 Alright, so we are recording now and I guess I'll just start us off. This is a meeting about the community themes initiative is a project where we want to like build WordPress themes under the WordPress username or specifically block themes. It'll be a similar process, I think, in terms of like, you know, community feedback, community involvement, and there'll be a GitHub repository which we'll share and it's hopefully just going to be a lot of fun. I am going to have Maggie's co-host with me and so she really knows more about the project, like I think she has a lot more ideas than I do, so I'm just like, do you want to, Maggie, do you want to just describe what you have in mind for the project? Yeah, yeah, sure. Think about when we all get together to do the default themes once a year and we all collaborate and learn from each other and build a really, really nice quality code block theme that goes into the into the world. Keep doing that all over the year so that we keep teaching and learning, doing more block themes together without the constraints of the deadline that a default theme has and all those yeah, having to meet that deadline, having to that pressure, also allowing to get this feedback loop into Gutenberg, both on issues that we find that blocks us from building better block themes and also when Gutenberg allows for new features we can build themes that use them and showcase them and then other people can look up to those block themes that we build as a group collectively and find something that is good quality that can be used as a reference and also get people who don't usually code into block theming because now you can do block themes without actually knowing how to go at all. I think this is a great place for people who like to learn by doing. Yeah, that's great. So we are, Damien has already had a question in the chat box. So the question is, since default themes usually have year naming convention, what convention shall we use for non-annual? Well, my opinion is that we can name it whatever we want, right? Yeah, it was just it was kind of a I don't want to get hung up on that. That's a small detail. It's fine. Well, that's great. I mean, those those questions are going to come up. Yeah, and this I don't see any reason to follow any specific convention. Just name it or whatever the theme review team rules are, you know, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Naming is hard. It's really hard. Yeah, yeah. Since the theme is not getting bundled into a release really or the themes, hopefully there will be more than one. Yeah, I don't think we need to constrain ourselves with any kind of naming convention, really, other than whatever is on the repo rules. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Naming is hard. I think Brian had a theme last year or the year before or something that was he had the entire design, all the screenshots and there are all the images right and then the name was unavailable, right? I remember it happened twice, by the way, I renamed it to something else and then I submitted and got rejected a second time. So I've done it three times. I think that got three names right at the end of the process. Yeah. Yeah. That's where good the source comes in handy. So just find something that works. So this is really just an open conversation about like this project. And so there's no small or two complex questions or, you know, that we can talk about. How many people here were involved in the 2023 like community themes? I know I know I submitted one anyway, but for those unfamiliar that was we shipped, I think, 10 style variations with 2023. And so the community could admit some people, but the community could submit their own designs for it. And that was like a really scale back version of this, which would be more geared toward like a full child theme. And realistically, a child thing could simply just be a style variation, you know, or just a custom theme.json. But you can also have your extra templates and functions, of course, to odyssey. But yeah, so let's Carolina says it's not allowed. I think you need an index.html template, right? At the very least. No, I'm saying that the reserving names, the team. Okay. Okay. The index file is no longer needed, but styles is a file. But yeah, team information, author, et cetera, that's it. Hey, quick question regarding the index file. Is that still required for parent child themes? I know a while back with powder, like I had to add, excuse me, add back the index file into the theme just because of the way the directory itself was set up, like it was working fine without it, like locally, but because some of the, and I know blockify was another theme that had lead, Lee had to do the same thing, just add the index file just to like pass some sniff test that the directory setup had. All right. PHP, I don't think so. Yeah, I'm actually trying to search for a ticket that there was an issue. I don't know about the directory. I know there was an issue with installing a zip file without the index.php, even though you could activate a theme. Yeah, you could activate it if it was already installed. It was a weird bug or something. But in terms of the directory, I don't know if that's still part of the sniffer or not. I can always remove the file, update the theme, and if it breaks, put it back in again. I was waiting for Lee to go first. I don't know, Carolina, I know you are still with the theme review team some. Do you know if that's still possible? I don't know if you're still kind of doing work there. It's not a big deal. I was just talking to somebody now. We don't have the waste time talking about it, but I'll just, I'll test it out. Mike McAllister, what's up, dog? I don't know. We're going to... Honestly, don't remember because I'll be focusing on Gutenberg now for so long. I remember there was a problem with team check, the plugin, which is used for the team directory, but that shouldn't affect local installations. But I remember we had to add the index file back to pass team check on upload. Yeah, separate issue. Yeah, just to be clear, we're talking about index.php. You have to have a template.index.html, of course, or otherwise you would have had the php file. I think Nick wants to say something. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so when thinking about this project, it got me thinking about beam iterations. We have 2023 and it's a great rock solid blockchain, but one of the things that I find when doing my training educational material, especially about adding functionality or restricting functionality. Is that me? No. I got it muted, sir. There you go. Okay. I always have to add back a functions.php file or if we're doing variations or whatever, add assets.js, add the variations, JavaScript file, and queue the sheet and everything, or the scripts and everything. So I was wondering if, as part of this project, we have themes that may be incorporate some functionality beyond just like a base 2023. Things that people would want to do, use it as like an educational tool as well. So if you want to add some block styles and add some block variations or whatever, those are demoed in some of these example themes, which give people a direct way to see how it's done. Kind of in a more formal way. Just a thought, because 2023 is great, but you always start adding things back to do some core functionality. Yeah. And I'd actually like to add to the educational aspect of that. When you build those things and the themes, like I would love to have you all talk to me and about getting stuff on the developer blog, just to share those experiences. That's kind of a side thing, but just putting it out there for everybody. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think that's something that we would have to discuss on a birth theme basis, I guess. I haven't said, but the repo is up now. I think the link is on the make blog post. I'll second share it later. Right now we have two themes, well, in different stages. One is just a design that they decided to donate for the host that we can build. The other is one of the variations that didn't get to 2023 that's going to be built into a standalone theme. The design that we have right now that we can build, it's a very, I don't know how I would describe it, but I think it's going to have features that are going to be hard to build without adding extras, maybe CSS, maybe I don't know about JavaScript, but I think it would be a good idea to use the repo or this initiative to try and push as much of the limits of Gutenberg to be able to do as much as we can, because if we start relying on CSS or adding assets or something like that, that's the easy way, that's of course totally valid, and it's also a good learning experience for people who want to learn how to do that, but I think we would be losing a little bit of the opportunity to try to put some of that into core. I don't think there's a real reason why we shouldn't add assets, if we really think we need to, that we want a theme that has this particular functionality that doesn't work in core, and we really want to have for this theme to have it, because it's very special, very specific to this theme, and I don't think we should say no to that, like we would on a maybe on a default theme, but trying to push as much into Gutenberg that whenever Gutenberg doesn't have the capabilities, I think it's a good exercise for us. Yeah, and I don't want to just, I mean if this isn't the place for that sort of thing, and that's perfectly fine. Could be, it's a discussion that we can have, yeah, yeah. That's also thank you for the link, it's in the chat. Yeah, I think this is a great opportunity to just explore, like any design itch that you want to scratch, or, you know, function, you know, just, and without having to necessarily build out a full theme, it's a great, you know, great way to explore concepts and, you know, offer them back to the WordPress community. All right, I think the greatest thing of this is that maybe someone has an idea but doesn't know how to build it, but someone else knows how to build things and doesn't doesn't do well with design, so that's like the magic of this, like you can get together and do something really nice. Yeah, I don't know, do we have anybody here that is primarily a designer, not much of a developer, like who writes code? I know most of the people here write code that I know, so I don't think so. Yeah, we would really love to bring in, like, yeah, people who are just designers, because, like, block themes, this, you know, you don't have to know all of the complex stuff of the past anymore. And I think, like, being able to onboard some of the, like, really creative people who didn't think they could build themes and to the WordPress projects would be, you know, it's a great way to do, all right, so we have both kinds, designers and developers, yeah. I think a lot of us are just master of all trades, or what is that, Jack of all trades, master of nine, maybe. Yeah. But yeah, I think it's interesting to, like, exploring, I've been diving into, like, the query of the block and, like, taking a look at different ways to leverage it, so, like, like, there's some, some explorations around, like, if you only had featured images to make, like, like an Instagram profile on your own website, like, something like that, like, using the query of the block, and all you do is add a featured image. Or what does it look like to have, like, a feed of thought instead of post, you know, like, how would that work a little differently? And why wouldn't that be, like, an out-of-the-box way to use WordPress? I think, like, trying to think of, like, the alternate ways that, that historically we've ended WordPress to maybe try to do, but in, like, a weird hacky way, but try to figure out how to do it with blocks, I think is very appealing and interesting to, to mean into. I really like that idea as well, just because I think, you know, when you're thinking about making a default theme, or even something like an in-between default theme, something that's like a default theme, you're really making one kind of theme, and it kind of dictates what kind of website you make, or at least people's creativity, I think, is kind of boxed in by the theme in a way. And I think that's part of the, the trouble with educating folks on these new themes is that it really can do a lot more than we previously had, but if we're just giving them another default theme or something like that, I think we're, we're kind of limiting the amount of experimentation we could be doing, and just that kind of developer relations, that kind of, you know, marketing of the, of the software. And these are, like, more unique use cases. I think we'll start to get into some unique spaces that, like, gets people's attention, gets them excited about making themes. It's, it's fun and exciting to us, but I think if you're a new person looking at the wall of stuff that you need to do to make a block theme, it's not really that exciting. So we have to like, we have to make this more exciting. And I think those kinds of unique use cases could help us get there. Yeah. I was just on Twitter yesterday, I think it was Twitter or somebody's blog was, somebody made the comment of, you know, what we don't need is a whole bunch of other big, like, utilitarian, Nick, what's that word you use, monolithic, like one theme that does all the things, right? Like, so I think the idea of niching down, because really, like what, and I ran into that problem with Frost is, like, I like the idea of like, niching and like, creating patterns that are specific to a use case. Now, obviously it's not a theme for everybody, but I think there's already enough of those already being in, in the directory or in the works. And so like, whether it's a yo with theme or a real estate theme where patterns are actually specifically built for that use case, and people can say, Oh, I can, or even like the full page patterns, right? Like the, you know, I can create like a calendar or scheduling page because, you know, I don't have to sift through 100 different patterns that don't make sense to me in the specific use case. So I'm a huge fan of that. And that's probably the angle I would take in this personally. Yeah, I was thinking when you were, when Rich was mentioning the query loop, I was thinking about themes that we built that were for podcasting or for video bloggers. Those are something that you can't really do with the query loop if you really want to showcase the media that's important, that's relevant for the website. So that's like, that kind of niche that doesn't get built that much because of podcasting website is very, very specific, something like that. That's would be really nice to explore. And the guardrails for this are just core, right? We just want to be using just core. We're guiding ourselves by the same guidelines that any blog theme that wants to be submitted to the repo, really. So the rest is up to discussion, really. So that includes Gutenberg then, obviously, because that's part of the repos install. I was just thinking like, WooCommerce support and the, you know, things that like, you know, once people get past the initial like, Oh, how do I do this kind of thing? Yeah, as long as the team doesn't break if Gutenberg or WooCommerce is not installed, we can support whatever plugins we want as in, you know, recommended, not required. Yeah. Yeah, if you want to build a site that's mainly a shop, that's for sure it can work as long as like Karin and said that when you deactivate WooCommerce it still works and doesn't break. I was looking at, I did see something like mentioned in our notes about potentially like design, working with Figma. With the original 2023 project that you could create a variation through Figma, right? I have no idea how to use that tool. By the way, I'm just confused. I just know what to read. Yeah, so I don't know, you know, I'm assuming we have several people who are like, who prefer to use that now. So like, having like some, like at least been a point of resources and stuff around that would be and anything we can do to like bridge the gap from people who just want to use Figma and create a theme and like kind of transport it over. That would be awesome to see to as, you know, at least at like a just simple level as provide some resources for people who want to do that. I keep coming back to the developer blog. Like I want somebody to write a post on how to do all this for us, you know, like some of you use these tools and how they work in your data, your day to day job. Well, I do think you provide like a real natural flow where you create a theme, it's in the community repo, you write an article on how you did it, you know, I think that's a really nice people can go down use it, you know, so that'd be a really quick thing. Yeah. Damon, your, what was the other thing about considerations around standardizing block patterns and these or I guess I, yeah, I was just thinking, I mean, I see the group net kind of staring towards niches, and I think that's awesome. And I think that will probably have some unique patterns associated with it. But I also think there could be potential for having like standardizing some some patterns that we might pull from like the pattern directory or something that we, I don't know, yeah, what that would look like. But I guess once we see a few a theme or two being developed, and if they're pulling in common patterns, then that might be something a larger project or a different spin off project, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. All right, I'm looking at a food truck, simple restaurant theme without a PDF menu, that would be a great, great thing. I actually have a food truck like literally right down the road from me. It's open three days a week. I'm like, I want y'all to have a, like I want to order online instead of like calling like I just want to click a button to get my burger. So, but it's a little old school. Yeah. But yeah, I would love to, like, so here's a WordPress theme and I just install it. Maybe you have some kind of integration. But yeah, great idea of a specific theme type. Yeah, we got to go ahead. There's also like more kind of unusual things we could think about, like how about a theme that was targeted at like presentation slides, like instead of using, you know, Google Docs and creating slides in that you could actually have a WordPress theme that was targeted for that. That would be an interesting theme to create with using a community theme because it gives it a sort of more, I don't mean authority, but you've got a bit more trust, don't you? If it's been created by people who are experts in WordPress, it gives it that kind of almost canonical feeling. Oh yeah. I would love to say that. I think that's a great idea. Are you volunteering to do this one? Write the JavaScript for the slides. I don't think we need to do any JavaScript with them. Sticky position. Sticky. Yeah, yeah, I think it's more prototyping that. It's really, really cool. So that's amazing. Yeah, we should try that. Oh yeah, that simplifies us for a slight actual just like theme developers, just a UCS or just a sixth position. Yeah, I'll have to get a link if we have one available for that, just to test it. But you should open an issue on the repo. So some designer can actually flesh out the looks of that. Maybe I'll just open appeal. Yeah. Yeah, I think we can, if you have ideas for anybody who's just like, oh, I got this neat idea for a theme, just create an issue. You don't necessarily have to build it all yourself. It's a collaborative process. Yeah. I think another thing to try, it's very difficult would be to not use Figma to start the design inspiration within the editor. It's going to be very difficult, but knowing what those difficulties are and recording them, you don't get an issue like these are the top 10 things that slowed me down, because we know it's slower than in Figma, but having a lot of feedback on what exactly needs to be improved will help that process because it should be as much as an exploration tool as a design tool. And at that point, I think it'll really increase adoption for designers. It also prevents you from designing things that are impossible to do in blocks without custom CSS. Yeah. But I'd like to identify those like guardrails that really shouldn't be there. Like what's impossible that should be possible. Right now it might just be way too difficult to do, unless you're one of us who've been doing it for years and we know exactly how to wrangle it. I think that that would be good to kind of take those binders off and look. Yeah. I will say the most common feedback I have is around navigation, building out anything beyond what you could do with the editor right now. Yeah. Which navigation has always been a problem in WordPress. It's not like the block editor introduced problem edit navigation. So yeah. There's probably hundreds of tickets, and they're probably already filed, most of them around navigation. Yeah. Mega menu thing. Damian added. Yeah. Just one thing that's an entire mega menu. Let's do it. Oh, there's one actually. Oh, you're searching for it. Then you get the name. You have the name. Go for it. All right. Let's see. So yeah, like officially at this point, we're just calling this a proposal. You know, there's not like some top down like we're definitely doing this. Like I may feel like we are. We have, we've had great feedback so far in the theme review meeting last week. So like I do want to like to come away with this meeting. So like, okay, we're going to do this. It's, you know, just a sort of not call it a proposal, but to call it a like actual, this is a project. I don't know. We don't have anybody who kind of disagrees with that. Right. So I think, you know, now it's just, it's going to be about like kind of, I'd like just getting started there. I think two projects started and those Maggie, you can correct me if I'm wrong. We're both based on style variations from the previous. No. Oh, they weren't. Okay. That's just, there's one that's a style variation that's going to be built on the child theme. And the other is just a design that we are this donated for it to be built. We gotta decide how we're going to build it. What's, what are we going to use as a base? And if it's a theme that we should build as a child theme of 2023 or was a standalone theme, I guess that's up to discussion really. I asked her if she could give us a design. So we had something to start with and it wasn't just an open empty repo. So there's already, she's open in case someone wants to start discussing, start working. So there's something to start with because I didn't want to contribute any once time because this is of course something that we all do for free, basically. So yeah. I think someone had a question. Yeah, I was just, I guess, I might be jumping ahead, but I just straight go into process. But and I'm curious, like, so the community themes repo, are we thinking there's going to be individual themes in there? Are we going to spin off the ideas? We're going to have a folder for each theme and that's how automatic works when they're developing themes. So there's a script that we can reuse that they have for pushing to repo once every theme has been accepted in the directory. So we need to update just with a script, we could just push directly stuff like that and automate everything. So yeah, the idea is that all the themes are going to be in the same repo. Okay, perfect. Yeah, I'm not usually a fan of doing that, but I think it would work in this situation. Yeah, have everything in one place. Yeah, skip the head past the GitHub processes. What are your thoughts about providing examples on the hybrid teams? What do you call them hybrid or universal? Very interesting. I've been trying to avoid them, but people are asking about them more and more. I guess it all depends on the needs of the person who's building the theme, right? Why are you deciding to build a hybrid team instead of a block team? Usually there's some kind of constraint that's coming from that. So we don't really have those. So if we think it's a good experiment to work on for learning reasons, then I guess we can decide to go ahead. But without any real constraints, I don't see the benefit to building a hybrid team. But that's me personally. I want to be clear that this is something that I've started. I got the ball rolling, but I'm not making the decisions here. I just had the ideas and this is something that we all discussed together. Sorry, Caroline, you go ahead. No, I was going to read Mike's comment about agencies are building a lot of hybrid teams and not able to go for block teams yet. Yeah, I could see potential as a learning resource. I just immediately popped into my mind a transition theme, right? That's what I'm thinking as well. Hybrid and functionalities kind of pulled away to show people how you're basically transitioning them to block themes. Rich does have a good question that we're looking to make an examples resource or themes to push to the repo. And I lean towards the latter. I think an example of a repo is a whole separate thing. And I think what this project should be is primarily geared toward putting quality block themes into the theme directory. But that doesn't mean it can't serve these things can't serve as good examples of how to build. I do worry about maybe going into hybrid themes or I'm not even entirely sure what a universal theme is. I haven't had a great definition on that. But at least this is my opinion, I'm saying we, but my opinion is I think I would want this to be strictly block themes like push the block editors as far as we can. Maybe the theme experiments repo is a better place for those kind of things. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that, Maggie. I kind of look at these as like what is the ideal WordPress experience. And that should be what we kind of aim for with each of these that we publish. That's how you would learn WordPress if you're starting with the site editor for the first time with one of these block themes. What would that look like? And start from that point I think. I agree that block themes, I mean 100% block themes is the future. But it's not what I'm being asked when people email me or tweet me or yeah. It's not what I'm primarily being asked about. It's not what people like questions about. It's more about the transition. Yeah, yeah. There is also the opportunity though to change that narrative in by example isn't there that if we start providing lots of examples of hybrid themes then that is going to increase people's sort of thinking oh this is the way to do it. Whereas if we just we put that question to one side and we just say no look these are great examples of block themes. Look what you can do with block themes. There's the whole world of possibility out there because at the moment there's really in terms of default themes there's really only two. So if we can show how many great things you can do with block themes maybe that also will start to reduce those questions because people will say oh I don't need to worry about transition. I can just live straight into this thing. It's ready. Yeah I worry about if we if we're present or that username puts out a hybrid theme it's like we officially recommend it. Exactly. We should make it easier. Yeah. Yeah it's um yeah I agree that's also difficult. Yeah I think there's uh there I do love the idea of like the hybrid themes now that we have like template parts you know in the classic with the classic templates because I think that's the transition we needed like three years ago or two years ago or whatever it was. And yeah because that's how you like handle the navigation you just have a or you know you you do your custom navigation and everything else is a template part you know or block template part. There might be room for exploration there. If there's like I think it's going to come down to the need of the theme itself anyway. I don't know like if there's just something that's not possible with the block editor then we it should be like it's well first of all we need like you know to file tickets upstream making sure like folks like Rich are aware and he can build out that stuff maybe for us or whoever else here is you know really working on like core stuff. But yeah I could see us doing like maybe there's a some PHP in these themes too. But yeah I'm trying to catch up with the chat too and talking so I might start rambling. Yeah so we have yeah we took like another 20 minutes or so so we we're still on good on time. I just had another thought on the hybrid thing. I do agree I think this should be focused on non-block themes. But I do think it is and maybe this because I've been just talking to agencies a lot over the past six months. I think it is important to just always keep in mind especially if the initiative of this thing is to increase adoption and to get folks building these kinds of themes. Like we're in a one world one reality of block themes and it seems like everyone else I'm talking to is in a whole different reality about block themes. And maybe it's because they haven't experimented yet they're not quite there and they'll get there. But I think even if we do make this about block themes we have to keep an empathy for those folks who whether they can they're just not interested yet or they literally can't because they have so many client projects that are wired up one way that they can't just jump into a block world and then train and their clients and their dev team that's always a big thing as the financial hurdle. And so I think whatever we do just keeping in mind that this is going to be a transition for a lot of folks and so anything we can do along the way to help with that maybe it's educational materials outside of it maybe it's you know some other kind of hybrid examples I don't know I just think it's just important to keep in mind these two different worlds that are kind of coexisting right now and how big of a transition we're actually going through with the with the folks down on the ground. I personally think that there's a reason why classic themes aren't going away. There's a public for them and there's a use for them so I don't think everyone needs to go and build block themes for everything so it's fair that they don't need to make the change if they don't want to like it depends some people can do the transition some others maybe it's not for them it's going to be a waste of money and they're not going to get anything really worth it back so. Then what you're saying about having two sizes or miss with the education resources is key but also really what is missing is inspiration if you think about it because to the early day I'm going to sign a grammar but if you think about to the early days of theming one of the things that inspired with some of their like are and creative themes and we've had a bit of that but we haven't had enough of that right and having some of that and this is personal bias maybe but having some of that as part of this I think really could be important yes there's practicals and yes there's that and there's that agency but this is maybe an opportunity to do something that doesn't have to be a default thing default thing have to have to be everything right that there's a like anyone that's working on a default thing they are not where you are necessarily getting to flex your creative everything but this could be right that's kind of what excites me is a chance to just like experiment and brew and collaborate that's kind of why I turned up and a chance to kind of do I don't know some banana Kubrick I don't know I'm going to make some old things just some wacky stuff that inspires people I feel we need that in theming just as much as we need some education a moment otherwise theming is just bananas banana smoothie Kubrick block theme that's what we need yes but we need we need that as much as we need the education because otherwise people are just going to not think that there's any creativity anymore and they're going to go to other products for creativity and that's a shame so anyway I'll go back to my grandma working chair but that's kind of what I think you can get the education resources yes we need that but we also just need some beautiful things that inspire very much agreed and that's why I want Mike to specifically design one of our these themes as he and of course we have a great a lot of great designers here so I'm actually looking forward to like every one of you like doing something and hopefully you know this will be a great project because of that and yeah so I don't want us to be too caught up in the weeds of like you know are we like you know doing hybrid themes or you know like let's just like build stuff that's cool and like just show what WordPress can do and figure out what the bugs are figure out where like it really needs to improve like that way like you know for these people who perhaps can't you know move to block themes yet or maybe don't want to because if they feel it's too limiting maybe like we really want to you know try to sell them on the idea of block things and and that's I think really what this whole project should be about but build stuff that's cool I can get on board with that yeah thanks Damon has a good question is there is like channel this initiative should focus conversation around I think we talked about that during the theme meeting the other day I think core themes project is a good channel for this yeah and it's incredibly hard sometimes to get new channels for so but that would be perfect so um quick question when thinking about like what kind of stuff to to design and go after and build might be interesting if I don't know if we have this kind of data but to to kind of look back on some of the most popular themes of the past 10 years and look at what's interesting about them what was popular and then to do like a side by side and show like okay well this is the block version of that see how we can build this and in blocks the most you know your favorite kind of theme now it's fully editable live in the site editor I don't know if we have that maybe it would just be anecdotally thinking about what themes we use in the past but I think that could be an interesting way of taking some of the guesswork out not that I don't want to explore and do random new fun things but I'm also just thinking about kind of using what we have to some degree banana smoothie anyone who hasn't actually seen that theme this is the weirdest conversation we've seen it all right so uh yeah floor's still open um yeah I think the biggest takeaway we think we need to come away with is like yeah we're doing this today right everybody's agreed we're doing this like and I'm excited about uh participating in this I maybe I'll actually get a design done between everything else but if not I will be testing everybody's stuff and playing with it because I enjoy themes and if you want I'm also happy to collaborate with folks like if you just want to design something and say hey Justin build this in the block editor feel free to do that too one thing that might be a good idea is this progress is um staying what someone wants to do to partner with another person so um in the past one of the things has been like hey I've got an awesome design and then someone just wanders around with it and never gets it coded um so if someone just wants to code awesome designs awesome say it well if someone just wants to create awesome designs just say that and then kind of partnering and bedding it up that would be kind of awesome or if someone wants to do everything then awesome go and do everything but just kind of like um opportunities for collaboration might be a good way of doing it as well to help kind of unblock or saying like hey I would actually like to collaborate on something um and doing that uh yeah so mention in the comments are some of the most popular themes are like these big uh multipurpose you know uh themes uh that kind of do everything uh there's a few pointed out like astro cadence uh generate press uh uh but I think there's also like uh Anders uh is that Anders Noran is this like how do you pronounce his last name uh like he's done some things that are very like like uh specific to like you know a certain type of industry or or he's not there haven't been uh these universal type themes there so but the designs are great and I think you can kind of carve out like an area doing like yeah thanks for the link um you know there's a place where in the community where those themes can be popular um yeah they're universal writing uh he does he does some of his are more geared toward like the written word yeah so it'd be beautiful for blogging or just long form storytelling but um but he's also there's the uh like the uh profile page like a single page thing that was really neat I think in the last year um I knew I've experimented a little with that uh Brian I think uh if Brian's still here uh has two um so yeah I mean there I think if you look at maybe like the feedback he gets and what he's done there's room for you know following our specific model um or you know follow whatever you know path you want it doesn't have to and there's a wisdom and also looking at some of the uh really super popular themes too yeah I think um looking into numbers it's a bit tricky because this is again uh the long tail things you're gonna be the the the ones with the highest numbers like they're gonna are gonna be the ones that uh do most things that are like a Swiss army knife or things uh because they are gonna reach many different kinds of uh users but then do you have a long uh a very long tail of users that are gonna use those we call niche themes are we gonna if you want to call it something else uh because they they are more specific to what they need and there's maybe as many users uh using those but they're spread out through very different specific themes a specific theme just by definition it's gonna have a narrower uh user base that doesn't mean we don't need them and we have the the privilege of not needing to cater to to cater to a specific user base we just uh design or develop to our own win so we can decide if we want to go build this uh very useful very popular theme or something that is very um unique and that does nothing like it anywhere else but we think we can do both like it's fair that we explore both avenues yeah um so we have about five minutes left I want to make sure that everyone has uh you know the ability to ask any like final questions or bring up any other uh final topics so might also be interesting to do uh themes look at accessibility things as well so it might be interesting to look at kind of readability um and just kind of explore that on the front um like uh what could be kind of different things there from what could be like the the best readability um and different things in that and when I say suspicion I don't just mean for a particular type just really just strongly accessible as well um and different things like that um and really play with the fluidity so different things like that what's like the best reading that we could do where everything gets out of its way so that's kind of what I mean by just kind of experimenting as well it doesn't have to be like some wacky color combination with some wacky art stuff it's really experimenting with form and function yeah great uh uh just kind of go make sure we get the questions uh how do we assure that themes are updated that's a great question uh there from the chat that's another reason why having all the themes in the same group it's a good idea uh it keeps the conversation all in the same place I mean there's like a block update and all the themes updating on the markup we all we can do them in batches so they all get uh updated at the same time I guess that's uh there's no uh straightforward answer to that we can we should uh strive to keep the themes updated but as you know we have had the four teams except for one year since 2010 right and yeah the default teams do not get updated yeah we have bug reports for well basically all of them at least a couple per week there are three or four people triaging and doing pull requests for these themes it's not enough I do not want this to be prioritized over the current default teams at this point and I do not want this to be abandoned either because I feel like jave fun experimenting and but now my team is published I was going to be responsible in six months when there's a core update and yeah the block might not work anymore this is incorrect and so on yeah I uh I don't think we have that figured out yeah and I think it that's uh not just specific to updating themes there's like that some administrative tasks there that we need to figure out um because that's that's just part of the administrative stuff um I don't have any answers for that yet um yeah but I feel like the more people we have involved these years is to kind of kind of do that um but once you get to like 10 15 themes or something and then a four press makes a major change to like a block that's using every one of them then you need to update everything so um so how much I think is a question of how much updates are we talking and that might be like the walls and also if someone feels ownership of something then they will be more of a life gets in the way so we also have to respect that people's lives change and situations change people are helpful to hide my full time job isn't this anymore so everyone has different jobs that do different things right like have hobbies and do different things um but I think rich just added a little comment which I had to agree with uh one of the things is like if you remember old things yeah the maintenance burden was a nightmare that was one of the whole reasons for the whole new idea of themes right so uh we shouldn't be having huge maintenance burdens otherwise we should all go back to poor and be fixing things so that we don't have a huge maintenance burden so part of that is this right so we will do some way we shouldn't write css for these themes so we don't have to maintain it yes okay but that also blocks us from having some fun and we will get there but we can have fun and I lost my hand um so one of the problems with 2022 and 2023 right is that they are required to be backwards compatible but with these themes I hope we know a little bit more freedom so that we can actually have a minimum required workers version no yeah no no backwards compatibility I'm thinking about for example 2022 still yeah I remember the old commerce form block I remember we can't remove it we're going to be stuck for that I remember yeah not the case yeah okay good that's going to block us for those themes yeah yeah I would agree wholeheartedly that we do not need to be backwards compatible with this project all right so yeah uh I think uh when I we published the uh show notes we will probably need to bring up a question just an open question about a little bit around administrating updating and uh and so on that that needs to be a discussion that happens um because yeah we all want to do it but who wants to like you know do all the boring you know parts you know or you know the less the less exciting stuff um all right uh we are out of time so I just want to say I appreciate everyone who came today and joined uh great feedback from everybody a great discussion and I look forward to you know many more to come uh Maggie do you want to share any final thoughts uh thank you so much for being here it means a lot that you're all excited about this idea um hopefully see you soon in the repo all right bye bye