianity look better than the others when it was those other forms of christianity that were performing chateau slavery in the united states the catholic church was going and and and going on crusades into the middle east and and creating all types of heinous acts all the way up until now there were a lot of calvinists in the south i don't know if you're aware of this it was quite a heavy population of calvinism in the south where a lot of these slaves uh no they were excommunicated from the reform theological worldview if you actually go back and read like alexander mcleod's 1802 slavery unjustifiable and all of those things you were not as a as a covenantor or a puritan you were not allowed to even take communion which means you can't be friends with anyone who owns slaves so your claim is out fault is outright false well i mean in the bible i mean god should have told you you could take women as plunder and then you could force them to marry you so i mean god supports slavery and women being bought and sold what do you mean by support condoms allows it tells you how allows it to happen i will accept well no and and it creates a system of it tells you the rules and how and how you're going to do it right like you know it tells you where you about well about slaves like where you could buy them and who you could buy and stuff right so in a world that that the israelites created for themselves right having a king right which god did not want them to do but he allowed them to do that and he placed rules around it right he also allowed them to partake in the culturally common practice of their culture and he put rules around it no he told you where you could buy your slaves from your child slaves from he put rules around it yes yeah he told you when you say rules around it he said hey my rule is you can buy child slaves from this place that's what you mean by made rules about it that's not what the text says what you just said then it gets 25 versus 44 to 46 absolutely does or it lays out the difference between indentured servitude for the jews and then it talks about where you're to buy your foreign slaves which is from the nations around you and this includes child slaves and the difference is you're not to treat them with rigor uh uh you are awesome well you are sorry you're not to treat the jews with rigor these people you could treat with rigor um you could also no you're not allowed to harm anyone under the law well i'm sorry my friend if you want to go to leviticus 25 versus 44 to 46 it's right there it never says you could beat your slaves it's that's not what i'm talking about i'm talking about owning people it's harming them but how's owning owning someone moral you have you don't know it's it's not a moral under your worldview if you treat them like like an adopted child how is that immoral it's not what the scripture describes it doesn't describe mistreating it it says yes it actually says that you can treat them with rigor opposed to the israelites who are your brethren who you can't treat like this it says you can rule over them ruthlessly i mean all you do is go with the human translation of this right uh and then also that and you could take the children of your slaves keep them for life and pass them on to your children as permanent inheritance okay and how is that immoral if you're treating them justly you're asking how it's a moral to keep somebody for life in that culture at that time how was it immoral so i'm sorry morality is relative to culture is that what you're saying now you're just a moral subjectivist well no no i'm asking we're talking about the bible dude your beliefs you're a you're saying it's immoral and yeah you're a moral subject you're contradicting yourself you're you're not you're no actually i didn't say it was immoral i never used those words i just asked you did no no what did i say what did i say slavery is immoral if you ask me i'll rewind the tape it's not there because i've done this a hundred so it is it is moral for them to do that in their culture no no no well now that you've asked me i'll answer it but the point was of those questions that i was asking you in their culture was it immoral so oh listen though see what you're doing is now saying it's relative morality is relative i agree it's relative to the culture no it's objective because god allowed them to do that in that manner so it rules around it yes it was objectively moral to take children as slaves and keep them permanently in the same way that it was subjectively moral for them to do it in that time okay how is that a contradiction listen i'm just once again this is just your logic you don't hold yourself to your own standard and support slavery women or plunder name is name a culture that didn't support slavery in those times that that's a great argument let me let me go to other cultures around because that will make what you're saying no name one culture that did not support slavery in those times they all it was a slave time i don't know what you're okay so then how is it immoral you're the one that made the the assertion that it was immoral are you're arguing moral relativism you're not a moral relativist it's moral relative for you you have to hold that rule you cannot call something i'm sorry was the name of this debate stylers morality and immoral realism or was it on the bible the bible god and Calvinism stop seems like what's happening is like you're you're stuck it seems like you're making assertions that you yourself don't hold in order to to to gaslight i didn't say it was immoral what i'm trying to do is just get the audience to see you think it's moral that's all i'm doing so do you no i don't i think it's immoral to own children slaves now in your time right now yes i agree with you well i can only talk about my moral position of a moral subjectess all right we agree but you agree that child slaves are moral are immoral well then why do you got to order people and tell them they could have them because he ordered or he ordained them to do that at that time at that time it was objective well yeah i get it i get it we just god whatever god says is right whatever god doesn't time is right you can do whatever he wants this is is that not true if that god exists is that not logical the logical position to take it would be illogical to say that an omniscient omnipresent omniscient omnipotent god cannot do whatever he likes listen i guess it would be absolute absurdity yeah i mean if he's real you can do it i'm making logical armaments and you're using you're you're performing straw men out there you're making them chopping them down with an imaginary sword there's nothing you can demonstrate no these things you can demonstrate right and in the end like i mean this is i galvanists you guys just believe your god can do the most monstrous stuff ever so but why is it monstrous you're making an assertion that it's monstrous listen you feel free to disagree that hating children is monstrous right feel free to disagree with that i just not how i get down right i'm a moral subject to this i will judge you man but if you want to say god's that you're judging god you just said it was monstrous that's a judgment oh oh yeah yeah that that's a judgment yeah i'm making a judgment he's an asshole if he's actually real for doing that real asshole okay that's okay you can have that you can have that judgment yeah well i mean you don't upset me you're i don't i don't have i listen to you i know i won't because your opinion of god is he can do no wrong tells people they can own slaves age children executing babies if you if that's what you like i have a question for you skyline i don't want no part of i have a question for you skyline yeah how can an omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent god do something real you tell me how logically that can happen see if you were this is let me explain this if you don't believe god caused these things you don't have a problem but you believe god ordained them right but how's that well i mean because these things that you would i would i would imagine they're not answering your questions yes i'm trying to explain let's know what i'm saying here the things that you would call moral the things that you would call moral or immoral let's see the things you would call immoral god does that's a contradiction i'm sorry you would you would the things that god does you would call the moral any normal person would call it a moral let me give you an example any normal person that said someone drowned a baby they call that a moral if someone said hey there was a person in charge to execute a baby they would call that a moral what happens when i'm dealing with you and Calvinist is you guys just say they're moral so there's nothing for me to argue with right you're just saying oh yeah it's moral when god ordains these things okay but that's Calvinism folks that's all i'm doing here you're not okay you didn't answer my question i asked how is it logically possible for an omnipresent omnipotent and omniscient god to do anything wrong that's what i'm saying he wouldn't do these things that are described in the bible right the problem is you believe the things in the bible and you're trying to fix a contradiction right and all loving god there's no contradiction will and all loving god wouldn't execute babies it wouldn't cause so much suffering that's not all loving it's not just either there's no justice there you can call it justice but you're not going to be able to actually justify that so yes i can first of all i never said that those babies i'm just saying god is justified i never said that those infants went to hell have i uh but you still i hurt them physically we're violent to them okay and what is physical suffering here on earth what is physical suffering here on earth matter to tell people what does it matter to me what does it matter to eternity you're putting emphasis on something that's not god that it's not that god right using human rationale to judge an omnipotent omnipresent omnipotent god it's okay i mean feel free to think it's moral we got to do all those things i would say that it is a logical fallacy to assume that an omniscient omnipotent omnipresent god could do anything wrong that is a fallacy that is a logical fallacy well the great thing that is an illogical unrational great then it is moral to take women and children as one that is a moral act if god commands it no no no just the act of it it's not whether god commands it because i'm sorry so what makes something moral is what god says it's not his being it is everything it is his person you have to understand that you're saying this all loving god he's not all loving sometimes and all justifications just to sometimes what makes something moral the author of the morality okay how does he make it moral right you're the author of your morality sure how does he make it moral because he authors that morality so he just writes it so he could write he could literally write child torture is moral and it would be moral that's not something he's chosen to write no but he could it wouldn't be logically impossible for him i mean he's already written that adults will execute children he's he's written that he would drown babies so it's not logically impossible it's already been shown that it's a logical fallacy to say if god is omnipotent could he make a box so small that he couldn't fit himself into it or so it's not at all what i was talking about yeah that you're giving that type of example that god has already chosen he's or if you want to judge him judge him on what he what's already there why are you trying to make hypotheticals that aren't okay you don't have to relate it to the conversation what's the point in that well why are we arguing about hypotheticals that don't exist why not just talk about the things that are actually there because you can't demonstrate any of your claims are actually the case that's the reason but i have asked i've demonstrated how i like it is your opinion it's my belief yeah i know you were convinced to god has some kind of communication with you that's just nothing for a debate or a conversation and then i asked you how you'd like me to demonstrate that and you wouldn't give me an example so i don't have to i'm not your life coach man it's not up to me to sit there and coach you on how to debate why i'm not here to get life advice from this guy well that's what sounds like you're asking hey skyler can you tell me how to debate against you and what your point is because i don't have an answer for it that's what it sounds like i had an answer you rejected my answer your answer was i feel this way that was part of my answer to the same here muslim could do the same thing and then point to their text just like you point to their text your text i could give you a reason why i think that christianity is is the true way and you know there's aren't it's not exactly see you're not even letting me go into those other points so i don't understand what you want me to do i think the problem is i'm so turned off by your whole theology structure that you're willing to say but you haven't even let me talk about it you just keep throwing out hypothetical situations with full loaded questions whatever you want man go ahead i'm here i'll answer any question you have on me good um yeah i i i i don't know what question to ask because you won't answer any so so go ahead any answer question okay i'll ask the same question again okay how is it logical how can yeah an omnipresent omnipresent omnipresent omniscient omnipotent god do anything wrong the answer is they can't okay thank you problem that we're dealing with is that the things that we're pointing are out are immoral and yet god does them how are they immoral contradiction to whom by his own standard because morality by god standard how is god how can god be immoral you just explained that you could not be immoral you just you just you just agree the problem is you don't understand what i'm saying to you i do understand you i'm saying that you're trying to still man my argument you your argument is that you feel that god is immoral by his own standard oh no no that's no try it again okay well then what is your argument okay let's try this is it immoral to execute babies that's not i'm asking what's your argument watch i'm going to show you the contradiction real quick is it immoral to execute babies not it depends what what okay depends on what and whether it was ordered by a triomni god or whether it was done out of the your own enjoyment okay let's just say is there any situation where it's not god that it's moral no no so it's only moral when it's god yes okay and what makes it immoral for someone to execute a baby because god has not allowed it god has said god shall not kill wait a minute wait a minute he has allowed it for himself for himself so it's basically just moral for selfish reasons yeah he's the author of morality you've already you've already accepted the fact that that the triomni god cannot be cannot do anything wrong did you not agree to that no what what i'm saying is you have no foundation for morality that makes sense now at this point i do god you can't you can't explain why so basically god can do immoral actions no if it's immoral to execute a baby no and it's immoral when god does it's not absolutely moral it's just immoral sometimes it's more that's relative to the situation you believe in moral relativism no it's immoral you don't know how absolute morality works no man you should really do some philosophies god is not judged by human morality that doesn't make anything that doesn't do anything to what i was just saying it does it's not a contradiction you just you just agreed are morals absolute are morals absolute or they not absolute the morals that come from the triomni god or absolute all of them yes okay so it would never be moral to um well if it's a more let's say so let's say what makes it immoral for me to lie because god said thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor okay now but but it's also rooted in him so what is it about his nature that would make it immoral for me to lie because god is truth okay so he can't lie no we've already he can lie can he can he can he can he can he send lying spirits he can ordain lying spirits to do the will that he that to do things according to his will so he can he can have people commit simple acts he can ordain them yes yeah he can so he can ordain someone to commit a simple act and they have to do it they can't go against his ordination they willingly and gladly participate but they willingly and gladly participate because he ordained that they would willingly and gladly participate correct so he basically programmed him like a robot he created them yes yeah okay it's capitalism or robots we are going to go into the q&a folks and so thanks so much for all of your questions and we're going to jump into this want to let you know folks our guests are linked in the description and that includes if you're listening via podcast so first one thanks so much spider the ateo thanks for your super stick appreciate your support and experiments in prebiotic chemistry good to see you again says to william the big issue is how do we know that the people who wrote scripture weren't just making stuff up how you know is that because the triumni god exists and he gives belief to us and gives and shows us his truth through scripture right if the triumni god exists the scriptures cannot be false gotcha and thank you very much for your question this one coming in from sigma any says will do you think faith can be misused as a means of psychological manipulation by quote unquote incorrect religions by incorrect ones absolutely yes gotcha and steven steen says god elected skylark we're just waiting for skylark to figure that out i'm hoping the uh i'm hoping it's like next tuesday i figured out i've got you know i got some plans earlier in the week and i don't want to know god's real until like until afterwards so i don't feel so guilty about i hope so too so next up grimlock thanks for your question said a supreme being needs the acceptance of lesser beings will no absolutely no needs that glory man that's what he's talking about means that glory he glorified himself we don't glorify him that sounds like masturbation next up band for life says if we were quote born without sin we couldn't have fallen quote unquote sinless beings don't sin we were born into a world full of sin slaves to sin and therefore we do not seek our own justification we don't seek we seek only our own interests and therefore we sin he's talking about adam and eve i think they were talking about adam and eve you were talking about everybody else was that was it i didn't hear adam and eve yeah he was saying the first people that was the point was that they would i see first people i just heard people we are i didn't hear first yeah adam but the first people that were born didn't weren't born with sin they were born without sin they were born perfect or they were created perfect they were without sin adam and eve were without sin at creation so they god could make a world where no one a world where there's there's no sin base he did he did and then he could he did and then he chose to make a world where the thing that is very opposed to his nature he ordained that adam and eve would sin yeah it's brilliant gotcha this one coming in from do appreciate your question d max says my challenge to the christian will is to show us the age of accountability in scripture with any sort of verse in chapter and verse and what is the age there is no scripture and verse but there is a theological understanding if you go to the teachings of jesus and where he says you know that the innocent he talks about the innocence of of a child the faith of a child right so children have you know it there is no you know actual verse number that you can go to just like that the the trinity itself there are theological principles even the word elect is not in scripture but it's a theological um i guess you could say structure that's based on a multitude of scripture branded our child could sin does that mean that they go to hell though like so if a five-year-old lies if they now commit it sin towards the worthy of hell if they're not elect yeah brandon our children do go to hell good lord you're monstrous i'm sorry sell the fucking monster give you a chance to respond will and then we'll go ahead and question i don't understand how i'm monstrous for something that i triumph chose to do this one coming in we have a lot of questions guys i hate to do it but we do brandon our lean says if god is just and loving then why is he more obsessed with making an example out of people and sending them to hell than just saving them he's not more obsessed he he shows no partiality he's not more concerned with the the non or pre-adept predestined than he is with the predestined gotcha and good day the user says how free are we if we are born stained by the inheritance of sin for actions we did not take nor could intervene in and then ordered to be made well i i don't believe in necessarily i guess you could say a libertarian principle of free will right i believe in consensual will gotcha and this one coming in for skylar an old friend of yours skylar you guys you guys you guys go way back sj thomason throws her hat into the ring she says skylar our humans compelled to tell the truth if so we have an objective duty which impelled the time i don't know i think i think we obligate ourselves to tell the truth sometimes i think it could be valuable to you and i think it sometimes it could be valuable to lie in certain situations uh so i don't know i don't know does gen sigma n he says why do the non-elect receive any faith at all if god already knows they won't make ultimate use of it i don't necessarily understand what she means by why did the non-elect receive any faith at all they they don't they don't receive saving faith they have common grace which is the grace that god that's you know he allows you to live he allows you to eat he allows you to be happy and to raise children and and and and have love and and joy but he doesn't give he only gives saving faith to the elect that joe marv demarshan says for will without the bible how do you know that the specific christian god revealed himself to you but the bible has nothing to do with it it's the fact that the triumni god exists that the bible becomes true it's only if the triumni god does not exist that the bible becomes false this one coming in from band for life says if adam and eve were created sinless quote unquote they would not have been able to sin they didn't know it was quote unquote wrong and shouldn't have been judged yeah they would have been judged if they hadn't god specifically said do you can eat from anything else do not eat from this tree and then the serpent came and tempted them and said that god does not want you to be like him he does not want you to know the the truth of what is good and evil right and wrong knowledge and she took and she defied god's command and she ate and therefore she sinned well god or didn't know that don't act like god didn't cause that so it's so way getting out of answering the question but we'll let the audience decide we'll give you a chance to respond if you'd like will the question was originally she willingly chose to do that it's regarded as god ordained it yes he ordained everything everything works and she will she will something because he made her will it he called he ordained her will right so like when you say oh well she deserves punishment i don't understand where's the justice she's just experiencing what god has ordained she can't go against it she cannot stop his will literally she's doing things exactly the way god wanted it and then he punishes her for doing the same thing that god wanted to do this is such backwards hypocrisy give you a chance to respond will and then we do have to go to the next question yeah i mean she chose to do it still it doesn't matter if god ordained her or not she still chose to participate she should if he fucking ordained it or yes are actually we want to ask you to attack the arguments rather than the people and if the uh if the opponent if the people i guess we'll keep it fair that if they explicitly attack you as once in a great while we'll have a guest do that you can you can attack them back who can blame you for that i'm not i'm not saying you ought to but i am saying that uh otherwise though we do always want to ask that you would keep uh try and that's something we want to stop to is we do want to stop any guests from doing that is we are looking to lift the standard in terms of 99 percent of you do great at it attacking the argument instead of the person and i appreciate that 99 percent of you and so thanks so much for that rodent lat no last name says if god is talking to you how do you differentiate that from schizophrenia if the bible is god's word why is it so full of errors well the reason why it's not like i hear an audible voice in my brain talking to me um i i i the holy spirit speaks to me through scripture so i read the scripture and he reveals truth to me in those scriptures and that's how i know it's true because the things that are false contradict scripture got you on this one coming in from i'm sorry wilson says skyler looking af is that the new slang you guys what does that mean next up i'm sorry wilson also says can we all appreciate beardless thinner skyler you look great skyler i think you're on mute i said we're trying that we're trying a little some different things trying to a new healthier mustache skyler i just hate the night to shave i hate i gotta get the shade and whatever day very beautiful and sigma and he says why did god forget to revoke his instructions in the bible condoning slavery parentheses compared to the other old laws that jesus fulfilled was it righteous indifference um i first of all i don't believe that he condoned it he'll he he ordains and allowed it to happen he didn't say this is good go out and do that gotcha yeah and this one this question coming in from band for life says william are you suggesting that without your god belief you would not have learned and grown from your suffering no through common grace i totally could have grown through my suffering because that's the common grace that god gives all humans gotcha and i'm sorry wilson in reference to skyler fiction in his beautiful beautiful mustache says jim majors you've got some competition for best mustache oh boy this mustache is pretty tight have you ever teamed with jim majors that would be a good tag team the kind of the the duo the mustache duo let's be fun i'd do that these are all my show a couple times but yeah no i absolutely i would love to be honest you got it chris gammon says william babies punished because their parents believe in another god why would you worship this god that's sick man come on well first of all i don't think that god god shows no partiality so there's no difference between an adult human and an infant human in his eyes all have you know value to him they're all made in his image there's no partiality shown and for some he chose for glory and and mercy and others he chose for destruction and that was his choice gosh there's no more emphasis on a baby than it's no more different what's the i don't understand the difference between killing a baby and killing an adult it's still killing a person it's because at least the at least with an adult you could find some justification will like if if it's some guy who's molested a bunch of kids i can kill him i don't care right so innocent baby will you're saying it's perfectly moral for god just to ordain their torture and death you sound like a month it just sounds very chance to respond well and then we'll go to the next one well no my my point is is that there's nowhere in scripture that if there is a if there happens to be a theology of of an age of accountability then there's nothing in scripture that says that those infants if they were infants that had not let's just assume let's play the logic game that they had not sinned against god we're going to burn uh in hellfire for eternity there's nowhere that that says that so if he were if it ended up in hell if he allows them to to go to eternity freely then that's mercy that is not um uh a bad thing at all when four and five adults burn in hell man well you got a really the other question your beliefs that give you a chance to respond well then we do have to go to the next one i i don't have the question my beliefs matthew steel says william if god is pure goodness and can only do good according to his nature how can anything be evil as in against his will and design well nothing could be evil against his will and design right his will and design is never evil god commits no evil i think there god isn't capable of committing evil i i think that they're trying to ask so for example like going back all the way to step one like if god is like morally he's perfectly good and can only do good how can let's say for example he creates satan who would eventually turn so i i think people in order to judge god like to pick one of his attributes and focus on that in order to find a contradiction but that's not what scripture says god is god is all of his attributes at all times so he's not one or today he's not good and tomorrow he's not just right today he's not love and tomorrow he's not jealousy he's all of those things at all times you can't separate one out gotcha this one has to be all of those things no ragnite wolf we must get to the next one says can william prove god is all knowing if he was not all knowing he would not be god that's a logical impossibility and oxt says will are your will are feelings a reliable pathway to truth if your belief in god is based on feelings and your morality is based on god your morality is subjective well i never said my faith was based on feelings i said my faith was based on hope right my faith is my belief is hope it's a feeling and it's the evidence of the things not seen matthew steele has a question for skyler oh juicy battle of the mustaches i think matthew do i remember you have a goatee no goatee i think says skyler why do you appeal to emotion so often i really appeal to emotion as much as i get right to the point of things right you know it it's weird because with non-calvinists this is much more effective right but with calvinists they just jump on the sword they just willing to be like yeah man god hates children and he does all these things and he picks some people you know to show how powerful he is and you know five-year-olds can burn in hell it's like yeah it doesn't matter it doesn't matter hey never mind go ahead cruise gamut says let's just say that i never confirmed that god hates children well if he sends six-year-olds to hell for lying a five-year-old i have a five-year-old my little girl's five-year-old the fact that you can think that she could lie and that she's worthy of hell it just ruined disturbing men chris gamut says william think hard on this is there really no command that god could give you that you wouldn't carry out is there no thing that god could do that is bad how we know that it's true or not is if the holy spirit were to give me a command to do this and then i weighed that against scripture and it never contradicted scripture right or if i had a Damascus road experience and god said do this that it could not be bad no it is a logical impossibility gotcha and thanks very much for your question sigma any who says will how do we differentiate godly from worldly worldly faith example beating someone of a different color because quote unquote god informed them of the superiority of their own skin color can we blame them for actions based on honest belief sure so you know direct hermeneutics of tests not adding thing to the text and taking all the text into account you would weigh that person's faith or their action or their thought against the text and if it violates that like for instance jesus saying you know the golden rule to love thy neighbor as thyself right to do what others as you would have them do unto you so if you would rather beat up somebody of a different race than you will that's obviously going against what jesus said so therefore it is a contradicts scripture so therefore it is human faith executing shelter and doesn't weirdly weirdly that you would think that that would do it but it doesn't it's a different covenant skylar i know you know same god soldier of science says did god lie when he told adam and eve they would die the day they ate from the tree of knowledge he didn't say they would die that day gotcha i'm sorry wilson says um problem of evil go will what's your response to the oh i guess maybe will the default to usually the uh classic or logical problem of evil what is your response the problem of evil is it is it is a a a prideful idolatry to the one and only triumny god that's what evil is got you and i'm sorry wilson's oh sorry ryosinski says new debate format james just beats up the debaters what does that mean okay next up by the way i mean skylar and william i both have i've heard no kung fu so i don't know what's gonna be but i'm sorry wilson says why would a kelvinist even debate you've already won or lost the debate long before you had the debate because gods mandate in other words you have no free will over it yes so because god has so shown me so much grace and love i am therefore i therefore desire to go and show that to other people and to talk about his gospel gotcha sigma any says will did you wear that beanie in preparation for being let's see okay just trollish but uh karag nightwolf says william thinks it's okay for god to allow slavery and genocide but isn't that special pleading can anyone else allow this and it's okay if you can explain to me how a triumny god could be special could be have a double standard then i would i would agree with you that it's special pleading but until you can show me logically how a triumny god is capable of a double standard then i can't agree with the fact that that special pleading gotcha and next up thanks for your question karag nightwolf says will every time you say quote if god can do this or that then it's true unquote that is a tautology it's circular because if god can't do that then you're wrong but i'm judging god based on what he is that his own description that he has that he has given to us right and so he says that he is an omnipresent omniscient omnipotent god and so therefore it's not circular reasoning milf's porch says jesus is suffering and dying on a cross would have an impact if he'd go to hell knowing he is going to heaven is just hypocrisy no one has the privilege like that oh i think they're saying like it's not enough because death for others is like you don't know that you're gonna you don't have certainty about going to heaven immediately after well sure well i mean the substitutionary settlement was that jesus went to hell right it's just that he defeated death in rose again and that's what saves us right it was him he died got he says right on the cross why have you forsaken me and then he went to hell he took the keys of death from right i mean that's what scripture says and then he conquered that in rose again so he did go to hell got you and this comes in from dean meadows thanks for your generous super chat dean appreciate it says and this is for will i think from another christian so to will if love must be a free choice and god predetermines you know parentheses calvinism who loves him and who doesn't love him how could he be all loving since he forces people to love him and hate him doesn't that undermine his all loving nature i don't understand what they mean by forcing someone to love him you said earlier that they can't go against his election right you can't resist his grace correct but how does that how is that forcing someone there they come freely and willingly no no you're just saying they come freely willingly but god they can't go against god's will there right right like i i i follow god because i want to i have no negative connotations about it they don't have a choice about following god they have to because that's the way god elected them to okay so how does that make god unliving though well because it's it's you're not giving them any choice about the matter you're just saying you have to do this you are you in fact you have no choice about your own emotions your feelings imagine somebody can control your emotions and feelings and desires and be like hey will you desire x i want to what i want you want to be like that yeah i want to focus on what i think is maybe the main because it's a it's a longer uh question so i want to focus on the thrust maybe that might be even more uh kind of the more core to dean's super chat question says um if love must be a free choice and god predetermines who loves them and who doesn't like predestination like would you believe in predestination will or well i have to believe in predestination because there's about 35 verses in scripture that says that there's predestination so if i don't do that then i have to throw out scripture and therefore it's meaningless so if i don't if i don't if i don't if i don't take all of the text for what it is then i'm a contradiction in myself and and if i'm a contradiction that means that the scriptures a contradiction if the scriptures are a contradiction that means that god's a contradiction and how can the triumph about god be a contradiction that's not possible so i have to accept all the texts as it is for sovereign god who is triumphant there's no possibility god is not just love he is all of his attributes at all times for all reasons i'm loving as something that doesn't mean anything now if you if there's no choice in love but it's not love you're just describing a dictator telling someone to do what they have to do you've now just made a word like every definition of love that we have in the english language pertains to a sense of uh the person be able to love you back right and if you take that away if i don't get the freely express love and you're just saying i'm programmed to express love and desire that's not love one thing well i'll give you a chance to respond to that will and then i want to get one one last point from dean's super chat question go ahead yeah i mean so the holy spirit graciously causes the sinner to cooperate to believe to repent to come freely and willingly to crest they did ask or suggest they said um how could god be all loving since he forces people love him and hate him would you concede that he does in some cases force people to hate him so hating god is sin right it's reject the rejection of god is sin that's what sin is is a rejection of god got you on this one coming in from milf's porch says adam and he weren't able to know that it is wrong to eat from the tree of knowledge and the snake quote unquote told them only the truth so they haven't been aware of any wrongdoings except for the fact that god told him it was wrong got you on good day to you sir says william is intelligence and power a permission to trample because your god is so powerful and intelligent he can stomp on human values well if god is the creator of all things and he is the creator of human values and he is the creator right i would have to use paul's words and saying is is the potter not able to create one vessel for for good and the other for destruction i mean you can't who are we as humans to tell a creating triumny god what he can and can't do with his own creation he created hitler this is what he's talking about a wrath of destruction right so god wanted the jews to die in the holocaust under this logic this is what god did to bring glory to himself right by using someone like at all hitler to show his wrath that he can show give you a chance perfectly that's an obvious point he just likes to use hitler because he likes to keep the emotion of the audience because you can obviously see in scripture multiple times where god uses other nations in order to punish the israelites it happened several times in scripture but he just likes to use the hitler one because it it sparks a isn't it weird that hitler and god commit the same actions right hitler committed genocide god committed genocide hitler enslaved people god enslaved people what lies is that hitler and god have so much in common in your worldview god ordained all of those acts that's why we want to remind you what i would like to say is folks we have a shortage of muslim guests that come on to debate if you happen to be a muslim and you want to debate we would like to invite you to email me at modern day debate at gmail.com and i'll put that in the live chat as we are looking for more muslim guests to come on and debate you're very welcome here i want to remind you folks i didn't mention it but we are a neutral platform for debates on science religion and politics and want to let you know no matter what walk of life you were from we really do hope you feel welcome whether you be christian atheist agnostic muslim you name it folks we really do appreciate you hanging out with us here at modern day debate and so joshua elix says for william can you explain the difference between god's providence versus god's sovereignty also god ordaining ordaining an act versus god approving an act sure so you have there are multiple there are different wills of god right you have you have god's providence which is kind of his plan so his his overall arcing plan for his creation right and that's what he has ordained right so he he doesn't approve of these acts he's doesn't approve of you he doesn't look there and say man that evil is good but he has made it happen he just makes it happen let's finish for instance you you can i can have to punish my child because he's done something wrong and not enjoy it right if my son sins against me i can punish him and not feel good about it but i have to do it for his own well-being and that's the same thing with god next up thank you very much for your question this one coming in from mike billard who says will i am will does god ordain everything that satan does i think the book of job is fairly clear on that right he allowed satan had to go and get permission from god in order to do anything to job god jondine did god jondine meadows strikes again lightning does strike twice so he says if william were a molanist he wouldn't have this kelvinist problem i'm not got you next up brandon ardaline sword brandon ardaline says bought christianity on wish kelvinism showed up oh i've heard of wish i think this is some sort of consumer website what is wish wish which is a website where you can go buy things for cheap online from all over the world are you serious okay next up thanks for your question says uh mike billard says oh we got that one Oz says skyler wins you got a fan and they say hey will you know you know Oz i definitely know Oz Oz in the atheist round table that's right he says hello you can put that in my in my in my description send everybody over to us even though i don't necessarily agree with his world he's a great guy he's a nice guy you got it and will do d max says can either of you say the two horns of the youth the youth of fro dilemma for a troll in the chat what no i missed that yeah i missed it too uh can either of you explain the youth of fro dilemma for uh apparently a troll in the chat it's basically you know is god good because uh uh you know because of it like the good like is god the good or is there an outside something that is good beyond god basically and what makes god good is it god's nature is it what god says so it's it's basically playing on those type of concepts and ideas gotcha and this one coming in from do appreciate your question Brenton Langle folks if you haven't seen his debate with destiny last Friday it was a juicy one really fun and so Brenton says this listen hear ye hear ye how can god be a quote contradiction if the scripture is wrong a manual can incorrectly describe the operation of a car and the car can still be fine um i agree with this this is the point i was trying to make earlier to you uh when you were you were kind of asking how do i debate this or how do i prove this like what gets you out of all these problems if you say god doesn't execute children doesn't hate children doesn't send six year olds the hell right but you do back those things so it causes the problem but there's no problem god god says that he did those things i i say god didn't do those things and i am a liar or i'm i'm calling god a liar before he is not god i guess when i say there's a problem i i'm taking like a step out like is if i would like if i was talking to somebody who's stuck in a cult right like yes i understand why you believe the things that you do and you have like these justifications for why you believe the things you do but i look at it like you're in a cult and this is a problem right you have these beliefs that are so against human nature right the ideas of what we would call moral or justified or any of those terms and you make new languages out of love like the word love doesn't mean what it means anymore that it's it's incorrect within a traditional human values like feel free to disagree but uh i i just don't find those i disagree 100 percent i mean my moral the fact that i my particular theology means that i i am no you and i skyler are exactly the same and i hope and if right because i don't know for certain that i'm an elect i hope that i am right and i continue to to to do my best to be more and more christlike there's no there is no reason why i was chosen there's nothing that is good about me there's nothing that is special about me that makes it different and so therefore we can be buddies you can do one thing and i can do the other and i don't i don't go out and do all of those horrible things that you call that you accuse me of being a monster for um but i don't judge you if you do other things because we're both sinners we're both equal in god's eyes so i have no moral standard my problem is with the with the other christianic rule rules they have the moral high ground they have done something they have saved themselves they have chose to follow god and therefore they look down on others and say if you aren't like me you're going to burn and hurt an eternal hellfire i don't have that luxury of pride in my worldview do you understand the difference no no i i understand that you believe children will burn in hell i get it i'm just saying that you're in a situation where i believe that's healthy yes i know i get that and i'm just saying that that's not a healthy probably not healthy for your how is that not healthy i doesn't mean i'm gonna go out and do it no because the text tells me not to you're talking about the covenant of works and the covenant of grace those are two different covenants in mankind it tells you not to do it but then he tells you to do it sometimes it's so when did Jesus christ tell us to murder babies yeah in the old testament okay that's the covenant of works covenant of grace that is where jesus christ who is god told people to so i answered your question under the covenant of works he did ask them to do i hate to tell you this it's for me like executing babies it doesn't matter what time period you tell me it is it's not going to make it sound more moral to me right you could tell me it was in the bronze age or whatever time but saying hey it's why these are harms babies and this is baby and what what partiality do you show to babies and what authority do you really just fucking asking me why i care about babies let's keep going man god your religion is this is cult like when you talk about when you can't understand how human beings relate to babies and have empathy for them and care about them and you have empathy for babies you don't you worship a god who's going to send six-year-olds to hell you don't have empathy you you worship a violent murder and so now you know how i think well i mean that's the person you worship okay and i've already shown you that's not that same god now well children go to hell right six-year-olds that lie will go to hell if they are not predestined to go to eternity yeah a six-year-old gets a car accident lies or that day they die they will suffer for all eternity a child that is the unfortunate wages of sin yeah it's it's no it's unfortunate that you dilute yourself and are thinking that that's real that's this sad and depressing part man that's not a god of love that's a fucking thank you for having me not attacking me once again yeah i don't really care man it's just so disgusting it's so awful i feel so awful a lot of assertions for immoral we should we should keep going i i am just giving you my opinion and i just don't know how people get there you guys are new friends okay next up thank you your question says top bot two no brenton i missed yours brenton said yet a follow-up i can write a bible today and write in that bible that it's the true word of god that would have no bearing on the nature of god is brenton god i'm assuming no and so therefore what bearing does it have i guess he's like you assume there is a god without any justification for it i don't assume sure you do i've been given belief yeah you know okay you were given belief how'd you there you can't verify it i can because i believe you were okay okay all right well i wasn't given belief i wouldn't believe you're missing the whole point but it's okay though brenton is pleasant he is not divine uh you know we love him still it consumes a lot of soy uh next up this one coming from jumbly jumble says if the reject rejection of god is sin and god chooses who accepts and rejects him how is god not directly responsible for all sin well i mean he ordained for the for his providence for his design to take place but he's not responsible for the rejection that person willfully and freely and happily happily rejects him gotcha and this one coming in from topot2 who by the way topot2 has helped us with our twitch big time by providing all sorts of awesome graphics emotes badges huge thank you to topot2 seriously said william if god asked you to sacrifice one of your kids would you do it uh abraham gotcha and mike bill ours said james have you gotten those darn teenagers to get off your lawn yet is that a movie reference okay i'm baffled this sounds like a movie you would like skylar it's it's you know they don't say you know get these the old man get the kids off my lawn that's maybe you got those old man vibes going on james what's going on and also want to remind you folks do hit that thumbs up if you've enjoyed this debate we've got more questions but do want to give you a reminder that helps the channel and so thanks for your support folks we really do appreciate you and raya zinsky says if you punish a child and not enjoy it that is different because there is a lesson afterward there is no lesson had in slaughtering uh or in uh sautéing a child forever there there is a lesson for those who he showed mercy on gotcha and watch should they get the watch like is there like a viewing box where they get to watch all the little children burning in hell down there i i enjoy the emotional responses to no but let me seriously we'll give you the same in the audience that's that's when you're saying is going to be there more questions this one from jason torn so thank you very much for your question said for will if god ordained me to be an atheist aren't i just following god's will if that's what he's ordained for you but we should have hope that he he has ordained us for mercy beg beg maybe he'll be mercy merciful to grovel at his feet this one give you the last word will yeah i mean you know god gives you hope so hopefully you might hear this and the holy spirit will awaken you awaken the belief in you and and allow you to find that same same belief that's that's what i pray for every day for everyone or cancer he could just give you cancer and that would be moral children cancer we just give it to six year olds then they die and they burn it for all eternity and then the people that are in heaven get to say wow look how those people did wrong look at that six year old burning there they really deserve it and i know that i'm really blessed because i was randomly selected in heaven as one of the elect oh i'm gonna i'm gonna love this heaven final final word on that is i i really enjoy how instead of debating the electoral aspects of the conversation that he just continually appeals to hypothetical situations no no this is exactly what i do i do want to i want to give some since these attacks or i should say objections attacks on will's arguments i do want to give him the last word and so we do want to say thank you folks for being here we are excited as this wednesday erica gutsy gibbon will be taking on mr batman skyler's uncle so that's going to be really fun we hope you tune in for that oh we had one last question m i k says do you need to be a god to write a self-proclaimed holy text weren't the bible wasn't the bible written by humans response this is a response to is brenton god you really took that seriously or are you okay you're just saying in response to will not my comment about brenton um but he does consume a lot of soy says m i k okay they're saying for you will do you need to be a god to write a self-proclaimed holy text weren't the bible wasn't the bible written by humans and this is a response to you saying asking brenton if he was god so god has chosen to use creation in order to interact with his creation and see who ordained and inspired those men to write what he wanted us to know about himself and so if you are going to write a true book you must be a triumni god if not it's just a humanistic book and you're not a god god show want to remind you folks out there we all we want to remind you of all of our kind of ground rules one we want to encourage you to attack the arguments rather than the people which 99.9 percent people do great thank you guys for doing that also want to remind you hey it's a rough and tumble place here this ain't your grandma's debate channel i'll be real about that we are big on like letting people say almost anything obviously we don't allow we're not going to allow hate speech or something like that and uh i uh want to let i want to let you know though we we do nonetheless it is going to be a rough and tumble place here and so i do encourage you to try to rise above the sometimes you may see forms of tribalism and so i do want to encourage you to try to rise above that as uh sometimes it's out there but anyway joshua alec says for skylar if hell is not a place of eternal torment just a place outside god's community is it evil for god to allow people to go there i guess it would depend on some context in my opinion like how whether it be moral i mean if they don't want it that's fine but i think this there's the little details that i think they're overlooked like they're everyone's just kind of lumped in like oh they didn't want to believe it's like uh maybe they there's reasons in life that didn't believe there's all kinds and under calvinism i mean i don't know if it makes it much better because of the way you know god does things in the world like everything's according to his uh decrees so it's a good question gotcha and cyker so sorry it's too funny cyker one one one says the year is two thousand five hundred and twenty one there are six billion people that are brentonists so we uh next up thank you for your question frosty says we love brenton i saw him in the chat he goes i don't consume any soy okay frosty says william what's your feeling about who picked what stories and why did they why they did it to make quote-unquote the bible you do know how this book came about question mark this bible came about because god chose people inspired them to write what he wanted them to know about himself regardless of what historians now say who wrote that is is irrelevant of whether it is the inspired word of god or not god because i i do believe that if a triumphed god exists he is more than capable of keeping his points together through across time you got it and this question coming in from about two seconds is loading we're almost there thank you very much that was actually yet so i want to say thank you guys we love our guests we really do love them and so want to remind you folks please spread some love onto them as well and so they are linked in the description and we want to say they are also linked if you're listening via podcast you can access their links in the modern database podcast episode description box and so thank you guys it's been a true pleasure william and skylar we really do appreciate you coming on and hanging out with us thanks for the song thank you absolutely my pleasure and so folks i will be back in just a moment with a post credit scene letting you know about upcoming debates i have to tell you tomorrow is going to be a juicy one it is the super straight debate with t-jump and jangle's debate boy that seriously if our youtube channel is not here on wednesday you'll know why it's going to be controversial folks but i promise it's going to be a fun one so you don't want to miss that and then this one on wednesday as mentioned so thanks everybody i will be back to tell you about more upcoming debates in just a moment thanks so much ladies and gentlemen that was a juicy one want to say thanks everybody for hanging out with us nobody has more soy than me believe me and i have the best soy that there is we are excited though i am glad to get to quick say hello to you in the chat as i just do appreciate you guys hanging out here it makes it fun colorado biker prepper my fellow my fellow colorado and good to see you i hope you're doing well and i also have i think at least two towers let me know man i can seriously drop them off it's not a problem i'll be down in denver um in a couple weeks or so so um tape deck glad to see you again brian sievens glad to see you as always endo xd good to see you and davie langer thanks for being with us thanks for again davie langer thanks so much for helping us with the twitch and yeah have to let you guys know if you happen to listen to twitch or i should say if you prefer twitch over youtube oh my you guys i am so pumped to tell you that we are actually live on twitch every time we're live on modern day debate and so i do want to let you know check it out i've linked that i pinned it at the top of the chat and so highly encourage you to check out our twitch you can follow us there and you should get reminders or kind of notifications when we go live and heat shield good to see you and king of 101 says copious amounts of soy so much soy you're right chris gammon good to see you thanks for being a mod says james never explain the soy thing to me i don't get it and i want to wonder forever uh yeah we we love soy but kill the dog he says james consumes more cheetos to prepare your skin for a better donald trump impersonation thank you oh that's funny i do love cheetos i haven't had them for a while though i've been like trying to eat healthy believe it or not um i lost you guys did i tell you this i told i went on keto i lost 27 pounds this year so far is that crazy and i'm like to the point where i can't keep losing weight because like it's just not sustainable i'm like okay this is like enough i don't want to lose anymore like and um i'm getting like yeah i was like uh but for real keto works but pop and ball are good to see you says james did you get the invitation from darthias challenge you to an mma match that sounds fun oh man he's one sometimes he just gets so angry um i hope he's doing well i mean is it's hard to tell if he's even angry is that is just his natural stern state don't over talk me don't over talk me punk okay all that stuff but good to see you let's see brian let's see uh nicolai glad you're here and stripper liquor says moderated beta that's true that's our second that's like our subtitle name and let's see glad to see you will stewart in the chat hanging out man richard gray thanks so much for being with us we appreciate you man and colorado biker purpose is good to see you you can keep them and donate them to someone that needs them thanks for that appreciate that and i will be i'll keep an eye out for somebody who can use them and they're in good they're in a good dry place right now so they're you know they're in good shape and um so i will keep an eye out but yes will stewart says thanks all we appreciate you will thanks for coming on man and brook chavis says just 60 more likes thanks for your support brook seriously i would encourage you guys yeah i mean we've got 252 people watching and 143 likes and so hey we're behind by about a hundred highly encourage you if you want to support the stream if you want to support moderated debate please do hit that like button as we really do appreciate that and experiments and prebiotic chemistry glad to have you here mark read good to see you again dave langer says if you still need help with getting all the alerts set up on twitch let me know i can email you directions how to do it oh i do i don't know how to do that i don't even know what that is so for real that helps and chris glad you're with us vlad tape vlad tips we're glad you're with us and let's see i am chris gammon's right i'm an intermittent faster it was i started doing it seriously this year that's part of why i lost the weight too um yeah it is uh i like it though for real i really do not evolution where are you i just saw you in the chat um says everyone okay let's see we uh he's started started trying to stir up a debate in the chat and brian steven says are you going to the gym you better not be skipping leg day i had leg day yesterday i go to the gym pretty much every day and it helps me handle stress so i am thankful that i get to go to the gym that is one nice part of my day pretty much every day uh i'll take a day off maybe even two days if we got a snow day or something but i it just helps me with the stress a lot of pressure sometimes and i'm i appreciate i always enjoy it so sigman he says james is already fast enough that's funny appreciate you being here buddy sunday worship good to see you and stripper liquor clinton rosh glad you're here banned for life and um i just you guys have got some attitude debate in the chat i like your like your gusto your enthusiasm thunderbird glad you're back good to see you again says you're supposed to eat more fat to keep from losing weight on keto i eat so much fat you wouldn't even believe it for real it's crazy that i now and i'm also i'm like can i get away with this for good like i don't know i'm just like nervous about i wonder if keto yeah i don't know so like the i have a lot of red meat i have two burgers every day and also and west east is legit question are you afraid of the phytoestrogens and soy i don't actually consume like pretty much any soy that was so yeah those are all jokes we're just making fun of brenton but not really his brenton's still here let me get a look at him he's still here in the chat we love you brenton i seriously i have to tell you folks i am i think i told you the other day i just appreciate brenton really does he has helped us a lot uh on modern day debate he's helped us make a connection with dr david friedman um and others as well and he's oftentimes a lot of times people are like hey can i come on for a debate and um i'm like well like we've got a ton of people asking and a lot of times it's like for brenton like sometimes we oftentimes like people like brenton will go out and set up a debate even with a person who's like you know it helps us a lot when we have big name people on the channel i mean that helps us like get more exposure and in terms of fulfilling our goal we have a goal we want people to know about modern day debate and brenton will set up those debates with people like destiny or david friedman and he'll be like hey can you host us they said yes and i'm like of course like that thank you like that helps a ton and so i gotta tell you folks if you're wanting to uh if you want to come on to modern day debate we're not saying you have to do that like i'm trying to get more debates on but i will say though that that helps a lot and when a person does that much effort i'm like of course i'm like oh i'll assure you to the front of the line because it's just like thank you so much for helping worldview detect detectives and can you tell us your story in houston that you mentioned last debate i will and comrod jerry good to see you i'll tell you the houston story i will um rj said who read the koran i think i read the koran a long time ago no joke the hundred i think it's 114 siras um and i if i remember right the but yeah anyway so um i know you weren't asking me but i'm just excited because i used to regularly like i used to now it's hard because but um in terms of regularly like reading um but like i've read only selections of the of the apanishads i don't even know if i'm pronouncing them right but um that was they've like penguin penguin classics has a great book that kind of helped me uh tap into uh and then the uh the koran i had read a long time ago i i never finished the book of mormon that's something i still i want to i should do that soon um but anyway long story short colorado biker prepper said i'll be decommissioning eight autoclaves in the next couple weeks so i have eight more towers holy smokes well i bet you to be honest colorado biker i could probably like i don't need anymore but i'm just thinking i'm like because in my office i could totally set up a computer like i've got a monitor i've got an extra monitor and so i'm like why haven't i already done this so anyway clinton roch says i only like streams james hosts i'm biased that's kind of you friend i appreciate that but the other hosts do an amazing job brian sieven says 150 likes we're so close thanks for that support brian appreciate that big thing bruce wane says debate topic the flavian dynasty invented the holy trinity they were the architects for the current bible that's totally new the subject matter to me but i'm open to hosting it potentially nero says what are your numbers james we know you benching you bench uh 400 i wish i did i think i i could still probably do three three bills um but i've never been able to do 400 only brenton could do that heat shield says that's that's a great viewer to like ratio to be completely honest 55 percent is doing very well that's true i've actually noticed because i used to think that ours maybe wasn't that great but then i tuned in on other like live streams and i was like oh we actually do have a lot of people that give us likes and that's that helps so thank you guys so much for being uh you know generous with your likes and so in my cases i don't really take things seriously i'd like to know why william thinks that's a good response i'm an agnostic and i did send in an email explaining a bit about myself to you by the way i'm sorry that i'm behind on email i do hope to get caught up over spring break yo it's insane right now you guys honestly i'm just i'm not saying the emails are insane the emails are pretty there's a good amount of emails but it's more that the school and the teaching and stuff oh i can't wait for spring break um it's about two weeks away not even and so i'm thankful for that it's coming quick nanology says if you're not a breakfast eater you're pretty much already doing fasting yeah that's true atheist philosopher raptor glad you're with us and let's see here zane thunder good to see you again and sake man he says all those super chats i send you and you don't even read the best one beanie gate oh that's right man i feel i feel bad telling it like reading a super chat saying somebody lost i just makes me sad but and that's for either side i'm just like oh jeez they're just sitting right there like but anyway i will tell you i've caught up with the chat and so one oh i'll tell you about upcoming debates as well you guys and so we're excited about this um let's see bruce avis says if people come over to twitch and mention coming from youtube chat i will get some subs cool brook i encourage you folks we it's pinned at the top of the chat that's where our twitch is and want to let you know before i tell the houston story um want to let you know about upcoming debates we are really excited you guys there are a lot of cool upcoming debates this friday i'm working with i am excited to work with our dear friend dylan burns tv for real i actually do consider him like like a friend like he's a very kind person like we get a long great and so long story short we're co-hosting an epic event this friday we're doing a collab and this is so that you know usually it's like if it's a collab it's good it's going to be cool and so in particular we are going to do it this friday and it's going to be basically a royal rumble of debates i all credit to brenton or i'm not i got brenton on the brain gosh but basically all credit to dylan burns he is doing the work and so i owe dylan big time um will steward says don't feel bad for me i can handle it it's not you personally i don't think that you can't handle it will i don't like doing it to any guest will i believe it i mean will you're kind of like a boot you know you can take a boot and you can like throw it around and kick it around and you know it's like it's tough here's tough as a boot but it's it's everybody that i'm just like ah geez but fish frog dolphin we are glad you were here said what about a mormonism debate i'm open to that if you were if anybody out there is a mormon and you want to debate i'm at modern day debate at gmail.com so i'm putting it in the chat if you are a mormon debater please let me know we'd be pumped to host you for a debate if you want to debate that is now upcoming debates yeah this friday believe me you guys we might as well brenton is calling it something to the effect of a royal rumble i would call it like starcade this friday's debate you guys i'm telling you it's going to be like big name people it honestly it's going to be a heck of a show in all credit again dylan honestly i'm just thankful that he's wanting to collaborate because he's done by far most of the work mi cases thank you for clearing that up and i understand say healthy and good luck thank you appreciate that and let's see thank you let's see stripper liquor says how about a collab with club oh that's good i like that but yeah you guys basically this saturday we might have a debate with a famous not famous but uh famous in his like niche we might have a tag team debate this saturday in the topic of science um and uh it should be a fun one i don't want to give you too many deets because i don't know for sure if it's going to happen but i'm working on confirming it also though you guys we are so excited let me tell you the houston story okay so two seconds okay bear with me can you hear me okay what have i done okay thanks for your patience okay this should work let me just check really quick if i've got it set to the yeti and then i lost my light nephilim free told me i've got to use a light because otherwise he said i look ghoulish jeez neph okay uh but here's the story okay i'm okay i just dropped my mic arm it fell but basically uh here's what i'll tell you uh about houston so i was on couch surfing basically what happened was uh you can okay so i didn't want there to okay i didn't want there to look like there was any scandal going on where i lived and so i said on couch surfing i said i'm willing to host people but i said i prefer they'd be men because um i i happen to prefer the company of women and by that i mean i'm i'm hetero but i didn't want it to look like if i had couch surfers staying if i had women leaving it might give the wrong idea about me and so i said i only want to host guys and i'm not into guys but like i said it was just that people would probably see like oh james had a guy you know the couple guy or guy two two guys leave must have been like as you know old old college buddies or something and so uh basically what happened was i didn't know that if i made that check mark on couch surfing what would happen was um i didn't know that that was like a secret dog whistle where basically couch surfers that was a way in which they could tell if they happen to be men who preferred the company of men that was a way that they could tell them like hey i'm open for business that's one way to put it now so what happened was in houston there was a guy who i i said hey can i stay there and he's like hey uh yeah you you sure can and i was like great and so you know i i stayed and when i got there we and his buddies went out to dinner and it was great you know we got a burger and we just had a great time and they're great guys and you know we're still like you know we're still cool like they're still friends we're still friends basically what happened though was we went that night after dinner we all get home and he's like all right i'm going to go to bed his name was usman and he was i think it was from pakistan and so he had an accent i'm gonna try to do my best at the accent but long story short i was kind of like you know okay time to go to bed and every time i had stayed at a couch surfers uh what would happen was i would sleep in a separate room that was just normal but in this case he was like all right are you like i'm going to go to bed and i was like okay cool like me too um where am i sleeping anyway and he's like oh you're sleeping in my room and i was like okay and i was thinking like that i've never stayed with it like like in a person's room but i guess i was like you know it's not weird like he seems like a you know a nice guy and he's like not he hadn't been creepy and so then i was like all right and so i went into the room and there was like a palette on the floor of like blankets and i you know i was like um i was like oh yeah that works for me you know like we weren't sleeping in the same bed but then i so i went to brush my teeth and i came back to the room and what happened was he like he was laying on his bed with his shirt off and i was like hello and you know then i just got down onto my own bed and like was getting ready for bed and i was like well anyway good night and he's like oh and he's like so anyway we should talk and i was like okay and he's like it was over talking and at some point though i think he's like he's like yeah he's like i think he said he's like he's like you look older for your age and i was like yeah and i was trying to like be playful so i said oh yeah you know but like um business with the ladies is still going okay so far and then he said oh that's probably because you have such a hot body and i was like um thanks and i was like okay so i was like at that point i was starting to put the pieces together and i was like um anyway and i was like well i'd better go to sleep and he and so like he was talking to like he was like so like he kind of kept trying to carry on with that topic to which i wasn't like a fan of and i you know so i was kind of and he's like this conversation could make someone kind of horny and i was like no no it can't no i was like no no so i just basically i was like um i'm not into men and i just have to let you know that and then he was like oh but your profile it said that you prefer to host men and i was like yeah that that was like a just it's a long story but i i just didn't want it to like if i had women leaving they might think it was like something like weird and so he was like that usually that means you're gay and i was like okay i know that now and i like immediately changed it on my profile but what happened was he he was like i i didn't know what to say right so i was like i don't want to be rude to the guy but i also i i just have to know that he and i are on the same page so i just asked him i just went to be as like as straightforward as possible i said well i'm going to go to sleep but i don't have to worry about you doing anything to me while i'm asleep right and he's like oh no no you don't and i was like okay all right so anyway and i was like normally i would have left because who wants to worry about a stranger who might try to do something to you while you're asleep i mean you already know about the story of the guy who tried to kill me so i was thinking um i was like okay maybe i should leave but basically i thought i had just been camping the weekend before like the several days before i made this trip i was exhausted and the reason is because in texas in august camping not easy it's like 90 degrees you're gonna like you're not gonna sleep well and so i was like gosh i need a good night to sleep because i have to drive two more hours tomorrow and so i was thinking i can either leave and just go find a campsite or i can trust this guy's not gonna do anything to me and so i was like all right you know i'm just too tired to do that i'm like i'm not gonna go try to sleep in 90 degree weather again and it just was just terrible so i was like i went to sleep and then i woke up and i heard this like weird sound is i heard it sounded almost like the curtains or you know like the shades that the dangling like hard plastic shades that are in front of a window i thought i had heard those shaking and i was like what like you know i'm like waking up kind of like incoherent and i was thinking what is that noise and so i now i was facing the wall when i woke up so when i looked up i could see the shades and i could see they weren't moving so whatever the sound was it was coming from something else so then you know like i turned slowly because i was like oh no please don't let it be please don't let it be usman making a move or something and so i slowly just kind of like from facing the the wall where the window was like start turning over to see and so as i'm like turning i'm like peeking over trying to like just thinking like oh no what am i gonna see and i look over and i'm like and then i look over and i see standing over me and breathing really heavily is usman looking down at me and i'm like oh my gosh okay i made that part up he didn't do anything to me while i was asleep but um so basically i just said hey you're not gonna do anything to me while i'm asleep are you and you know he's like oh no and he didn't that i know of so we as always a great you know it was a great time it was just a misunderstanding you know i mean couch surfing but um so yeah we do appreciate you guys that is the houston story so good times back in the day you guys and so nicolai says nika channel for these stories that's funny maybe someday fill the logistic says what the heck oh man thank you yes it's uh but yeah no nothing happened between me and usman i'm telling you you guys but uh yeah let's see elephants is bro that's terrifying um and uh so oh man i just i love you guys you guys are funny but that is that's a true story up until the part of like usman breathing really heavily he didn't do that and so um but yeah fill the logician i can't yeah i'm i'm not as strong as i used to be he said how much do you bench it's about like now it's only about 300 or something it's so um but so i used to be like it used to be like 370 i used to be like really into lifting and so yeah but yeah thank you guys so much for hanging out with us we do appreciate you guys it's you guys always make it fun i love you guys thanks for all your support of this stream and so uh if you uh i just want to say yeah we are we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're from you don't want to miss this debate on wednesday and so if you're not already subscribed hit that subscribe button and notification bell so you don't miss it you guys as erica will be back it's going to be a lot of fun and so and yes comrade jerry usman did have a hurry chest now thank you guys so much for all of your support brooks says you could have spooned with him no no no that's okay top hot deuces great stream thanks for your kind words friend we love you guys seriously thank you guys you guys honestly i can't stop smiling like my smile is just like right now i just appreciate you guys so much so thank you for everything i seriously appreciate you pop and bala you weren't here for the story where i mentioned i'll tell you gotta come back next time man i'll tell you another time i can't tell it so soon but um there was a gentleman who did try to perhaps try to kill me um but yeah so thank you guys we really do appreciate you uh thanks so much prostice says that story is worth thumbs up in guys thanks so much we do appreciate you guys thanks for all your support we love you and so yes if you enjoyed the story hit that like button on the way out and do it for usman you guys put that in chat hit that like button for usman um but yeah good night uh thanks for your love and kind of chris gammas is laugh out loud good night man good times thank you guys you guys are seriously fun i honestly appreciate you all so keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable really do appreciate you