 Hi, so welcome to another 40T Courses podcast, and for the first time this year huge warm welcome back to the person here we all love the most, Rory Southerland. Rory, thank you so much for joining us Yeah, we just thought we'd say hi catch up nudge stocks on its way So we thought we could have a little chat about that and just before the call started we were just chatting about AI, which Which obviously features in Lansdok, because it's mandatory And I think it's right to be both enthused by it because Well-directed well aligned AI, which is genuinely aligned with human interests The famous question in AI is the alignment problem Which is that we don't we don't even know what we're trying to optimise ourselves Okay, so programming a device To effectively improve human quality of life without that device somehow Acquiring kind of you know bizarre notions of its own You know is difficult enough at the best of times um And um, so you know, I think we're right for all kinds of reasons to be concerned about this, which is that um you know, you you We tick baits, which is generally I think still generated by humans for the most part Uh, you know, there is the power just through what you might call incredibly accelerated evolution Uh for AI to develop the you know techniques of extreme manipulation for example Yeah, um And that's only I mean, I you know, I think that's possibly that although it could lead in politics It could have absolutely catastrophic effects But there's something there that is is definitely alarming now. We made the theme of that stop this year by the way about messiness And one of the things this applies to AI as well by the way is one of the skills We think particularly valuable in behavioral science is Being comfortable not knowing or being comfortable Existing in a state of uncertainty Right for a reasonable length of time Yeah, typically beyond the deadline by the way, you know, I think that's a message both for behavioral science I think it's a message for solving problems in a complex domain I think it's a message also for creativity in general in fact Which is that I think one of I started reframing the question about creativity And I started asking a different question Which is instead of how can we get more creativity isn't creativity wonderful wouldn't it be lovely if we just had 5% more? It's to ask the opposite question Which is why is it that people are so comfortable being uncreative and going with any solution that seems logical Even though better solutions almost certainly exist. So in other words, what I'm looking at is uncreativity and why it is that institutions Seem to reward people for being uncreated and I think the reason is that Nobody in modern business can actually make a decision on their own They'll always have to confer with finance and eagle HR or whatever Which means they're going to win an argument. I don't actually make it. I'm the vice chairman of ogre I don't actually make any decisions at all. All I can do is make a case to somebody And in the act of making a case to somebody you've got to make it Comprehensible simple linear numerical Quantifiable, okay It's and the only things on which you can draw on for arguments are those things which effectively fit neatly into a spreadsheet or a model Now when we make decisions as consumers, I think we're instinctively quite creative because we actually We we think about things uh Effectively we somehow manage to resolve things which are not commensurable Right, I always give this example But I had to drive to gatchwick the day before yesterday And it was the old story Which is I went on the back road even though the sat nav wanted me to go on the m25 And the reason I went on the back road is because although it's slower There's lower variance or there's lower downside variance in other words if the m25 clogs up I missed my plane If I go on the a 25 I might have to run to my plane or I might have quite a lot of time to spare But I'm very unlikely to miss it Right because I have both less variance in journey time and more optionality should things go wrong And we somehow manage as humans um To make the trade-off between speed and variance or indeed, you know Do I want to save five minutes by going on a least certainly less scenic route? Or do I even take a slower route where I keep moving in preference to a faster route? Where I'm stationary for 15 minutes, you know, we somehow manage to make those decisions as humans Embracing a lot of effectively incomparable data and thoughts Which are impossible to make both in programming and in making an argument Yeah, because an argument has to have a QED It has to have a single right answer And we're generally operating in a domain as marketers where there's more than one right answer There are many right answers. There are also answers which are less good in one Specific way, but might be more interesting For example, you might make a trade-off between doing something logical sensible and boring and doing something slightly less logical It's even slightly less effective in one sense in one dimension But actually simply more interesting And I I guess technology is often made to optimize situations But actually we don't we don't often want to optimize it or the optimization might not be our best It's optimizing the wrong thing or it's optimizing too few things and some of the AI Doomsayers who I think have this phrase where they call it the is it the golem or something that Let's say you have let's say you have a decision or a design or a product, okay? Which contains 27 variables? Right and you optimize for 19 of them It is an almost inevitable consequence that the eight remaining variables Which you haven't factored into your model will become worse as a consequence of of maximizing on the remainder And may become worse to the point of becoming absolutely terrible Okay So, you know, if you imagine a car, which was designed solely for performance It would have a pulling fuel economy Okay, and if you add a design that was the car that was designed solely for fuel economy It would have a pulling performance Yeah, okay, and so if we If we stand that upwards Wherever we're optimizing for a problem where Essentially, we don't have access to can't quantify or indeed can't influence A certain number of the relevant variables and therefore we just optimize for the remainder The odds are that it's a bit like, you know It's a bit like smoothing down wallpaper that the bubbles move somewhere else and become larger and worse Yeah And I can see that happening in all kinds of AI problems because it can only optimize for and consider the things It's been told to look at And there may be elements that are hugely important to humans which can't actually be expressed Never mind in numbers. They can't even be expressed in words necessarily Right And so I think there is something that you know, there is something to be alert to about messiness Which is something about the human brain is quite clever in that it will immediately spot Well largely spot I would argue there are cases where it doesn't You know the higher education problem for example in the uk I don't think we spotted because we just went all education is good education adds value And it's indeed true that at an individual level it's better to be educated than not to be educating But nobody asked the question. But what happens if you educate everybody? Do you just create an insane kind of arms race where now, you know You you you barely raise an eyebrow unless you've got at least a phd No You know or do you end up with a world where nobody actually enters the workforce until they're 35 because they're so busy Accumulating qualifications to get them that best entry-level job Even though in that job four years later. No one gives a shit. What qualifications they got in the first place Yeah, and why is it that hr are so keen to use graduate degrees as a sorting hat Where actually there's not much evidence. There's all that much correlation between academic performance and workplace performance You know, but but there are cases I think where humans completely miss this that we have effectively becomes fixated on one metric To the to the exclusion of anything else and it leads to grotesque distortion hyper competition Um, you know over exaggerated behaviors gaming of the system all kinds of things like that Now most of the time humans spot not all the time because as I said, I don't think we have in in education, for example But most of the time humans spot the fact that when they spot the moment when pursuing an apparently logical end Leads to absurd consequences You talked a little bit earlier about how um, you're saying even though you're the vice chairman It's it's uh, it's really hard sometimes to make decisions by yourself. You're often As a result, we optimized for winning arguments not for making decisions I wonder if I don't think it's true to say that the best reasoned course of action Is necessarily the best course of action by the way I wondered whether you'd had a good chat with uh, with friend jules goddard on that Uh, and uh, and messiness and creativity in the workplace because Well, I mean the interesting thing with creativity is that you have an opportunity to be creative every time you make a decision Which is to take the habitual logical or normative best practice decision Yeah, and simply ask if you can do better Okay Well, we've created a world in business where something that seems to make sense Is assumed to be therefore rational and is assumed therefore to be right Now actually, you know, I mean I was just looking at the wpp travel policy the other day and I thought well An accountant has come up with this which is you know, you can travel first class on a train journey of three hours or more You know depending on the duration of your flight this determines Well, yeah, okay, I mean sort of you know, but then I said well Here you had an opportunity to actually reward length of service with ogle v Where you say, you know in other words after you've worked with ogle v for x years You get to fly in a slightly better class a piece of the playing Okay, there was a famous dot com company which did that and they had their annual meeting And the office manager flew out in first class because she'd been there since the company was founded And the chief executive flew at the back of the plane because he'd only just shot But you know, there's an opportunity there to do more work With what you're given So, you know, what you've done is you turn this into a policy simply through the lens of kind of acceptable cost control But you have and this is the question. I met a wonderful woman who did partnerships for UNESCO And she was given a load of crocs basically to give away to kids And what was interesting is that perfectly logically you could have just given them to people without shoes, okay No, no one would fire you for that. No one would say what an unimaginative dull thing to do But she had a bigger idea She went and gave them to schools and said give the kids crocs on their first day at school Because then they'll go back home and all the other kids who didn't go to school on the first day Will go where did you get those shoes? They give them to you when you go to school Maybe six more kids go to school to get their free crocs. Now they're habituated around going to school They've shown themselves now once you've done that is you have done the first job Which is providing foot protection to people with those shoes Which have all kinds of benefits in and of itself, but you've also killed two birds with one stone You've got it to do double duty You know the smarter kind of millionaire doesn't give money to charity The smarter millionaire says i'll promise to match donations up to you know, one million dollars Because that way you get two million dollars for the cost of what? And no one no one really looks at the uncreative solution Uh with any kind of dissatisfaction because and our agencies have probably made this worse because they've sold creativity as something rare and mysterious I don't think it is. I think most people have the power If they create the right environment and if they operate in the right context in the right culture I think most people have the power to make every decision 25 better. He said better than it needs Yeah, I love the school example that reminded me a bit of the sort of Nine enders, uh, that I think Richard Shoften talks about a lot, you know, the sort of If you're in if you're if you're 29 or 39, you're much more likely to take up a new habit Uh, or run a marathon. Ah, yes. I remember this. Yeah Yeah, it's like sort of one of those kind of key moments where if you If you make an intervention at one point it can have a a ginormous ripple effect Fun enough. I remember Martin Sorrell saying the same thing that he wondered whether he needed a policy for I think it might have been 49 year olds or something Because he noticed a whole load of people. It was definitely the 39 or 49 And because he noticed a whole load of people having a kind of career crisis Precisely at that point Did he do anything or I can't remember he only mentioned it as a as a hypothetical this was years ago But uh, I always thought it was an interesting insight then and he'd obviously got the data as a spot, you know Just spot that this was happening. Did you get to catch up with him at Cannes? I didn't see him. Unfortunately. No, um I obviously saw mark quite a bit. Yeah, but I I never made it to the media monks cafe And they're uh, they're fun bar. I think they did that last year as well. It's brilliant. Um, so with going back to that stock Are there any um, any With sort of favorite speakers much like we've got data visualization. We've got uh, auditory branding Uh, we've got Mary Anne seek how we got paul zack who does um a neuroscientist who also measures emotional response Yeah, which I think is genuinely important because Finally we might start to get metrics. I mean not we've had sort of galvanics film response and all that sort of stuff for a while Yeah, but it is interesting the idea that you can properly quantify Um emotional responses in a sense it's the emotional response that determines the behavior Yeah, I mean, I think I don't get me wrong. I think it's mediated by rational evaluation But I think ultimately unless you feel emotionally predisposed to doing something Um, you can have all the reasons in the world. You're still not going to do it Yeah, yeah makes a lot of sense um and with the You when we talked a little bit about ai were there any other sort of big big key things you were finding at uh Can this year of that this sort of being uh, I was surprised there was less than I expected about apple vision Okay, which may simply be a factor of time, which is that apple vision only came out a few weeks before the first And that to me the dog that doesn't bark in the night every time is the mention of zoom and video conferencing and um Uh used generated video and obviously tiktok was very much an evidence. That was youtube and particularly tiktok um But my point is that I would argue that in any b2b context Okay, which includes being an advertising agency Yeah, the potential offered by Everything from webinars to zoom meetings in other words to export your skills to markets that Previously you couldn't really practically serve or it was simply too risky to pitch to So I would have the potential to rework how you work in teams so that ogle v Can finally deliver the promise of what we call long corridors, you know Where whichever country you're in you behave as though you're all on the same corridor I but I think there's a faddish thing which is that ai there was less talk by the way Less talk about the metaverse Yeah a lot, uh than anyone would have expected Which is possibly because people realized it might have slightly jumped the shark in terms of the hype cycle Yeah Um, but I there was much less about the metaverse. There was nothing much about apple Uh vision And that as I said apple vision only really got launched one Two weeks maybe even less before First class air travel uh alternative Give uh, if you if you want a really good feeding you can give you the two the two senior people Just send them an apple vision What well you could have an apple vision in economy which recreated the feeling of a of a of a first class cabin I didn't have a conversation in can because I wasn't entirely sure Uh, and I'm still not entirely sure that the thing needs to be 3d I can see the value of something it could even be a monocle and or a google glass like thing Which effectively gives you the portable equivalent of a 55 inch screen or a 65 75 inch screen Yeah, one of the simplest simplest product it was very interesting that very few companies actually it seemed to encourage this One of the simplest ways to improve your productivity massively is to use multiple large monitors It has a spectacular effect on people's productivity And so the only question I asked was does this need to be 3d? Okay, and my friend uh, who uh previously worked for gymshark and before that for nike My friend said there is one killer application for 3d, which is certain sports So the ability to watch a cricket match as though you were the umpire Or to watch a basketball match as though you had real um courtside seats. Okay Okay Um, and the ability just to move around if you wanted to and watch the sporting event from different angles particularly if live That I can see as being potentially, you know, kind of killer application Um, there are still wide open questions about how long people will wear it for Whether a Scott galloway believes you simply become awkward and feel threatened if you lose your peripheral vision Um, how does it work in video conferencing? In other words, how does it fit in my face? Does it do the last visually using effectively some sort of? You know device that recreates my eyes And somehow animates them appropriately Well, it's got enough cameras to do that and enough processing power certainly it does that already You have to scan using an iphone Uh, your face and then it creates a 3d model of it. So when you're speaking to someone else You have a 3d lifelike avatar That freaky apparently you can do that apparently with eye chat. I'm sure something Is that right? To a to a lesser degree. Yes, you agree Um, but I mean it's it's a fascinating time to be alive. I mean since Since you've joined the market the the marketing world of the advertising world technology has Changed an awful lot. I mean, I guess uh Out of all the things you've you've witnessed changing so far What are the things that have remained constant? And perhaps what's the one thing that you think is you're you're really happy that has changed? One thing that I'm mixed about Which again, I don't think gets commented on enough Is in the last 10 to 15 years The extraordinary dominance of english as a language treat, yeah which With a few exceptions and ironically the countries in europe, italy, spain, germany, france, which which which um dub rather than subtitling Films a decision by the way that was taken in about 1929 Which country is dub and which country is subtitle and it's actually a very sticky decision because People get used to one or the other and whereas in britain we regard dubbing as Absolutely comically set for cartoons obviously where everything's dubbed anyway Um, I mean, you know in other countries they find subtitles unbelievably painful But that's that's something i'm mixed about because obviously Individually and selfish down a beneficiary Okay, yeah, but the extent to which all conversations between all nationalities now take place in english That we're not just in can i mean just in the general business world Is something i'm a little bit upset about in a way because although i benefit personally as a native english speaker There's a bit of me which would value more biodiversity and such things a little bit um One of the other things i mean it there's one way of looking at the advertising industry which to say that Not much has changed, you know, you have the separation of media agencies Which i still maintain was a very silly idea I agree um, you had the shift from payment by commission to payment by the hour and um I suppose you also had a kind of rising procurement role But those are the three really really big things in terms of the business world the the biggest thing i think that i um That hasn't changed which should have changed is that agencies did not use Payment by the hour as an opportunity to fundamentally reinvent whom they engaged with What kind of problems they solved and how they approached problems because suddenly By being paid by the hour many in many many ways were far worse than commission all matter of ways But the one thing it allowed you to do was actually deploy creativity In situations where the solution didn't involve giving a lot of money to rip the bed off right And i think the muscle memory of agencies were so strong. They just kept on doing what they were doing The other thing i'd like to see more of which has died is i'd like to see more category advertising coming back Because i think things like environmentalism um, you know sustainable packaging things like that And fortunately the co-client agreed with me on this when i asked a question about it She agreed in saying that it will only really be achieved when you actually have, um consortia of conventionally competing brands All working to the same end and indeed communicating collectively So if you take let's say p and g versus unilever in the field of fabric conditioner, okay No one can be the person to go to concentrates first Because you you lose your facings you lose your prominence on the shelf You lose your perceived value for money by making the product smaller Therefore if one person jumps first the other person becomes a beneficiary So no one's going to jump so the ability of actually creating I would say multi-brand communication campaigns around things like environmental questions or indeed car electrification I don't think we're going to save the world one brand at a time And so that's another thing i'd like to see more of And the other thing I don't see enough of actually um is Well now I I don't see quite as many warm emotional campaigns that you know that sort of mass You know that tweak at your heartstrings. I don't think the use of music is as good as it could be things like that um But but the good thing I saw at tan, which I think we have to praise is that You know in the last Getting on for 10 years You know maybe okay, let's say 15 years it's gone from being a predominantly film festival with some press and outdoor To what is genuine the festival of creativity in that some of the best ideas that you know Were bubbling up in things like the titanium category weren't any communication ideas at all. They were just brilliant business ideas I was the dan wyden thing. He he was he identified That there was some advertising that that didn't fit into any traditional categories. So it was him who He wanted to create the or came up with the idea of creating a titanium award and and obviously with him passing Uh away earlier. They they named it after him now. So it's the dan wyden titanium Ah that you see because so john heggarty said the same thing But he said the most interesting work often defies easy categorization Right and one of the things having been on the jury myself. I mean jury president of the direct lions You will get Two or three people in the jury Sometimes I think it's an ulterior motion because they want to kill a bit of work for a competitor Okay Who become category purists and say this doesn't really belong in this category I think it really should be and sometimes by the way you have we have suggested When I was on the jury moving it to a different category because we thought it was mis-entered But it deserved recognition But you did get that problem famously going back to about I don't know 2001 or something with bmw films Yeah, which were I remember describing this to a younger audience which were Films which were uploaded to the internet for people to watch But you got to remember this was I guess pre-youtube or something I remember the old young eagle thinking what what what the hell are you talking about films uploaded to the internet for people to watch But bmw you've got great film directors or Guy Ritchie, etc to make short films with celebrities I think Guy Ritchie's speech and Madonna Which feature bmw's a case and the truth of the matter was no one knew where it belongs So if you're not careful you fall between two stools or slip between the cracks and the most interesting work Which quite often is at the intersection of two different things ends up not getting noticed And they've just relaunched a second version of bmw films this year So I think the how are they doing it there presumably I won't have to download the film No, no, no this yeah, because I think last time it was on the bmw website You had to go there and then and then got it downloaded or let it be how it's clivo in and I mean loads of amazing actors and directors it's incredible um I think you're right with the with the emotion thing. I think it I remember when I first sort of got into advertising and looked at lion's or pan it was always um There was lots of sort of uh, almost the stuff that was winning was often I don't know whether this is the a heinous thing to say almost too creative. It was sort of almost creativity for creativity sake Yes, and actually enough you can become You can almost become so creative that the um That that the audience no longer participates in your work It's work that's designed to be admired rather than work that moves And I think and there's great by the way great comment about that Which someone talked about when they talked about woke comedy. Okay They said that you And one of the things they noticed is that when you got comedians making political points Okay, which generally chimed with what their audience believed It wasn't met with laughter. It was met with applause And they said the trouble is as a comedian you're really supposed to be making people laugh not making people clap And I think there's work there that sometimes if you like makes people clap But it doesn't make people laugh or love or buy indeed and occasionally occasionally I get cross because there's a copywriter You know if I Let's say I open some piece of copy with if is the truth universally acknowledged. Okay Right, you know, I would immediately get shot down because people would say look only three percent of people know Jane Austen or whatever it might be or this is far too radio for for our target audience or blah, blah, blah, blah But sometimes you're allowed to rely on levels of visual literacy I mean, I have to confess every year it can that two or three ads where I just go and look at it and go Sorry, what am I missing here? You know, this is too you know This this is beautiful if you know if you know what you're looking for But if you're just on your way to work and it's a cross track, you haven't got the time to assume that it's a work of genius I think And and as a result there is work that having said that there are a lot of It's a much much better panoply of interesting and great ideas Than when it was confined to one medium Um, I know that the organist was partnering to that for reasons of self interest I'm sure but it has had good consequences in the creatives are now incentivized to have ideas not just to um, but I wouldn't mind the odd 1980s tv commercial nestling in there somewhere. I have to admit We we we made a uh a free course, um On celebrating 70 years of can lines So we went back into the archive and found ads from the 50s until today We found all the grand prize and we sort of put a selection of four or five of them in each of the lessons So you can see the evolution of advertising. I think my sort of overall was It started off a few interesting observations one was I think it was advertising back in the day um around sort of the 70s 80s seemed to be quite quite brilliant in my word that was that was probably my favorite and that It was quite clear that it was an ad and it was done with humor. It was done with emotion And then we kind of went super purpose driven And I I feel like now we're slowly going back to more emotive more Practical ads that actually try and help sell something but yeah, I thought the purpose of one of those things Which is it's quite good if it's your property, but if everybody else does it You end up basically saying the same thing I mean, it's worth noting that Winston Fletcher wrote a book back in the 80s called how to capture the advertising high ground Which was all about from promoting and owning a higher order benefit Right, and it's something that certain brand leaders I think can do Yeah, okay So as the brand leader you promote what you might like the highest order version of the category benefit Okay And you know nikey can kind of do that apple can kind of do it. Okay Um What you can't do is do that if you're number seven of the category You know if you're an also round a bit part player Um, you know in a in a way in kind of way, you know coke can do it dr. Peck of calms And I think you know, I think I mean dove did it but dove it was extremely relevant to the category Okay, it wasn't saying dove's gonna save the world It wasn't you know, it was simply saying that and it also it came out of what was different about the product The product was largely unscented unfussy. It was beauty without artifice So I think this is one stage the kind of defining property of the brand Hmm And therefore going against the what you might call the You know, the many many competitors of you know, hard core cosmetic competitors Was an entirely appropriate thing to do in that case and it was a big enough brand to carry it off Yeah, okay But but I but I think that purpose thing was a massive distraction to some extent because it actually led What was intended as a distinguishing characteristic led to all advertising becoming the same And you know to some extent not many brands have the license to tell me how to think And I'll you know, and so as a behavioral scientist, I'd also talk about things like reactance theory, which is that Some of those ads got the tonality right Okay, which is like we're helping you do this Okay, there were other ads probably the two most famous will be the Gillette one um, I don't think by the way, I don't accept the um The the call the the Bud Light one because that was a piece of of influencer marketing, which was I think Deliberately misrepresented by the right-wing press to stir up controversy By more or less suggesting that Dylan Mulvaney was the new face of Bud Light, which I know Yeah, it was it was simply a piece of influencer marketing. There was nothing more than that They'd produced some, you know cans in a small run with her face in it um And I think, you know, they managed to get people to who were in the willful misunderstanding business You know the selective outrage business um, but the Gillette thing was heavy I thought it was it was um Because that was getting to the point where you were actually doing the one thing you must never do Which is really to insult your target audience Yeah, that's an interesting that wasn't far from doing that, you know, what was your um Out of any ads either that you saw it can or just any any ads recently What's your sort of favorite ad that used a behavioral science insight? Very cleverly, um at all recently Oh, um Um in terms of ads um I think uh, there was a particularly good example. I'm just trying to which I saw the other day and I'm just trying to remember it um So being the one the the one where I in the last few years There's a beautiful one, which is a perfect case of reframing which was for reno electric cars um Which showed someone getting up in the morning and all their electrical devices being petrol powered So they kind of yeah, they they started their toothbrush as if it was a lawnmower and so forth um Uh, you know, that's a beautiful case where you simply make the absolutely Inarguable point that everything else that moves in your life has become electrified Okay, and therefore in your car and perhaps your lawnmower are the two, you know, are the two remaining anomalies Uh, and the only anomalies that remain So that was a brilliant case of reframing something to normalize it. I thought that was tremendous That's quite a few years ago now, but that it was just something that sprang to mind Because I've just been on a on a podcast about car electrification and the advertising challenge that poses um There is a fantastic case where I'm just trying to remember the details where the idea well, I'll give you a lovely case Which is pure alchemy, which is ogle v. Honduras There's a part of Honduras where for reasons I don't fully understand something during the water spouts fish falls from the sky Wow And the locals had always eaten these fish and just treated them very much as fish. It was a coastal area anyway And in working with a local, um Uh, uh, working with a local fish, um Trader market trader They rebranded it as heaven fish and charged a premium for it Which is, you know, I remember talking to a guy, uh, you know, exactly the same case where I remember talking to a guy where he, um Was selling bear bab from various zimbabwean farmers. You can't really farm bear ban So it's quite good because the village that has a lot of bear bab trees gains a source of income if you sell bear bab fruit And he happened to mention that some of the trees over a thousand years old And I said are you selling the fact the fruit from a thousand year old Trees alongside and mixing it up with the 300 year old trees. Yep. It's all the same bear bab. I said you're nuts Okay, anybody a pair premium And it's pure james web young what he did with apples. He bought an apple farm in um after he retired from jaywell thompson He bought an apple farm in new mexico But unfortunately at high altitude early hail storms in the season pitted the apples So no conventional buyer wanted to buy them and instead he sold them by mail order as authentic high altitude new mexico apples And he made the sort of golf ball pitting a feature not a bug And that's you know, that's uh those cases are wonderful cases where you know, I always thought, you know Anybody would anybody would kind of pair premium to know they were making a smoothie bear bab is pretty good for smoothies By the way making a smoothie with you know from a tree that was Effectively, you know sprouting somewhere in zimbabwe You know while jesus was alive You know, or or they'd pair premium, you know for pre-norban conquest bear bab, you know, you just wouldn't literally Uh, we'll we'll look at look for those Get some smoothies ready for nudge stock With a thousand year old, uh, baby jesus bear bab street and Um any uh any any I know it was running out of time but any Last words on yeah, um just to say, um That uh, we're more or less sold out of nudge stock tickets the physical tickets The whole advice is being streamed just go to nudge stock.com. You'll find all the details there Mandatory plug for the website I kick off the day. Um, there'll be a mixture of Me and dan and tara Um, uh, you know We'll we'll we'll all be presenting and hosting an mc in the event. Uh, there are eight to ten absolutely actually more than that, but absolutely fantastic speakers There's some fantastic businesses. We've got in to present Uh, it's probably this year is a bit more applicable and a bit less theoretical than in previous years Which is probably a response a little bit to consumer demand How marvelous and that and if you go there, we'll we'll see that too as well It'll be a joy. I'd love to see as many of you there as you possibly can Once again, it's at the truman brewery Let's get this right not the brewery. It's at the old truman brewery in bricklaying and foods by deschew I forgot to mention that because if there's no even if you have no interest in behavioral science whatsoever And you think we're all total bullshit as there's still food by the shum Enjoy that and thanks so much and uh, and yeah, uh, I'll chat to you soon always a pleasure chris absolute joy