 to order. This is a special meeting of the Common Council and as is customary our city clerk Sue Richards will read the quote of the evening. Thank you Mayor. The challenges of change are always hard. It is important that we begin to unpack those challenges that confront this nation and realize that we each have a role that requires us to change and become more responsible for shaping our own future. Thank you Sue. Roll call please. Corrin. Here. Bauch. Excuse. Bowers. Here. Decker. Excuse. Hammond. Here. Hanna. Here. Heidemann. Koth. Here. Kittlesen. Here. Montemayor. Here. Rindfleisch. Here. Racler. Here. Samson. Here. Vanderweal. Here. Versi. Here. And Wongamon. Here. Forteen present. We have a quorum. Alderperson Koth will lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you Julie. Okay we have two matters laid over which are both connected with the budget 1532 and 1533 32 resolution 129 1011 as amended by Alderperson's Hammond, Bauch, Boron, Rindfleisch and Racler ordering the 2011 budget appropriations and the 2010 tax levy for use during the calendar year 2011. And we have 1533 resolution number 130-10-11 as amended by Alderperson's Hammond, Bauch, Boron, Rindfleisch and Racler ordering the 2011 budget appropriations for the city of Sheboygan funds. We want to do verse 131. I put my light on right away. Yes. We okay. I'd like to make a motion to move the vote to November 29th for final passage of the budget. Second. And under discussion we've got two gentlemen that aren't here that there's been changes to this budget amendments made that I have not heard from either one of them or had I know in the case of Alderman Decker he worked quite hard to get this budget to where it is and I'd like to see him have an opportunity to vote on it whether he thinks it's all right or not. Same with Corey. Okay we have a motion and a second under discussion. I would not advise moving the meeting to the 29th myself. Number one we have all the Alderman assembled here this evening that are available. It is not customary for the city if there is a quorum to move meetings around for the convenience of older persons. Also on the 29th our budget is due in to the state or to the county by the first in order to get the tax bills out moving it to the 29th. If there's no resolutions reached on the 29th then the earliest we could have the meeting is the first which would put us out to the second. That is the reason why we scheduled this meeting tonight. It would be up to the vote of the council. We have a motion and a second but I would strongly discourage it. It is under discussion. Vice President Rindflash. Thank you your honor. Monday I probably will not be able to attend the meeting so we're going to have a problem of do we hold the meeting for two other persons and then I may not be able to be here or whoever else may be here. So I recommend that we take the vote today. We've had numerous discussions. The public has had two opportunities to speak on there. I think we're pretty sound on where the public stands. I urge us to take the vote today. Thank you. Vice President Rindflash. Alderman Boran. Thank you mayor. I would at least hope that if we go ahead with the vote tonight that Alderman Decker and Alderman Bauch are given the opportunity to speak. It might be water over the dam depending on this goes tonight but as Alderman Decker put a lot of work in on this budget and I certainly would like to hear if he has any comments on it and also Alderman Bauch. So I hope that courtesy is extended to them if they ask to be heard. If they ask to be heard at the next council meeting they will have an opportunity to voice their opinion on the decision of the council. Is there any further discussion? We have a motion and a second to hold the meeting till the 29th. I would like a roll call on this please. Sure. Boran. Aye. Bowers. Aye. Hammond. No. Hannah. No. Heidemann. Aye. Ka. No. Kittlesen. No. Montemayor. No. Rindflash. No. Racler. No. Samson. No. Vanderweal. No. Versi. Aye. And Wangeman. No. Four ayes, ten noes. Motion fails. We will take, so did you say 30, 130? We will take resolution 130-10-11 first. President Kittlesen. Thank you Mayor. I would ask that the resolution be put upon its passage. Second. We have a motion and a second to put the resolution upon its passage as amended under discussion. Alderman Versi. Thank you Mayor. First off I just wanted to thank the police, the DPW and the library for doing what they were told to do this year by coming in originally with a 0% increase to their budgets. Second I want to thank the DPW, also the union for being the only ones willing to help the city out with conceding the raises and which helped obviously very much to put this budget together. Very disappointed with our other union partners not stepping up to help us out kind of in a time of need that the city needs. And then as far as raising taxes goes, we know there should have been enough concessions from all the unions to save all the guys, keep the library funded as well. And if they wanted, if they want a lasting relationship with the city and municipality, they're really going to need to try a little bit harder to support the system that pays them. That's kind of a key part to their wages. The taxpayers across the nation have really spoken, they're fed up with government overspending and thinking they have an open checkbook with tax dollars. The real world has ways, they have to work within a budget, I think and I believe local government should also work within that same tightened budget. I know raising taxes isn't imbibable, okay? But now is not the time, no matter how small it is, because it's principal now. It comes to the point on, I put this in quotes, I had this, let's just keep raising taxes to support our spending habits. It's without regards to the taxpayers as well. I just want everyone to know that's why I'm voting out of the budget tonight. Thank you. Thank you Alderman Versi. Excuse me. One thing that should be noted is that while the state and the federal government have continually spent more money year after year, the city of Sheboygan has held the line on its tax levy for the last five years. In that time period the state has raised the expenditures at the state level an average of 5.1% every year or 25.5% in that five and a half years that the city has been operating off the off the same amount of money. Just to note that. Alderperson Montemire. Thank you Mr. Mayor. I would like to make an amendment. Is now the right time or shall I wait for the next document? An amendment to the general fund budget? That's right. Now could be a time to make an amendment. That is what you're talking about. Next one. Thank you. Oh it's not the general fund budget you're interested in? I want to take some money from the motor vehicle fund to fully fund MOE. I just want to say it. That's the next one. Next one. I will do it then. Thank you. Thank you Alderperson Montemire. Alderman Raceler. Mayor, I just want to elaborate and comment on Alderman Versi's and thank him for thanking everyone. But I think if I'm not wrong, Mr. Amolio, I think the fire department also helped out with their raises going back into the turns as well. Correct? Yes, I am correct on that. So I want to make sure that they got there too. Thank you as well. Thank you Alderman Raceler. Alderman Bourne, once again please. Thank you Mayor Ryan. I'm not going to support the budget tonight either and I gave some reasons the other night. Number one, we're carrying over a million dollars into next year's budget without knowing how the union contracts are going to shake out what our health insurance is going to be for 12 and what the Wisconsin retirement fund contributions are going to be and by the way for those of you don't know for police and fire they're going up to as high as 19.4% of their salary for 2011 contributions and for the citizens out there that don't know it somebody in the fire department that makes or the police department that makes a hundred thousand dollars you the taxpayers we the taxpayers are going to have to fund an extra nineteen thousand four hundred dollars into the Wisconsin retirement fund. They continue to pay nothing. If any of you happen to subscribe to the Milwaukee Journal or read it at JS online the article in the paper yesterday and I want to just cover a little bit of it that the budget situation in Madison is even worse than what it was anticipated to be already reeling from a projected deficit in next year's budget starting in July the state faces an even more immediate challenge rising costs and several programs that could set up a shortfall for the current year ending in June's budget document show. That possible shortfall was not included in budget estimates estimates release Friday that could easily top one hundred million dollars without action from either Governor Jim Doyle or Governor-elect Scott Walker. Any immediate shortfall would be in addition to up to the three point three billion dollar deficit already projected for the 2011 2013 budget. Plus it could trigger a legal requirement for a budget repair bill early in the Walker administration a major potential distraction to the incoming Republican governor who must already deal with high unemployment in the next two year budget. A report released Friday by the Doyle administration showed that the projected budget for 11 and 13 could be as high as three point three million dollars. This amounts to up to 11% of the overall twenty nine point two three billion being requested by state agencies in the two year budget to put this another way the fourth the shortfall would be enough to pay for the state share of running the University of Wisconsin system and Wisconsin Technical Colleges for two years and still have money to spare. In addition the state is under court order to pay back a fund a fund to compensate injured patients for an illegal budget transfer of two hundred million dollars. The state Supreme Court has ruled that this was an illegal transfer and the two million two hundred million dollars is going to have to be paid back in the next two years with interest. In some years when the state expenses rise more than expected higher than expected tax collections help help offset those costs but the Doyle administration report released Friday showed that tax revenues this year will come up one hundred and forty million dollars below estimates. So this cements my reason for not voting for this budget tonight because very likely Governor Walker is going to have to make a budget repair bill and likely in all likely who had very likely that could be a cut in shared revenue for the city of Sheboygan and other municipalities in the 2011 budget. So Mayor the other night you talked about a mid-year surprise it may it may come before a mid-year surprise it may be at the end of the first quarter and I am good conscious conscience cannot vote for a budget that carries forth a million dollar deficit with all the uncertain uncertainty uncertainties that we're faced with going into this this next year thank you. Thank you Alderman Bourne just one clarification the dollar amount for for shared revenue in 2011 I believe is already set. Dr. Amodio that number is already set if the state was to give us a surprise they'd have to send us a bill for something. They would what they did a couple years ago. Alderman Heideman thank you Mayor. I'm also not going to support this budget and I'm not against funding the library or the fine work that Alderman Hammond did and the concessions that were given by our public employees what I have a problem with is eighty percent of this budget contains wages and benefits for employees. This is wages and benefits for employees that our tax payers that are losing their jobs having difficult times having to take cuts in their own wages and providing more of their benefits have to take part in that so I'm not going to support this budget. Thank you Alderman Heideman Alderperson Montemire. Thank you Mr. Mayor. I do believe that the wages and benefits are less than that I remember our finance chair last year was very happy that we were able to bring that percentage down to between seventy five percent and seventy eight percent and I remember that clearly because I thought that was a giant step that we made in one year unexpected because he originally thought we could get it from eighty four maybe down to eighty two but then it would was all the way down to either seventy five or seventy eight percent. I think we did a good job last year and we can think of all sorts of for instances and what ifs and maybes but we have to act on what actually is right now so I will support tonight's budget. Thank you Alderperson Montemire. Being in the service business as we are of course the majority of our expenditures are going to be on wages and benefits we don't manufacture a product that we'd be paying for raw materials or anything of that sort. Alderperson Rindflesch vice president Rindflesch. Thank you Mr. Mayor. Just for clarification we are talking just on 1533 correct. So we are just talking about the general fund right now we're not talking about the tax levy. The tax levy which would be 2011 appropriations right from the general fund library issue as we brought up that's going to be the next document as we talk about the tax levy is that correct. Okay. The big one. Eighty percent as we heard about salary and benefits as I look at the budget as amended this keeps this basically the police at the same level it allows for us to have the three patrol officers funded by the COPS grant and I for one won't want to support this because I cannot see what's going to happen to the city if we don't have those officers on the street. We had heard earlier about divisions of the city that are luxuries this is not a luxury this is a must-have. Votes against the budget that's fine but understand you're voting and and not having those cops on the streets according to the amended budget they will be layoffs we will lose those three officers. The other way of looking at it is simple too if we vote against the budget don't have those police officers on the street have a smaller budget we still have to be paying 80% salary and benefits. That number isn't going to change at all. We'll just have less cops on the street and I in good conscience can't can't do that as well. So I support paying you know the 80% do I wish that in contrary negotiations down the road that they'll pay more for the retirement? Absolutely that's not gonna happen tonight that's not gonna happen Monday night it's gonna we have to decide tonight if we're going to fund according to the amended resolution or not. So I for one at this point will for 1533 support the budget and urge that you all do so at least we can keep the safety of the city first and foremost thank you. Thank you Vice President Ruhnfleisch. Alderman Heidemann. Thank you. I did check with director Mario on that number. Some time ago when we had the star resolution I can remember Alderman Gisha commenting to me about after that we got it down to like 78 or 76% and he said I know Joe you'd like to have it a lot lower than that and mirror I called some companies that were in the service industry and they said if your if your wages and benefits are 80% of your budget I'd get out of the service industry if I was you so let's tell the police department that. Alderman Versi. Thank you Mayor just to follow up on the thing actually you and I discussed in the past and Alderman Bourne brought it up tonight if we get hit with those mid mid-year surprises how do you resurrect that because we can't laugh any firefighters so you come to Heads it goes to DPW Heads and police department Heads if we get with those surprises there isn't anybody else we can hit correct how else will be how else will be okay are you asking me the question statement sure is in question where would it come from one thing you're speaking in hypothetically ifs pretty big okay pretty big certainty well I mean we if you're going to turn down this entire budget for a what if right do you go into business saying what if I fail there's always what ifs but the job needs to be done Alderman Bourne thank you Mayor just want my friends from the library to remember that I was the one the other night that moved to fully fund the library but under the circumstances I I can't vote for this I just simply can't vote for this budget for the reasons that I stated before and also Mayor that's a hypothetical that I'm also I'm almost certain that you're going to have to that you're going to have to deal with and the only people we can lay off the only people we can lay off our cops and DPW people because we're frozen and you did not follow the advice of your former finance director when he sent Alderman Bauch and I an email the morning he started the 6 30 in the morning of the day that he started working for the county and said don't hire the four firefighters because we're going to have to lay them off at the beginning of the year so now we're in this fix because of the way you broke the tie and hiring this four people that's right Alderman Bourne I broke the tie because the council wasn't able to reach a decision remember that well you made the decision that is tying our hands right now with this budget because we can't lay off any firefighters the council is elected to make decisions the council was unable to make a decision after I believe seven or eight votes on that issue I'm sorry to interrupt I'm getting the fee I know that there's confusion on what we're just talking about we're crossing over on things if it's all right with the council in past years we've always had one of the heads or department deputies come up here and they're working with you so that they can explain I'd feel much better if you had either Nancy or Jim or both up here would that be all right with you because then you're going to know which one you're you know you're talking about perhaps I'm hearing that you're talking the wrong one at the wrong you know what I'm saying so I'm just a little concerned that maybe when we get to the vote but if we had Nancy or Jim or both up here that would be helpful for you I think that alright absolutely they can both come up we don't need they can I would like them to be here we could just move a couple chairs up here and just have them up here so they can be part of this I feel much better about that so then can they clarify we are just voting on the we need to have the clarification from them so that they that they can explain exactly what you're voting on okay document 15-33 as amended is what we're voting is is what right and that's resolution number 130 as amended and that one does not have anything to do with the tax levy it's for the enterprise funds the internal service funds and the trust funds so that document has nothing to do with the levy could you clarify the 130 deals with the library please res 130 no res 130 doesn't right it's the if you turn to the second page you'll see the funds that at least it's wastewater parking transit motor vehicle water health insurance liability insurance the trust funds it has nothing to do with the levy the library anything like that I made the motion to put the resolution upon its passage and we did have a second for that so that's what we're discussing this is what is under discussion just the just the budget appropriations for the city of shabuagan funds and the amendments to remind you what you did on Monday this correct this is what the spreadsheet was that was handed out finance then took that and incorporated in this which transferred $125,000 from motor vehicle to the general fund correct and they included the water utility budget that's what happened on this one document so that's this one okay okay that is the only change on this that's the only change on this document is that little clearer I'm gonna turn off all the lights here if anybody would like to discuss just this document I do I do believe if Alderman Montemire if you were looking to make your motion for the motor vehicle fund this would be the time to do it correct Alderperson Montemay are please thank you Alderman Hammond and thank you Mr. Mayor I would make a motion to take the remaining amount from the motor vehicle fund to fully fund the MOE for the library for 2011 and the amount would be $159,500 second okay we have a motion in a second to take $159,500 out of the motor vehicle fund and to appropriate that to the library to meet maintenance of effort on the library funding the library budget under discussion thank you these are tough economic times and so we need unusual actions as we can see we can see we're working feverishly trying to understand trying to do this job and I think the library funding of MOE is very important we heard from about 50 people about 120 people filled this chamber and the hallways and even Alderman Boren said that at ringing the bells today six people recognized him and said keep the library going and I know you've heard that we had that the library the we well I am a trustee of the library have the $400,000 there but a lot of that money has been saved little by little and will probably be used to replace the heating cooling system the 30-year-old heating cooling system have you ever been in the library in the summer it is icy cold because there is only on and off and now there's been repairs on that there is nothing there's no other way to maintain that imagine what would happen if that system does fail millions of dollars worth of books with mold would be destroyed we must save this money the request for this has been in the capital improvements for many years it's always been slashed so the library has been saving money little by little knowing that probably it will have to come from that fund and I consider this a one time only and these extremely unusual times thank you thank you all to be here Alderman Hammond thank you very much mr. Mayor although I understand the intent I can't support taking money from the motor vehicle additional dollars from the motor vehicle fund you know this got us in trouble in Madison it's gotten us trouble in Washington the 125,000 allocation from the motor vehicle the fund was to cover the administrative cost that the city currently does or pay or cover the administrative efforts that the city currently does on behalf of the motor vehicle fund so it's not a money grab to balance the budget it's just basically looking at the cost the city incurs for running that or helping her assisting in that fund and charging it back to the appropriate department you know we made the allocation of the levy increase of a hundred and forty thousand five hundred that allows the library board again the library board has to make that decision but allows them to make the right decision to keep the hours of service by employing 40 hours a week and allows them to buy new books and new items and by the end the director's own admission in 2011 we would not be kicked out of eastern shores library system so the funding that we provided them at the last meeting should be adequate enough to maintain a level of service that they're currently doing right now and funding additional dollars just to meet maintenance of effort doesn't seem to make sense to me when we're already meeting the service level that are currently at thank you Alderman Hammond vice president Rindflesch thank you mr. mayor this is tricky since we're looking at moving from one of the enterprise funds to the library fund simply the library is really the issue right now so I'll just focus my remarks on the motor vehicle fund and then we'll carry over the next item as we get to it I think in the past we have used the motor vehicle fund as a savings feature to take money out to balance budgets and so on in the last several years and it's a nice large line item and it looks like it's something easy that we can take and balance the budget easily but it's an internal service fund and it's there for a reason it is there for when police officers need to buy new vehicles we have cash to pay for that instead of borrowing for that six taxpayers money the fire department needs new trucks that's the fun it comes out of when vehicles and public works need to be replaced that's the fun it comes out we're gonna need some vehicles and public works shortly and by tapping into that fund means that we'll now have to go borrow basically capital funds or bonding for vehicles which I think is an incredibly poor choice because those vehicles don't last as long as your as the payback on when you borrow for that so we have cash taxpayers have cash on hand to buy vehicles and instead of using that cash on hand you're asking to borrow it in the long run so well it seems easy that we can just transfer that that money out there cheaply there's actually hitting costs in that and the costs are that we'll have to borrow later on and charge it and recharge interest the other side of that vehicle fund is that as departments take out of that fund for vehicle purchases for themselves they also pay back into that fund within their budgets as well and I can definitely not in good conscience transfer money out of there for a non-vehicle purchase without some kind of payback feature that the other departments are subject to it seems it seems like it you know well thought out of as a good idea to try to maintain maintenance of effort but a poor decision financially to be done out of out of an enterprise fund and the general tax thank you thank you vice president Rindflash Alderman Samson thank you mr. mayor okay I appreciate the the gesture from Maryland Alderman onto Mayor with that but I I have to disagree with that and completely go away from that because it's not necessarily a one-time situation because we're already going into the motor vehicle fund with something else so it appears that it has become easier and easier and easier once you crack that open one year and you go into it another year and you go into another year you're not fixing the underlying problem which is ultimately cities just not bringing in the revenue we have a history from mr. Modio that he brought over a few nights ago with revenues or less than expenditures revenues or less than expenditures revenues or less than there was a number of four number of years that that happened there's I think a lesson hopefully to be learned with that expenditures are greater than the income that tells me we need to decrease the expenditures and that doesn't always necessarily mean letting people go there's a lot of other ways to find money and that's not always finding the money through the taxpayers pocket book either so I cannot support again tapping into the motor vehicle fund again this time because what happens again next year we talk about the what ifs but this isn't going to be fixed next year either if we keep going into different funds and pulling money around that money is needed somewhere else and I'm sure it's probably it'll be a time when it will be needed and it won't be there going back to the initial resolution 1533 right the one that we are working on right now right now we're working on strictly the the we're not working on that one Alderman Samson yeah I mean I mean we're still talking about the general fund we're not talking about actually right now we're only discussing the enterprise funds where we are discussing the motor vehicle fund right now because all the person not to be or made a motion to move some of that money okay thank you then I think this still applies this is a fine example of developing some sort of a longer term plan focusing more on the future because when you get crunched for time you make very drastic decisions that are very costly in the future it may work today but tomorrow you're going to pay big time and we're finding that out right now what really running a no solid plan and foundation is doing we're making decisions and it's going to be very hurtful in the future thank you Alderman Samson one thing I will point out in the year 2010 which is the present budget we're under our revenue and our expenditures our expenditures are not anticipated to exceed our revenue that was the budget that I passed last year or you passed last year that we're operating under now Alderman Bowers thank you a couple questions you brought up a good point here what we were setting a budget what happens if we go over that budget at the end of the year and all budgets only an estimate but if we're over the budget are there any ramifications could someone answer that because in other years we've gone over budgets in certain departments are there ramifications the ramifications are you're digging into your reserve funds in order to float the boat okay so there's no nobody's going to jail over it if that's well I understand that thank you if we do go over the budget there's no the revifications are not that's something we just take it out of reserve funds so that's all there is we don't go back to that department say look last year you went over we don't take that money out for the next year is there any checks and balances on the I can tell you that this year we we built a budget for 2010 yeah we're not going over our budget and we are anticipating that this budget that we're passing in 2011 we have financial people here that we are not going to exceed our budget in 2011 also well I can't I can't speak of what prior years but I'm saying in 2010 we are not projected to that our expenditures will exceed our revenues and this budget in 2011 is designed to do the same so everything is based on projections and if you do go over we just make it up with but put more money in so we try to estimate what our revenues are our expenditures if you go over we just take it out of a fun right well the idea is to keep fiscal restraint where you don't go over okay yeah that's that's the all right well I'll get back to the amendment that we have for for the maintenance of effort if I understand this correctly we're not going to lose any maintenance of effort this year if we do not approve this amendment is that correct when I can lose membership I believe that's been stated yes so this is a time that we can stand up to the state because the state mandates that we do these things but they do not provide us with the funds so we are taking a stand right now and say the state of Wisconsin and we've talked to some of our representatives and I believe other people have to and there's something in Madison that might be changing this so I cannot support that because I think that other cities and other communities would be doing the same thing that we are or should be doing now I'd want to commend the people from the library you should be sending those 1400 signatures to your state representatives put the pressure on them like you put it on us which is good because they're the people that really call the shots not us we're called to provide the money they make the laws so right now is a chance for you people to make inroads and change this law thank you all the men bowers all the men born please nothing nothing all the person not to mayor one more time right thank you mr. mayor remember maintenance of effort was started initiated a long time ago on purpose so that a community with a library municipalities with libraries if they had a mayor or a council that didn't see value in a library they couldn't wipe it out in a couple of years it purposely put maintenance of effort in there so that municipalities would maintain libraries that was it because can you imagine if we didn't have maintenance of effort what the libraries might be like and what if what if they might be like in the state with the tight budgets Thomas Jefferson Benjamin Franklin and the people who made the law about MOE there was a good purpose to that they were thinking about the long-range future not just today and so I'm still urging you to take a hundred and sixty thousand dollars out of the motor vehicle fun just one thank you again all the person out there all the man Hammond thank you mr. mayor and again if times were different I would have a different opinion a maintenance of effort was put in in the 70s and this is one person's opinion but in my opinion eight minutes of effort was very poorly written it put no contingencies in for municipalities when they have financial or economic or when economies are struggling things like that what we're doing is not going to wipe out the lead public library it will give them them the the funds again as the library board sees fit to put the keep people at 40 hours it gives them money again as the library board sees fit to buy new items and buy new books we're not wiping them out we're not maintaining maintenance of effort we're not getting kicked out of Eastern shores I just I'd have a hard time supporting point a hundred and sixty thousand dollars out for just so we can meet an arbitrary number thank you Alderman Hammond I am out of lights on the board right now we have a motion in the second to appropriate a hundred and fifty nine thousand five hundred dollars from the motor vehicle fund to the library in the 2011 budget and I vote will be to appropriate that money from the motor vehicle fund to the library a no vote will be to not do it we'll call please Bowers no Hammond no Hannah no Heidemann no cut no Kittlesen no Montemayor I Rinflaish no excuse me no thank you Racler hi Samson no Vander wheel no versey no Longamon no and boron no two eyes 12 nose motion fails we're back to the original amended document which is for the various funds in the city only the only amendment being that transfer 125 thousand dollars from the motor vehicle fund to the general fund for administration of the motor vehicle fund under discussion on that vice president Rinflaish thank you Mr. Mayor just to clarify for the vote since I agree with Sue that we have kind of crossed the bit lines and had multiple debates on this one the vote today is simply page two and page three of the document the 1533 resolution 130 10-11 is the enterprise funds internal service funds trusted agency funds all other discussion that we would like to have would come in the next document in terms of you know the final budget and what have you and then also to to clarify the 125,000 from the motor vehicle fund isn't actually transfer out of the existing cash it is simply that we are not putting in this book this year's budget to fund a hundred twenty five thousand for motor vehicle fund administration costs is that correct that we're actually not really that that the hundred twenty five thousand isn't coming out of the current balance what it is is that we're not funding it out of 2010 budget well it is come it is coming out of the balance it is it's an additional expense to the motor vehicle fund which is the clarification I was looking for thank you so that's really the change that we're looking at on this document here we're not talking about police or library or anything else things that I had already talked about myself so if we were doing it the other way we wouldn't have had to pull money out we would just reduce the rents that were paid so this is a little more transparent okay is there any further discussion I have no more lights on the board this will be document number 1533 resolution 130-10-11 a yes vote and I vote will be to pass as amended we'll call please Hammond hi Hannah hi hi to men don't cut I kiddleson I Montemay or I win place I racer I Samson I van der wheel I Percy no Wongamun no Lauren no Bowers no nine eyes five no motion carries okay now we will discuss resolution number 129-10-11 which is basically general fund budget we have a motion Vice President kiddleson thank you mayor I would make a motion to put the resolution 129-11-10-11 as amended upon its passage second motion in a second to put the resolution upon its passage under discussion Alderman Warren thank you mayor attorney McLean is it possible to when we're doing this next document to vote on the library issue separately take a separate vote on that or do we have to take this as a full package I guess it'd be my opinion Alderman Warren that you'd have to take it as a whole this is budget document okay if I could vote if I could vote on the library issue separately as I did the other night I would support raising the tax levy for that however I can't support it because of the fact is in other groups other legislatures you know unfortunately when in my mind I can't support let's say 90 or 80 or 90% of the budget I can't vote for something that's in there that 10% of the budget that I would support so I want my friends from the library to know that if I could vote on this separately tonight I would support raising the tax levy for the funding the compromise that we reached the other night but because I can't vote on it separately and I have to vote in the entire package I'm going to vote no on the entire package thank you thank you Alderman Warren is there any further discussion thank you mr. Mayor look I realize it's not a perfect budget you know I know there's those out here that don't think the unions did enough some that think concerns about the level of wages and benefits that are out there but holding up the budget or voting no because of some ideal that we can put pressure on the unions or put pressure on somebody to give back wages and concessions in a non-contract year is in my opinion not productive I think we've got a good document it keeps the police the police on the streets adds an extra three actually keeps the firefighters working keeps DPW doing what they do provides a level of revenue or revenue revenue for the library and again next year is a contract year we can come back and fight then so again I would encourage the alderman to although we all have our our personal opinions to not hold up the business of the budget in the city because of some personal personal feelings I guess thank you thank you alderman Hammond and I think that's a good point to make for those alderman that are thinking that we should have gotten more in contract negotiations contracts were not opened this is not a contract year 2012 is a contract year which will be negotiated during 2011 we came to agreements with all of our our labor unions in the summer of 2009 for the 2010 and 2011 budgets so this is not a contract year so trying to hold out on the budget or change the budget to try to renegotiate contracts is not I don't feel as productive at this time I alderman Samson thank you mr. mayor okay I'm sorry can I just get some clarification exactly now we just voted for 1533 resolution 1530 or I'm sorry 130 dash 10 dash 11 and that was for amending everything strictly for the funds which was that the various enterprise funds that was for things like wastewater we have the general fund in library and then we also have some enterprise funds like now we're voting on the general fund correct the library is part of this now the library so so now that separate issue that we went through with the library funding is now part of the library that that what we voted on the other night is now rolled into the one document correct Steve and alderman Samson what we were talking about with alderman Montemaris was because it was coming out of the motor vehicle fund which is part of this enterprise fund of the last resolution that we just okay okay I understand that so right now we're voting on the chart that he the entire budget correct less than the library is attached with that okay thank you thank you alderman Samson alderman longerman thank you mr. mayor I would just take a moment or two to songly concur with alderman born they too have been fond of the library for a very very long time and I don't feel comfortable supporting this document with that in mind thank you thank you all to me one man any further discussion all the person cut thank you my wife this sheet here I need public library we're looking at 12 cents as far as the tax rate so we're going on this that would be a tax for us no where's yeah the what was amended the other evening you have that document there number four number four on the list with a six four on the list but number six is star that's just my notes from the meat that's not oh yeah we started doing all the amendments oh yeah no no no any further discussion Alderman Samson thank you mr. mayor I had a feeling it was it was coming down to everything was going to be wrapped into one I have to sort of sway in in in the direction of Alderman born but not for the same reasons particularly I have an issue with even if it's a slight raise in in any taxes I still have an issue with that when the council is the mandated set the standard for no tax levy increase of any kind it was pretty solid I think there are a lot of other ways that a lot of other things that could have happened that would have prevented maybe a slight tax increase of any kind but again I think when people are looking at long term yes the library is important and yes police and fire and everybody they look at those issues but they also look at what a city does for its long-term planning and if they're if their solution and they see the solution as well we find ourselves in a spending hole let's raise the taxes 6 cents here 10 cents here 12 cents here 24 cents let's just raise taxes on everybody and just get it over with that's you know again I have a terrible challenge with that with that and I and I wish that the library issue was separate from then unfortunately it's not but I like the the way that we handled the the general fund and in the library issue unfortunately these are going to be combined as one so I'm not too sure I can support because of my issue with the tax increase just so I can clarify something I believe Alderman Boren said that he would support the library funding of the library but would not support the other document correct so he didn't I think he's the opposite okay I said I said if we could separate out the library from in this document this document you know there's there's you know so you want to quantify the library is 15% of the whole budget that I agree with if I could vote on it separately I would vote for the library the compromise that we voted on the other night but in totality I can't support the budget okay let me clarify something here this budget can be amended for those of you say they can't support this budget it's 8 o'clock right now Sun comes up about six in the morning we can amend this thing at any time if you're not comfortable with something toss out an amendment if you if you have one portion of the budget that you're not satisfied with that's causing you to vote against the whole thing the intention is to pass a budget this evening so if you are opposed to this budget please come up with a plan and give us some suggestions you know it's easy to be opposed to something but what's the answer so floors wide open push your button come up with a plan that works for you if this budget isn't working for you right now but I have no intention of leaving this place until we pass a budget this evening Vice President Rindflash thank you I agree and hopefully rise to the challenge first some comments on the amendment the budget is voted as amended and right now and that is based off of adding in the tax levy for the library and we've heard two gentlemen all the men said they're not going to support the budget even though that's the budget they voted to amend to it seems a little unusual for me to vote for the budget two days ago and then to not vote for it today I understand that there's confusion that couldn't separate that item but I think perhaps it's a way of taking taking a ducking the issue I guess a little bit is to say I supported one two days ago but I'm not going to support tonight because it's the full budget that's the budget that was amended with their votes with not not however with my vote the reason I didn't vote for the amendment is because this council has made a statement that we were not going to raise taxes and we and we were going to try to make government more efficient and work within our means we did that for all other departments except for one and as a statement for myself what I had said was that if for police department we're going to expect them to work within the the same budget all departments should if we're going to raise a tax levy for one department then it opens the door that we should be able to raise a tax levy for all and fully fund the police department fully fund public works making a mistake what happened public works is we're going to be four people down from the current year when everything is said and done unions have come back but that really is a layoff I mean it will also directly walk in people out the door that's what's happening we're going to have to do the same amount of work with four people less in public works so I'll go back to my original statement of saying if we're going to raise the levy less raise the levy enough to fully fund at least those two departments public works and police department or if we're not then don't vote for the amendment which was already voted upon and all departments live within the current budget means so I'll make the amendment since I'm guessing based on my math that it's not going to pass with the two gentlemen that had already spoken to remove the tax levy increase as was amended two days ago and if that amendment passes then we can at least pass that budget then we're going to ask people to add it back in again if they so desire but perhaps then because that's about budget document that I can vote for then and at least see if we get 90 people to vote for that but as is I can't support it because we're raising the tax levy for one department and not for all the departments thank you I guess I'll make the amendment then I'll make that motion the amendment would be to the tax levy increase now there is let's let's get this straight there is a tax levy increase in the general fund budget the tax rate remains the same correct let's not increase tax rate rate equates with the six cents per thousand dollar basically reverse the action that was taken on Monday so we have a motion to reverse the tax levy tax rate increase excuse me that was passed on Monday we have a motion we have a second on that all the person seconded that okay right now we will limit the discussion to strictly this amendment anybody speaking on this amendment Alderman Hammond no I saw you turned off your light oh I'm sorry I meant to turn it off I know it's still blinking yeah I know I can only let people talk so much I have to ignore you occasionally instead of I lost my train of thought which is a pretty short train tonight anyways but I appreciate what Alderman Renflesh is doing his intent I can't support that you know when we put together the budget on Monday night and we've been working on it over the last couple months what we were trying to do is is look at the core services that we need to fund and keeping the police officers on the street everybody's familiar with the fire fire department issue keeping as many DPW people as possible and then again giving the library enough cash to be able to do the things they need to do and not one penny more at this point and that's what this budget does yes does it unfairly say to one department you get a hundred and forty thousand of levy and you guys were not raising the levy to do it absolutely but unfortunately you know everything is not always equitable so I wouldn't be in a position to support that I think the budget we've laid out is a good one and I would thank you Alderman Hammond Alderman Samson okay thank you Mr. Mayor okay just for clarification with Alderman Renflesh's proposal we are keeping the amended budget the way Alderman Hammond basically Alderman Renflesh's amendment is to just that only taking the tax rate increase off correct and the purpose for that tax rate increase was for the discussion about the library correct right takes off the 140 140 thousand 500 increase in levy to go the library okay so we're taking the six cents right now with this amendment the library does not close down completely if we did not vote to fund the full three hundred thousand dollars it stays open they have to make a few cuts and reposition hours it's not completely closed down that is our understanding okay okay so we're removing the six cents from that we're going back for the original amendment okay thank you thank you Alderman Samson Alderman Raceler thank you Mr. Mayor I guess the one problem I have with the whole thing of the right flesh is that we could very easily have taken were the any of the ones that we added in and said library and taken the tax increase to fund that so it could have been for the police it could have been for the fire we're making the tax rate increase to fund the whole budget so to say to put all the onus on the library and say it's only for the library I think is unfair I think we're doing it they're still taking 150 thousand dollar hit and reducing some of the services they have because of the furlough days again I think it's unfair to do I think you could take any one of these out and say it's for the police for the fire not necessarily for the library thank you Alderman Raceler Vice President Rindfelsch thank you to clarify that the comments all around are excellent and I agree with most of them I think the budget as amended last time on Monday provides a working budget you know it's probably a good one it's one I can't support because I can't support tax level increase if we're not increasing for all other departments but the point of my amendment is because we have to pass a budget this evening and the budget pass as amended with nine votes two of those votes have already indicated they're not supporting the budget that doesn't pass the budget so my attempt is with us with this is to go back to the original amendment as brought forth by Alderman Hammond to the committee the whole and voted on first at the first meeting on Monday because that's something I can't support so again my attempt isn't to say which is better which is not which department which is not my attempt is to get a budget that passes this evening and I understand that the the to all the person that voted against it will probably still vote against it but it's a budget that I can vote for as the mayor had said that if you need to pass a budget this evening and I'm going to take my neck out there and say this is a budget that I can switch my no vote to a yes vote with to perhaps counteract those that are going to vote against it now it's respectful comment it's respectful motion because people have the reasons for voting yes or voting no it's just that this is one option that we can to pass a budget it's one that I can support thank you thank you Alderman Rindflesh and like I said before if people are not cannot vote for this budget as is any suggestions that you have any amendments you would like to make to get a budget that is more to your liking please bring them forward Alderman Samson thank you mr. Mayor just just to clarify Alderman Rindflesh I was also one of those folks who could not report the tax rate increase so I'm not changing my vote from that from my last vote thank you thank you Alderman Samson okay I have no more lights this will be a vote on Alderman Rindflesh's amendment which states that the amendment to remove the tax levy increase that I'll actually read what you did on Monday night to amend to use funding option for which is on Alderman racer sheet along with tax levy increase of six cents per thousand or equivalent of six dollars per $100,000 home was passed on call the rule we are reversing that and I vote would be to reverse that library amendment that was made the other evening Alderman Barnes so this is only this is only on the amendment is only on the amendment about the library so in other words if we vote if we vote yes on this if you vote if you vote yes on this it would remove the option brought forth by Alderman Racler okay I got it to raise the tax levy to fund the library is what it would do so if we vote yes what we did the other night for the library goes away yes okay thank you is there any further discussion roll call please cock I Kittleson no Montemay or no Rindflesh I racer no Samson I van der wheel I versi I longamen no boron no Bowers no Hammond no Hannah no excuse me no and Heidemann no five eyes nine nose motion fails we are back to the original amended budget now we've had several alderman say that they do not will not vote for this budget I would like you to bring forth any ideas any amendments that you may have to get a budget here this evening that you can vote for it's easy to say no but it's hard to come up with solutions that you can say yes to so please ring on in give me some ideas Alderman Hammond thank you Mr. Mayor I feel like a yo-yo all of a sudden I guess I'd just like to make a comment and I appreciate the alderman Samson's concern about raising the tax levy and I would completely agree with you if it was a situation where we've been doing this year after year after year after year after year but we have for the last five years is my understanding we haven't raised the levy at all and the truth of it is at some point cost of services do go up regardless of whether you're in a service or a manufacturing business and yes this is a tax increase but I think at least from what I'm hearing talking with constituents and also the emails I've been getting from from a throughout the city people don't have a horrible horrible problem with this one they think it's a responsible and reasonable tax increase and I think again if we had been doing this year over year over year I completely agree with you but once in five years you know I think it should be once in six years I think it's a responsible tax increase thank you Alderman Hammond Alderman Samson thank you mr. Mayor as much as I would like to agree with that I still don't believe that this is the time at all to do that not to keep throwing the wrench in there and I just don't think this is the right time to start doing that because again what happens next year what happens the year after yes they're all what ifs but you're not fixing the problem which ultimately comes down to spending if we just bump taxes a little bit here and there where does it stop who's going to stop that train from rolling to be honest with you we got to do it at some point we have to take some accountability for it I'm not against the library I'm not against funding all these folks I just I was hopeful that there were some other ways with the inner workings of all the departments to maybe find other areas of in of money to cut back not necessarily from people service side of things the employees but I was hoping that there were other areas within the budget that could be cut for other other other things that is Alderman Samson that's how we basically came up with this budget was finding a lot of those cuts in various department there was no way to find initial three hundred thousand to satisfy folks in the library so it was it was pretty drastic from the one point seven down to what we ended up with in a very short period of time it just seemed as we were throwing around tax levy increase tax levy increase and all of a sudden we went from a one point seven million dollar deficit to something far far less with with a lot of numbers crunching and moving some things around without a tax rate increase so if there was a possibility of maybe going a little bit farther with an additional three hundred thousand dollars in other areas to save I would this problem may please please Alderman Hammond jump right when you take you know as we were putting this together when is you take from something it's a zero you know you've got it if you give the something you got to take from something so if you look at what we've done we didn't fund a city development director you know four people out of the public works so if we take three hundred thousand from somewhere pick that somewhere which is usually probably going to involve people it's got to give it to somebody it's got to come from somewhere and in my opinion and I've looked through this thing probably at nauseam again there's probably places yes we could cut six jobs or three jobs out or four jobs more out of DPW and give it to the library but now we now don't we don't have four DPW workers again it's it's got to come from somewhere this budget has four less DPW workers than it had in 2010 you know and for the record DPW has almost 50% less employees or half the employees they had back in the mid eighties so it's not like the city has always been exorbitantly spending money I think we've been trying to be fiscally responsible around here year after year after year eventually you get to the point where you're in the service business and you cannot provide services it's not like the city has been it has been fiscally irresponsible over the last five years when we have not moved the tax levy so I'm just saying right now to vote against a what I think is a logical budget for the sake of trying to get more union concessions when it's not a bargaining year or you know I think at this point like I said people have other suggestions something that myself for director of Modi over in Hammond didn't notice going through this entire budget and believe me I didn't just work on this thing for an hour or two it's been a long process please come up with those suggestions Alderman mercy thank you there is one service the city does have that actually does self-fund itself and has the opportunity to do so which is the ambulance fund question for Alderman Hammond or director Modio on where that original money comes from to fund the ambulance fund is it not taken out of general fund money is to begin with and then if so if you do not take it out of the general fund and you take back the $359,000 that contributes to the general fund you're still have a gain of over $200,000 to you if they self-fund themselves for one year they're making more revenues we have a new billing service doesn't bring in more revenue so they're going to clear what they have here so they have the opportunity which is our only city service that could potentially sell fund itself for our year and if it's that much better it could continue to do so but that's where there's $200,000 that can go back to other uses which would be the library DPW and anybody else but with this budget here all we're looking at is the library funding well you would have that $200,000 if you would work on that fund alone which is self-funding itself the money from the ambulance fund the the revenue generated by the ambulance goes back into the general fund I understand and that's only $359,000 out of $881,000 where does the money come with come from the begin with Jim time with the seed money where does where does their money come from the where does it originate from could you repeat the question the original line item that you have here you have your $359,000 which is contributed back to the general fund okay you take that off the 881 you still have $500,000 sitting there where does that $500,000 come from comes from the comes from the revenue that's collected there's 800 and something thousand dollars of revenue that's collected in the ambulance fund okay 500,000 pays the expenses 300,000 is transferred to the general fund as the transfer into the general fund that supports other costs and expenses in the fund to balance it so no money is taken from anywhere to begin with to fund this budget correct so they're they're paying as earned as they're making the money they're paying their own budget well they've got some cash on hand which they use to fund themselves just like every other special revenue fund does thank you Jim thank you Alderman all the person Kath I would like to make a motion to amend resolution 129 dash 10 dash 11 I would be okay with the tax rate increase to 12 cents per 1000 with 6 cents to the original public library number 4 and the other 6 cents towards a full-time city administrator okay Julie want to repeat that again please to increase the tax rate to 12 cents per 1000 6 cents towards the original plan the public library and 6 cents the tax rate for a full-time city administrator that's a great idea we must remember that the council just voted to file a document that came out of salary and grievances to fund a city administrator but do we have a second on that we have a second second for discussion we have a second now I am going to okay where where are we at here we we're working on the original document this is the first amendment to raise the tax rate by 12 cents to fund a city administrator and the library on that subject only although I'm going to turn off all the lights and Alderman Rindflash you wanted to speak on that yes sir thank you it's no surprise I wholeheartedly support hiring a city administrator in the city I think though based on my current my previous comments that I'm not willing to raise the taxes for one department and and not for all those need to be funded I'll actually vote against that the tax will be increased for that purpose I think Alderman Cotth for looking at creative ways of perhaps having this position that may help us in the long run with the budget problems we're having but I think it's it's it's not an appropriate time at this point in time looking at funding other items in the city thank you thank you Alderman Rindflash is there any more discussion on this issue there is no real call vote please an I vote will raise the tax levy to 12 cents six or raise the tax rate an additional 12 cents 6 cents going to the library 6 cents going to the city administrator Alderman Bowers did you want to discuss that I think you just explained what it was and this is to increase the tax levy correct 12 cents our city administrator library 6 cents for the library 6 cents for the city administrator it's an amendment to the budget so that's the increase yes okay Kittleson no Montemay or no Rindflash no Racler no Samson no Vanderweal no Jersey no Wongamon no foreign no Bowers no Hammond no Hannah no Heidemann no and cut I motion phase one eyes when I 13 nose okay getting back to we're still on the original budget document I don't believe we have any amendments pending right now correct correct so we're discussing the original budget document Alderman Bowers please thank you I'd like to call your attention to billing inspection this is I believe expenditures only 467 thousand 659 now I've worked with the Billion Inspection Department we increase these rates last year and I think I don't have in front of me in a budget but I recall we estimate revenues of 503 thousand this I think is a little low I think we can easily approach summer between 550 and 600 thousand since the budget is predicated on estimates I think we very easily could up the the estimate for revenues to between 550 and 600 thousand because of the increase in various billion inspections and construction and electrical permits and things like that so if it's possible I would like to bend the revenue and a billion inspection to 600 thousand because we're basically everything on an estimate anyway right like and fines paid collected yeah that's that that could be a a guesstimate I'd like director of Modio to speak on that building inspection is one department right now that is being close because we made a huge cut in building inspection as far as personnel we also raised some of our fees that is being close to a self-supportive department as far as fees equaling as far as revenue equaling expenditures but I would like to speak I have director of Modio speak as far as revenues second to just open it up now we have a motion to raise potential revenue and building inspection or estimated revenue to 600 thousand dollars is there a second we're I don't have Alderman born thank you mayor what are we what are we projecting for revenue now I don't have my that's what I'm asking director of Modio all right well much of an increase with the key dash 32 page building inspection is it 427,000 for revenue last year we had budgeted 396,870 we looked along at heart at this and with the way the economy is we've seen decreases in permitting and new new home construction so we felt that this was more in line rather than taking an aggressive approach we took an aggressive approach in 2010 especially in light of the economy with interest income and we're significantly below that this year also with the intent to sell a lot of the city property land and buildings that we own and to date we sold very little so I think this is a real list a more realistic picture than assuming that we're gonna have a better economy next year I checked with billion inspection is October 1st we had already collected $503,000 I think we need to note a building inspection fees went up I think May 1st of this year yes April 1st April 1st April 1st we did have a big flood of applications before the fees all went up and we are ahead of last year's what we collected last year and we're only looking at eight months of increased fees this year I've got when I handed these out I've got the actual expenditures for I'm sorry actual revenue through ten months for building inspection and it's three hundred and fifty nine thousand seven hundred and ninety dollars and sixty two cents what would submit it to me was five hundred three thousand so I mean I'd have to see where you got okay information from right all the numbers all right that was what was given to me by Tracy it's a little too late now to come up but if you say they're only three hundred some thousand I say five hundred and three thousand it's too late to amend it because you're saying they're below last year three hundred and fifty nine thousand against the three hundred and ninety six thousand dollar budget okay through ten months five hundred three okay do you withdraw that amendment well I have to withdraw because I don't have anything to back it up as of right now very good Alderman Raceler we are still working on the original document now we have no amendments I guess I just like to point out I think everyone's aware of it the county raises it the tax 2.6 some percent we all know LTC we know the school system raised it I think the six cents is less than a percent on 20 21 million yeah obviously it's less than way less than that we're less less than everyone else I know we're the last ones to do this and I don't think that it's fair to say the city shouldn't raise their tax rate a little bit based on the fact that again we happen to be the last one thank you Alderman Raceler thank you mayor I got a question for Mr. Amorio if we would have gotten a concession from the police union on a salary freeze for next year what would that have amounted to and also for the fire department I believe the fire department gave it for next year and it was a hundred thousand dollars Alderman born and it would probably be close to the same for the police department that would have been that would have been the if they would have agreed to a pay freeze it would have been a hundred thousand per department the fire department gave a hundred thousand dollars for 2011 that was part of the August of this year's agreement so they gave their wages back to medical benefits for 2011 the fire department did the police department didn't give anything back for 2011 if they were to the roughly the same salary size as the fire department so to be between a hundred hundred and ten grand for a wage freeze it was my under if I could continue please do I'm the I'm of the understanding from some reliable sources that the the police the police officers union was willing to do a pay freeze for 2011 however they were not allowed to vote on it I'm not privy to those negotiations but I'm just wondering whether it would be whether it would be feasible to approach them again and possibly the fire department maybe for some additional some concessions for 2011 I realize we're at the 11th hour but I don't think our HR director is here tonight so I can't ask him I guess mayor I'd have to ask you do you think it's a totally dead issue or do you think it would we should approach approach the unions again with the Thanksgiving coming here in another three hours and 40 minutes or four hours and 40 minutes and with Friday being a holiday a city the city hall is closed on Friday we're all the way to Monday the budget is due to the county Wednesday morning I don't think we're going to get negotiations open solved signed in a budget before then so I would say at this point it is a dead issue let me say we did sit down with the police department union representatives and it is not a contract here it's very hard to get concessions also when we are basically playing it out in the media the way that it was it was done if you have certain people in the city that are trying to try to negotiate in the media you're not going to get it and so they they basically said they didn't want to open their contracts at this point so that's that's where it's at and it's it's not going to be solved between now and in next Wednesday morning Alderman Rindflash thank you mr. Mayor furthermore if I were a member of those unions or departments I would not be willing to as much as it pains me to say give up anything especially considering the conversations about taking money from one department and giving it to the library and I think it's unreasonable of an expectation to think that they're going to open that up willingly to do so unless again all departments are affected then I think it might be willing to do so but it's clearly shown that this by doesn't seem to want to affect every department the same thank you thank you're Alderman Rindflash other person want to mayor thank you mr. Mayor Alderman Alderman if we vote yes only on the perfect budget in our own mind we will never ever ever have a budget we've worked hard we've made concessions we've made adjustments we it isn't the perfect budget as far as I'm concerned or any of you but if we only vote on a perfect budget we'll never have a budget ever in the history of the city so I urge you to yes vote on this budget that has been manipulated and maneuvered and massaged to get everything as much as we can for most of the people I urge you to go ahead and do that our job is to do the best for the most if we want to do perfect it won't happen thank you all the person monster me or I think you made a very good point there it's all about compromise this is you know we are to the point here and I think I have no lights lit here I think we should take a vote on this budget if it passes it passes if it fails I think we're going to take about a five minute break and we're going to start over again so I would like to call for a roll call vote and I vote will pass the budget as amended as is in the documents okay roll call please Hanna I Heidemann no cock no Kittleson I Montemay or I Rindflash no Racler I Samson no Vanderwheel I versey I Wongamun no Warren no Bowers no Hammond I okay motion fails I'm going to call for a five minute it has to be a majority nine of the council I can't break any ties on this one I'm calling for a five minute recess I urge everybody to put some thought into the process if you're not satisfied with this budget I'm looking for suggestions here I thought it was a pretty good budget the other night obviously change their minds all the person monster may or before we recess please thank you and I do think we need to recess please the no votes please reconsider please reconsider for the good of the citizens for the good of the council for the good of Sheboygan please reconsider or if you if you can't reconsider and can't live with this budget please come up with some constructive suggestions we will break for let's make it 10 minutes we will reconvene at 2529 okay folks if we can all take our seats okay we are back to the original document any suggestions are more than welcome I have no we're back to the original amended document we're back to nothing but we're about to solve that we're back to nothing all the member inflation make a motion to reconsider the previous vote second second we have a motion and a second to reconsider the previous vote vote on the amended document all the person cough second of it and just for a question from the term McLean the document obviously is seven seven nothing happened there is it's a proper to make the motion this time to reconsider yes my motion to reconsider my thoughts on fairness hasn't changed for the departments my thoughts where I stand on funding departments versus other departments you know the whole books versus cops hasn't changed however we need to get a budget done I think it's the best that we can accomplish at this point in time so I'm willing to switch my vote for the betterment that we can move forward to the city and as you Mr. Mayor had stated previously in other meetings that we're going to be sitting down as strategic fiscal planning committee December 1st which is next Wednesday and I think we can avoid some of these issues that I have right now in the future so thank you thank you Alderman Renflex Alderman Hannah thank you Mr. Mayor I was thinking about the the comments that some folks had about raising taxes and opening the floodgates and being concerned about that and we look back in the last five years and we've we've held the line on the tax rate but I think really we've cut taxes I think what people forget is we eliminated the wheel tax we eliminate the stormwater tax that was about 1.8 million dollars between those two dollars in taxes we repealed and and turn that back so it's better than just keeping things the same the last five years we've actually reduced taxes and I don't think any of the other taxing entities in the county can say that that they've moved back the way we have so I just I hope people understand that we have been frugal and this is a relatively small increase taking over the last five years it's it's very small but it gets us to a working budget and as as all the person want to put it out nobody's gonna want a perfect part of any budget we just have to learn to live within it work hard on the strategic fiscal planning committee so that we we can make some changes going forward incorporate the ideas that Alderman Bourne has with regard to when the contracts are open and we can get down to good faith bargaining and he's absolutely right we don't know what the landscape is gonna be like in Madison we have to make a decision almost in a vacuum with what we do know tonight so I urge you to support them support the budget thank you all to manhanna president kiddlesen oh yes and I find words from Alderman Hannah I we as he said the wheel tax is gone the stormwater fee is gone those were things that really help to mend the holes in our budget so I I too I would encourage Alderman please rethink your position on this and vote for this budget and know that I'm pleased that our strategic fiscal planning committee will meet next week and we'll get going on planning for the future here thank you thank you president kiddlesen Alderman thank you very good discussion I'm going to be changing my vote as much as I'd like to see a full-time city administrator in the city of Chicago again I will be voting on this thank you all to person kath Alderman Samson nothing okay I'm out of lights up out here we're going to take a vote to reconsider the last vote on the so the reconsider first and then we vote correct roll call please a yes vote will be to pass the budget and no no yes vote just really just reconsider to reconsider okay I'll vote to reconsider the vote this will be a vote to reconsider a yes vote will be to reconsider the prior vote roll call please kiddlesen I Montemay or I rin flesh I raceler hi Samson hi Vander wheel hi Percy hi Longman hi born hi Bowers hi Hammond hi Hanna hi Heidemann hi and cop hi 14 eyes okay now we are back to the original document as amended we need a motion we need a motion we need a motion thank you mayor I would make the motion to put the red document 15 dash 32 resolution number 129 dash 10 dash 11 as amended upon its passage second we have a motion and a second to put the document resolution as amended upon its passage thank you president kiddlesen roll call please Montemay or I rin flesh hi raceler hi Samson no Vander wheel hi versi hi Wongman no Warren hi Bowers no Hammond hi Hanna hi Heidemann no cop hi kiddlesen hi 10 eyes for nose motion carries thank you everybody we have a motion to adjourn everybody have a happy Thanksgiving