 Good morning and greetings from Stanford in California. My name is Will Chu. I'm the co-director of StorageX Initiative along with Itui. We are delighted to welcome you to our special symposium today. Over the past three months, we have convened an international panel of speakers and viewers, such as yourself. Thank you so much for contributing to this event. Today is no exception. I'm delighted to introduce two outstanding energy storage scientists and leaders from Europe. Today, we'll first hear from Professor Christina Jettström. She's a professor from Uppsala University in Sweden, and she's very well known for her work on understanding interfaces in lithium-ion battery cathodes. In addition to her scientific accomplishments, she has also a number of leadership roles in Europe. She leads the Anström Advanced Battery Center, which is the largest of its kind in the Nordic countries. And more recently, she's also the spokesperson for the European Union project, Battery 2030 Plus, working on sustainable battery technology development. Christina will talk about both aspect, the science, and also the research infrastructure needed. So we're very much delighted to hear from Christina. The second speaker is going to be Professor Seifel Eslem from the University of Bath, also from the Department of Chemistry. Seifel is a pioneer in using computational methods to understand ionic transport and redox phenomena. He is very well known for his work in several elements, hydrogen, lithium, oxygen, and iodine. And I just realized it actually spells helo, which makes me think of Hawaii for some reason at the moment. Maybe that's a good way to describe how I'm feeling, maybe some of you feel that way as well. And like Christina, he also serves a number of leadership positions among them. He is the head of the cathode theme in the UK's Faraday Institution and also UK's flagship program on Battery R&D. So today, I'm delighted to hear from both Christina and Seifel and hope to have a spirited discussion with you, the audience, and also with them at the end of the seminar. So with that, let me ask Christina to come to the screen and tell us more about her activities and Battery 2030+. Christina, please go ahead. Thank you so very much for this very kind introduction to me. And I have nothing more to add more than that. I'm also actually a trustee of the Faraday, so I can give you a very broad picture of what battery research is in Europe. And my talk will be a lot centered on what's going on in Europe at the moment, but also, of course, how my own research is linked into that. And Battery 2030+. is a large-scale long-term European research initiative. And that explains my title, Long-term Visions and Research Needs for Studying the Batteries of the Future, because that is really what we have been asked to do for the European Commission to make a roadmap which actually has a vision longer than 10 years to actually be able to put sort of different schemes and research projects on the agenda. And you can say that battery research has been of interest in US for a long time in Asia and Japan and Korea, China, also for a long time. And why is Europe awakening up now, quite late in this when most of the production is done in Asia? Well, it is the expected large growth, because we have emissions in Europe, stated by the European Commission, that we should be the sort of first climate neutral continent in the world. And if you have this kind of vision and mission, you have to put actions in order. And batteries is one out of several, but key technologies to enabling this. And of course, this picture comes from European Commission. It is the electromobility, the transport sector, which is important. And then we can see a growing sector for energy storage, large-scale storage, to actually enable more of renewable electricity production into the grid. And if you look at the right hand side, you can see what do we expect, what kind of global battery demand do we expect per region? And I can see that China in itself is a very good example of a continental driving climate change technology. And they will have a lot of needs for their own market. You can see that Europe has also a growing expectations of more electric vehicles, etc. And actually expect more than US. And I think that is because it's a clearer vision in Europe, what we want to achieve when it comes to climate neutrality. In my own country, which is Sweden, we even say that we should be the first fossil free country in the world. We see if we manage with that, we're only 10 million people. We are not a very large country. And the European market, European Commission is putting up a lot of regulation and to support this transition. And one example, which is affecting also US and other countries outside Europe, is that we have put restriction on how much carbon dioxide emissions a personal car can emit. And very late just half a year ago, right before the COVID crisis, we also had regulation for heavy duty vehicles, how much carbon dioxide they are allowed to emit. And this means that if US companies want to sell cars in Europe, they have to obey to these legislations. And there's even a new battery directive coming up soon, which also will be a lot pushing this. But if you look at this, especially here, that Europe is still a quite small part of the whole world and the expectations for the whole world, that became and worry a few years ago, that the number of batteries, battery cells available for European companies, especially the automotive companies, that's a strong industry in Europe, that they were not strong enough on this market to really safeguard enough of battery cells to really make this transition. So there is now a strong, strong commitment in Europe to try to increase the number of battery cell producers. And that is a quite new thing. And of course, it has the effect that you have Asian companies coming into Europe. Elgi, the Korean company, they have now one of the largest factories is actually in Poland. In my country, we have a new company called Norfolk, who is building on Swedish green sustainable electricity. And on the a lot of mining opportunities, we have the Scandinavian countries where we have graphite, we have cobalt, we have nickel, et cetera. And we are finding more and more of that now looking for it in the Finland, Sweden, Norway. So here also in Norway, there is now an idea of open a giga factory to make battery cells. There is one coming up in the UK called British Vault. So there are lots of activities. There is one coming up also in France and Germany is very strong in this. And this is sort of the report from European Commission in April 2019, where they see that the number of electric vehicles on the road from 2018 would increase dramatically to 2040. And you know, we have one billion cars, passenger cars on this globe. So it's a lot. It's actually a lot of new questions come that comes up with this. Can we make another battery sustainable enough? Will we have enough raw materials? What does it mean to produce a battery? Will it cost more energy than you actually gain and so on? But still, even if we don't have the full market of all cars on batteries, it will be a massive growth. And so far, we can say that the growth in Europe is considerable. If you look at the number of new cars sales, and this means that also the sales of primary lithium ion batteries, if you look at the nearest 10, 15 years, that will also grow. And then the hope then for the European Commission is that we also with this new lot of new money put into battery factories in Europe would actually increase the number of jobs. And for 2028, I hope for a share of seven to 25% see if we managed to do that in Europe or not. And therefore, I'll put up a very big sort of program going from research, where you have the battery 2030 plus long-term research, going to more short-term and medium-term research and applied research with a network called Batteries Europe in Europe, where you have all the sectors represented. You have the long-term research, you have the advanced material group, you have a recycling group, you have a sustainability group, you have a digitalization group, you have also a group for transport applications, another one for large-scale applications, working together to put up the frameworks for different funding schemes for Europe. And since I am then the director of the long-term research for battery 2030 plus in Batteries Europe, I also try to push that we need to have long-term research at the same time as we have more of the industry related issues. In 2017, there was something called European Battery Alliance, EBA, launched and this EBA is actually collecting all the companies in Europe that have interest in batteries. There you find the mining companies, the materials companies, the automotive companies, etc. And they are also putting up schemes now to try to work together cross-sectorial to work. And one outcome to that is that there are industrialization programs and regional programs, innovation funds put into this. So a lot of investment money going into this. And now we have the coverage and what that means for the funding of these schemes is still a little bit unclear, but you can see at least that the thinking is that we should cover the whole value chain for batteries, but also the whole value chain you can say from research up to industrialization and have that in parallel. And so it's an interesting development. And of course we missed that UK decided to go for a Brexit, but with battery 2030 plans, we do have British scientists also involved some of our projects, which we think is very important that Faraday is one of our supporting organizations here. So we try to have a friendly kind of relationship, the best of the citizens in this region. So it's a lot of political things, but the politics have got the industry with them. And I'm very happy to see that we now are trying to launch a partnership in Europe where the commission actually decides on a pot of money to support this area for at least seven years. So you don't have to have these fragmented scattered things, but really put it together. And this has worked out now it's not finalized. I hope the decisions will come now in September. And we don't know how much money it is, but at least this is the work we're doing. Europe has worked on a strategic energy technology plan with a special action for batteries. And I think this is sort of the European vision now that we should work for different generations of lithium ion batteries. I'm sorry that this picture is a little bit blurry, but it was not better from the source I got it. So at least I can tell you that in the nearest time we expect new generations what's called 3B and 3A, 3B, etc. And that is based on different cathode materials. And it's not secret that Norfolk in Sweden will go for NMC 811. And of course it's graphized silicon anodes. And then it's a question if we can increase the nickel content even further and also increase the silicon content even further in carbon. And generation four is expected to be all solid state batteries with lithium as I know. And but also conversion materials like and then it's lithium sulfur and that the lithium oxygen batteries comes at generation five and I think there is no really any idea when it would come. So but in this sort of European roadmap from what what chemistries are coming when we do miss out on the sodium ion, the redox flow, multivalent, etc, etc. And you can fill that list with more chemistries if you wish. And that is a little bit of a problem of course because this roadmap is made for transportation sector. But I can tell you that in battery 2030 plus, which is this large scale initiative, we want to invent the batteries of the future. And that means that we cannot include all these battery systems. And of course the idea is to provide industry with breakthrough technologies but also to have long term European leadership in markets and in applications and in research. And to do this, we said we have a chemistry neutral approach. We don't tell that we are specifically working on redox flow or sodium or whatever. Instead, we are trying to put up schemes that can enable these different chemistries. So we are establishing a battery interface, you know, because we do think that interfaces is not because only because of me that I worked on interface for a long time, but it's actually because it is sort of a holy grail still to understand that. And then really to accelerate the materials discovery process. So we try to take a holistic view with modeling tools and high throughput experimental tools. We are very happy to see that Europe is putting money into high performance computing in Euro HPC. We have excellent synchrotrons and neutron facilities in Europe. We see that the joint organizations are supporting the battery research because a lot of our research all over the world use these techniques and a multitude of these techniques. And we think that the smart batteries or I don't know if a person is smart, I don't know if a battery can be smart, but at least smart functionalities in a battery like self-feeling and sensors at a much more detailed way, something we also work on. And of course, when you do these things, you have always to think about safety, regulatory issues, cost-effectiveness, assembly, etc. So you can say that the commission said they want us to be in this segment materials, new materials and concept, low energy cell production, manufacturability, recyclability. And the reason for this is that one wants to promote production, production of batteries. There is where you find battery 23 plus. And just to say something very quickly on our biggest project, we have now a project portfolio. People have put together consortia and applied and it has been an open transparent process. And we will start with our projects first of September. And our biggest is an autonomous platform for accelerated discovery of future batteries. Of course, the Mattias genome in US that was started many years ago, been instrumental for this, but trying to get it further and to make it more holistic was involving really the high-profile experiments hand-to-hand. And it ties very indeed to in Denmark who is the leading this and we have industry involved. And that is something really interesting, because if you want to do work on artificial intelligence, instrument, etc. You need a lot of data. And we have industries that can provide a lot of test data and so on. And of course, we have to do that in a very restricted, safe way. So we don't just sort of put the companies in any risk, but they find this interesting to do this artificial intelligence orchestrated discovery. And it's called Big Map, how this little logo. And then we have projects, free projects on smart sensors to really go into acting sensing in the cell at the very detail level. And we have also something to play with new chemistry to see if we can add some cell feeling capabilities that the sensors can sort of tick in and make work inspired by drug delivery systems in medicine and etc. And we have two projects starting in the self-sealing and then trying to build in this. And this has, of course, a lot to do also with the Big Map project. So we have trying to find a portfolio where the different parts can make a flagship for Europe in this battery 2030 plus. So we have a roadmap where you can read about our short-term, medium-term and long-term goals. And you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn and see a little bit more about our launch, our event the 1st of September. So far we have done the preparatory work to make this roadmap. And since I then, why am I the leader of this? Yeah, I have some leadership experience from other big projects, but I also lead this Jonsson Advanced Battery Center in Sweden. And we do some research, of course, is relevant to the program we have. And if you look at the batteries, they do a degrade. And how fast they degrade depends on how much they are used and how much they are used rather than how much they are used. And if you look at the battery, I got this picture from Tramari Teleskon. You have many interfaces that you can define in a battery. So if you really want to pinpoint the details in this, you have to use a number of techniques. It's not so simple that you can use just one technique. And many of the reactions are so subtle that the techniques we have, have their limitations. And if you want to push some techniques, you have to work together in larger consortia to do this. And of course, there's a whole list of reasons for degradation in batteries. And if you make it very short, you have loss of, if you're inventory, you're kind of dragging out of the electrolyte, you have salt from that precipitates in the different pores. And if you get lower lifetime, you get, of course, lower capacity. And it has to do with the bulk structure, the interface structure to the different components, what operational window you have in purities, et cetera, et cetera. And we started early. And I think sometimes you can actually go back. It's so much published in this area. So if you go back a little bit in literature, you might find that we were not, we did things before. This is an example of a model system where you compare just the salt LiPyPF6 in the same kind of solvent as LiBF4 at room temperature. And the LiPyF6, you get a really nice, smooth layer of very small crystalline lithium fluoride. I get a bit of larger, chunky ones for LiBF4. They can both cycle well at this temperature. No problem. If you increase the temperature, you get larger, chunkier crystals of lithium fluoride growing in the polymeric, mushy, organic compound. But still, it's fine to cycle LiPyPF6 electrodes without any problem. But for LiBF4, you get even chunkier ones. It looks like you really break apart this organic covering mushy layer. And it phase to cycle at 60 degrees. If you have a fully lithiated graphite, it will just, lithium will go out. You can see that this was made 2001. So we can also see from the studies we did then. It was very much based on microscopy and XPS studies that this lithium fluoride layer was sort of small crystal. It's all through these organic layers. It was not just a layer close to the surface. So it was sort of spread out. And that was lost with the other funnel. And if you think, what is the difference between this sort? Well, this gives the Lewis acid BF3, which is much more reactive than the Lewis acid BF5. So that's one explanation. It was a pity because LiBF4 is more stable in a bottle in the lab than a LiBF6. That degrades and easier to get yellow and absorb. It's much more hygroscopic. But so this was interesting. And then 12 years later, we used new methods. So you can really use what's called Huxpass. It's a hard X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy. It's a kind of XPS technique where you can tune your photon energy so you can go deeper and deeper in. And there we could sort of more or less confirm that the lithium fluoride crystals, you could see them all through this mushy layer of organics. Though you had more of salt reduction products close to the surface and the more of the mushy organic on top of the SCI. And if you look at this case, it was graphite. And this was a lithium-ion phosphate. The cathode electrolyte interface is much thinner and it's more of this mushy type of organics that you have on the top here than it is for the graphite. So this inspired us to look at many different systems. And this is a typical quite new study we've done with silicon graphite electrode versus LENMC, one-third and third and third. And you're looking at different salts here and different additives to the salts. We could see that if you really go towards a more organic rich compound, you actually got better cycling. And this is a typical study. You can read many of them in literature, different additives, different ways of combining the additives, et cetera, et cetera. And this is a typical example where I would say that we need to accelerate our understanding. We need to much more having maybe like they have at the University of Minster, Martin Mintersgruppe that he spoke here a few weeks ago where you have a system where you can screen additives and electrolytes to come further quicker in this because it means a lot for the performance. And that's why I think what we hope that we will do in the battery 2030 plus will be important. So many of the chemists used today in electric vehicles in the batteries are quite good. They can even promise eight years and even longer if you look at the results. But what happens if you go to new chemistries? Then we have again to look at that specific chemistry, what's going on and and try to see if can generalize some findings or not. And I just got so tempted by sitting here together with Seifel to say a little bit of one of the oxyfluorides, the lithium anadium oxide fluoride. And these results are from an ER project or Li-rich FCC led by Maximilian Fischner from KIT and Helmholtz Center Ulm in Germany. And this is a lithium-rich disordered oxide salt oxyfluoride material. Here you have oxygen and fluorine in different proportions and you have also lithium anadium in this structure. And you have a lot of surface degradation and a lot of capacity fading. It has a high theoretical capacity because it can have two electron turns for reaction. I think the first material was suggested by Gerhard Seider 2014, but it was Maximilian Fischner with synthesizers first 2015. And about two thirds of this capacity is the practical capacity. And here you can see how it really degrades. This is only 50 cycles. And again using this hackspace and being able to go through the interface through the outer surface into the near surface into the bark. What can we say about these structures and can we say something about the degradation? And here are some graphs and if you go here up here you can see that from the left to the right you go from very close to the surface deeper and deeper into the material. And if you go down here you have first the pristine, you have the one cycle, the charge charge, you have the five cycles, the charge charge and you have 50 cycles. And the short story of this is that at the outer surface the vanadium very quickly becomes vanadium redox inactive. So you get vanadium five plots and you can't do so much. But going in it takes much longer. In the bark it takes about 50 cycles to really reach this inactive situation. And if you look at the carbon spectrum what kind of cathode electrolyte interface? Because this is a cathode and we are used to have rather thin cathodes interfaces like I showed for the lithium-ion phosphate case. And here after five cycles and 50 cycles we can see there's a lot of organic reactions on the surface and it's actually growing thicker and thicker. And it seems like instead of having more of a cathode electrolyte interface we have more of a a SEI actually like an anode. So just by having these kind of reactions going on the material we can induce extra reactions in the electrolyte which leads to these thicknesses. So this is just the schematics what we think is happening during this and you can see that it's also quite dynamic. We do from discharge to charge, from discharge to charge you actually grow this layer thicker and thicker. But it thins out also. So we also can see that okay we have some redox activity but it's probably anionic redox activity. And I have also other spectroscopic data as evidence for that but that you can read in the paper. So if the degradation starts at the surface what can we do? Can our additives in electrolyte? We can have surfing coating you know and we can substitute vanadium part of it with some other metal. And of course all these things we are testing all the time. And also can we systemize this to a more screening situation like in battery 2030 plus if we can move faster with this kind of material or discard them. But if you really want to know what's going on in the interface you have to develop new methods. And this is a very quick example of that you can do ambient pressure, photoelectron spectroscopy and then see what's going on in the surface. You can cycle the surface. And I was going to end my presentation now. I know I have very little time left by showing though some of you from industry but this is just not esoteric research as such. It's actually used to understand commercial systems and we do work in Sweden something called the Swedish Electromobility Center where we have two companies having products in the same segment. They are both selling buses and heavy duty that's Ghana and Volvo Group. And working together to try to understand what's going on in different patches. And this was just the first charging station study with a big prismatic cell of the NMC versus graphite commercially made, cycled by the industry in a controlled way where we had actually post-mortem studies and looked at and made different kinds of analytical used in different characterization methods to really look at the different parts of the electrode. And you can see that it's actually the gellerals that you roll out from this prismatic cell that you have almost like mechanical differences and different colors in these materials. And if you look at these cells they failed already between 2C and 3C in how they could handle part cycling and the internal resistance grow dramatically to 2C and 3C even worse for 4C. And the question is of course what is the problem and the problem is a lot what's going on at the different parts that you have some inhomogeneities that you can show with these kind of surface techniques. When it comes to the amount of flooring you find for the different cases and also if it's at the edge or the center or center middle halfway into the electrode etc. And this can give you some kind of information and if you relate that also to the mass changes you can see with C-rate the mass changes actually drops for the negative electrode while they are rather constant for the positive. You can see that the thickness of the surface layers grow up to 3C and they drop and you can see that porosity also changes and then drops at 4C. And if you put all this data together to some kind of conclusion you can see there's a cycle life drops dramatically between 2C and 3C-4C. You can see the graphite impedance increases and it drops to 4C. You can see C-cell swelling being rather constant and then to 4C. So we have actually different mechanisms dominating at different charging rates. So you have an accelerated plating at 3C. Not a surprise everyone knows that with high speed cycling you get little plating. But at 4C you don't have only the plating you have actually extensive gas evolution also. So that contributes to the large cell impedance. And then you get exfoliation and an accelerated lithium inventory loss point to the graphite electrode. And of course going back to the battery 20-30 plus ideas this kind of knowledge we also need to accelerate. So just by summarizing this that now 1st of September the battery 20-30 plus starts and we have more than 100 partners and it will be an interesting experience for Europe. Is this the largest program in Europe? I would say at the European level it's one of the largest. If you look at some of the countries like Germany they have national programs that are even larger than this. But this to be an European effort this is not. So thank you so much for listening to me and I hope you have many questions and I can so many names and funding agencies that I need to thank. But I would particularly like to thank the people at KTH and the automotive companies in Sweden and Germany and my colleague in the interface group and at KIT for this materials you have seen in this presentation. So thank you. Christina thank you very much for the wonderful talk and also for your leadership and service to the battery community. I know this is a huge amount of work. So we have many questions covering different aspects of the talk so maybe I will start with the scientific ones. So these are questions that our viewers have sent to us. So the first question is on CEI versus SEI on cathode versus anode. It's being shown that the SEI on the anode can be very heterogeneous. It could be very compact in some places and very extended in others. It's the same true for cathodes I think you were hinting at that. Could you discuss briefly the heterogeneity maybe in the thickness in the morphology of SEI on the cathodes? I think that's a very good question because if you keep to a voltage range which is sort of okay for long-term cycling of the material you see very thin layers on the cathode. But as soon as you want to change something and you change your potential window or you go to a higher speeds when cycling you start to form in heterogeneous reactions. And it seems in some cases that you even might have some crosstalk of components between the different electrodes. It is a very, very tough chemistry. You are very reductive on one side and very oxidative at the other side. So I think my example of it is vanadium fluoride oxyfloride compound shows that it's not so simple as you are saying oh we have a thick one on the anode and the thin one on the cathode. It's very much dependent on how stable also the bulk structure is and the surface structure of the compound. And you know I didn't say that but vanadium can of course also corrode and actually react and be transported from the electrolyte onto the graph at the side. Side if you don't have proper interfaces or coatings and so on. It's a big matrix of things and that's I guess why we work in this area. It is complex and that's why it's fun. Indeed the next question is maybe even a harder question. So is it possible and what is the state of the art knowledge on the ionic conductivity and also the electronic conductivity of CEIs and SEIs and treating them as mixed conductors rather than as ideal solid electrolytes? It's also that's a tough one. It's a question if the one on the cathode is so thin that you can almost have like electron tunneling through it. It doesn't look like that. It looks however like the SCI is more like a physical barrier where you really can have a transport. It's mainly ionic conductivity but I think this that really understand how you have the electron transfer reactions really point that at a dynamic level. That's something we suggest for the next phase of European funding actually because it is very intriguing and we might need laser methods really be able to pinpoint this in a good way. For the stable systems though I do think that we have more avionic than a little bit of electronic conductivity through these layers. Wonderful. Christina thank you. So related to characterizing SEIs and CEIs you showed a lot of results on post-mortem characterisation of interfaces. Could you discuss briefly the opportunities and perhaps roadmap for characterising SEI growth in situ dynamically so we can understand more about the underlying kinetic processes? Yes. If you want to understand the kinetic processes of course you have to do it in in operando mode and I think that we are trying to develop now in Europe and I think in US too and of course in Asia ambient pressure systems because many of the earlier studies the ones I've shown you are made with techniques with high vacuum techniques so you actually pump off some of the materials and it's always ex situ and it's always post-mortem you can say but we need to see it in live and of course with the imaging techniques that both the neutrons and X-rays are constantly becoming better and better. I hope that we can gain more results but I think we will continue to have to combine different techniques to be able to really say something about the kinetics of it. I mean our own studies I just blurred over it where we have looked at droplets of electrolyte on metal and see if we can cycle it and so on in the spectrometer at ambient pressure shows that it's I think confirms a lot that the SEI is a fiscal barrier but you can also see from different components when they actually reduce on the surface which is interesting. So I think we need to continue to work on these techniques and we are not there yet but we have a lot to do together to solve the characterization part for the next generation of studies. I couldn't agree more Christina and I'm glad that you're also now deciding you know where the money goes so this is very exciting to see some resources going to this. I my dream is always to be able to have the ultimate spatial resolution and time resolution that goes from you know seconds to years I know that's impossible probably but one can dream and I can watch this grow as the battery ages I don't know we'll see if that can happen. We have to have these dreams to push a little bit forward we have a saying in Sweden if you can't reach you have to aim for the stars so that you can reach the tree tops or the tops of the trees. Yes indeed very inspiring let me just ask one final question on the details and I'm going to zoom out a bit to some broader questions so there's a final question on the importance of foreignated chemistry for silicon so it's it's sort of generally understood that as an important aspect of forming a stable SCI for silicon you show some results that did not involve fluorinated chemistry for the additives the LIBOB and also VC so the question is if you can comment on why that works particularly well in that particular combination. Yes there were a lot of things I didn't tell you I think the how you make your electrode is very important and you have also a lot of carbon in this electrode of course that helps helps to sort of cover this SCI you can say also for the silicon you have also binders and that is a very big issue in my research group where my colleagues I have some young colleagues really being smart in thinking of new kinds of binders that can actually help silicon and try to to sort of yeah so it's all these things that helps also with the salts I think to build this kind of layers so it's a multi-complex problem again. Complexity seem to be the overwhelming theme here this is good for us scientists I think. So for the two final questions you talked about the oxyfluorites as a potential substitution chemistry for the cathodes can you talk a little bit about the scale-up challenges of producing oxyfluorites? I think maybe this oxyfluorite yes this vanadium one I'm not sure that it's more than a model system but I think there are other ones I hope that my colleagues I will talk about the manganese one where you can maybe see more of potential for that I think yeah we have learned a lot about this compound because it has the two electron transfer reaction but and this kind of model studies are very important if we want to find something that can be upscaled and commercialized and of course everything where you have fluorine chemistry is a bit tough when you're upscaling I would say it's also a sustainability question. Ryan this is a good segue to the final question in terms of cathode scaling up there's a lot of discussion on the carbon footprints and waste water in particular during the raw material extraction from the earth and also the processing. Has the consortium thought more about the total environmental impact of material processing and are there ideas on how to mitigate that? I would not say that that is in the scope of battery 2030 plus but it is in the scope of batteries Europe and it's very important for European companies and the reason why Norfolk is positioned its factory in the north of Sweden is both cheap green electricity from hydropower but also access to a lot of water of course which would mean that in their case the production will have a lower carbon dioxide footprint but I think this is extremely important in every aspect of this value chain or the value circular that I showed you that we have that perspective and that is the perspective we have to have also in battery 2030 plus we have to have a manufacturability aspect we have to say to ourselves this material I'm studying now is is it possible to really do make a good manufacturing of it this censoring concept I'm suggesting can we really upscale that in a fair way that makes it economically and sustainability useful or not and then we have to select from that perspective but I think that is a discussion we need to continue with I can see that some of the coming ideas for projects in Europe will be related to this absolutely well this is very exciting to hear funding on to it exactly thank you Christina and before we switch to Seifle here there was also a few requests from our colleagues in Europe they are wondering how they could get involved at both from industry and academia with your programs so I presume they can email you directly and and continue the discussion on how they could contribute Christina thank you so much for for your talk and now I would like to ask Seifle to come to the stage Seifle now the floor is yours okay well thank you Will and well I'll start off with thanks and then a confession the thanks are to you Will and Yee for the kind invitation to be part of this excellent series of international seminars it's a real privilege and honour and also thank the people behind the scenes at Stanford Tracy Turner and Justin Warren because they've been great at getting this set up the confession is that I'm a bit anxious about this talk I'm anxious because I'm not exactly sure who the audience is usually you can see them uh so I suspect there's undergrads out there PhD students postdocs industrialists and top professors so I wasn't sure about how to pitch it so I asked Will what shall I talk about and he said about 30 minutes so for the next 29 minutes I'll give you a flavour of some atomic scaling sites into solar electrolytes and lithium-rich cathodes so as it's a flavour let me start off with uh so the menu is really um I'm going to start off with a brief starter on battery research themes and then I'm going to move over to the main course which is to do with uh solid electrolytes particularly model system these anti-proskites and then I suppose for dessert is um a final topic on lithium-rich cathodes and Christina mentioned the lithium-vinadium oxy fluoride I'm going to focus on another disordered oxy fluoride the manganese um archetypal system and then lastly um a few concluding remarks maybe some general remarks about the work that we've done and the way forward so let me start off with battery research themes I don't have to remind everybody about the the makeup of a rechargeable lithium ion battery but in terms of research themes I think one of the most active areas is obviously to do with cathodes um trying to get um higher energy densities so this could be around nickel-rich nmc lithium-rich oxides and also uh polyanion systems which was um well has been a big area but perhaps um slightly less so at the moment on the anode side um replacing graphite with a bit of silicon with some silicon or with silicon completely and then the holy grail of lithium metal um people are moving away from the organic electrolyte maybe getting some more solid state batteries so we're looking at solid state systems the last thing I was going to say is that obviously beyond lithium ion there's sodium ion and magnesium and then beyond intercalation there's a lot of work on lithium sulfur and lithium air my two focuses on in this talk it's going to be around the cathode and the solid electrolyte work so um it's known that if we want to make major breakthroughs major advances we've got to think about new materials uh perhaps new concepts and a deeper fundamental understanding um I mean a way that as a materials chemist myself that describes my research philosophy and the way we try and um understand those materials is a synergy between modelling and experiment so uh largely modelling work at Bath linking up with experimental collaborators at Bath and elsewhere on synthesis to fraction letter chemistry spectroscopy microscopy whole range of different techniques that were discussed partly in the in Christina's talk um I I know it's old news but I really wanted to knowledge the Nobel Prize in this area and I said finally because it's long long long overdue um and um I know people have been lobbying for John Goodenough to get this prize for those not so sure um John Goodenough is the one on the left and uh the one on the right is a an actual president who believed in science and scientific evidence um the other um prize winners knowledge is Stan Whittingham a good friend and colleague and grave an excellent opening talk to this um international series a few months back and Akira Ishino from my co in Tokyo so I just want to acknowledge the Nobel Prize and congratulations to all three of them um let me move on to the main course on soletrolites uh the context first I think we know that soletrolites have the potential for greater stability safety um energy density if you combine it with lithium metal and uh lifetime I suppose as well but there are issues the issues to do with conductivity in the solid state transport mechanisms um interfaces not only within the electrolyte but with the electrodes and within the electrolyte it's grain boundaries which I'll touch on briefly there are a number of families of materials being looked at uh probably the most studied are have been the garnets um the LLZO um we've been looking at some anti-proskites lithium rich anti-proskites and the one with the highest lithium ion conductivity the one on the right developed by Kanu in Tokyo is the um the Lysicon the thiolysicons based on um LGPS lithium germanium phosphosulfide so that has the highest lithium ion conductivity to date um we've um together with uh colleagues at Amion uh Christian Mascallier our PhD student Theo and uh Piero at Bath and James at Bath uh now at Singapore and Newcastle respectively we managed to publish a review article uh end of last year and nature materials and we were fortunate enough to get um the cover image as well so if you're interested in a general review on the fundamentals of inorganic that's in that nature materials review so let me move on to these anti-proskites so they're interesting materials they were looked at by uh Jao and Damon a few years back they found high ion conductivity around 10 to the minus 3 centimeters Siemens per centimeter room temperature relatively low cost materials um John Goodenough has been looking at them and various others there have been some debates about the levels of conductivity and their migration barriers and some of the debate revolves around the possible grain boundary resistance but there's always as with a lot of grain boundary work limited atomistic understanding real quantitative understanding of grain boundary effects um the perovskite structure is I'm sure um is sure is well known to most of you if not all of you what I find fascinating about um this structure is the anti-proskite so here the um the center of the octahedra is occupied by oxygen the corners of that octahedron are now the lithium the cations and right at the center the acite is the large halide that the chloride ion so that's why it's an anti-proskite so in abx3 formula it's cl0 li3 so the starting point for uh work was to do with um modelling the um oh yeah first of all the grain boundary issue sorry so this is just a schematic of the electrode and some particles and a schematic of a grain boundary and as I said the atomistic structures for a lot of these new materials aren't well known um we thought we'd start off the perovskite because the perovskite oxide grain boundaries are better known there's some debate about the migration barriers um some of the calculated barriers in the past have been considerably lower than the experimental values so we wanted to understand that and there's been some work on the oxy bromide uh analog where they quote grain boundary contribution dominates the total impedance and this is from um ace impedance work but they weren't sure what the grain boundary structure was and this is work of lee and howard so our starting point and this is work of james dorsen and pierrick and epa when they were at bath um we can construct from simulation different grain boundary structures we can actually look at um what's called the coincidence site theory where we can look at different orientations so that's just showing uh on the left a schematic of how you might form a grain boundary structure the sigma three um is observed in perovskite oxides um um and particularly barium titanate and calcium titanate um so we model the crystal structure and we've reproduced the bulk crystal structure um as you'd expect from simulation work so the starting point is to look at different grain boundary um energies and grain boundary structures so on the left we've got a kind of a ball and stick model of sigma three and sigma five even if you don't know the notation and don't worry the sigma three is a bit more close packed at the grain boundary sigma five tends to be open or open with lower coordination at the grain boundary structure we can calculate um the grain boundary energies and i'm just summarizing them as just a simple plots we find that the sigma three have relatively low energies in fact that they're lower energies than the equivalent sigma three in barium titanate so again suggesting quite considerable population of um sigma three type grain boundaries the sigma five are much higher energy suggesting that they're less common or less concentrated within this anti perovskite so the general conclusion here is that the low energies compared to the oxides suggest a high concentration of grain boundaries within this um anti perovskite structure so the next question is how do they affect the conductivity so we perform very long time scale um potentials based milica dynamics from which we can derive um diffusion coefficients and then we can actually convert them to conductivities so let's look at the um arhenius plot so this is the arhenius plot the classic log sigma t against one over t um the pink line is the experimental data from howards group and the black line is our calculated bulk value which we've extrapolated down to lower temperatures and the dotted line are the sigma three um conductivities from the grain boundaries which we've extracted so a few things you can see straight away our calculated bulk does not accord terms of slope with experimental value that the migration barrier is about 0.6 0.3 ev from the bulk whereas it's 0.6 ev experimentally the second thing to note is that we're finding that the grain boundary conductivity is lower than the bulk again not again but showing that there's would expect significant grain boundary resistance so this is confirming that there would be some significant grain boundary resistance within these materials with a higher barrier and a lower conductivity so I think from our this is um some work that we published in jacks a couple of years ago we've shown for the first time in this anti-proskite some quantitative atomistic insights into the grain boundary resistance and the migration barriers and helps to explain why the calculated dft values were lower than experimental if you just consider the bulk migration without considering the grain boundary resistance as well so we've extended this work um I won't have time to talk about but we've extended this work to some sulfides as well where we find much much lower grain boundary resistance the sulfides tend to be quite different from the oxides in terms of grain boundaries so we extended this work on the anti-proskites to the hydrated form um the anti-proskites um there was debate to what that they took up water very readily um and this is work of hood and song and ushin published in jackson advanced energy materials essentially the OH groups are actually creating more lithium vacancies and can increase the lithium ion conductivity but the debate really was was there any proton transport and this stems from the fact that um for those who've worked on proton conducting profskites as I have there has been considerable work on proton conduction proton transport in profskites but do they occur in these anti-proskites so we combine ab initio md with nmr so this is some uh summary of some ab initio md work where we um looked at the mean square displacements as a function of time as expected there's no diffusion of oxygen or chloride interestingly there's limited mobility of the proton with significant um migration or diffusion of the lithium as you'd expect in fact we can derive a diffusion coefficient of 10 to the minus centimeter squared per second which nicely ties up with the pfg nmr the pulse feeding gradient nmr work which also derived a diffusion coefficient of the same order so why is there limited proton diffusion well if you look at the structure of this anti-proskite it's very different from a classical oxide proskite the o o separation is now 3.9 angstroms versus typically 2.9 angstroms in barium serate or barium zirconate and this was backed up by um nmr this was carried out by um caron johnson's group up at durham and she performed some really elegant um nmr work i'm just summarizing some of her work i'm not an expert on nmr so this is variable temperature magic angle spinning nmr from about 19 degrees celsius up to 106 degrees celsius and what we find that the single resonance confirms that the lithium and protons are in a single environment but also um some of the proton nmr suggest that there's no long range transport it's very much local diffusion or local mobility of the proton um from the proton nmr and this is confirmed from the ab initio md again so this is on the left the iron trajectories of lithium around the red oxygens i don't know if you can see but you can roughly see some octahedra around the oxygens of where the lithiums are largely um located in red or these red i've highlighted some lithium hops some lithium vacancies hops along the edge of the octahedra so there is lithium diffusion however on the proton side what you see and this is the proton in black you see just a rotational motion around the oxygen so there's no significant or no real hopping between the oxygen sites you can see it's very much localized around the oxygen so you're getting these OH um rotation and this was published in energy environmental science uh in 2018 we then looked at um what would we do if we changed the proton concentration and we find that if we increase the proton concentration by increasing the lithium vacancy um you can see that the conductivity goes up the actual displacements go up so we are finding a higher lithium diffusion with increasing proton concentration which is quite nice because it's a another sort of um design tuning or tuning mechanism to increase the lithium conductivity so the take home message here is that this is seen as a potential electrolyte material there are um some challenges obviously um but what's interesting is that the proton incorporation tunes the lithium ion conductivity uh because of time i'll quickly move on to a quicker side so this is a very quick break before i move on to dessert uh i was very privileged and honored to be invited to give the award institution christmas lectures for bbc um they're very much a bbc christmas institution um for those who don't know many of you probably don't know about them they were founded by the great michael fraude back in 1825 he wanted to promote science to the general public and to school children it was then televised by the bbc in 1936 and i gave some lectures in 2016 on bbc on the theme of energy and i showed how a battery works by uh by the lemon i'm sure some of you've done this as a school demo you can use a copper nail and a magnesium strip but i wanted to go large i wanted to go very large so i produced uh or the group produced a lemon battery with the highest voltage ever we used 1008 lemons we cut them in half to produce 2016 lemon slices and so this is true cutting-edge technology sorry about that um and actually the most difficult part was putting those ikea shelves together so there's a bit of a swedish connection there and we generated um we generated 1275 volts and that is a guiness world record so if you have the guiness manual or look on the website there's a guiness world record next to my name and the royal institution so i'm very proud of that so let me move on to dessert uh because time is running short and this relates to the flagship um institution the fraude institution this is the uk flagship um i suppose research program on battery materials for electric vehicles um i lead one project called new next generation lithium ion cathode materials uh called cat mats um there is a sister one called future cat led by serena core at sheffield um i lead this with uh ben morgan at bath and our partners are oxford cambridge birmingham liverpool and ucl and i'm sure most of those names are familiar to you so the background is obviously to try and generate high-enegid st cathode materials um as you know the the prototype materials living called loxide then we went to nmc um i suppose 622 is about 180 million ampere hours per gram nmc 811 about 200 and i think in the near term these will probably dominate the nmc the nickel rich nmcs but there's a lot of research looking at lithium rich nmc and lithium rich layered oxides so lithium rich here means that the lithium the transition metal ratio is greater than one you increase the capacity by now enabling oxygen redox into the system but there are significant challenges around voltage fade and surface oxygen loss but the energy densities are higher greater than 250 million ampere hours per gram um some of the key players in this field i suppose some of the pioneers were mike thackeray uh and jeff dan but um in the last five years considerable work by jamu tarascon uh um dublay montpellier bruce oxford got seder at berkeley um will chew at stanford and shirley meng and san diego and some of the systems i've listed there uh because of time i'm going to just slip the next miss the next bit and move over to the next slide so the other area as well as the lithium rich layered is are the disordered rock salt cathodes and these were introduced with an elegant talk as always by gert seder and essentially you've got the classic rock salt structure and that rock salt structure now is occupied by um the acatine sites are a mixture of lithium transition metal ions the anion sites are occupied by oxygen fluoride for the um oxygen fluorides and for the pure oxides there might be oxygen vacancies as well so let me summarize some of the materials i think the the pioneering work somewhere is by yabuchi wang and seder on the lithium niobium oxides on the lithium vanadium oxy fluorides mentioned by christina there was uh fichner and harm stan wittingham has been looking at these and bower and fichner again more recently some other materials are the pure oxide the lithium manganese oxide by by pralong and the manganese oxy fluoride developed by rob house and peter bruce and i should note right the bottom left some really nice work on the um the manganese d zero systems so what about what is it about these systems so the capacity can be really high 250 to 320 milliamperes per gram so we're touching you know towards um a thousand in terms of what ours per gram so we're moving away from cobalt there's a limited surface oxygen loss and there's less first cycle hysteresis in many of these systems so i'm going to focus on some recent work we've been doing on the disordered roxyl oxy fluoride this has a capacity of about 280 milliamperes per gram limited surface oxygen loss and less first cycle voltage drop which you can see in the schematic on the bottom right and that's comparing it with the pink line is for a classic lithium rich layered oxide so the question really for this material is what is the manganese oxygen redox and how is the local coordination and is there o2 formation so we did some dft combined with x-ray absorption spectroscopy and rix which is resonant in elastic x-ray scattering the last result slide i realize i'm running over i'm sorry will sorry tracy um the last result slide i promise we find from rix from resonant in elastic x-ray scattering evidence of oxygen bulk oxygen in the bulk so on the left is the spectra starting from the pristine going to charged and then going to discharge so it is reversible so the o2 minus is being oxidized to o2 on charge that molecular o2 is trapped in the lattice and then the o2 is reduced on o2 on discharge this is under ultra high vacuum conditions and we've done it at different temperatures so there is no evidence of beam damage either so that's the take a message for this oxy fluoride so let me conclude i might quickly go through let me just show all of them and then because of time i could just talk through i hope i've shown you that you can look at some complex materials at the atomic scale i've talked about grain boundary effects lithium transport and proton diffusion in the proskites anti-proskites and i've talked about manganese and oxygen redox overlap and bulk o2 in the lithium rich oxy fluoride and i apologize for perhaps rushing a bit at the end in terms of the last slide is just a thanks you can look at the the names there and if you're interested in more details there there are some of the publications and the funding bodies on the right and thank you for your attention thank you cyphal thank you so much for that it was a very heavy meal i think now we have to digest a bit perhaps a cognac or brandy or whatever you drink so let's see you so sign so brandy transportation mug terrific so the first question comes from christian mescualia and he is asking what are some of the sodium containing anti-proskites such as sodium 3 obh4 can you discuss some of the opportunities for solely electrolyte for sodium using the structure yes so um well thanks christian i think well we've both been involved with looking at sodium ion conductors um early on looking at i suppose nasi-con type structures which are the most well established um in in this field um and i think there are some interesting results on the na3 ox anti-proskites they don't show as high mobility as the lithium analogs but there's some debate that christian i know about on the the bh4 type anion in there uh whether it is actually promoting um a paddle wheel or promoting high sodium ion conductivity so the simple answer is yes i think there's considerable scope to explore the um the space on the sodium oxy halide anti-proskites i don't think they've been optimized but there's a lot of work to be done thanks syphil maybe a few more questions on solely electrolytes before we move on to the electrodes so there's a question on the stability of the solely electrolytes um so you show this very nice interfacial transport at the tilted boundaries so the question concerns the stability against corrosion for example um at the potentials of the negative electrode for example can you discuss a bit on that yes i mean we haven't um specifically looked at that but the the question is absolutely right it's a very important question about i think if they're alluding to the stability particularly against lithium metal um then yes i mean it is a big challenge that there's a lot of work i know some elegant work for example by Jürgen Yannick um and um Peter Bruce looking at that i suppose degradation mechanisms and also void formation at that interface i think it is a important area because ultimately in terms of a practical solid state cell you need to deal with those um lithium interfacial issues as i said we haven't looked at that specifically ourselves but it is it is a key issue so i guess maybe building on that a bit more of that question are there indications that the grain boundaries in particular are less or more stable as a function of the misorientation against lithium for example that's a good point i mean the the mechanism of that lithium penetration into the electrolyte is an interesting area i mean whether it's dendrite formation in the classical term called dendrite so could those lithium penetrate within those grain boundary structures for example um i don't think we've we've we've seen that ourselves or whether they're penetrating into other microstructural defects within the grains which aren't grain boundaries as such but others and i know um this interesting work i think yet ming chang at MIT has been looking at that so to answer your question we're about we haven't seen any evidence from our work anyways many simulation work of lithium dendrite or penetration into the grain boundary itself but i suppose you can't exclude it either yeah i think it's going to be very interesting to think more about that maybe one last question on the fundamentals of ionic transport in the anti-porovskites so you showed this very nice picture of OH ions and lithium ions moving through the same material could you comment on the extent of correlation between the two or the rotation of the OH somehow cooperative or inhibits lithium transport oh that's a lovely question that's that's the kind of question i love uh because because of time i couldn't show you know a whole host of other slides so from both um simulation and from NMR indeed there seems to be some correlation some cooperative um motion where um the lithium hopping into those vacancies and the OH rotation in that now that lithium vacant site is correlated so there is some correlated motion between the lithium hoping hopping and the OH rotation which we find from both the ab initio md and from the um the variable temperature mass NMR so thank you for that question i would i would show you the slide but i don't have control over the slide so but there is there somewhere i don't know who asked the questions the anonymous so i'm not sure who to thank in particular so that anonymous questioner if you look at the energy environmental science paper it's all in there all right thank you sifo um so maybe this is a good uh quick segue to electrodes so still on the anti-porovskite um are there opportunities to introduce redox centers to the anti-porovskites to make them electrodes as well the simple answer is yes yeah uh in fact um one of the one of the aspects of the work in the faraday institution project that i talked about is exactly that we are looking at some iron-based anti-porovskites excellent all right so since christian had the first question he can also have the last question um how fast can lithium diffuse in the oxyfluorides in the um the um the cathode materials exactly yeah they're showing so in terms of they are disordered so in terms of the percolation you need some percolation pathways the diffusion coefficients of the order of 10 to the minus 9 centimeter squared per second so they are of the cathode rate so the rate capability and electro kinetics are good outstanding sifo so i now i feel a bit more digested um there are many more questions uh that i could not mention i'd suggest our audience please reach out to professor is on directly i'm sure he would be delighted to carry on the discussion additionally so now if i could ask christina to rejoin us for just a very quick panel discussion all right welcome christina sifo thank you now we have worked through our several courses of meal i have now the pleasure of asking you some higher level questions i think we have enjoyed listening to all the detail scientific discussions so i like to present you with the following question sifo you've been working on computational material science uh for a long time and you have demonstrated um its utility in predicting and understanding material properties and christina you've been working on advanced characterization of interfaces and such and in the battery 2030 plus there is a significant focus on how to integrate theory and experiments and i also noted uh in your talk um ai informatics and data analysis so i would like to ask a pointed question if i may okay we have done well in joining experiments in theory and data but obviously the job is far from done i was wondering first can we talk about what haven't we accomplished what are the big milestones that are still ahead of us and the second question is how do we get there so perhaps i can have sifo speak maybe from the computational side and then christina can come from the other end and hopefully we have a better roadmap on how to achieve this integration sifo oh i thought i thought christina would go first but i'll uh uh so um it's so what so the question was what haven't we achieved uh i suppose in terms of theory experiments integration oh in terms of theory i there's a lot of obviously there's a bit on the positive side there's been a lot of um integration and um synergy between computation experiments as you cite will what could we do more i suppose the areas in terms of some of the key buzzwords that are being used at the moment is that we're going to have a lot more data so there's going to be um can we achieve that kind of data mining and whether it's through machine learning tools or other tools much more rapidly uh and whether that rapid integration with high throughput synthesis high throughput experiments could be integrated so um i suppose the the pointed thing we haven't achieved we haven't achieved um an energy density that is greater than 500 milliampere hours per gram or so there are some things you know targets to get to that we would like to achieve uh i think we haven't achieved very you know really efficient um maybe maybe i'm wrong here but maybe really efficient integration of data mining with high throughput experimental experiments yet but i could be wrong and um and i could be proven um wrong by others around the globe so continue along that pointed question maybe i can ask one specific question before Christina Waisons as well i i from my point of view Seifle and you and i have worked on this um i think using theory to understand phenomena in batteries has been incredible we learned so much about mechanisms um especially when they're experimentally inaccessible but i think the other direction of that um predicting new materials purely from theoretical methods i think has not been as far along as understanding existing materials can you give us a sense of what lies ahead and and what more do we need to do to make these both directions more equal in terms of understanding by theory and also predictions by theory for new materials i think the the issue with the prediction by theory always the challenge has been that there isn't always just a single parameter to calculate so you're right um my philosophy as a materials chemistry has always been to get to deeper fundamental understanding uh i personally haven't been involved as much on the sort of um high throughput screening computational work and there's been some you know really good work out there but i think the challenge from that high throughput is because there are a number of different parameters to make a successful prediction of a really good material so it isn't just about a migration barrier or a cell voltage it could be the stability with an interface it could be grain boundaries it could be surface oxygen loss it could be predicting um certain uh formation in the bulk so there's so many different aspects that sometimes high throughput screening only looks at one or two of those parameters rather than a multitude of parameters and i think that's the challenge for the computational high throughput screen is that really it should be maybe up towards 10 parameters for every system you're looking at cyphel thank you christina well i think yeah i agree very much with cyphel and with what he has said and also what you have said will i think the predictive power with theory is coming closer i think there have been large advancements both because of the computers being much stronger but also our understanding has been much longer when it comes to high throughput experiments i think we do generate a lot of data as experimentalists but how much of them are we really using and how much of them are we actually trusting and if you look at the publications are they really based on a statistical if you have a good material and show something what you call superior remarkable and outstanding which are concepts i hate by the way because that's up to me as a reader to judge if they are or not is that the one cell out of 100 which shows really good performance or is it a true sample of 100 cells the average of that and by having a lot of data and the data mining we could do we can also learn from bad data i think a lot that can be useful and with the robotics that we're developing we might also start to be able scientists to have labs where we can screen a lot of of this matrix we need to have i agree with them cipher there and it's not just one parameter you can look at but you can try to bake it down to model systems and then increase the complex complexity of a system to look at it and i think there are embryos at different universities now building up i mentioned martin winters electrolyte robotic laboratory at university of minster is one really good example in europe and i think more is coming in that direction and i think also with the there is a great interest from the synchrotron and neutron facilities in europe to also be part of this developing there too so that you can screen a lot more of batteries that maybe have cycled for a long time to really be able to show what's happening in the beginning of of a fresh battery what's happening at the end of of this battery with different kinds of tools so it's a very exciting future i think to try to build this together in a way we haven't done before and i think i think the predictive level of of theory has made it we suggest this material from theory we test it is it possible to synthesize or not and then you go back to the table and and do some more modeling come up with something new and you don't know if you can synthesize it so if you can build a loop system in a better way and loop these things much faster by using all the data we generate i hope we can take a step forward because my my private philosophy is that yes lithium batteries lithium-ion battery will be in applications for a long time if we need to have them for transport sector we might need actually to have other battery chemistry from other applications because of the lack of raw materials etc and that means that we have to also make other batteries to work better and and come to the same level as we have for the lithium-ion batteries i'm thinking of sodium i think of redox flow we can think of the multiviral and etc and there we have other kinds of issues with the chemistries and this complexity that we have we have been talking to about this few hours now when we are met yeah certainly agree christina there's no silver bullet so to speak and the methodologies i think both of you are developing should apply to all of those problems maybe to to conclude christina i have now another pointy question for you as well you spoke about the opportunities to work or more closely between industry and academia and you specifically mentioned this data sharing industry indeed generates significantly more data than an academia but it is not open and if i just look at for example the efforts on battery cell level modeling um the number of open data set is really tiny compared to what is available out there sitting from where you are at the leadership of battery 2030 plus what are some of the key ingredients you think to get industry and academia better connected in terms of data openness and obviously has to be done on a pre-competitive basis um how do you give incentives for everybody to open up uh in order to achieve the greater goal of um um accelerating r&d and that again i apologize for being pointy here um but it would be no no it's absolutely an issue and an important question and not so easy but what we try to do in the big map project is of course to define some certain chemisties where the companies involved can actually make their model cells maybe not the ones that you have in your core business my example for the post mortem system was made by a cell producer and it was not not their uh commercial um generation so you can actually convince them that i can make some model systems and be part of the modeling algorithm learning curve and how to develop these methods because i think it's an interest there for the industry because they can use that in their own i think there are companies already that have made a big library of uh also publications and try to do mine um data mining through them so um you have to convince the companies that they think this is important and have a clear vision of what you want to do and why you are doing it and then you can actually find ways of defining the systems i have my own example with scania and all but the same table as long as not it's that core business you you sort of um try to to reveal i think you can actually find ways of working together christina i think this is a very important and admirable goal uh good luck to all of us as we try to build this um so i'd like to take this opportunity to thank christina and cypher for your excellent contributions today i neglected to mention that this is our 10th seminar uh so thank you for joining us and uh just then if i can have the next slide please perfect maybe you can introduce um an exciting development in our seminar series coming up next on september 18th yeah sounds good uh first of all let me thank christina and cypher for really excellent talks and introducing what's going on in european union and also well thank you for the invitation and the opportunity thank you again yeah thank you so much it was a great experience yeah so as we all mentioned like we have our 10th exciting symposium series starting from the next one our 11th of the event um we are going to move on to a new stage continue to have a platform like this of academia to to come out but also very exciting we want to engage industry like the in the panel discussion we have um so the first one we are going to launch that on september 18 right that's our next event we understand many places on vacation so what we'll give people a little bit of break so next event is september 18 also friday the same time we are going to have industry leaders to uh come in to present the first panel that's on silicon anode amplification uh dr kang san is who is the ceo of amperes taking silicon nanowire anode technology and silicon graphite mixture to the product stage jim kosh and who is the manager of applied materials will also present a new exciting thin lithium foil for lithium metal anode as well as for privetiation and sanji kuma ceo of zine labs will also talk about silicon anode we look forward to the engagement of industry uh uh with academia with national lab and i'm sure there will be investors also showing up as well to listen to these talks thank you very much all for you and europe and asia now staying late um we'll see you next time